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Post by trickydicky73 on Jan 7, 2014 1:26:08 GMT
I have the same opinion mate but you get called a racist on here for having such thoughts. I am guessing that the chant could have been "your just a town full of p####" If this was the chant is it really that bad? Not saying it's right by the way before someone jumps down my throat. Yes it is that bad you moron. It is meant as an insult, so how do you think the Asian community in Leicester would react to it? By beheading him? It is Stafford, after all!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 2:11:35 GMT
It's OK to say the word nigger as long as you say 'sup' beforehand & 'ya get me' afterwords.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 7:53:07 GMT
I love it when the Oatcake comes together to analyse the big issues.
In 2014, why anyone can still be unclear on what racism actually is, must only be seen as an indication of a learning difficulty or a deep-seated inability to actually comprehend the value of a non-racist mindset to society. Once we accept this value as positive, we can then impose self-control. Most people get this.
However, for some it obviously presents a challenge to actually see the real benefits in dropping the even mildly racist mind-set. This is clearly illustrated by some of the comments and typical boundary explorations we are seeing in the thread. You can't play around with this stuff and you're really foolish to do so. Words can be incredibly damaging, you only have to look at the staff nurse who sadly committed suicide in the recent Royal birth. On the one side, it was just a bit of a laugh.
"It's no different to being called a Taff or a Honky" "It's gone too far the other way" "My mate at school was called Chocco, he was fine with it"
How can you get too far away from racism? I don't think we can just keep a little bit back for when we need it can we? Too far in the other direction surely means that a more thoughtful approach to anothers feelings within a public situation will ensue. Why are some people prepared to argue that a little bit is OK? You're still going to get the banter and piss-take between friends. Nobody is telling anybody how to think, it's all about the behaviour we display publicly.
Of course racism is wrong, it hurts people. Why would anyone of sound mind want to hurt another person? It is this thought that is failing to gain a foothold within a tiny minority at the Brit. I suspect this is partly due to the cheap vicarious thrill that can be had by such "anti-social" behaviour, but mainly due to sustained pre-conditioning from family and peer groups as youngsters. Nobody is born a racist and even if they were the trait is something that is fairly undesirable once the larger issues are understood.
I think it comes down to something like this. Gaining control of our own behaviour, in relation to racism, is obviously easier for some than for others. So, the last thing anyone who understands the benefits of a non-racist society should probably ever do is to use similarly strong and derogatory language against the folks that struggle with the concept?
Surely, it's much better to point it out discreetly a little later, ask them what they may be struggling with, if they need guidance in relation to the benefits of non-racist or antagonistic behaviour in public? Taking these people to task by a similar public outburst and discussing matters on the forum can only serve to further disconnect them as individuals, further entrench the beliefs that are manifest in their existing behavior and pigeonhole them. I think we have to help people with the issue, if they can accept help, not point the finger, because none of us think in the same way.
Personally, i've always found the practical aspect fairly straightforward. For me, it's about carefully choosing the words I use in public, in my family and within my social groups. It's about having respect for each other and also for taking responsibility as an adult relating to the impressionable young minds around us. Ultimately it's about not hurting one another, rather than being antagonistic or provocative. But I don't always get it right, nobody does. In fact sometimes I fuck it up big time, especially when too many beers are involved or i'm tired, hungry etc.
But just to get the basics, for some people, i'm sure requires a bit of effort. This is particularly true if your parents or grandparents were racist, homophobic, bigoted etc. In my case my parents followed a reasonable code, but my Dad could spout off occasionally, and my Grandad was the worst racist and bigot I ever met. However, these older generations had an excuse, nobody had actually figured out that some folks could be quite hurt (or even oppressed) by the words that were in common use back then.
I think to permanently get rid of these anachronistic behaviors, we have to all help the individuals who don't see the benefits as clearly as some do. And we need to do this through encouragement, positive engagement and mentoring if need be. Shaming and labeling somebody is essentially re-inforcing the racist mindset. Isn't it?
However, it's worth noting that everything we say or write on here is noted by the authorities nowadays. So if you are exhibiting racist tendencies or sympathies or even a demonstrable lack of understanding, it's already on your file. And none of us yet know how that info could affect us 10 to 20 years from now, but our governments are not collecting this data simply because they can. It's important that we drop racism for the good of everyone and now particularly ourselves. It's criminal behaviour and it's really not worth any Stokie playing around with it.
As my old man used to say, it's nice to be nice.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 8:19:02 GMT
I love it when the Oatcake comes together to analyse the big issues. In 2014, why anyone can still be unclear on what racism actually is, must only be seen as an indication of a learning difficulty or a deep-seated inability to actually comprehend the value of a non-racist mindset to society. Once we accept this value as positive, we can then impose self-control. Most people get this. However, for some it must present a challenge to actually see any benefit in dropping the racist mind-set. This is clearly illustrated by some of the comments and typical boundary explorations we are seeing in the thread. "It's no different to being called a Taff or a Honky" "It's gone too far the other way" "My mate at school was called Chocco, he was fine with it" How can you get too far away from racism? I don't think we can just keep a little bit back for when we need it can we? Too far in the other direction surely means that a more thoughtful approach to anothers feelings within a public situation will ensue. Why are some people prepared to argue that a little bit is OK? You're still going to get the banter and piss-take between friends. Nobody is telling anybody how to think, it's all about the behaviour we display publicly. Of course racism is wrong, it hurts people. Why would anyone of sound mind want to hurt another person? It is this thought that is failing to gain a foothold and I suspect this is mainly due to sustained pre-conditioning from family and peer groups as youngsters. It comes down to this. Gaining control of our own behaviour, in relation to racism is obviously easier for some than others. So, the last thing anyone who gets the benefits should probably do is to use strong and derogatory language against these folks. Surely, it's much better to point it out discreetly a little later and asking them what they struggle with and the the benefits attributable in non-racist or antagonistic behaviour in public? Taking these people to task by a similar public outburst will only serve to further entrench the beliefs that manifest in their existing behavior. I think we have to help people with the issue. I've always found the practical code really simple. For me, it's about carefully choosing the words I use in public, in my family and within my social groups. It's about having respect for each other and also for taking responsibility as an adult relating to the impressionable young minds around us. Ultimately it's about not hurting one another, rather than being antagonistic or provocative. But I don't always get it right, nobody does. In fact sometimes I fuck it up big time. But just to get the basics, for some people, requires a bit of effort. This is particularly true if your parents or grandparents were racist, homophobic, bigoted etc. In my case my parents followed a reasonable code, my Dad could spout off occasionally, and my Grandad was awfully racist. However, these older generations had an excuse; nobody had actually figured out that some folks could be quite hurt or even oppressed by the words that were in common use back then. I think to permanently get rid of these anachronistic behaviors, we have to all help the individuals who don't see the benefits. And we need to do this through encouragement, positive engagement and mentoring if need be. Shaming and labeling somebody is essentially re-inforcing the racist mindset. Isn't it? However, everything we say or write on here is noted by the authorities in any case. So if you are exhibiting racist sympathies or a demonstrable lack of understanding, it's already on your file. And none of us yet know how that could affect us 10 to 20 years from now, but they're not collecting this data simply because they can. It's important that we drop racism for the good of everyone and that will very soon include ourselves. As my old man used to say, it's nice to be nice. So be warned BIG BROTHER is watching, the authorities ARE monitoring this forum
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 9:02:00 GMT
They're watching everything. They're not watching the Oatcake, that's the platform. They don't have a big file called "The Oatcake" because thats the thing that allows everyone a relatively free reign to express their personal views. They have lots of smaller files called "ST9potter", "**************" and "StaffordStokie". They are watching you my friend. And also recording what you contribute to any social media site. Whether it's the Oatcake, Twitter, FB, Google+, etc, etc. So it's probably a good idea to bear that in mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 9:59:00 GMT
And, I must say that dumping this big poo of a thread onto the Everything Else board is a bit much. However, i've spoken to Bish and he says that it's OK this time as long as you can behave yourselves in a calm and dignified manner, and also do something about your spelling.
As usual the EE boys handle the stuff that nobody else can deal with.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 11:09:45 GMT
Agree entirely on your post **************. It's not too much to slightly adjust the words you use, even if they were considered acceptable or otherwise 30 years ago. Is it honestly too much for people to just go to 'the shop' for example?
Unfortunately, it seems to be beyond the abilities of some to see that the words they use, in the context they do, can and have predominantly been used for hurtful reasons regardless of the few examples where it is used 'in defence' or otherwise; regardless of what your nan used to call the shop on the corner; regardless of what your mate at school says as those isolated examples are the tiniest speck compared to the persecution suffered and caused under such names.
For as much as some want to say 'I should be able to call somebody a Paki in a non-offensive manner'...why? Why even feel the need to mention nationality? (assuming that people know the difference between those of Pakistani, Indian, Sri Lankan etc origin in the first place; a good example being that I asked my housemate how offended he would be if somebody, even 'jokingly' called him a Paki. his response was that he'd be incredibly offended, on the basis that he's Indian!).
In fact, that those people refer to things that were 'acceptable' 30 years ago, just shows that their mentality/ignorance still remains an entire generation in the past; pretending somehow that a handful of people they know from their isolated little bubbles are somehow reflective and standard of an entire group of people.
It is nice to be nice, fully agreed, and it isn't even that hard to do either!
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peadar87
Academy Starlet
Stoke City and Bray Wanderers. Because one relegation battle a season just isn't enough!
Posts: 206
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Post by peadar87 on Jan 7, 2014 11:11:51 GMT
As the vast majority of first-generation immigrants do. They don't just let any randomer move over to the UK, give them a council house and start throwing money at them! I wonder how these immigrants/randomers manage to pay their rent for the social housing we don't provide when they are not working when they arrive in the UK, I have worked in the welfare to work sector and I can guarantee you it is going on. www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/characteristics-and-outcomes-migrants-uk-labour-marketAccording to the University of Oxford, well under 15% of foreign-born UK residents is unemployed. There are 7 million foreign-born people here legally, so even if there are 1 million illegal immigrants in the UK, and not a single one of them is working (extremely unlikely!), the rate is still less than 25%. Also of interest is the fact that immigrants are, on average, paid more than UK workers, which means that they are working in higher-skilled jobs that add more value to the economy, and also contribute more in tax.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 11:17:14 GMT
They're watching everything. They're not watching the Oatcake, that's the platform. They don't have a big file called "The Oatcake" because thats the thing that allows everyone a relatively free reign to express their personal views. They have lots of smaller files called "ST9potter", "**************" and "StaffordStokie". They are watching you my friend. And also recording what you contribute to any social media site. Whether it's the Oatcake, Twitter, FB, Google+, etc, etc. So it's probably a good idea to bear that in mind. Wow scary stuff, freedom of speech the right to express an opinion , not really any radical stuff from myself, I personally do not use Twitter , FB, ect. I will however bear your warning in mind and refrain from posting on this site from now on, as for my spelling I did not realise this could cause other posters any harm or upset I apologise unreservedly for any upset I may have caused other posters , others who post on here may be wise to take your advice and also refrain from participating on this forum. .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 11:41:01 GMT
I wonder how these immigrants/randomers manage to pay their rent for the social housing we don't provide when they are not working when they arrive in the UK, I have worked in the welfare to work sector and I can guarantee you it is going on. www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/characteristics-and-outcomes-migrants-uk-labour-marketAccording to the University of Oxford, well under 15% of foreign-born UK residents is unemployed. There are 7 million foreign-born people here legally, so even if there are 1 million illegal immigrants in the UK, and not a single one of them is working (extremely unlikely!), the rate is still less than 25%. Also of interest is the fact that immigrants are, on average, paid more than UK workers, which means that they are working in higher-skilled jobs that add more value to the economy, and also contribute more in tax. 5.7% of those of non-UK nationals of working age within the first 6 months after registration of a National Insurance Number. Of those, 4.9% claim job-seekers allowance under the sames rules and requirements as any other person. Of those 5.7%, some will have benefits stopped and find jobs (based on 2011/12 figures). Of course, without a NINo, you can't claim employment related benefits. This compares to approximately 16% of the 34 million UK nationals of working age who claim employment related benefits. But of course, none of the above actually counts because stafford knows 4 families and st9 worked in the welfare sector. That counts far more than actual figures, especially those that do not agree with UKIP and the Daily Mail (and Express are as bad for it too). Though going from my own personal circumstances (and without having to verify them first with st9 to check that I have 'relevant' knowledge or experience to express an opinion) far less than 5% of the non-UK nationals I know are currently out of work and claiming employment related benefits.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jan 7, 2014 12:02:29 GMT
www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/characteristics-and-outcomes-migrants-uk-labour-marketAccording to the University of Oxford, well under 15% of foreign-born UK residents is unemployed. There are 7 million foreign-born people here legally, so even if there are 1 million illegal immigrants in the UK, and not a single one of them is working (extremely unlikely!), the rate is still less than 25%. Also of interest is the fact that immigrants are, on average, paid more than UK workers, which means that they are working in higher-skilled jobs that add more value to the economy, and also contribute more in tax. 5.7% of those of non-UK nationals of working age within the first 6 months after registration of a National Insurance Number. Of those, 4.9% claim job-seekers allowance under the sames rules and requirements as any other person. Of those 5.7%, some will have benefits stopped and find jobs (based on 2011/12 figures). Of course, without a NINo, you can't claim employment related benefits. This compares to approximately 16% of the 34 million UK nationals of working age who claim employment related benefits. But of course, none of the above actually counts because stafford knows 4 families and st9 worked in the welfare sector. That counts far more than actual figures, especially those that do not agree with UKIP and the Daily Mail (and Express are as bad for it too). Though going from my own personal circumstances (and without having to verify them first with st9 to check that I have 'relevant' knowledge or experience to express an opinion) less than 5% of the non-UK nationals I know are currently out of work and claiming employment related benefits. I only go on personal experience and don't really care a fuck about stats. Get out of Europe and send the fuckers back to Eastern Europe for me. Just my opinion though, or is it?
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peadar87
Academy Starlet
Stoke City and Bray Wanderers. Because one relegation battle a season just isn't enough!
Posts: 206
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Post by peadar87 on Jan 7, 2014 12:17:49 GMT
5.7% of those of non-UK nationals of working age within the first 6 months after registration of a National Insurance Number. Of those, 4.9% claim job-seekers allowance under the sames rules and requirements as any other person. Of those 5.7%, some will have benefits stopped and find jobs (based on 2011/12 figures). Of course, without a NINo, you can't claim employment related benefits. This compares to approximately 16% of the 34 million UK nationals of working age who claim employment related benefits. But of course, none of the above actually counts because stafford knows 4 families and st9 worked in the welfare sector. That counts far more than actual figures, especially those that do not agree with UKIP and the Daily Mail (and Express are as bad for it too). Though going from my own personal circumstances (and without having to verify them first with st9 to check that I have 'relevant' knowledge or experience to express an opinion) less than 5% of the non-UK nationals I know are currently out of work and claiming employment related benefits. I only go on personal experience and don't really care a fuck about stats. Get out of Europe and send the fuckers back to Eastern Europe for me. Just my opinion though, or is it? If it disagrees with reality, then, yes, it is just your opinion. And it's not a particularly great one.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jan 7, 2014 12:20:37 GMT
I only go on personal experience and don't really care a fuck about stats. Get out of Europe and send the fuckers back to Eastern Europe for me. Just my opinion though, or is it? If it disagrees with reality, then, yes, it is just your opinion. And it's not a particularly great one. But it doesn't disagree with reality. It is there for those that want to see and the government know it. That is why they won't give us the in/out vote. Because they know the answer and they are shit scared of it.
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peadar87
Academy Starlet
Stoke City and Bray Wanderers. Because one relegation battle a season just isn't enough!
Posts: 206
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Post by peadar87 on Jan 7, 2014 12:33:45 GMT
If it disagrees with reality, then, yes, it is just your opinion. And it's not a particularly great one. But it doesn't disagree with reality. It is there for those that want to see and the government know it. That is why they won't give us the in/out vote. Because they know the answer and they are shit scared of it. Ignoring the statistics about migrants totally disagrees with reality. Leaving the EU, plenty of people would agree with you, plenty of others wouldn't "Sending the fuckers back home" would cripple the UK economy, and would be a dick move of the highest order.
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Post by skip on Jan 7, 2014 13:10:53 GMT
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Post by chr15 on Jan 7, 2014 13:28:21 GMT
I've heard it said that the UK needs immigrants to support it's growing "Chav" culture. Controversial, but I would not be surprised if there is some truth to it.
I've also read with interest the plans being discussed to target welfare in an effort to acheive £25bn more cuts. Let's see who complains, the incoming immigrants who many accuse of coming here for benefits or the British citizens who are able to work but prefer to live off the taxpayer instead.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 13:33:46 GMT
5.7% of those of non-UK nationals of working age within the first 6 months after registration of a National Insurance Number. Of those, 4.9% claim job-seekers allowance under the sames rules and requirements as any other person. Of those 5.7%, some will have benefits stopped and find jobs (based on 2011/12 figures). Of course, without a NINo, you can't claim employment related benefits. This compares to approximately 16% of the 34 million UK nationals of working age who claim employment related benefits. But of course, none of the above actually counts because stafford knows 4 families and st9 worked in the welfare sector. That counts far more than actual figures, especially those that do not agree with UKIP and the Daily Mail (and Express are as bad for it too). Though going from my own personal circumstances (and without having to verify them first with st9 to check that I have 'relevant' knowledge or experience to express an opinion) less than 5% of the non-UK nationals I know are currently out of work and claiming employment related benefits. I only go on personal experience and don't really care a fuck about stats. Get out of Europe and send the fuckers back to Eastern Europe for me. Just my opinion though, or is it? Exactly, don't really care about what is actually the situation across the whole country, and basing it only on 4 families that you know. Out of interest, how many do you know that don't do that? How many do you know that have jobs and support their family and don't take any benefit at all? How many british nationals do you know who do the same? Would you send all non-UK nationals, regardless of absolutely anything, back to Eastern Europe? What about Brits living abroad...it'd only be fair to repatriate them too in such a move. Here's my experience... My fiancee is a non-UK (and non-EU) national. She still lives in her country of birth whilst I build up the resources to support her temporarily when she does move. During this time, she is also making contacts and getting consulting work where she lives so that, hopefully in May, she can come over and at least also be earning whilst she is here. We are also making a number of speculative job applications and arranging for interviews for companies in London so, even better, she can start a job straight away. We have no desire to request for any support at all from the state, nor expect anybody else to pay anything towards our keep. In my professional career, I have worked with dozens of office based non-UK nationals and hundreds of site based non-UK nationals - all ofe which have come to UK to work and pay their own way, without claiming anything from the state. My current housemate is Indian, cannot claim anything from the state AT ALL, and works two jobs over 7 days a week to support his family in India. Every 2 years, he has to reapply for a work visa costing £1,500. I live in an area which has a sizable Indian and Sri Lankan community, and an Eastern European community, the vast majority of which work and pay their way. My tenant in the property I own up norf is rented to a Lithuainian couple, who saved up £15,000 over many years before making their move to the UK to support them for enough time to find jobs. They both work 12 hours a day, 5 days a week so that they can save some money and support family back home. Their standard hours are 8 hours per day, but plenty of overtime available because the company they work for can't get enough staff despite constantly advertising and paying about 20% more than other local competitors doing the same work. At the same time, out the 35/40 responses I had to putting my house up for rent, I didn't receive one enquiry from non-UK nationals who asked if I accepted DSS (which I would have done because I have absolutely nothing against people in those circumstances). Yet, over the near 30 UK nationals who got in touch with me, over 2/3rds of them did ask if I accepted DSS - unfortunately they 'couldn't find a job'. My tenants have always paid their rent days before its due, because they appreciate that I have to pay my mortgage 2 weeks before so it at least helps to plug the gap a little. I am personally aware of one non-UK national who is here with his family and who doesn't have a job. However, instead of claiming from the government, he's using the money that he's saved over the last 12 years of working here to support him, and next month is relocating to Birmingham to his new job. Absolutely every single word of that is the complete truth, and would appear to suggest that my experience of non-UK nationals is somewhat reflective of the figures that are put forward from the non-knicker-wetting parts findings. I don't expect nor want you or anybody else to give a flying fuck about my experience and what I know - especially you. But don't try and tell me that those 4 families you know are somewhat reflective on the nationwide issue and that they should all fuck off as I'd far prefer one single of any of the above than one thousand of your ilk (my opinion, of course). That doesn't come down to their nationality, it comes down to basic fundamentals of respect, dignity and willingness to operate and cooperate in a fair society.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jan 7, 2014 14:19:26 GMT
I only go on personal experience and don't really care a fuck about stats. Get out of Europe and send the fuckers back to Eastern Europe for me. Just my opinion though, or is it? Exactly, don't really care about what is actually the situation across the whole country, and basing it only on 4 families that you know. Out of interest, how many do you know that don't do that? How many do you know that have jobs and support their family and don't take any benefit at all? How many british nationals do you know who do the same? Would you send all non-UK nationals, regardless of absolutely anything, back to Eastern Europe? What about Brits living abroad...it'd only be fair to repatriate them too in such a move. Here's my experience... My fiancee is a non-UK (and non-EU) national. She still lives in her country of birth whilst I build up the resources to support her temporarily when she does move. During this time, she is also making contacts and getting consulting work where she lives so that, hopefully in May, she can come over and at least also be earning whilst she is here. We are also making a number of speculative job applications and arranging for interviews for companies in London so, even better, she can start a job straight away. We have no desire to request for any support at all from the state, nor expect anybody else to pay anything towards our keep. In my professional career, I have worked with dozens of office based non-UK nationals and hundreds of site based non-UK nationals - all ofe which have come to UK to work and pay their own way, without claiming anything from the state. My current housemate is Indian, cannot claim anything from the state AT ALL, and works two jobs over 7 days a week to support his family in India. Every 2 years, he has to reapply for a work visa costing £1,500. I live in an area which has a sizable Indian and Sri Lankan community, and an Eastern European community, the vast majority of which work and pay their way. My tenant in the property I own up norf is rented to a Lithuainian couple, who saved up £15,000 over many years before making their move to the UK to support them for enough time to find jobs. They both work 12 hours a day, 5 days a week so that they can save some money and support family back home. Their standard hours are 8 hours per day, but plenty of overtime available because the company they work for can't get enough staff despite constantly advertising and paying about 20% more than other local competitors doing the same work. At the same time, out the 35/40 responses I had to putting my house up for rent, I didn't receive one enquiry from non-UK nationals who asked if I accepted DSS (which I would have done because I have absolutely nothing against people in those circumstances). Yet, over the near 30 UK nationals who got in touch with me, over 2/3rds of them did ask if I accepted DSS - unfortunately they 'couldn't find a job'. My tenants have always paid their rent days before its due, because they appreciate that I have to pay my mortgage 2 weeks before so it at least helps to plug the gap a little. I am personally aware of one non-UK national who is here with his family and who doesn't have a job. However, instead of claiming from the government, he's using the money that he's saved over the last 12 years of working here to support him, and next month is relocating to Birmingham to his new job. Absolutely every single word of that is the complete truth, and would appear to suggest that my experience of non-UK nationals is somewhat reflective of the figures that are put forward from the non-knicker-wetting parts findings. I don't expect nor want you or anybody else to give a flying fuck about my experience and what I know - especially you. But don't try and tell me that those 4 families you know are somewhat reflective on the nationwide issue and that they should all fuck off as I'd far prefer one single of any of the above than one thousand of your ilk (my opinion, of course). That doesn't come down to their nationality, it comes down to basic fundamentals of respect, dignity and willingness to operate and cooperate in a fair society. Each to their own.
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 7, 2014 18:14:54 GMT
I only go on personal experience and don't really care a fuck about stats. Get out of Europe and send the fuckers back to Eastern Europe for me. Just my opinion though, or is it? I doubt you are the only person who thinks like this. But what about the folks from the West Indies who came here in the 50's and 60's and the Ugandan Asians from the 70's or the Jews from the 20's and 30's. There are quite a few folks from down under here as well as plenty of people from Western Europe. Oh, and don't forget the Irish! Stiff Little Fingers were thinking of folks like you when they wrote this song - it ain't a complement.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jan 7, 2014 18:34:42 GMT
I only go on personal experience and don't really care a fuck about stats. Get out of Europe and send the fuckers back to Eastern Europe for me. Just my opinion though, or is it? I doubt you are the only person who thinks like this. But what about the folks from the West Indies who came here in the 50's and 60's and the Ugandan Asians from the 70's or the Jews from the 20's and 30's. There are quite a few folks from down under here as well as plenty of people from Western Europe. Oh, and don't forget the Irish! Stiff Little Fingers were thinking of folks like you when they wrote this song - it ain't a complement. Mate I really can't be arsed to argue Stanground so just gave the short answer. I see it all the time where poles etc come over and either don't work or work and send the cash back to Poland. One lad at our place even claims for a mrs and 3 kids that are still in Poland. Obviously not all but a lot that I see. I agree that immigration is a good thing but it should be limited to people that we need much like the Aussies do. The problem we have is that with all these eastern Europeans coming in it just pushes wages down and dodgy firms abuse it. I know all about the minimum wage but there is always ways around it. Where I used to work a lot of the workers were supplied by an agency. These people were told that if they wanted work they had to sign to say they would work for minimum wage and that it wouldn't go up after the 3 ? months as it should.On top of this most lived in private houses which were owned by the same people that owned the agency. Finally they were bused in by minibus from Crewe and charged £5 a day. Guess who owned the minibus? In Stafford there is an estate where 3 streets are occupied by 90% immigrants. This council housing should go to people who were born here. Add to that the stress it all puts on public services and this country is fucked. I don't care what shit they have come here to get away from, charity begins at home and it is time we had our home back!
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Post by fortressbritannia on Jan 7, 2014 20:09:41 GMT
In my eyes there are workers and non-workers.
Something happened to me at work which is particularly applicable to this thread. I work at the post office, so I deal with benefit claimants on a daily basis. Today one women came in, complaining about her money she was having it cut. I mentioned that I heard that there was some jobs going at Asda, her response that she wouldn't get out of bed to stack shelves for minimum wage. I replied to her that a job is a job and despite having a degree I'm working for minimum wage but it doesn't mean I'll be on it for the rest of the year, let alone the rest of my life. She then went on about what chance she's got against graduates, by which time I switched off. But what gathered was that she had absolutely no intention of working hard to get a job (and work up the ladder) or to gain any additional qualifications. Equally I deal with immigrants who have no intention of working either.
But we shouldn't be supporting any of them regardless of nationality. Support yourself and then the state should be there to support you if you fall.
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 7, 2014 20:19:52 GMT
I doubt you are the only person who thinks like this. But what about the folks from the West Indies who came here in the 50's and 60's and the Ugandan Asians from the 70's or the Jews from the 20's and 30's. There are quite a few folks from down under here as well as plenty of people from Western Europe. Oh, and don't forget the Irish! Stiff Little Fingers were thinking of folks like you when they wrote this song - it ain't a complement. Mate I really can't be arsed to argue Stanground so just gave the short answer. I see it all the time where poles etc come over and either don't work or work and send the cash back to Poland. One lad at our place even claims for a mrs and 3 kids that are still in Poland. Obviously not all but a lot that I see. I agree that immigration is a good thing but it should be limited to people that we need much like the Aussies do. The problem we have is that with all these eastern Europeans coming in it just pushes wages down and dodgy firms abuse it. I know all about the minimum wage but there is always ways around it. Where I used to work a lot of the workers were supplied by an agency. These people were told that if they wanted work they had to sign to say they would work for minimum wage and that it wouldn't go up after the 3 ? months as it should.On top of this most lived in private houses which were owned by the same people that owned the agency. Finally they were bused in by minibus from Crewe and charged £5 a day. Guess who owned the minibus? In Stafford there is an estate where 3 streets are occupied by 90% immigrants. This council housing should go to people who were born here. Add to that the stress it all puts on public services and this country is fucked. I don't care what shit they have come here to get away from, charity begins at home and it is time we had our home back! Understood - but what you are describing is the usual way immigration always works. Most immigrants have arrived with nothing, live in the poorest areas and work for the lowest wages; you can even map it by looking over time at which nationalities have lived in the East Ends of major industrial cities. Your concerns were expressed then as now. - all that changes is the nationality of the latest immigrant group. But, taken as a whole, immigration is a positive for the country. This country is the richer for the aforementioned West Indians, Asians etc.. But that ain't to say there aren't issues - but the solution isn't to send them all home!
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jan 7, 2014 20:37:41 GMT
Mate I really can't be arsed to argue Stanground so just gave the short answer. I see it all the time where poles etc come over and either don't work or work and send the cash back to Poland. One lad at our place even claims for a mrs and 3 kids that are still in Poland. Obviously not all but a lot that I see. I agree that immigration is a good thing but it should be limited to people that we need much like the Aussies do. The problem we have is that with all these eastern Europeans coming in it just pushes wages down and dodgy firms abuse it. I know all about the minimum wage but there is always ways around it. Where I used to work a lot of the workers were supplied by an agency. These people were told that if they wanted work they had to sign to say they would work for minimum wage and that it wouldn't go up after the 3 ? months as it should.On top of this most lived in private houses which were owned by the same people that owned the agency. Finally they were bused in by minibus from Crewe and charged £5 a day. Guess who owned the minibus? In Stafford there is an estate where 3 streets are occupied by 90% immigrants. This council housing should go to people who were born here. Add to that the stress it all puts on public services and this country is fucked. I don't care what shit they have come here to get away from, charity begins at home and it is time we had our home back! Understood - but what you are describing is the usual way immigration always works. Most immigrants have arrived with nothing, live in the poorest areas and work for the lowest wages; you can even map it by looking over time at which nationalities have lived in the East Ends of major industrial cities. Your concerns were expressed then as now. - all that changes is the nationality of the latest immigrant group. But, taken as a whole, immigration is a positive for the country. This country is the richer for the aforementioned West Indians, Asians etc.. But that ain't to say there aren't issues - but the solution isn't to send them all home! The main difference being that when the west Indians and Asians came over we had jobs a plenty. A lot of the west Indians came to work in the health service and helped make it what it is today. As for the Asians, well to generalise they are very hard working people. Growing up you didn't see many Asians etc not working. At this moment in time we don't have plenty of jobs and the public services are at breaking point. I am not sure on the facts but I heard today that an eastern European coming here and getting a job pays tax equivelent to that of the county they have come from. I have no idea if this is true or not but it would just be another kick in the nads for us if it is.
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Post by scarlet on Jan 7, 2014 21:41:36 GMT
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jan 7, 2014 21:50:24 GMT
Cheers. Like I said I didn't know if it was or not.
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Post by heavysoul on Jan 7, 2014 21:50:56 GMT
After the war members of common wealth were 'lured' to England with a promise of the jobs they were qualified for. The migrant works were then used to do the jobs English people wouldn't do. For example doctors cleaning toilets etc. these people were seen as second rate citizens.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 22:09:11 GMT
They're watching everything. They're not watching the Oatcake, that's the platform. They don't have a big file called "The Oatcake" because thats the thing that allows everyone a relatively free reign to express their personal views. They have lots of smaller files called "ST9potter", "**************" and "StaffordStokie". They are watching you my friend. And also recording what you contribute to any social media site. Whether it's the Oatcake, Twitter, FB, Google+, etc, etc. So it's probably a good idea to bear that in mind. Wow scary stuff, freedom of speech the right to express an opinion , not really any radical stuff from myself, I personally do not use Twitter , FB, ect. I will however bear your warning in mind and refrain from posting on this site from now on, as for my spelling I did not realise this could cause other posters any harm or upset I apologise unreservedly for any upset I may have caused other posters , others who post on here may be wise to take your advice and also refrain from participating on this forum. . Just to be clear, i'm not issuing a warning, and you're obviously having difficulty reading if "advising people to refrain from posting on this forum" is your takeaway. So let's get this crystal clear before you decide to take a hammer to your laptop. The monitoring of all computers is a FACT The monitoring has NOTHING to do with The Oatcake The monitoring is a GOVERNMENT system The monitoring tracks your computers UNIQUE NUMBER CODE contained within network data No tracking OF THIS TYPE comes from The Oatcake This means that others who post on here are absolutely safe, as are you. There is absolutely no need for anybody to refrain from posting because of what you have mistakenly stated. And I haven't got a clue about your spelling comments. And please try to read what is actually being said before you suggest to people that they should stop posting.
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 7, 2014 22:27:13 GMT
Understood - but what you are describing is the usual way immigration always works. Most immigrants have arrived with nothing, live in the poorest areas and work for the lowest wages; you can even map it by looking over time at which nationalities have lived in the East Ends of major industrial cities. Your concerns were expressed then as now. - all that changes is the nationality of the latest immigrant group. But, taken as a whole, immigration is a positive for the country. This country is the richer for the aforementioned West Indians, Asians etc.. But that ain't to say there aren't issues - but the solution isn't to send them all home! The main difference being that when the west Indians and Asians came over we had jobs a plenty. A lot of the west Indians came to work in the health service and helped make it what it is today. As for the Asians, well to generalise they are very hard working people. Growing up you didn't see many Asians etc not working. At this moment in time we don't have plenty of jobs and the public services are at breaking point. I am not sure on the facts but I heard today that an eastern European coming here and getting a job pays tax equivelent to that of the county they have come from. I have no idea if this is true or not but it would just be another kick in the nads for us if it is. Agree in part - that is how the immigration of the 50's, 60's and 70's look today. But that isn't how it was viewed at the time with newspapers very happy to stir up racial tensions with the very same arguments you see today; distorting facts, playing on fears and prejudices etc. Check out the lyrics of the aforementioned White Noise if you want proof. When the next wave of immigrants happens, folk will have the same concerns and look back at the halcyon days of East European migrants. So let's touch base in 2024 and see how immigrants from Turkey, on their accession to the EU, are welcomed.
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 7, 2014 22:32:45 GMT
Wow scary stuff, freedom of speech the right to express an opinion , not really any radical stuff from myself, I personally do not use Twitter , FB, ect. I will however bear your warning in mind and refrain from posting on this site from now on, as for my spelling I did not realise this could cause other posters any harm or upset I apologise unreservedly for any upset I may have caused other posters , others who post on here may be wise to take your advice and also refrain from participating on this forum. . Just to be clear, i'm not issuing a warning, and you're obviously having difficulty reading if "advising people to refrain from posting on this forum" is your takeaway. So let's get this crystal clear before you decide to take a hammer to your laptop. The monitoring of all computers is a FACT The monitoring has NOTHING to do with The Oatcake The monitoring is a GOVERNMENT system The monitoring tracks your computers UNIQUE NUMBER CODE contained within network data No tracking OF THIS TYPE comes from The Oatcake This means that others who post on here are absolutely safe, as are you. There is absolutely no need for anybody to refrain from posting because of what you have mistakenly stated. And I haven't got a clue about your spelling comments. And please try to read what is actually being said before you suggest to people that they should stop posting. This then seems so appropriate on this thread on a football message board!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:08:01 GMT
I doubt you are the only person who thinks like this. But what about the folks from the West Indies who came here in the 50's and 60's and the Ugandan Asians from the 70's or the Jews from the 20's and 30's. There are quite a few folks from down under here as well as plenty of people from Western Europe. Oh, and don't forget the Irish! Stiff Little Fingers were thinking of folks like you when they wrote this song - it ain't a complement. Mate I really can't be arsed to argue Stanground so just gave the short answer. I see it all the time where poles etc come over and either don't work or work and send the cash back to Poland. One lad at our place even claims for a mrs and 3 kids that are still in Poland. Obviously not all but a lot that I see. I agree that immigration is a good thing but it should be limited to people that we need much like the Aussies do. The problem we have is that with all these eastern Europeans coming in it just pushes wages down and dodgy firms abuse it. I know all about the minimum wage but there is always ways around it. Where I used to work a lot of the workers were supplied by an agency. These people were told that if they wanted work they had to sign to say they would work for minimum wage and that it wouldn't go up after the 3 ? months as it should.On top of this most lived in private houses which were owned by the same people that owned the agency. Finally they were bused in by minibus from Crewe and charged £5 a day. Guess who owned the minibus? In Stafford there is an estate where 3 streets are occupied by 90% immigrants. This council housing should go to people who were born here. Add to that the stress it all puts on public services and this country is fucked. I don't care what shit they have come here to get away from, charity begins at home and it is time we had our home back! Stafford, can you please clarify exactly what points you cant be arsed to argue with me about? As far as I can see, the only points I've put up that you could possibly argue against are: 1) the statistics that I've put up - which are statistics and I can give you the link to those if you so wish to look at yourself (though you admitted yourself that you dont give a fuck about statistics so I doubt it is that); 2) my own personal circumstances - you told us yours on which you base your opinion of and I told you mine which are completely contrasting of yours' 3) my own personal opinion that i've formed so far that i'd far prefer to know people of open minds and mutual respect than the opinion which I've been able to form from your posts, with regards to sending all the 'fuckers back to eastern europe'. So, if you want a link to the figures I've used, then please say and I'd be delighted to offer them to you. If you're arguing my own personal circumstances, then..well..I'm not even going to dignify that with a response, but you're more than welcome, ANY time you want, to come and meet the people I know and share my life with. Say the words, send me a PM, whatever you want - I'm absolutely delighted with my life, i've got nothing to hide - I've also got nothing that I have to justify. I've been honest with you in terms of how many folk I know in each category and having challenged you to do the same, you refused. If you are arguing my opinion that i'd prefer other people than you...well I'm sure you'd prefer other people instead of me. Neither of us are going to lose sleep over it. So...exactly what can't you be arsed to argue on? And for the record, I do believe that there are plenty of questions to be asked over certain aspects over a small percentage of immigrants and what they do. I also have a similar issue with a percentage of UK nationals. [edit] but, by no means at all do i judge the rest of a population on those people. So, come on, argue with me. Be arsed about it because its obviously such a burning issue with you that invokes a strong, emotional response that you want to send all the 'fuckers' back and having now entered in to this debate, I am more than happy to support and stand by my own position.
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