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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 30, 2012 9:00:47 GMT
Would much rather see Pennant and Matty or Kightly on the flanks (with Walters in the hole) than what we're getting at the moment. So you would rather we revert to players we had last year, who were the key reasons why we had so little creativity? after all the moaning yourself and others did over the summer about needing to change things? So you think Kightly and Walters are more 'creative' wide men than Pennant and Etherington then? Yesterday we looked infinitely more focussed offensively, once Adam went off, Walters moved into the hole and Matty came in on the wing.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 30, 2012 9:01:24 GMT
Walters did the dirty work brilliantly out wide and his is probably the best defensive wide man in the Premier League. Equally, he is probably the best defensive striker in the league as well when deployed in his usual position.
If we are ever to solve our lack of goals, he needs to offer more offensively and for a long time, he has offered little.
According to some on here he can claim 3 assists yesterday courtesy of a mishit shot cum cross that was bread and butter for the keeper (until some ridiculous defending gifted us a corner) a miscontrol that allowed Crouch to nip in and score at the second attempt and a terrible pass to Etherington (which should have put him clean through on goal to shoot without having to take a touch, yet ended up with Crouch hitting the bar from an Ethers cross.
I guess it all boils down to what we hope from our team. Walters has his uses and is a shoe in for games against the better sides. Against the weaker ones, we need someone who offers us more going forward.
With quality around Crouch yesterday we could, should and probably would have won 5.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 30, 2012 9:09:05 GMT
Walters did the dirty work brilliantly out wide and his is probably the best defensive wide man in the Premier League. Equally, he is probably the best defensive striker in the league as well when deployed in his usual position. If we are ever to solve our lack of goals, he needs to offer more offensively and for a long time, he has offered little. According to some on here he can claim 3 assists yesterday courtesy of a mishit shot come cross that was bread and butter for the keeper (until some ridiculous defending gifted us a corner) a miscontrol that allowed Crouch to nip in and score at the second attempt and a terrible pass to Etherington (which should have put him clean through on goal to shoot without having to take a touch, yet ended up with Crouch hitting the bar from an Ethers cross. I guess it all boils down to what we hope from our team. Walters has his uses and is a shoe in for games against the better sides. Against the weaker ones, we need someone who offers us more going forward. With quality around Crouch yesterday we could, should and probably would have won 5. I see where you are coming from re. Walters but equally, yesterday he simply bullied a fragile Swansea back line and gave them a tough time. If Jerome could get even near to Jons work rate and physicality he could compete with him. He can't though and until we have a better option I think Walters is the right man for the job. PS I am assuming JP is history otherwise he could offer an alternative.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 30, 2012 9:12:56 GMT
I don't disagree with some of that Foxy.
As I have already alluded to, Walters best work yesterday was almost exclusively WITHOUT the ball.
He worked hard and gave a fragile back line no real rest. Against better teams we will need better from our forward players and I'm not sure that Kightly and Walters can give us much better than they are showing at the moment.
For some that will be more than acceptable and for others, it will be an issue to be concerned with until they prove otherwise.
Its been a really promising start for us but there remains much to improve despite the promise. The forward threat remains the biggest potential cause for concern.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 30, 2012 9:13:18 GMT
It certainly looks that way Foxy but if he is history then just why is he still here?
I don't think there's a single person out there who didn't think that Tevez was history at Citeh but in the end he wasn't and they're a much better side with him in it.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 30, 2012 9:19:02 GMT
I don't disagree with some of that Foxy. As I have already alluded to, Walters best work yesterday was almost exclusively WITHOUT the ball. He worked hard and gave a fragile back line no real rest. Against better teams we will need better from our forward players and I'm not sure that Kightly and Walters can give us much better than they are showing at the moment. For some that will be more than acceptable and for others, it will be an issue to be concerned with until they prove otherwise. Its been a really promising start for us but there remains much to improve despite the promise. The forward threat remains the biggest potential cause for concern. We'll always be able to improve mate. Walters is limited in some ways no doubt, he also maintains a work rate that very few others can/do and in a Pulis team that will always be crucial. There are plenty better strikers, wingers, midfielders than Jon but not many of those could play all the positions asked of him. His versatility is a massive strength I reckon and its his physicality and character that helps make him so versatile. If he had an extra yard or two of pace and a slightly better range of passing/finishing he would be one of our stand out players.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 30, 2012 9:20:45 GMT
It certainly looks that way Foxy but if he is history then just why is he still here? I don't think there's a single person out there who didn't think that Tevez was history at Citeh but in the end he wasn't and they're a much better side with him in it. True mate but I have to be honest and say, at this stage, I would rather he was gone. I remain a massive fan but the whole thing has dragged on too long now. Get him out and get someone else in would be my wish at this stage. Real shame because he is a fantastic player.
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Post by jeycov on Sept 30, 2012 9:23:25 GMT
Would much rather see Pennant and Matty or Kightly on the flanks (with Walters in the hole) than what we're getting at the moment. I agree when both Pennant and Etherington are playing at or near to their best. Kightly at age 26, can still improve imo and is showing lots of that "Walters commitment", chasing back to help out, playing on either wing and as a bonus ready to take a shot on goal. Sometimes both Etherington and Pennant delay that pass into the box, giving the opposition time to recover. Not sure why Penant isn't making the bench, he scored 2 for the reserves midweek so maybe needs to get match fit and regain some confidence. The 3 of them challenging for a place in the starting 11 should be good for the team
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Post by smigchop on Sept 30, 2012 9:27:50 GMT
he's got pace, dribbling ability and works his bollocks off for the team, I like him. Yes he hasnt had enormous impact the last couple of games but it still must be hard for a winger to adjust when playing for us. I think our wingers probably have to do the most running in the entire league.
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Post by smigchop on Sept 30, 2012 9:29:32 GMT
also, why agree to give JP the No 7 shirt if he doesn't plan on playing him?? Why not give it to a new signing and tell pennant bollocks?
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Post by theteacher on Sept 30, 2012 9:31:19 GMT
The "cage" has gone, with three more of an "attacking" midfield - TP wants more energy on and goal threat from the wings.
Playing Crouch up top on his own means that two hard working "wide" players with an increased goal threat appears to be what TP is looking for.
Does Pennant and Etherington offer more of a goal threat than Kightly and Walters - in my opinion probably not?
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Post by robinredcoat on Sept 30, 2012 9:46:11 GMT
So you would rather we revert to players we had last year, who were the key reasons why we had so little creativity? after all the moaning yourself and others did over the summer about needing to change things? So you think Kightly and Walters are more 'creative' wide men than Pennant and Etherington then? You think the team was creative last year then? I'm sure I don't need to churn out the stats about number of goals, chances etc, we all know them. Why on earth anyone would want to go back to that beggers belief! Which is what you were suggesting. Come on Rob, admit it, your suggestion was ill thought out, which is understandable on a Sunday morning, but stop trying to dig yourself in deeper!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 30, 2012 10:13:53 GMT
So you think Kightly and Walters are more 'creative' wide men than Pennant and Etherington then? You think the team was creative last year then? I'm sure I don't need to churn out the stats about number of goals, chances etc, we all know them. Why on earth anyone would want to go back to that beggers belief! Which is what you were suggesting. Come on Rob, admit it, your suggestion was ill thought out, which is understandable on a Sunday morning, but stop trying to dig yourself in deeper! Rob? No I don't think the suggestion is ill thought out - I think Walters is better at playing in the hole than Adam and I think Pennant and Matty are better wingers than Kightly and Walters. Just because TP has altered the personnel doesn't then mean it's a given that it's better. In my opinion we clearly looked far more focussed offensively once Adam went off, Walters went into the hole and Matty came in on the flank.
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Post by PerCyfilth ....Captains Log on Sept 30, 2012 10:16:03 GMT
Pace..something we sadly lack elsewhere.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 30, 2012 10:16:34 GMT
The conclusion to draw then is that Adam is the 'problem' (not that I believe there is one) not Kightly?
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Post by superjonnywalters on Sept 30, 2012 10:19:06 GMT
He's doing OK, not spectacular but very steady. Always busy and put the cross in for the first goal. That was Whelan. Kightly is ok so far, for me. Would be much better if he got his head up. His first instinc is head down and run, without looking around to see what else is on. He misses good options at times.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 30, 2012 10:21:32 GMT
The conclusion to draw then is that Adam is the 'problem' (not that I believe there is one) not Kightly? No no no!! Surely you know by now.....there's only one problem. Pulis!
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Post by baltipiesmuggler on Sept 30, 2012 10:21:35 GMT
Worth remembering that TP played Pennant Vs Arsenal and he was totally anonymous. Agreed, on form Pennant is the best option for that position but its hard to ignore what a total dick he's been at times. Frankly, he's been given plenty of chances by TP and the club, I don't buy into this 'he's hard done to' bollocks.
Get your head down, work hard in training, show a better attitude and you might get a look in Jermaine.
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Post by Championship Potter on Sept 30, 2012 10:21:53 GMT
You think the team was creative last year then? I'm sure I don't need to churn out the stats about number of goals, chances etc, we all know them. Why on earth anyone would want to go back to that beggers belief! Which is what you were suggesting. Come on Rob, admit it, your suggestion was ill thought out, which is understandable on a Sunday morning, but stop trying to dig yourself in deeper! Rob? No I don't think the suggestion is ill thought out - I think Walters is better at playing in the hole than Adam and I think Pennant and Matty are better wingers than Kightly and Walters. Just because TP has altered the personnel doesn't then mean it's a given that it's better. In my opinion we clearly looked far more focussed offensively once Adam went off, Walters went into the hole and Matty came in on the flank. We played with Walters in the hole last year and we were woeful. For what it's worth I think the starting team is fine, although I'd play Adam a few yards further back so he could get a bit more involved, and push the wingers a bit further up to support Crouch. The main thing is that we look a hell of a lot better at keeping the ball and building attacks that we did last year. Not sure how much we can read into the last 20 minutes because Swansea were all over the place at that point, I think any team we put out would have caused them problems.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 30, 2012 10:23:58 GMT
The conclusion to draw then is that Adam is the 'problem' (not that I believe there is one) not Kightly? I don't think Adam is offering us an awful lot at the moment. He isn't mobile enough or good enough in the tackle to fulfill the role he's currently being given - Walters is far better at doing that job. I think if JP and Matty are fit and in form then Kightly is easily good enough to provide adequate cover for both of them. The massive plus for us so far this season has been the introductionof N'Zonzi into the heart of the midfield.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Sept 30, 2012 10:28:18 GMT
Adam isn't on top of his game right now.
Mobility is nothing to do with it though. He covers enough ground and although he isn't quick, he isn't exactly slow off the mark.
He does show in flashes he has that bit of quality we lacked before he signed. I'm sure he'll be a very good player for us.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 30, 2012 10:33:58 GMT
Why isn't he on top of his game right now though?
Adam played A LOT deeper during his stand out season at Blackpool and he wasn't remotely asked to play the role (which is essentially what Walters has done in the past) that he's currently being given.
Once Walters moved there yesterday he basically showed Adam how it should be done.
Not a criticism of Adam but I'm far from convinced that he's the right man for the specific task in hand.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Sept 30, 2012 10:34:20 GMT
He's doing OK, not spectacular but very steady. Always busy and put the cross in for the first goal. That was Whelan. Kightly is ok so far, for me. Would be much better if he got his head up. His first instinc is head down and run, without looking around to see what else is on. He misses good options at times. Sorry, meant the second goal! Trust you, Tom you fecker!
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 30, 2012 10:37:39 GMT
Why isn't he on top of his game right now though? Adam played A LOT deeper during his stand out season at Blackpool and he wasn't remotely asked to play the role (which is essentially what Walters has done in the past) that he's currently being given. Once Walters moved there yesterday he basically showed Adam how it should be done. Not a criticism of Adam but I'm far from convinced that he's the right man for the specific task in hand. Fitness? Seems to be carrying a knock to me.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Sept 30, 2012 10:43:39 GMT
Why isn't he on top of his game right now though? Adam played A LOT deeper during his stand out season at Blackpool and he wasn't remotely asked to play the role (which is essentially what Walters has done in the past) that he's currently being given. Once Walters moved there yesterday he basically showed Adam how it should be done. Not a criticism of Adam but I'm far from convinced that he's the right man for the specific task in hand. Some times players are in form, sometimes they are not. Some times players take a while to settle into a new team. I'm not prepared to write him off as being unable to play any specific role for us after only 2 and a half games.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 30, 2012 10:43:48 GMT
Why isn't he on top of his game right now though? Adam played A LOT deeper during his stand out season at Blackpool and he wasn't remotely asked to play the role (which is essentially what Walters has done in the past) that he's currently being given. Once Walters moved there yesterday he basically showed Adam how it should be done. Not a criticism of Adam but I'm far from convinced that he's the right man for the specific task in hand. Fitness? Seems to be carrying a knock to me. Maybe Foxy. I hadn't seen the 'Adam' thread, as I was too busy posting on this one but I've just skim read it now - it seems there's a lot of other people who are also unsure if he's suited to the role that TP has given him. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Potters&action=display&thread=200274
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Sept 30, 2012 11:15:19 GMT
He puts the effort in for the team , not sure the formation does him or walters many favours as they have to sit deep at times, and support crouch who often struggles to hold the ball well .looked better when Matty came on and system altered. Like Walters he tends to play with his head down and lacks Pennants ability but has a much better attitude, think he needs time , will do better in a 4-4-2 if we get back to that when Owen is fit
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Post by shiftyfifty on Sept 30, 2012 11:22:45 GMT
We need to get over Pennant. I was one of his biggest fans, but after seeing his reactions to the goals against Man. City (both for and against us), I now think he's a bit of a twat. He looked pissed off when we scored and had a massive grin on his face when they equalised.
Unless we get plagued with injuries we'll never see him in a Stoke shirt again.
Also, can anyone really say he's had a good game since the Cup Final?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 30, 2012 11:32:08 GMT
Matty has had one and a half good games in 12 months and JP has been in very mixed form when he's played. To suggest these two are ahead of Kightly in the pecking order after the pretty solid start to his Stoke career is beyond me.
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Post by cdlstoke on Sept 30, 2012 12:42:01 GMT
Kightly's poor, very rare beats is man. But another pulis love child so plays every week. Running around for 90 minutes does not make you a good player like some on here seem to think.
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