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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 22:05:31 GMT
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/26/fact-check-has-sadiq-khan-really-overseen-a-surge-in-londonLondon has one of the lowest rates of anti social behaviour in the country. Murder rates are dropping, and the rate was higher when Johnson was last mayor and is much worse per million people compared with other areas such as Bedfordshire, Cleveland, Merseyside, West Mercia, South Yorkshire, Humberside and Northumbria. Knife crime is high for the country, but lower than Cleveland and the West Midlands. For gun crime it has less compared with Gloucestershire, Merseyside, Greater Manchester, Northamptonshire, West Yorkshire, the West Midlands, South Yorkshire and Cleveland. In relation to ASB isn’t the reporting of it more down to the expectations of the areas residents. Eg Would those living in Croydon be reporting a group of youths acting menacingly in the local park like they would in most areas. I very much doubt it. As was previously said by another poster you can’t hang your hat on crime reporting / recording as they differ force to force. If you want to talk figures though this is a pretty damning one The Met recorded a 22 per cent increase in knife-related crime, with 13,957 incidents in the past year alone. Cobs all I can say to that, is that most of my family on my Dad's side were born and live in Croydon and NONE of them are worried about walking the streets. I'm down there regularly and it would never cross my mind to not walk down certain streets, at certain times on my own. I'm not suggesting for a moment, that it's Utopia, it isn't, it's an inner city borough ffs but it seems to me, that so often, the people actually being critical of the area, don't even live there.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 21:25:47 GMT
For John ...
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 16:41:52 GMT
I was rather hoping you'd provide examples of what you (and others) are advocating. If it's as simple as John telling them that he wants to get back into the Premiership, which are the clubs who have already adopted this route? Chipping in again, I don't know if any English football clubs have used this method, but as I said earlier this afternoon, there are plenty of major success stories of profile companies and their assets being completely revitalised due to adopting this third party process. I can't recall the details, but behind the scenes, VW undertook a similar process in more recent times, where on the surface they seemed to ticking along just fine, in the background they were in a right kerfuffle over newer competing motor manufacturers, and new kids on the block stealing their thunder. I think I'm also right in saying Mercedes Benz have also had third party consultants take a look at their structure, business model and offer and you'd be forgiven for thinking that they have got the game sewn up. Nationwide Building Society (I think) undertook a similar exercise where the notion of the Building Society was under serious threat from other financial services. At the risk of sounding more than a little like Ricky Martin, this process affords a company an objective insight to seeing themselves differently and then acting to implement a new strategy. How John chooses who to use shouldn't be the barrier to it happening. Ah right, so a policy is being advocated that nobody else has previously adopted and we're expecting John Coates to lead the vanguard in adopting such an idea? Righto! 🤭
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 15:52:56 GMT
Thanks for the answer CS and at which football clubs do they have a proven track record of success?
I have no idea and it really doesn’t matter. McKinsey or BCG will identify the route. That’s what they do. They have a track record of transforming all types of business throughout the world. That’s what they do. I was rather hoping you'd provide examples of what you (and others) are advocating. If it's as simple as John telling them that he wants to get back into the Premiership, which are the clubs who have already adopted this route?
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Israel
Feb 26, 2024 15:50:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 15:50:22 GMT
Brave soldier. Rest in peace. Video not for faint hearted How desperately sad, I can only imagine what his parents must be going through.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 15:20:29 GMT
Good grief. He was in the hospital last week. I don't think a stint at stoke currently will do his health any good whatsoever.
Of course you are absolutely right but would anybody be that surprised if he was announced as our new manager by the end of the week?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 15:15:45 GMT
Yes this is exactly where I'm at in the thought process. The supporters were urging the board to act quickly and decisively over Alex Neil, which they duly did. Our card for replacing the manager this season has already been played. I've said elsewhere on the board, that I genuinely believe that we could bring Pep Guardiola in tomorrow and it would give us no greater guarantee of staying up, than if we stick with Schumacher. We have an utterly dreadful squad, do we genuinely believe that a Pulis or an Allardyce could play a pragmatic defensive game to keep us up, with this current crop of defenders? It's mad man talk. Shcumacher knows the players and he knows who is capable of what and who the bad eggs are, it would take a new manager several weeks to garner such information and then we'd be down with another manager, so what do we then, recruit again in the summer? For me, we have to stick with Schumacher and if we go down, then he's proved that he get a team out of that division before and in some style, so we give him at least another season. Having said all that, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's sacked this week.
Not sure if I said on this thread or another one but we're in this peculiar position where I believe we have the right man to bring us back up but not sure he's the right man to keep us up. However for the reason that he's the right man to bring us back up we have to stick and hope he manages to scrape us over the line.
It seems the only logical thing to do ... so no doubt he'll be gone then!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 15:10:34 GMT
You see this goes to the absolute heart of the discussion and I fundamentally disagree with you, I think you make it sound much simpler than it is. I tell you what, which are the top three consultancy's in the game and at which clubs have they shown a proven track record of success? As money is no object, you would think that these would be the specific agencies the family would be interested in, wouldn't you? Cheers Completely off the top of my head without doing any specific research into it I would say the 2 top consultancy firms in the world are McKinsey and BCG. You appoint one of them (it really doesn’t matter which) and they then use their worldwide network of expertise and contacts to identify the top sports consultancy. John’s brief to them doesn’t need to be complicated (he just tells them he wants to get back into the PL) and they do the rest including identifying the specific structure for SCFC and the right people.
Thanks for the answer CS and at which football clubs do they have a proven track record of success?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 15:01:58 GMT
Seven defeats in eight games is what we have. And when the next manager can’t get a tune do we sack him also? I mean cmon eh this nonsense has to stop
Yes this is exactly where I'm at in the thought process.
The supporters were urging the board to act quickly and decisively over Alex Neil, which they duly did.
Our card for replacing the manager this season has already been played.
I've said elsewhere on the board, that I genuinely believe that we could bring Pep Guardiola in tomorrow and it would give us no greater guarantee of staying up, than if we stick with Schumacher. We have an utterly dreadful squad, do we genuinely believe that a Pulis or an Allardyce could play a pragmatic defensive game to keep us up, with this current crop of defenders? It's mad man talk.
Shcumacher knows the players and he knows who is capable of what and who the bad eggs are, it would take a new manager several weeks to garner such information and then we'd be down with another manager, so what do we then, recruit again in the summer?
For me, we have to stick with Schumacher and if we go down, then he's proved that he get a team out of that division before and in some style, so we give him at least another season.
Having said all that, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's sacked this week.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 14:19:50 GMT
Five steps to reversing the decline: 1. John Coates admits that Stoke City is in terminal decline. 2. John Coates pays his Executive PA to spend eight hours doing nothing but sourcing Procurement Tendering Specialists. 3. John Coates asks Bet365 (his sister) for advice on who to choose. 4. Denise Coates pays someone a lot of money to take the decision for her brother. 5. John Coates sanctions the intervention and signs off the process. Everyone involved signs watertight NDAs with huge penalties for any disclosure. 3. and 4. is where the weak links in the process arise isn't it?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 14:15:56 GMT
No, YOU still can't grasp the lack of logic in what you're asking, despite numerous people attempting to explain it to you. You're entire issue with the Coates Family, is how poor their decision making has been and yet you somehow believe, that the solution to their problem of poor decision making, is for them to make the biggest decision of all! If they're so terrible at decision making, what makes you believe they will get the decision of who to bring in as a third party, right? And then what happens next, when they inevitably get that decision wrong? The actual decision on what consultancy to use wouldn't be that hard You see this goes to the absolute heart of the discussion and I fundamentally disagree with you, I think you make it sound much simpler than it is. I tell you what, which are the top three consultancy's in the game and at which clubs have they shown a proven track record of success? As money is no object, you would think that these would be the specific agencies the family would be interested in, wouldn't you? Cheers
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 13:09:53 GMT
And who makes the decision on who to choose to give them advice on the tendering process? As my current account and savings can attest, unfortunately I'm not far enough up the professional food chain to know the ins and outs of tendering procurement but I know of companies like Executive Compass who specialise in being paid to do the thinking and then actioning the process. I'm not being facetious but if you have a leaky bathtub, you seek out advice from friends and Trust Pilot and get the best one in. Coates should just be looking for the best Blue Chip equivalent. But as we've both agreed, the tragic irony is, that the bad decision makers, who have got us into this mess, are ultimately going to be the ones to decide which one to choose.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 13:00:08 GMT
And whose decision will it be, that ultimately decides which mythical third party to bring in? They put it out to tender, via taking expert advice on the tendering process. All of this is of course unicorn thinking unless John (and his dad) acknowledge that something radical needs to happen. And who makes the decision on who to choose to give them advice on the tendering process?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 12:56:25 GMT
They've just brought in their first Director of Football and first Director(ish) of transfers, after people urging them to get help - both have been spectacular flops. Chelsea have spent over a billion pounds on transfers and gone through managers like a dose of salts and still got absolutely nowhere, they're decision making has been terrible to. Hi Paul. The most recent problem (unmitigated disaster) was that the way Coates went about recruiting a DoF (the incoming manager's mate, FFS). How they/we ended up with Dublin who has a Level 1 certificate in recruitment (see my post on another thread a couple of weeks back) is anybody's guess. Chelsea and Stoke are currently two peas in a pod. Throwing money at a woefully problem and hoping some of it sticks. I would argue that Chelsea are now a decade behind Man City, and at least the Glazers have woken up and realised that they need someone in to make change happen that has resulted in Sir James Arthur Ratcliffe who began his road to making billions as a chemical engineer. If Stoke don't want to, or don't know how to use a third party, then they need some real heavyweight articulate brains in the boardroom. Hi Craig There are many football commentators out there who have expressed the opinion, that James Ratcliffe knows pretty much fuck all about football and that this whole process is nothing more than a vanity project on his part. Until we see how it ultimately pans out, I don't think we can use it as an example either way. The fundamental irony at Stoke, is that no matter how you want to spin it, ANY process at the club will ultimately have to begin with a decision made by the Coates family (who, everybody seems to agree, are terrible at decision making).
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 12:44:15 GMT
Oh come on, please, you've just spent the last few pages telling us how every decision they've made over the last few years has been wrong (and I wouldn't disagree with you) and now you're suggesting that the biggest single decision that they could ever make, will be a guaranteed banker? With respect mate, that's the very definition of illogical. They've just brought in their first Director of Football and first Director(ish) of transfers, after people urging them to get help - both have been spectacular flops. Chelsea have spent over a billion pounds on transfers and gone through managers like a dose of salts and still got absolutely nowhere. Maybe they should bring in this mythical third party with guaranteed expertise that gets you results too. And having said all that, I'm not against them bringing in a third part at all, far from it. I just don't want you to nievely believe that it will be a panacea for all of our ills. The one thing we can take from all of this, is that the Coates family consistently make rubbish decisions and we simply have to accept that for what it is and until they get lucky (because ultimately that's what it will be), be it with a manager, a director of football, a recruitment director, or even a mythical third party to run the whole thing, then (as I said to you originally) it is what it is. I haven't said we need a mythical third party to run the whole thing, the mythical third party is brought in to help with the recruitment of the roles you described. I don't naively believe that it will be a panacea for all of our ills but it would give us the best chance at getting it right (or lucky!). One things for certain if it's left solely to them again, the chances are they'll get it wrong....again. And whose decision will it be, that ultimately decides which mythical third party to bring in?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 12:36:37 GMT
No, YOU still can't grasp the lack of logic in what you're asking, despite numerous people attempting to explain it to you. You're entire issue with the Coates Family, is how poor their decision making has been and yet you somehow believe, that the solution to their problem of poor decision making, is for them to make the biggest decision of all! If they're so terrible at decision making, what makes you believe they will get the decision of who to bring in as a third party, right? And then what happens next, when they inevitably get that decision wrong? they bring in a third party with expertise in elite sports/football club/company management and structure. They can't get that bit wrong Oh come on, please, you've just spent the last few pages telling us how every decision they've made over the last few years has been wrong (and I wouldn't disagree with you) and now you're suggesting that the biggest single decision that they could ever make, will be a guaranteed banker? With respect mate, that's the very definition of illogical. They've just brought in their first Director of Football and first Director(ish) of transfers, after people urging them to get help - both have been spectacular flops. Chelsea have spent over a billion pounds on transfers and gone through managers like a dose of salts and still got absolutely nowhere, they're decision making has been terrible to. Maybe they should bring in this mythical third party with guaranteed expertise that gets you results too. And having said all that, I'm not against them bringing in a third party at all, far from it. I just don't want you to nievely believe that it will be a panacea for all of our ills. The one thing we can take from all of this, is that the Coates family consistently make rubbish decisions and we simply have to accept that for what it is and until they get lucky (because ultimately that's what it will be), be it with a manager, a director of football, a recruitment director, or even a mythical third party to run the whole thing, then (as I said to you originally) it is what it is.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 26, 2024 12:01:13 GMT
There is a long time Oatcake user/reader who would perhaps best articulate the following, but I'll leave it to them if they read this to expand or illuminate with examples that which I'm referring to. Companies own products which are developed as brands. Sometimes companies forget what their products/brands mean to consumers, particularly with old, legacy brands and products which can if not attended to, be disregarded as old hat, with long held misperceptions taking root. Astute (or desperate) companies employ advertising or branding agencies not just to simply to sell their products/brands, but to undertake research and development to better understand their products/brands in terms of how they are presented and then by extension, understood more widely by customers, by other companies, by third parties such as supermarkets and stockists. This works well when the owners of the companies and the products they make and sell, trust the advertising agency to tell them what they don't know, to correct their perceptions and tell them where they are going wrong. They still retain ownership and control of their brands and products, but entrust the improvements, development and communication strategy to the third party - the ad agency, whose job it is not to try and persuade people into buying something, but to reposition it, to recalibrate the spaces in which it is best understood. By entrusting a third party with a completely different skill set and expertise to their own, it can make an enormous difference. In footballing terms, Stoke City (The Coates Family), need to entrust the Where Now Where Next process to a third party with expertise in elite sports/football club/company management and structure, to facilitate a full investigation into its working methods and crucially, to listen to the findings. The is no need for The Coates Family to sell up, but they need the expertise of others to help them remodel their structure and operational model. And fast. The only thing that John Coates is guilty of is guessing. Your can't guess your way to success. In footballing terms, Stoke City (The Coates Family), need to entrust the Where Now Where Next process to a third party with expertise in elite sports/football club/company management and structure, to facilitate a full investigation into its working methods and crucially, to listen to the findings.
The is no need for The Coates Family to sell up, but they need the expertise of others to help them remodel their structure and operational model. And fast.Which is exactly the point I was trying to make late last night but for some reason Paul Spencer and other's can't seem to grasp the idea No, YOU still can't grasp the lack of logic in what you're asking, despite numerous people attempting to explain it to you. You're entire issue with the Coates Family, is how poor their decision making has been and yet you somehow believe, that the solution to their problem of poor decision making, is for them to make the biggest decision of all! If they're so terrible at decision making, what makes you believe they will get the decision of who to bring in as a third party, right? And then what happens next, when they inevitably get that decision wrong?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 23:20:02 GMT
Clearly another antisemitic gesture ... Rachel reeves wants the police to tackle anyone with anti zionest views lol. I've been arguing for the past couple of years on here, that we must allow Starmer to do whatever it takes to get into power and turn a blind eye to any doubts about him that we might have. I'm a Labour party member and voted for him to be leader FFS! But their position on Palestine has made me realise just how wrong I was. If they can get such a fundamental issue so wrong, then how I can trust them on anything else? I won't be renewing in April.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 23:09:12 GMT
So how do they identify who should give them the outside help to help identify and interview the best possible candidates? With respect, I think it's your position that is actually bizarre. The process surely has to begin with a personnel decision made by the Coates family. No it doesn’t. The family just need to find out which are the best / most expensive recruitment consultants in the world (I’m sure Denise would help John with that) and turn over the whole recruitment process for CEO and DOF to them and then pay their bill at the end of the process. I assume you are being sarcastic, hard to tell on here sometimes? 😁
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Israel
Feb 25, 2024 23:04:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 23:04:00 GMT
Clearly another antisemitic gesture ...
EDIT: I think it's absolutely disgusting that Musk is taking this sort of stuff down off of Twitter, it should be mainstream news FFS! But they're trying to hide it from the world.
Here's another link, no doubt, this too will have been censored, by the time you get to see it! 🙄
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 22:34:55 GMT
It's illogical because the people who you accuse of making a balls up of appointments for the last seven years, are, drum roll ... the very same people who will be making the appointment that you believe gives you your solution. Ive said multiple times they’d need to get outside help to help identify and interview the best available candidates. Which part of that do you not understand and keep ignoring? It’s bizarre. So how do they identify who should give them the outside help to help identify and interview the best possible candidates? With respect, I think it's your position that is actually bizarre. The process surely has to begin with a personnel decision made by the Coates family, doesn't it?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 22:22:13 GMT
You don't want him out? You literally said that the post advocating them selling the club was the 'post of the decade' And I'm not being difficult, I'm holding a mirror up to your opinions, which I don't think hold water and don't reflect the reality of the situation. As for them "obviously needing help and bringing in an outside consultant to help them employ the best available" ... isn't that EXACTLY what he did with Martin and Dublin? And look how that's turned out! It's completely illogical to suggest that he's rubbish at making appointments, so the solution must be for him to make yet more appointments. How is it illogical to suggest that they get outside help to help them make the appointments because they’ve made such a balls up of it almost every time for the last 7 years. Surely that’s common sense? It's illogical because the people who you accuse of making a balls up of appointments for the last seven years, are, drum roll ... the very same people who will be making the appointment that you believe gives you your solution.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 22:04:01 GMT
The reason you want him out is because he's rubbish at making appointments and your solution to the problem, is to encourage him to make even more appointments? Okay then ... I’ve not said I want him out. I’ve repeatedly said on this board for the last 2 years that the ideal scenario is the one I described above. But I do also think there would be life after the Coates, which you don’t agree with. Not sure why you have to be so difficult during these discussions, it’s a weird flex. They’d obviously need help, bring in an outside consultant to help them employ the best available. Surely you agree? Or do you think John should remain in total control falling for snake oil salesmen time and time again? You don't want him out? You literally said that the post advocating them selling the club was the 'post of the decade' And I'm not being difficult, I'm holding a mirror up to your opinions, which I don't think hold water and don't reflect the reality of the situation. As for them "obviously needing help and bringing in an outside consultant to help them employ the best available" ... isn't that EXACTLY what he did with Martin and Dublin? And look how that's turned out! It's completely illogical to suggest that he's rubbish at making appointments, so the solution must be for him to make yet more appointments.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 21:49:00 GMT
This is my biggest issue. You can correct a lack of effort. Much harder to correct a lack of technical or tactical ability. Isnt that what training is for. SS and his team have bought nothing technical or tactical to the way we play, just the opposite in fact. Ok,I get the fact that we were pretty poor when he arrived, but usually new managers bring in new ideas and get a tune out of the squad, new manager bounce and all that. I genuinely think that we could bring in Guardiola tomorrow and it wouldn't make any difference at all. The good players (Burger and Bae) look good and the shit players (the rest of squad) look shit. That's because Burger and Bae are good footballers and the rest of the squad are shit footballers. I really believe that they are playing for him though.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 21:35:37 GMT
There isn't an alternative. Even if there was mass protests and people on the pitch and in the directors boxes, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. It's a completely different situation now, the value of the club is far too high, for it to be legitimately put on the market, even if the Coates family needed to sell (which they don't). But there is an alternative, they appoint a CEO and a Sporting Director and allow them to sort the mess out. They have all the finances and reach we could ever hope for it just seems like they’re too arrogant to fucking use it in the right way. Go and appoint the best CEO and Sporting Director they can get. We’re still a good project in the right hands. Given the owners wealth. The reason you want him out is because he's rubbish at making appointments and your solution to the problem, is to encourage him to make even more appointments? Okay then ...
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 21:31:41 GMT
Well that's at least one promise he can tick off his to do list! 😁
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 20:55:08 GMT
Just won South Carolina. There is no stopping him. If the Democrats are gonna remove Biden and persuade Michelle Obama then it has to be soon, otherwise she will not have time to mount a credible campaign.. South Carolina you say? /mediaViewer?currentTweet=1761626052982349928¤tTweetUser=RpsAgainstTrump
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 20:24:59 GMT
The debt does make it less of an attractive prospect and probably shrinks the number of potential buyers, for sure. I'm not having it that, even in the state the club is in right now, it's completely unsaleable. If, in the unlikely event of the Coates putting the club up for sale tomorrow, I'm absolutely certain that there'd be interested parties. It's an interesting debate and I agree with Paul that I don't think they'd be too keen to wipe the debt completely clean. There would definitely be a certain level of 'smacked arse' to the negotiations around what would be a very sore point both personally to John and Peter but also throughout the family you'd think. That in itself is interesting as the debt has been accrued 100% by them through over half a decade of dreadful decision after dreadful decision, and that in itself doesn't lend itself to the mantra that they care deeply about the club and that they are the best owners we could ever wish for, which certain quarters of our fanbase are overly insistent on.
To be fair to the club they would say, that they have in the past wiped off £120 million of the debt and converted other debts into equity, which is good because it means the club aren't directly saddled with them, it is actually the Coates family taking all the risk but on the other hand, it means that the club becomes increasingly more expensive to buy if it was to be put up for sale.
And I'm sure the family would also argue, that that doesn't actually matter because of them being so ridiculously wealthy, the club won't actually ever need to be put up for sale.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 20:13:43 GMT
I just can’t see how we’re an investment opportunity for anyone: - a club that has never made a profit worth mentioning. - has lost the current owners £140 million and survives only because of their largess and intense interest. - doesn’t own the stadium, which is ageing with no proper transport links in place. - is the fifth oldest club but has only ever won one trophy. - has no real player assets. - has some of the worlds biggest clubs on its doorstep. - is based in a economically depressed small city with two clubs. - has no global brand presence. - has no prospect of gates much beyond £30k. The only businessman that would buy this club is by definition a bad one. Either naively incompetent or looking to strip whatever small value may exist. At the moment we got 99 problems but some cash ain’t one. If they sell we’ve got a hundred. Resources is the single most important factor in every successful football club in the long run. It lets you make mistakes and still survive. Doesn’t mean I’m happy with the way the club has been run since 2012 but we’ve got to live in the real world.
In a nutshell.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 19:59:39 GMT
There isn't an alternative and you don't have a credible plan for one either. That's where we disagree. I refuse to believe that the club (even in its current state) wouldn't represent an investment opportunity for someone or some group somewhere.
But with respect mate, I think that belief is based more on frustration with the situation than anything else.
You yourself have conceded that the debt wouldn't make it an attractive purchase.
With what would be required to buy it, you could buy something far more spectacular.
Why buy a terraced house in Shelton, when you could buy a fuck off big detached in Westlands for the same price?
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