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Post by FranktheRabbit on Oct 13, 2024 16:13:32 GMT
You still haven't read the article, have you? She shouted out and no people came to her aid. Yes, I read the article from back to front. Whether your a girl or a man, you have to stick up for yourself. Tell them to FO and go to another carriage. It's life , that's how it is sadly. You cannot top these situations unfortunately. What a shitty attitude. Hope you don’t have daughters. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 13, 2024 16:37:40 GMT
You still haven't read the article, have you? She shouted out and no people came to her aid. Yes, I read the article from back to front. Whether your a girl or a man, you have to stick up for yourself. Tell them to FO and go to another carriage. It's life , that's how it is sadly. You cannot top these situations unfortunately. Have you ever got on the tube after a football match? You don't get much choice of which carriage you get in, you go with the flow and trying to move about once on the train is nigh on impossible. No doubt you would agree with the judges who used to say to women who had been raped that perhaps she was raped because of the clothes she was wearing. |
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Post by madnellie on Oct 13, 2024 16:53:20 GMT
Yes, I read the article from back to front. Whether your a girl or a man, you have to stick up for yourself. Tell them to FO and go to another carriage. It's life , that's how it is sadly. You cannot top these situations unfortunately. Have you ever got on the tube after a football match? You don't get much choice of which carriage you get in, you go with the flow and trying to move about once on the train is nigh on impossible. No doubt you would agree with the judges who used to say to women who had been raped that perhaps she was raped because of the clothes she was wearing. Well said, notts. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 13, 2024 16:55:23 GMT
Do you think it's all tripe? What about the bit where I said most lads aren't sexual abusers? Disagree with that? I agree most lads are not sexual abusers in the strict sense. However when you get a lot of men together and one or two start verbally abusing a woman, the rest will laugh and egg on as if it is funny to see a woman abused. That is, in the loose sense a type of sexual abuse. One of our five school rules where I taught was 'No bullying, no bystanders' and at the beginning of every school year the head would give a talk about how finding bullying funny or just standing aside and watching it happen without doing anything was just as bad as the bullying itself. He also used to point out that things aren't funny or a just a joke if the other person isn't laughing. TBF I'm pretty sure young lads still don't really listen to teachers. Isn't it all about social status and fun which teachers can't really help with. If enough blokes realised the issues with egging on sucky acts then I think they'd stop because we're mostly decent, just a bit blind and dumb sometimes. A bit of understanding for men and getting good role models to push the right way is just way more effective than a lot of the preaching. Especially from the types who go off on "men are pigs" rants. I know you're defo not saying that! I'm just venting a bit about it because it annoys me. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 13, 2024 17:10:24 GMT
I agree most lads are not sexual abusers in the strict sense. However when you get a lot of men together and one or two start verbally abusing a woman, the rest will laugh and egg on as if it is funny to see a woman abused. That is, in the loose sense a type of sexual abuse. One of our five school rules where I taught was 'No bullying, no bystanders' and at the beginning of every school year the head would give a talk about how finding bullying funny or just standing aside and watching it happen without doing anything was just as bad as the bullying itself. He also used to point out that things aren't funny or a just a joke if the other person isn't laughing. TBF I'm pretty sure young lads still don't really listen to teachers. Isn't it all about social status and fun which teachers can't really help with. If enough blokes realised the issues with egging on sucky acts then I think they'd stop because we're mostly decent, just a bit blind and dumb sometimes. A bit of understanding for men and getting good role models to push the right way is just way more effective than a lot of the preaching. Especially from the types who go off on "men are pigs" rants. I know you're defo not saying that! I'm just venting a bit about it because it annoys me. My point wasn't that they should be preached to but that when you say most lads are not sexual abusers you are wrong in the sense that standing watching and laughing at someone else comitting abuse is a type of sexual abuse. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 13, 2024 17:51:51 GMT
My point wasn't that they should be preached to but that when you say most lads are not sexual abusers you are wrong in the sense that standing watching and laughing at someone else comitting abuse is a type of sexual abuse. I'd prefer to be more sparing with the terms I think. Just feel like it kinda devalues words when they're used really broadly? Laughing and encouraging is bad but doing it is more active somehow. I'm convinced most lads wouldn't actively do it but if you call everyone abusers it's natural to tune it out I think. Don't really know though, just my feeling mate. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 13, 2024 18:00:03 GMT
My point wasn't that they should be preached to but that when you say most lads are not sexual abusers you are wrong in the sense that standing watching and laughing at someone else comitting abuse is a type of sexual abuse. I'd prefer to be more sparing with the terms I think. Just feel like it kinda devalues words when they're used really broadly? Laughing and encouraging is bad but doing it is more active somehow. I'm convinced most lads wouldn't actively do it but if you call everyone abusers it's natural to tune it out I think. Don't really know though, just my feeling mate. I agree in a way that the perpetrators of the abuse need to be seen as the real villains but I sometimes think the people watching and laughing are encouraging and perhaps if a few of their mates told them to stop as it wasn't clever or funny, and walked away it might help. I also think that telling those people who laugh that they are also committing sexual abuse might make them realise the seriousness of what they were doing. |
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Post by Bera’s Beano on Oct 13, 2024 23:04:59 GMT
I have a 13 year old brother who seems to watch a lot of Andrew Tate stuff and its things like him that are seriously worrying about social media and the content that people can comsume very easily these days. All I think any of us can do is try to educate our kids and the ones around us and hopefully help others as and when it is possible. Not a nice commentary on society as a whole but it should be steadily improving I suppose. You mention Andrew Tate. Do some men see him as a role model? Something to aspire to? Terrifyingly yes, they do. His following is far too large and I’d bet a lot that it’s almost entirely made up of middle aged men who think it’s funny to be like him, or kids who have parents like that or no decent role models. The guy is the scummiest level of scum. |
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Post by senojbor on Oct 14, 2024 9:45:24 GMT
Yes, I read the article from back to front. Whether your a girl or a man, you have to stick up for yourself. Tell them to FO and go to another carriage. It's life , that's how it is sadly. You cannot top these situations unfortunately. What a shitty attitude. Hope you don’t have daughters. Personal insults eh I don't know how other people bring there daughters up but mine have been fine. I have a 3 and we've certainly given them good advice. I'd tell them to avoid situations like that, traveling alone on a train with a load of pissed up away fans. I or their mother would pick them up whatever time of day or night. I'd tell them to avoid certain taxi firms too. Just general stuff. It's how it is unfortunately. Tell me then. What would you tell your daughter to do. i'm listening? |
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Post by str8outtahampton on Oct 14, 2024 9:47:31 GMT
Obviously the girl had bad experience but it isn't the norm and the vast majority of men and lads don't behave that way. She really needed to yell to him to back the f*** off. Because it's that easy for a 5ft 3ins woman to stand up to a man who is already feeling emboldened enough to sexually assault her in a public place... Did you read the article? She did confront them and it made it worse: "To exacerbate things, the away fan had two teenage sons with him who started laughing about their dad being able to “penetrate” a girl on a train and when I told him to stop, all hell broke loose. I won’t go into everything they said, but it was cruel and misogynistic. They then started filming me as I was still being assaulted, while someone in the carriage yelled at me to “enjoy it”. The vast majority of men might not behave that way, but the vast majority of men in that train carriage either did behave that way, or were complicit. Absolutely. Three observations. I am not a woman and I have never been the victim of sexual abuse. But I think the term itself is unhelpful. For example - and obviously what's going on here is way short of rape - rape is defined as a sexual offence. For me it's a crime of violence. The "sexual" element seems to me to be rooted in the notion that on occasion a man cannot control his urges. For anyone who thinks that this (or any other) woman could/should suck it up, because that's just the way it is - simply replace "Woman" with "Anyone with an ST postcode". How's that Mt Rushmore project coming along up the Roaches? |
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Post by senojbor on Oct 14, 2024 9:48:34 GMT
Yes, I read the article from back to front. Whether your a girl or a man, you have to stick up for yourself. Tell them to FO and go to another carriage. It's life , that's how it is sadly. You cannot top these situations unfortunately. Have you ever got on the tube after a football match? You don't get much choice of which carriage you get in, you go with the flow and trying to move about once on the train is nigh on impossible. No doubt you would agree with the judges who used to say to women who had been raped that perhaps she was raped because of the clothes she was wearing. Another personal uncalled for insult |
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 14, 2024 10:14:16 GMT
Have you ever got on the tube after a football match? You don't get much choice of which carriage you get in, you go with the flow and trying to move about once on the train is nigh on impossible. No doubt you would agree with the judges who used to say to women who had been raped that perhaps she was raped because of the clothes she was wearing. Another personal uncalled for insult Why is it a personal insult? You seem to think this young woman was at fault for the treatment she received because she didn't stick up for herself or move carriage. She did nothing wrong, why should she be the one to move? There is not a lot of difference between that and blaming women for their attire provoking men to rape them. It seems many people seem to think that it is the responsibility of women to make sure they are not abused by men. I remember my first year at Uni we were put in digs with host families instead of Halls (the idea being that it helped students to settle if they were in a family environment). Any way the advice to female students was never to walk home alone in the dark, the problem being that my digs were 15 minutes walk beyond anyone else's. So were they saying that I shouldn't stay on Campus and enjoy the night life which is one of the reasons for going to Uni because I couldn't be sure I'd be safe on my way home? I got a bike but that was still a very scary journey home especially when another student got attacked in a similar situation but I survived the year. Men never get that problem so don't really appreciate how a woman's life is affected. I'm sure the decision to put us in digs was made by a well meaning man. |
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olias
Academy Starlet
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Post by olias on Oct 14, 2024 10:17:51 GMT
Have you ever got on the tube after a football match? You don't get much choice of which carriage you get in, you go with the flow and trying to move about once on the train is nigh on impossible. No doubt you would agree with the judges who used to say to women who had been raped that perhaps she was raped because of the clothes she was wearing. Another personal uncalled for insult Observations, are NOT insults. You sound like the type that gets, 'offended', a lot. |
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Post by flea79 on Oct 14, 2024 10:32:51 GMT
its fuck all to do with football, its just chance that this guy was coming back from a match, if he had been the darts would the headline read, ugly side of darts fandom rears it head again?
the "people" who carry out these sexual assaults are deviant monsters who should be placed in the same categories as rapists and nonces
its a sexual assault, plain and simple a sexual assault
and those that find it amusing and film it or egg it on are no better
the sights i see when im dj'ing and a drunken bloke fixates on a woman who is not interested is frightening, it borders on attempted rape at times, i dont tolerate it and have been known too stop the music and shame the perpetrator or have him removed by security staff
i have a young daughter and the idea that one day she will be exposed to people like this scares the shit out of me
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 14, 2024 10:35:05 GMT
its fuck all to do with football, its just chance that this guy was coming back from a match, if he had been the darts would the headline read, ugly side of darts fandom rears it head again? the "people" who carry out these sexual assaults are deviant monsters who should be placed in the same categories as rapists and nonces its a sexual assault, plain and simple a sexual assault and those that find it amusing and film it or egg it on are no better the sights i see when im dj'ing and a drunken bloke fixates on a woman who is not interested is frightening, it borders on attempted rape at times, i dont tolerate it and have been known too stop the music and shame the perpetrator or have him removed by security staff i have a young daughter and the idea that one day she will be exposed to people like this scares the shit out of me Well said and good for you. |
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Post by flea79 on Oct 14, 2024 10:40:25 GMT
its fuck all to do with football, its just chance that this guy was coming back from a match, if he had been the darts would the headline read, ugly side of darts fandom rears it head again? the "people" who carry out these sexual assaults are deviant monsters who should be placed in the same categories as rapists and nonces its a sexual assault, plain and simple a sexual assault and those that find it amusing and film it or egg it on are no better the sights i see when im dj'ing and a drunken bloke fixates on a woman who is not interested is frightening, it borders on attempted rape at times, i dont tolerate it and have been known too stop the music and shame the perpetrator or have him removed by security staff i have a young daughter and the idea that one day she will be exposed to people like this scares the shit out of me Well said and good for you. an unhealthy obsession with pornography bordering on addiction is driving it and warping the mind of some people there is a whole sub genre known as gooning that involves taking photos from girls social media profiles and sharing them round like pieces of meat and commenting the most degrading things you can under them and of course the AI tools that let you deep fake a nude from these pictures is really ramping things up all of a sudden your innocent night out photo becomes a much more dark image that cant ever be deleted once it gets shared! its too late now the genie is out of the bottle, all we can do is educate and enforce discipline upon the offenders, i had a doorman who has no issue with dragging a nonce out and away from prying eyes and cameras and destroying these men, its what is needed now, the law is no deterrent |
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Post by jokker on Oct 14, 2024 12:04:02 GMT
I'd prefer to be more sparing with the terms I think. Just feel like it kinda devalues words when they're used really broadly? Laughing and encouraging is bad but doing it is more active somehow. I'm convinced most lads wouldn't actively do it but if you call everyone abusers it's natural to tune it out I think. Don't really know though, just my feeling mate. I agree in a way that the perpetrators of the abuse need to be seen as the real villains but I sometimes think the people watching and laughing are encouraging and perhaps if a few of their mates told them to stop as it wasn't clever or funny, and walked away it might help. I also think that telling those people who laugh that they are also committing sexual abuse might make them realise the seriousness of what they were doing. Perhaps people should watch an old Jodie Foster film titled the Accused. Its theme recalls the scenario we have here, not that it's identical, but very similar. |
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Post by senojbor on Oct 14, 2024 12:48:04 GMT
Another personal uncalled for insult Why is it a personal insult? You seem to think this young woman was at fault.... Pardon? I did not say that or imply that whatsoever. I suggested things she could have done. As a previous poster said this isn't a football problem but a problem in society in general. Stop making out that men are all bad, they are not. If I was on that train I wouldn't have turned a blind eye and most men wouldn't either. I've watched Stoke, home and away for 60 years and I've NEVER seen anything like this, not once. But it seems you have a problem with men and it suits your narrative. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 14, 2024 12:57:29 GMT
I agree in a way that the perpetrators of the abuse need to be seen as the real villains but I sometimes think the people watching and laughing are encouraging and perhaps if a few of their mates told them to stop as it wasn't clever or funny, and walked away it might help. I also think that telling those people who laugh that they are also committing sexual abuse might make them realise the seriousness of what they were doing. Perhaps people should watch an old Jodie Foster film titled the Accused. Its theme recalls the scenario we have here, not that it's identical, but very similar. Or even the Netflix documentary in their Trial by Media series of the real case upon which the film was based www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a32585426/cheryl-araujo-trial-by-media-true-story/ |
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Post by senojbor on Oct 14, 2024 13:01:41 GMT
Another personal uncalled for insult Observations, are NOT insults. You sound like the type that gets, 'offended', a lot. No they are insults and certainly not correct, and no I don't get offended easily. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Oct 14, 2024 13:04:09 GMT
Why is it a personal insult? You seem to think this young woman was at fault.... Pardon? I did not say that or imply that whatsoever. I suggested things she could have done. As a previous poster said this isn't a football problem but a problem in society in general. Stop making out that men are all bad, they are not. If I was on that train I wouldn't have turned a blind eye and most men wouldn't either. I've watched Stoke, home and away for 60 years and I've NEVER seen anything like this, not once. But it seems you have a problem with men and it suits your narrative. Wow I think you need to stop posting on this thread you're coming across as quite the neanderthal I'm afraid. Embarrassing what you've been arguing on this |
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 14, 2024 13:06:59 GMT
Why is it a personal insult? You seem to think this young woman was at fault.... Pardon? I did not say that or imply that whatsoever. I suggested things she could have done. As a previous poster said this isn't a football problem but a problem in society in general. Stop making out that men are all bad, they are not. If I was on that train I wouldn't have turned a blind eye and most men wouldn't either. I've watched Stoke, home and away for 60 years and I've NEVER seen anything like this, not once. But it seems you have a problem with men and it suits your narrative. You suggested things she could have done which showed that you have no understanding of what a woman can do in the situation. Yes we can all try to keep ourselves safe but in a woman's case that means not being able to do anything which puts themselves at risk from some men. As mentioned above I suggest you read about or watch the film The Accused and the Netflix documentary about the real life case. As a woman it is not easy to stick up for yourself in those situations as you are outnumbered and possibly weaker. I've asked you before if most men would help how come none did in that carriage. It wasn't an empty carriage in the middle of the night it was packed with football fans. Are you saying that none of her fellow passengers were aware of what was going on? Even the BT policeman she reported it to was no help. Nowhere have I said all men are abusers but there are far more than we are made aware of. I am married,have no problem with most men, have many male friends who I happily spend time with without feeling threatened. However I have been put in situations by men since my teenage years (and I'm now 67) which have never resulted in assault but which have been very uncomfortable for me. I suspect there are very few women who have not had these sort of experiences. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Oct 14, 2024 20:52:37 GMT
You mention Andrew Tate. Do some men see him as a role model? Something to aspire to? Terrifyingly yes, they do. His following is far too large and I’d bet a lot that it’s almost entirely made up of middle aged men who think it’s funny to be like him, or kids who have parents like that or no decent role models. The guy is the scummiest level of scum. Andrew Tate culture can lead to these situations. He'd deny it (yawn) but his mindset gives gives licence to the notion that's what females are there for and that treatment is all they deserve. And you look further. A current candidate for USA President boasted about abusing his fame to sexually assault women. Has he ever been held to account? In some circles it made him more popular. Too much of society as a whole doesn't see it as the problem it is. And perhaps the most distressing aspect is those who think that's just the way it is don't regard it as a problem. |
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Post by madnellie on Oct 14, 2024 23:34:35 GMT
Why is it a personal insult? You seem to think this young woman was at fault.... Pardon? I did not say that or imply that whatsoever. I suggested things she could have done. As a previous poster said this isn't a football problem but a problem in society in general. Stop making out that men are all bad, they are not. If I was on that train I wouldn't have turned a blind eye and most men wouldn't either. I've watched Stoke, home and away for 60 years and I've NEVER seen anything like this, not once. But it seems you have a problem with men and it suits your narrative. No one is making out all men are bad, far from it. I hate that that's the default setting whenever a woman dares complain about something a man does. We're all on here on a forum for a men's sports team. I have signed pics of Banks, Huddy and Mama on my wall. My beloved cat is named Big Mama. Most of us are or have been regular attendees, home and away, travelling and sitting/standing with our male friends and realtives. It would be a very strange thing to spend all this time on if we hated men. Notts clearly doesn't have a problem with men, her "narrative" is one that's familair to women everywhere, for some reason you're just unwilling or unable to see it. Perhaps because you're someone who would step up, so you can't imagine why someone wouldn't? You seem so certain that most men would help, but the actual experience of the lady in the article as well as the women on this thread is, sadly, very different. |
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Post by madnellie on Oct 14, 2024 23:43:15 GMT
I'd prefer to be more sparing with the terms I think. Just feel like it kinda devalues words when they're used really broadly? Laughing and encouraging is bad but doing it is more active somehow. I'm convinced most lads wouldn't actively do it but if you call everyone abusers it's natural to tune it out I think. Don't really know though, just my feeling mate. I agree in a way that the perpetrators of the abuse need to be seen as the real villains but I sometimes think the people watching and laughing are encouraging and perhaps if a few of their mates told them to stop as it wasn't clever or funny, and walked away it might help. I also think that telling those people who laugh that they are also committing sexual abuse might make them realise the seriousness of what they were doing. "If you are neutral in situations of injustice you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality" - Desmond Tutu. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 15, 2024 8:32:31 GMT
Pardon? I did not say that or imply that whatsoever. I suggested things she could have done. As a previous poster said this isn't a football problem but a problem in society in general. Stop making out that men are all bad, they are not. If I was on that train I wouldn't have turned a blind eye and most men wouldn't either. I've watched Stoke, home and away for 60 years and I've NEVER seen anything like this, not once. But it seems you have a problem with men and it suits your narrative. No one is making out all men are bad, far from it. I hate that that's the default setting whenever a woman dares complain about something a man does. We're all on here on a forum for a men's sports team. I have signed pics of Banks, Huddy and Mama on my wall. My beloved cat is named Big Mama. Most of us are or have been regular attendees, home and away, travelling and sitting/standing with our male friends and realtives. It would be a very strange thing to spend all this time on if we hated men. Notts clearly doesn't have a problem with men, her "narrative" is one that's familair to women everywhere, for some reason you're just unwilling or unable to see it. Perhaps because you're someone who would step up, so you can't imagine why someone wouldn't? You seem so certain that most men would help, but the actual experience of the lady in the article as well as the women on this thread is, sadly, very different. Agree, I don't know where the idea that I think or imply that all men are bad comes from. I have stated that I think when you get a group of men who have drunk too much then the herd mentality takes over and many act in a way of which they would be ashamed in any other situation. Football hooliganism is another example. I am sure it can also be true of some women. But that does not excuse the behavior of the men who are watching and encouraging. I agree totally that it is a society problem not a football one but that does not mean that football or football fans should abdicate responsibility when this sort of incident happens. In fact football has probably one of the biggest influences on about half of the young male population and so is probably in a better position than families, schools or other agencies to highlight and disgrace the position. Unfortunately in recent years there have been too many examples of high profile footballers accused of using there profile to abuse young women. |
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Post by str8outtahampton on Oct 15, 2024 9:58:34 GMT
No one is making out all men are bad, far from it. I hate that that's the default setting whenever a woman dares complain about something a man does. We're all on here on a forum for a men's sports team. I have signed pics of Banks, Huddy and Mama on my wall. My beloved cat is named Big Mama. Most of us are or have been regular attendees, home and away, travelling and sitting/standing with our male friends and realtives. It would be a very strange thing to spend all this time on if we hated men. Notts clearly doesn't have a problem with men, her "narrative" is one that's familair to women everywhere, for some reason you're just unwilling or unable to see it. Perhaps because you're someone who would step up, so you can't imagine why someone wouldn't? You seem so certain that most men would help, but the actual experience of the lady in the article as well as the women on this thread is, sadly, very different. Agree, I don't know where the idea that I think or imply that all men are bad comes from. I have stated that I think when you get a group of men who have drunk too much then the herd mentality takes over and many act in a way of which they would be ashamed in any other situation. Football hooliganism is another example. I am sure it can also be true of some women. But that does not excuse the behavior of the men who are watching and encouraging. I agree totally that it is a society problem not a football one but that does not mean that football or football fans should abdicate responsibility when this sort of incident happens. In fact football has probably one of the biggest influences on about half of the young male population and so is probably in a better position than families, schools or other agencies to highlight and disgrace the position. Unfortunately in recent years there have been too many examples of high profile footballers accused of using there profile to abuse young women. The idea that you think or imply that all men are bad comes from the bloke (I am assuming it's a bloke) who has dug himself into a hole on this thread. And the suggestion that you have a problem with men and that this somehow suits your narrative is embarrassing and lazy in equal measure. |
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Post by skip on Oct 15, 2024 11:54:01 GMT
Yes, I read the article from back to front. Whether your a girl or a man, you have to stick up for yourself. Tell them to FO and go to another carriage. It's life , that's how it is sadly. You cannot top these situations unfortunately. What a shitty attitude. Hope you don’t have daughters. or sons. |
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Post by FranktheRabbit on Oct 15, 2024 18:54:53 GMT
What a shitty attitude. Hope you don’t have daughters. Personal insults eh I don't know how other people bring there daughters up but mine have been fine. I have a 3 and we've certainly given them good advice. I'd tell them to avoid situations like that, traveling alone on a train with a load of pissed up away fans. I or their mother would pick them up whatever time of day or night. I'd tell them to avoid certain taxi firms too. Just general stuff. It's how it is unfortunately. Tell me then. What would you tell your daughter to do. i'm listening? So in your little black and white world, your daughters would never get themselves into a sticky situation because you have told them to avoid it? And if they did, they should simply tell the men to fuck off and if they don't do as they say, well that's life unfortunately because you can't stop it from happening. Again, it's a really shitty attitude, and I'm not sorry that it offended you to be honest. |
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Post by paulkoz on Oct 15, 2024 19:34:21 GMT
Blokes who do this kinda thing should have their balls hacked off.
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