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Post by ceejays on Sept 23, 2024 17:12:30 GMT
On a lighter side I have people knock on the door a lot offering their services from pruning my hedges / bushes to conservatories to gutter cleaning to landscape gardeners to odd job men . So today I answered the door to a guy offering window cleaning. I nodded politely said no and took his card not paying an attention to the name until 5 minutes ago . In big bold letters RICKY MARTIN with telephone number . lol
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 23, 2024 17:32:14 GMT
How is that Walters fault? It was John Coates who appointed SS, sacked the then DoF Martin and then appointed JW as DoF/SD. Martin was brought in by Neil as a hands off DoF and there's a good chance SS came in thinking he was more of a manager than a HC. There was bound to be conflict between Walter and Schumacher because John Coates made the appointments the wrong way round but that isn't Shumachers or Walters fault. However once the conflict materialised Coates was always, rightly, going to back Walters. Pelach is Walter's pick and clearly sees himself as a HC and not a manager and as a Spaniard he'll be very familiar with that model because that's how it works in most of Europe. I think you are misreading what's happened and are blaming Walters for doing the job he's been given to do. And that's all very fair. The problem is Walters has gone and sacked a head coach that the majority of fans were happy to give more time on the basis he was just about doing okay and had been tasked with a bit of a project that would take time. Hes added to the problem sticking a head coach in who has very limited relevant experience in terms of what is a very difficult role at Stoke. All I'm hoping now is that somehow Walters pick turns out to be a stroke of absolute genius and by the seasons end we're all waxing lyrical about how astute and visionary Walters is. I feel its a bit of a long shot in all honesty but I'm prepared to get behind Pelach and keep saying my Hail Mary's each night before bed. 🙏 This series of posts was about whether Walters should have the authority to do what he has done and if the HC reports to the SD (which is how it seems to have been implemented here) he clearly does. Whether Walters or Pelach are experienced enough for their jobs is a completely seoerate matter. Schumacher was liked but that in itself isn't a good reason for objecting to the decision. Whether the fans like the HC isn't a good reason for decision making - in fact it's the sign of a poor decusion maker. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Sept 23, 2024 17:43:29 GMT
And that's all very fair. The problem is Walters has gone and sacked a head coach that the majority of fans were happy to give more time on the basis he was just about doing okay and had been tasked with a bit of a project that would take time. Hes added to the problem sticking a head coach in who has very limited relevant experience in terms of what is a very difficult role at Stoke. All I'm hoping now is that somehow Walters pick turns out to be a stroke of absolute genius and by the seasons end we're all waxing lyrical about how astute and visionary Walters is. I feel its a bit of a long shot in all honesty but I'm prepared to get behind Pelach and keep saying my Hail Mary's each night before bed. 🙏 This series of posts was about whether Walters should have the authority to do what he has done and if the HC reports to the SD (which is how it seems to have been implemented here) he clearly does. Whether Walters or Pelach are experienced enough for their jobs is a completely seoerate matter. Schumacher was liked but that in itself isn't a good reason for objecting to the decision. Whether the fans like the HC isn't a good reason for decision making - in fact it's the sign of a poor decusion maker. Not necessarily. I take your point, hard nosed decisions that may be unpopular need to be made by top execs. But completely going against what your main customer base think ie the fans is definitely a big factor in making those decisions and should be factored in. Doesnt mean you don't still make said unpopular decision but you need to plan ahead with the knowledge that you've just upset a lot of your customers meaning the decision made needs to be a good one. And I think a lot of fans are struggling to see that this new chap is a nailed on cracking appointment. Its definitely a bloody risky one, of that there is no doubt.. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 23, 2024 17:45:01 GMT
that’s not how a TD or SD work , the chairman employ them to run the club for them , so it’s totally JW’s job to hire and fire the HC That's how it appears to operate at Stoke, but you have no evidence that it works like that at say bigger clubs in the PL. The man who has responsibility for results on the pitch must have equal authority for decisions with the SD, especially on things like player recruitment, if the SD is his boss that might not happen, in my opinion. This article www.premierleague.com/news/3991780 gives a good overview of the terms DoF, TD and SD. SD is the more modern term and is usually associated with the HC reporting to the SD who has overall control for recruitment. Walters is an SD. Most of the top clubs in the Premier League have SDs including Liverpool, Man Utd and Man City have SDs. You are entitled to an opinion as to how it should work but you are wrong about how it works at the majority of top Premier League clubs and how it is meant to work at Stoke. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 23, 2024 17:50:16 GMT
This series of posts was about whether Walters should have the authority to do what he has done and if the HC reports to the SD (which is how it seems to have been implemented here) he clearly does. Whether Walters or Pelach are experienced enough for their jobs is a completely seoerate matter. Schumacher was liked but that in itself isn't a good reason for objecting to the decision. Whether the fans like the HC isn't a good reason for decision making - in fact it's the sign of a poor decusion maker. Not necessarily. I take your point, hard nosed decisions that may be unpopular need to be made by top execs. But completely going against what your main customer base think ie the fans is definitely a big factor in making those decisions and should be factored in. Doesnt mean you don't still make said unpopular decision but you need to plan ahead with the knowledge that you've just upset a lot of your customers meaning the decision made needs to be a good one. And I think a lot of fans are struggling to see that this new chap is a nailed on cracking appointment. Its definitely a bloody risky one, of that there is no doubt.. If the SD thinks it is better for the clubs long term prospects they have to make that decision - if they are right the fans will come round anyway. If they think getting rid of the current SD and appointing a new one is the right decision for the club but don't make the change because it will be unpopular they are letting the club and the fans down. Making decisions on the grounds of popularity is the calling card of a weak manager. |
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Post by geoff321 on Sept 23, 2024 18:13:42 GMT
That's how it appears to operate at Stoke, but you have no evidence that it works like that at say bigger clubs in the PL. The man who has responsibility for results on the pitch must have equal authority for decisions with the SD, especially on things like player recruitment, if the SD is his boss that might not happen, in my opinion. This article www.premierleague.com/news/3991780 gives a good overview of the terms DoF, TD and SD. SD is the more modern term and is usually associated with the HC reporting to the SD who has overall control for recruitment. Walters is an SD. Most of the top clubs in the Premier League have SDs including Liverpool, Man Utd and Man City have SDs. You are entitled to an opinion as to how it should work but you are wrong about how it works at the majority of top Premier League clubs and how it is meant to work at Stoke. I have no problem with the appointment of a Sporting Director, but I do have a problem with the reporting issue. Of course whatever the structure the key issue is the quality and qualifications of the people employed in various positions. The recent experience at Stoke first under Alex Neil and then under SS hasn't been great. I think we need to get the right team manager in and the rest will fall into place, not sure NP is the man but lets wait and see. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 23, 2024 18:30:46 GMT
Not necessarily. I take your point, hard nosed decisions that may be unpopular need to be made by top execs. But completely going against what your main customer base think ie the fans is definitely a big factor in making those decisions and should be factored in. Doesnt mean you don't still make said unpopular decision but you need to plan ahead with the knowledge that you've just upset a lot of your customers meaning the decision made needs to be a good one. And I think a lot of fans are struggling to see that this new chap is a nailed on cracking appointment. Its definitely a bloody risky one, of that there is no doubt.. If the SD thinks it is better for the clubs long term prospects they have to make that decision - if they are right the fans will come round anyway. If they think getting rid of the current SD and appointing a new one is the right decision for the club but don't make the change because it will be unpopular they are letting the club and the fans down. Making decisions on the grounds of popularity is the calling card of a weak manager. Did you mean getting rid of the current HC. Otherwise I am confused. Presumably the owners are the only ones who can get rid of the SD? |
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Post by gingerninja on Sept 23, 2024 18:33:06 GMT
Let's face it, if this appointment doesn't work out, we will be in a pretty precarious position, if not perilous.
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Post by thornestein on Sept 23, 2024 18:34:14 GMT
Let's face it, if this appointment doesn't work out, we will be in a pretty precarious position, if not perilous. how will ffp work if we have to get rid , doubt we can affford it so let’s hope he comes good |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 23, 2024 18:37:29 GMT
This article www.premierleague.com/news/3991780 gives a good overview of the terms DoF, TD and SD. SD is the more modern term and is usually associated with the HC reporting to the SD who has overall control for recruitment. Walters is an SD. Most of the top clubs in the Premier League have SDs including Liverpool, Man Utd and Man City have SDs. You are entitled to an opinion as to how it should work but you are wrong about how it works at the majority of top Premier League clubs and how it is meant to work at Stoke. I have no problem with the appointment of a Sporting Director, but I do have a problem with the reporting issue. Of course whatever the structure the key issue is the quality and qualifications of the people employed in various positions. The recent experience at Stoke first under Alex Neil and then under SS hasn't been great. I think we need to get the right team manager in and the rest will fall into place, not sure NP is the man but lets wait and see. We don't have a team manager - we have a Head Coach who reports to the Sporting Director. We don't need the right manager we need the right Head Coach - it's a different job. |
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Post by gingerninja on Sept 23, 2024 18:39:34 GMT
I very much want him to succeed, like I have always, just pointing out what a massive next phase this is ahead.
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Post by geoff321 on Sept 23, 2024 18:56:40 GMT
I have no problem with the appointment of a Sporting Director, but I do have a problem with the reporting issue. Of course whatever the structure the key issue is the quality and qualifications of the people employed in various positions. The recent experience at Stoke first under Alex Neil and then under SS hasn't been great. I think we need to get the right team manager in and the rest will fall into place, not sure NP is the man but lets wait and see. We don't have a team manager - we have a Head Coach who reports to the Sporting Director. We don't need the right manager we need the right Head Coach - it's a different job. Come it's the same job with some of workload taken away. Head Coach, team manager, manager, just different titles. It will be an excellent manager that eventually takes us up, the SD will help but it's the man who the players believe in that will get us promotion. |
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Post by clarkeda on Sept 23, 2024 19:06:05 GMT
It's not just Rowett - every manager apart from MoN struggled with the role because it was just two big. Neil came here because the the job was an old school manager job but even he appointed a DoF to take some of the strain. I get why Coates decided to move to the DoF/HHC model. What I find weird is the number of people who still think we have employed a manager and Walters is overstepping the mark as Sporting Director when in fact he's just doing his job. Are we pretending MON did a good job now, he wasn't much better than the rest, his only real positive was doing well in keeping us up, everything else was pretty similar, he also seems to get credit for other people's job which is strange. I dunno, I think a lot of credit has to go to MON for Tymon, Campbell, Souttar and Collins. Without him playing them (and subsequently selling 2) we’d have been in a right fucking mess. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 23, 2024 19:55:29 GMT
We don't have a team manager - we have a Head Coach who reports to the Sporting Director. We don't need the right manager we need the right Head Coach - it's a different job. Come it's the same job with some of workload taken away. Head Coach, team manager, manager, just different titles. It will be an excellent manager that eventually takes us up, the SD will help but it's the man who the players believe in that will get us promotion. It is not just a different title. It's a different job description that requires a different skill set. You just haven't understood that we've fundamentally changed the management structure at the club and keep assuming the HC is still the manager. They aren't. I also provided you with a link that explained how the SD role is supposed to work that completely contradicted your assertion that the top clubs in the Premier League don't work that way and you've provided nothing to back up you claims that the HC in this model is the same as an old school manager. With all due respect you are just plain wrong on this. |
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Sept 23, 2024 19:57:58 GMT
Let's face it, if this appointment doesn't work out, we will be in a pretty precarious position, if not perilous. how will ffp work if we have to get rid , doubt we can affford it so let’s hope he comes good May be why we have a smaller coaching staff and a unknown coach severance will be a lot less presumably |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 23, 2024 19:58:07 GMT
If the SD thinks it is better for the clubs long term prospects they have to make that decision - if they are right the fans will come round anyway. If they think getting rid of the current SD and appointing a new one is the right decision for the club but don't make the change because it will be unpopular they are letting the club and the fans down. Making decisions on the grounds of popularity is the calling card of a weak manager. Did you mean getting rid of the current HC. Otherwise I am confused. Presumably the owners are the only ones who can get rid of the SD? Sorry typo I meant the SD getting rid of the HC - its the owners who get rid of the SD. |
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Post by geoff321 on Sept 23, 2024 20:40:56 GMT
Come it's the same job with some of workload taken away. Head Coach, team manager, manager, just different titles. It will be an excellent manager that eventually takes us up, the SD will help but it's the man who the players believe in that will get us promotion. It is not just a different title. It's a different job description that requires a different skill set. You just haven't understood that we've fundamentally changed the management structure at the club and keep assuming the HC is still the manager. They aren't. I also provided you with a link that explained how the SD role is supposed to work that completely contradicted your assertion that the top clubs in the Premier League don't work that way and you've provided nothing to back up you claims that the HC in this model is the same as an old school manager. With all due respect you are just plain wrong on this. I've read the link you sent, but I posted a quote from Arnie Slot earlier regarding the difference between a head coach and a manager. Perhaps at some point you should let me know how you think the TP role as manager is different from the NP role as Head Coach. Leave out the recruitment issue as we can both see that area has passed to the Sporting Director. Just highlight the day to day issues that TP would have been involved with compared to that of NP today. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 24, 2024 7:03:19 GMT
It is not just a different title. It's a different job description that requires a different skill set. You just haven't understood that we've fundamentally changed the management structure at the club and keep assuming the HC is still the manager. They aren't. I also provided you with a link that explained how the SD role is supposed to work that completely contradicted your assertion that the top clubs in the Premier League don't work that way and you've provided nothing to back up you claims that the HC in this model is the same as an old school manager. With all due respect you are just plain wrong on this. I've read the link you sent, but I posted a quote from Arnie Slot earlier regarding the difference between a head coach and a manager. Perhaps at some point you should let me know how you think the TP role as manager is different from the NP role as Head Coach. Leave out the recruitment issue as we can both see that area has passed to the Sporting Director. Just highlight the day to day issues that TP would have been involved with compared to that of NP today. TP defined the style of play, was responsible for assessing the market, was hands on in contract negotiation, recruited his own players to play the way he wanted them to play, made decisions on who to move on, told the coaches to train them in the way he wanted them to play, picked the team, decided on subs and dealt with a load of crap that goes with being a manager. NP leads the coaching team in developing the players brought on by the SD to play a style of play determined by the SD's recruitment policy, has a relatively minor part in recruitment, picks the team and decides on the subs. It's a different job. It's massively trimmed down and focused entirely on getting the best out of the players recruited by the backroom staff. NP couldn't do TPs job even if he wanted to (he doesn't - he wants to be HC, not a manager) and TP wouldn't put up with not having the level of control he had (he's a manager not a head coach). Pretty much everything did depend on TP and successs was massively dependant on that person in that role. The HC is a cog in a machine and what happens in the backroom is just as important as what NP acheives on the training ground. It's a completely different way of working and if you don't get that you really don't understand how this model is supposed to work. |
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Post by stokiejoe on Sept 24, 2024 7:48:11 GMT
I've read the link you sent, but I posted a quote from Arnie Slot earlier regarding the difference between a head coach and a manager. Perhaps at some point you should let me know how you think the TP role as manager is different from the NP role as Head Coach. Leave out the recruitment issue as we can both see that area has passed to the Sporting Director. Just highlight the day to day issues that TP would have been involved with compared to that of NP today. TP defined the style of play, was responsible for assessing the market, was hands on in contract negotiation, recruited his own players to play the way he wanted them to play, made decisions on who to move on, told the coaches to train them in the way he wanted them to play, picked the team, decided on subs and dealt with a load of crap that goes with being a manager. NP leads the coaching team in developing the players brought on by the SD to play a style of play determined by the SD's recruitment policy, has a relatively minor part in recruitment, picks the team and decides on the subs. It's a different job. It's massively trimmed down and focused entirely on getting the best out of the players recruited by the backroom staff. NP couldn't do TPs job even if he wanted to (he doesn't - he wants to be HC, not a manager) and TP wouldn't put up with not having the level of control he had (he's a manager not a head coach). Pretty much everything did depend on TP and successs was massively dependant on that person in that role. The HC is a cog in a machine and what happens in the backroom is just as important as what NP acheives on the training ground. It's a completely different way of working and if you don't get that you really don't understand how this model is supposed to work. Ok simple question, if it all works the world is your lobster, but if it doesn't who gets the sack? The SD? The HC or both? The SD bought the players and so dictates the style of play, if the HC gets them playing that way he's done his job, however if the team keeps losing it has to go back to the SD surely? |
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Post by geoff321 on Sept 24, 2024 7:49:26 GMT
So in the new structure JW decides the style of play, decides the type of player we need to play that style and gets NP to coach the players in it.
In this structure who pays the price of failure JW or NP?
And which system got us promoted to the PL and kept us there.
Sorry I couldn't show your quote in my reply.
And by the way don't lets make this an argument about TP.
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Post by stokiejoe on Sept 24, 2024 8:02:23 GMT
So in the new structure JW decides the style of play, decides the type of player we need to play that style and gets NP to coach the players in it. In this structure who pays the price of failure JW or NP? And which system got us promoted to the PL and kept us there. Sorry I couldn't show your quote in my reply. And by the way don't lets make this an argument about TP. My question exactly particularly as Walters has no previous experience in this role however well qualified he may be and NP doesn't seem to have much experience either. It's either going to be an inspired pairing or a total disaster and only time will tell which. I'm all for learning by mistakes but it's the fans who pay the price. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 24, 2024 8:12:03 GMT
So in the new structure JW decides the style of play, decides the type of player we need to play that style and gets NP to coach the players in it. In this structure who pays the price of failure JW or NP? And which system got us promoted to the PL and kept us there. Sorry I couldn't show your quote in my reply. And by the way don't lets make this an argument about TP. It was you who bought up TP, not me! In the short term NP. In the long term JW. NPs job is to get results in the here and now and will be judged over a number of games. JW's job is to provide stability and long term progress and will be (or should be) judged over a number of seasons. The whole point of this structure is it is supposed to provide continuity and stability - sacking the HC is not as big a deal as sacking a manager. Sacking the SD on a regular basis undermines the whole point of having an SD. Under this model the appointment of the SD is way more crirical than the appointment of the HC. HCs are meant to be exendable. SDs are a long term commitment. |
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Post by stokiejoe on Sept 24, 2024 8:19:29 GMT
So in the new structure JW decides the style of play, decides the type of player we need to play that style and gets NP to coach the players in it. In this structure who pays the price of failure JW or NP? And which system got us promoted to the PL and kept us there. Sorry I couldn't show your quote in my reply. And by the way don't lets make this an argument about TP. It was you who bought up TP, not me! In the short term NP. In the long term JW. NPs job is to get results in the here and now and will be judged over a number of games. JW's job is to provide stability and long term progress and will be (or should be) judged over a number of seasons. The whole point of this structure is it is supposed to provide continuity and stability - sacking the HC is not as big a deal as sacking a manager. Sacking the SD on a regular basis undermines the whole point of having an SD. Under this model the appointment of the SD is way more crirical than the appointment of the HC. HCs are meant to be exendable. SDs are a long term commitment. To quote a very old saying "no man can serve two masters" this is the formula for an easy blame game. |
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Post by geoff321 on Sept 24, 2024 8:21:47 GMT
So in the new structure JW decides the style of play, decides the type of player we need to play that style and gets NP to coach the players in it. In this structure who pays the price of failure JW or NP? And which system got us promoted to the PL and kept us there. Sorry I couldn't show your quote in my reply. And by the way don't lets make this an argument about TP. It was you who bought up TP, not me! In the short term NP. In the long term JW. NPs job is to get results in the here and now and will be judged over a number of games. JW's job is to provide stability and long term progress and will be (or should be) judged over a number of seasons. The whole point of this structure is it is supposed to provide continuity and stability - sacking the HC is not as big a deal as sacking a manager. Sacking the SD on a regular basis undermines the whole point of having an SD. Under this model the appointment of the SD is way more crirical than the appointment of the HC. HCs are meant to be exendable. SDs are a long term commitment. JW managed to get himself a nice job here then hasn't he? Little experience in the role and according to you little chance of him being blamed for poor results in the next couple of years. |
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Post by rowleyscfc on Sept 24, 2024 8:29:22 GMT
The first half left me with enough positives, we should of had that game done and dusted after half an hour, broke through the lines really well and some real tidy patterns in our play missed that 2 or 3rd goal that would of killed the game.
However, we are not fit enough to play at that intensity for longer than 30 minutes is worrying.
Also defence needs addressing and fast.
Wilmot is a liability with his passing and plays us into pressure far too often.
Tchamadue had a absolutely awful game, and i still have huge questions over his general defensive ability.
Bocat has shown he can face upto a good winger when he kept Whitteker quite the other week, still feels a bit off the pace of the champ but don't thin he will have a problem adjusting.
Gibson is probably a starter for me, and i still don't think he is the best.
Dixon, Phillips and Stevens have got to be banging on the door this week.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 24, 2024 11:31:05 GMT
It was you who bought up TP, not me! In the short term NP. In the long term JW. NPs job is to get results in the here and now and will be judged over a number of games. JW's job is to provide stability and long term progress and will be (or should be) judged over a number of seasons. The whole point of this structure is it is supposed to provide continuity and stability - sacking the HC is not as big a deal as sacking a manager. Sacking the SD on a regular basis undermines the whole point of having an SD. Under this model the appointment of the SD is way more crirical than the appointment of the HC. HCs are meant to be exendable. SDs are a long term commitment. JW managed to get himself a nice job here then hasn't he? Little experience in the role and according to you little chance of him being blamed for poor results in the next couple of years. That isn't Walters fault though is it? The job of SD itself is more bullet proof - it has to be as it takes several seasons of a consistent recruitment policy to pay dividends and it's up to the club to show due diligence in selecting the right man for such an important role. No doubt Walters did his best to sell himself but it's the clubs decision and anyone they appointed to the role would have the same level of backing in the job because that's what the job needs. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 24, 2024 11:33:12 GMT
It was you who bought up TP, not me! In the short term NP. In the long term JW. NPs job is to get results in the here and now and will be judged over a number of games. JW's job is to provide stability and long term progress and will be (or should be) judged over a number of seasons. The whole point of this structure is it is supposed to provide continuity and stability - sacking the HC is not as big a deal as sacking a manager. Sacking the SD on a regular basis undermines the whole point of having an SD. Under this model the appointment of the SD is way more crirical than the appointment of the HC. HCs are meant to be exendable. SDs are a long term commitment. To quote a very old saying "no man can serve two masters" this is the formula for an easy blame game. Who is serving 2 masters? The players report to the HC, the HC reports to the SD and the SD report to the board. |
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Post by stokiejoe on Sept 24, 2024 13:38:04 GMT
To quote a very old saying "no man can serve two masters" this is the formula for an easy blame game. Who is serving 2 masters? The players report to the HC, the HC reports to the SD and the SD report to the board. Excellent theory but I've seen it in practice and it's easy to play one off against the other. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 24, 2024 15:31:39 GMT
Who is serving 2 masters? The players report to the HC, the HC reports to the SD and the SD report to the board. Excellent theory but I've seen it in practice and it's easy to play one off against the other. It is if the managers are idiots. If some pratt further down the chain tries to bypass their immediate manager and stir it up with their manager's manager the managers manager backs the manager and both of them give the practice who is trying it on a bollocking. Simple. I've seen that problem where there is a matrix mamagement structure (somebody genuinely has more than one immediate manager) but as far as I can see there isn't a matrix management structure - its a straightforward pyramid structure with single reporting lines. What exactly do you think the reporting lines are? |
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Post by stokiejoe on Sept 24, 2024 15:51:41 GMT
Excellent theory but I've seen it in practice and it's easy to play one off against the other. It is if the managers are idiots. If some pratt further down the chain tries to bypass their immediate manager and stir it up with their manager's manager the managers manager backs the manager and both of them give the practice who is trying it on a bollocking. Simple. I've seen that problem where there is a matrix mamagement structure (somebody genuinely has more than one immediate manager) but as far as I can see there isn't a matrix management structure - its a straightforward pyramid structure with single reporting lines. What exactly do you think the reporting lines are? Do you really think the players don't talk to both. Thus isn't the army with that rigid reporting structure this is normal life, Walters will talk to players and NP will also. That's when a player or players can play one off against the other. Worked in pyramid structures seen it working and seen it not. Only takes a little resentment. Whose players are they? Walters is the one to chose them but assume NP selects the team and there is the possible flash point particularly if a player is dropped or not chosen to play. |
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