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Post by superleft on Apr 30, 2024 20:40:35 GMT
Well he's got the same win % as Neil has if I've read the stats right- 33%
Neil had 20 games this season and got 23 points, which saw us in 20th place.
Schumacher has 23 games and got 30 points, over a 23 game season would see us in 17th place.
So, a touch better than Neil?
But he had a squad that wasn't his and they were in a downward spiral which he had to stop first.
The verdict would be neither good or bad for me. Full pre season and a few signings he's had a hand in and let's see then.
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Post by degoeystache on Apr 30, 2024 20:44:56 GMT
After the spell of 1 win in 7 games I was incredibly nervous and had that terrible feeling of Nathan Jones mk2 being in charge. We had some really poor performances and what I felt a lot of naivety and could not see how we were going to survive after dropping into the bottom 3.
After the Cardiff defeat we lost 3 out of our next 11 and that was with 4 of those fixtures coming against teams in the top 6. I’m very much behind Schuey as I think he has taken stock and learnt from his mistakes in how he set the team up during that tough spell of 1 win in 7.
When confidence was low and the fans beginning to turn and lose hope he has done a superb job in getting results, showing some quality in our play and keeping us reasonably tight at the back and also instilling a good work rate and team ethic. Fingers crossed we get the recruitment right in the summer and keep moving in the right direction.
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Post by Northy on Apr 30, 2024 20:46:26 GMT
It's been like a chef being asked to cook a gourmet meal with produce from Iceland
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Post by Marc01 on Apr 30, 2024 20:55:40 GMT
Well he's got the same win % as Neil has if I've read the stats right- 33% Neil had 20 games this season and got 23 points, which saw us in 20th place. Schumacher has 23 games and got 30 points, over a 23 game season would see us in 17th place. So, a touch better than Neil? But he had a squad that wasn't his and they were in a downward spiral which he had to stop first. The verdict would be neither good or bad for me. Full pre season and a few signings he's had a hand in and let's see then. Correct stats are… 22 Games pre SS 27.27% Wins Won 6 Drawn 5 Lost 11 Points 23 PPG 1.04 GD-9 23 Games SS 34.78% Wins Won 8 Drawn 6 Lost 9 Points 30 1.30 PPG GD-6 |
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Post by Marc01 on Apr 30, 2024 21:28:04 GMT
Quite a few inaccurate stat posts appear on SS; when they do they always understate performance.
Despite the obsession some have with knocking the bloke, it goes far beyond stats.
The underlying positive philosophy is obvious.
Two of the best performances (Brum and WBA at home) resulted in just one point.
Indeed, the defeat following Brum (Sunderland) had similar issues of many missed chances.
It could easily have been undefeated and 15 points in his first 7 games, but those first 2 defeats became the catalyst for some ‘InstaGrat’ fans to lose their bottle and make judgements after he’d had just a month in the job.
The defeat to Leicester was a bad one, compounded by two stupid penalties, but instead little consideration of the bigger picture.
Some will never give him any credit because they’ve apparently got some superior technical knowledge to him on what goes on in training, line ups, fitness advice on players and tactics.
Some didn’t want him from the start for reasons such as their desire for a foreign coach. I wouldn’t be the slightest bit surprised that some don’t like his accent so will pounce on anything they can to criticise.
Conversely, there’s one bloke who predicted the play offs when he was appointed and, seemingly, can’t handle that was never on the cards but will continually spout any garbage to have a dig, even now.
Contrasted with at least one vehement critic who has suddenly done a disappearing act in recent weeks…
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Post by superleft on Apr 30, 2024 22:05:28 GMT
Thanks for the more accurate stats.
True that there's a bigger picture, but the stats help form the opinion. But it will be just that- opinion. For every 'this was unlucky' you have 'that was lucky' (the 2-1 win against Hull(?) Own goal and fluke rebound off McNally's boot for example)
Those corrected stats probably still illustrate my thoughts on him personally - Bit better than Neil.
And I'm prepared to take a few mitigating factors into play too at this point, like inheriting another managers team, who were performing poorly. Still a small number of games under his belt etc..
Give the bloke a pre season with players not in a relegation scrap, a few of his own and let's see of he can improve his numbers. I hope he does.
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Post by richardparker on Apr 30, 2024 22:18:37 GMT
Has the potential to be a premier league coach ... hopefully in charge of us!
Time to stick with a manager rather than pile on pressure as soon as things don't go to plan.
Too many arse wipes still think we have a divine right to be top 6 and whinge like hell when we're not.
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Post by Marc01 on Apr 30, 2024 22:25:36 GMT
Thanks for the more accurate stats. True that there's a bigger picture, but the stats help form the opinion. But it will be just that- opinion. For every 'this was unlucky' you have 'that was lucky' (the 2-1 win against Hull(?) Own goal and fluke rebound off McNally's boot for example) Those corrected stats probably still illustrate my thoughts on him personally - Bit better than Neil. And I'm prepared to take a few mitigating factors into play too at this point, like inheriting another managers team, who were performing poorly. Still a small number of games under his belt etc.. Give the bloke a pre season with players not in a relegation scrap, a few of his own and let's see of he can improve his numbers. I hope he does. The 2-1 win you refer to was PNE and I understand that it was a deserved win. More often than not you get the luck in front of goal when you attack. Over three times as many shots in that game than PNE. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68454818The Birmingham, Sunderland, PNE and WBA games produced just 4 points but in all of those games combined: Stoke shots: 68 Stoke goals: 6 (2 defensive players, 2 own goals, 2 forwards (inc 1 missed penalty followed up). Opposition shots: 30 Opposition goals: 8 The manager’s philosophy has achieved safety with a goal shy forward line. There’s plenty of mitigation, not least the lack of a goalscorer and daft errors by defensive players. The underlying approach is clear…. |
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Post by mrcoke on May 1, 2024 9:03:52 GMT
After the spell of 1 win in 7 games I was incredibly nervous and had that terrible feeling of Nathan Jones mk2 being in charge. We had some really poor performances and what I felt a lot of naivety and could not see how we were going to survive after dropping into the bottom 3. After the Cardiff defeat we lost 3 out of our next 11 and that was with 4 of those fixtures coming against teams in the top 6. I’m very much behind Schuey as I think he has taken stock and learnt from his mistakes in how he set the team up during that tough spell of 1 win in 7. When confidence was low and the fans beginning to turn and lose hope he has done a superb job in getting results, showing some quality in our play and keeping us reasonably tight at the back and also instilling a good work rate and team ethic. Fingers crossed we get the recruitment right in the summer and keep moving in the right direction. An excellent post that gets more than just a "thumbs up" from me. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2024 9:19:38 GMT
Has the potential to be a premier league coach ... hopefully in charge of us! Time to stick with a manager rather than pile on pressure as soon as things don't go to plan. Too many arse wipes still think we have a divine right to be top 6 and whinge like hell when we're not. When you spend £150m since relegation which dwarfs any other club by a long way, we should have the divine right to be top 6. To have been in a relegation battle that was still a threat up until last week, quite frankly is appalling management from the top down. Absolutely baffles me how many Stoke fans like yourself are happy to accept any old shite, i mean have some standards.... it seems to be such a Stoke fan thing. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on May 1, 2024 10:09:58 GMT
Has the potential to be a premier league coach ... hopefully in charge of us! Time to stick with a manager rather than pile on pressure as soon as things don't go to plan. Too many arse wipes still think we have a divine right to be top 6 and whinge like hell when we're not. When you spend £150m since relegation which dwarfs any other club by a long way, we should have the divine right to be top 6. To have been in a relegation battle that was still a threat up until last week, quite frankly is appalling management from the top down. Absolutely baffles me how many Stoke fans like yourself are happy to accept any old shite, i mean have some standards.... it seems to be such a Stoke fan thing. That spend figure completely misrepresents where the club is at. A good wadge of that money was spent on the first year in the misguided attempt to get us promoted in the first attempt - Rowett made mistakes but he inherited a squad incapable of providing the foundation for a promotion push. The sacking of Rowett represented a change of strategy - we deliberately set about downsizing from a Premier League club to a Championship club in order to avoid FFP sanctions and that downsizing only stopped last summer. Bar the first year when the Premiership core was a dysfunctional mess it's only in the last 12 months that we can claim to have more clout than those around us to finance a tilt at promotion. The previous poster is right in saying the problem is the number of Stoke fans, like yourself, who think we have a divine right to a place in the top six. We don't and those that recognise that are just being realistic about where we are at. The good thing is we have turned a corner and for the the first time since relegation can seriously think about putting in a promotion challenge over the next couple of seasons. |
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Post by Pugsley on May 1, 2024 10:11:47 GMT
Has the potential to be a premier league coach ... hopefully in charge of us! Time to stick with a manager rather than pile on pressure as soon as things don't go to plan. Too many arse wipes still think we have a divine right to be top 6 and whinge like hell when we're not. When you spend £150m since relegation which dwarfs any other club by a long way, we should have the divine right to be top 6. To have been in a relegation battle that was still a threat up until last week, quite frankly is appalling management from the top down. Absolutely baffles me how many Stoke fans like yourself are happy to accept any old shite, i mean have some standards.... it seems to be such a Stoke fan thing. We don't have any right at all. The arrogance that you can just throw money at a problem and expect results is breathtaking. We have an advantage that we have resource but you have to work just as hard to make sure it's used correctly. |
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Post by gaznandi on May 1, 2024 10:14:43 GMT
When you spend £150m since relegation which dwarfs any other club by a long way, we should have the divine right to be top 6. To have been in a relegation battle that was still a threat up until last week, quite frankly is appalling management from the top down. Absolutely baffles me how many Stoke fans like yourself are happy to accept any old shite, i mean have some standards.... it seems to be such a Stoke fan thing. We don't have any right at all. The arrogance that you can just throw money at a problem and expect results is breathtaking. We have an advantage that we have resource but you have to work just as hard to make sure it's used correctly. *See Chelsea for this* |
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Post by superleft on May 1, 2024 10:27:14 GMT
Thanks for the more accurate stats. True that there's a bigger picture, but the stats help form the opinion. But it will be just that- opinion. For every 'this was unlucky' you have 'that was lucky' (the 2-1 win against Hull(?) Own goal and fluke rebound off McNally's boot for example) Those corrected stats probably still illustrate my thoughts on him personally - Bit better than Neil. And I'm prepared to take a few mitigating factors into play too at this point, like inheriting another managers team, who were performing poorly. Still a small number of games under his belt etc.. Give the bloke a pre season with players not in a relegation scrap, a few of his own and let's see of he can improve his numbers. I hope he does. The 2-1 win you refer to was PNE and I understand that it was a deserved win. More often than not you get the luck in front of goal when you attack. Over three times as many shots in that game than PNE. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68454818The Birmingham, Sunderland, PNE and WBA games produced just 4 points but in all of those games combined: Stoke shots: 68 Stoke goals: 6 (2 defensive players, 2 own goals, 2 forwards (inc 1 missed penalty followed up). Opposition shots: 30 Opposition goals: 8 The manager’s philosophy has achieved safety with a goal shy forward line. There’s plenty of mitigation, not least the lack of a goalscorer and daft errors by defensive players. The underlying approach is clear…. No idea how they compare against Neil's shot/goals tally, or what the average is in this league etc so difficult to give an opinion, but you're inclined to believe that's a team who are able to create chances, but not too clever at registering, especially with the stats for the opposition for those games - half the shots and 30% more goals. Not saying anything we all haven't seen there though. My first thought seeing a Schumacher team was positive - on the front foot more. Better on the eye. The difficulty is managers are often the fall guy for inept players and it's also heavily a results business. And the results haven't been amazing. We've gotten out of trouble with just 1 game to spare. So it understandably dampens enthusiasm around the team and manager. But to be fair, I would be inclined to agree those stats are more encouraging than the results, if we can find the right players or improve the ones we've got, lets see what Stoke can do under him. Maybe he's a good enough manager to make us a top-half team next year. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on May 1, 2024 11:05:16 GMT
The 2-1 win you refer to was PNE and I understand that it was a deserved win. More often than not you get the luck in front of goal when you attack. Over three times as many shots in that game than PNE. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68454818The Birmingham, Sunderland, PNE and WBA games produced just 4 points but in all of those games combined: Stoke shots: 68 Stoke goals: 6 (2 defensive players, 2 own goals, 2 forwards (inc 1 missed penalty followed up). Opposition shots: 30 Opposition goals: 8 The manager’s philosophy has achieved safety with a goal shy forward line. There’s plenty of mitigation, not least the lack of a goalscorer and daft errors by defensive players. The underlying approach is clear…. No idea how they compare against Neil's shot/goals tally, or what the average is in this league etc so difficult to give an opinion, but you're inclined to believe that's a team who are able to create chances, but not too clever at registering, especially with the stats for the opposition for those games - half the shots and 30% more goals. Not saying anything we all haven't seen there though. My first thought seeing a Schumacher team was positive - on the front foot more. Better on the eye. The difficulty is managers are often the fall guy for inept players and it's also heavily a results business. And the results haven't been amazing. We've gotten out of trouble with just 1 game to spare. So it understandably dampens enthusiasm around the team and manager. But to be fair, I would be inclined to agree those stats are more encouraging than the results, if we can find the right players or improve the ones we've got, lets see what Stoke can do under him. Maybe he's a good enough manager to make us a top-half team next year. Those stats also says something about our defence - the opposition conversion rate is too high. I really want us to play stylish, attacking football and that that is how Schumacher wants us to play but if your defence is dodgy you are going to get picked off of you commit to attack more and that is exactly what happened during our bad patch. The thing is if you want to be an attacking side you have to have a really good defence to cater for the fact you are exposing the defence more than you would if you sit back. For Schumacher's game plan to work we really have to invest in the defence over the summer - just getting a couple of more effective strikers isn't going to solve the problem. |
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Post by conzdad on May 1, 2024 11:17:04 GMT
I've always said we should stick with Shuey. To keep chopping and changing every time it goes tits up does'nt bring stability which is what is needed.Let's see what he can do with pre season and I think the next 2 windows,and see where he leads us. A top 10 finish next season would be a fairly succesful season for me. Anything better would be a great bonus.
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Post by smiler_andy on May 1, 2024 14:37:07 GMT
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Post by Marc01 on May 1, 2024 20:38:43 GMT
The 2-1 win you refer to was PNE and I understand that it was a deserved win. More often than not you get the luck in front of goal when you attack. Over three times as many shots in that game than PNE. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68454818The Birmingham, Sunderland, PNE and WBA games produced just 4 points but in all of those games combined: Stoke shots: 68 Stoke goals: 6 (2 defensive players, 2 own goals, 2 forwards (inc 1 missed penalty followed up). Opposition shots: 30 Opposition goals: 8 The manager’s philosophy has achieved safety with a goal shy forward line. There’s plenty of mitigation, not least the lack of a goalscorer and daft errors by defensive players. The underlying approach is clear…. No idea how they compare against Neil's shot/goals tally, or what the average is in this league etc so difficult to give an opinion, but you're inclined to believe that's a team who are able to create chances, but not too clever at registering, especially with the stats for the opposition for those games - half the shots and 30% more goals. Not saying anything we all haven't seen there though. My first thought seeing a Schumacher team was positive - on the front foot more. Better on the eye. The difficulty is managers are often the fall guy for inept players and it's also heavily a results business. And the results haven't been amazing. We've gotten out of trouble with just 1 game to spare. So it understandably dampens enthusiasm around the team and manager. But to be fair, I would be inclined to agree those stats are more encouraging than the results, if we can find the right players or improve the ones we've got, lets see what Stoke can do under him. Maybe he's a good enough manager to make us a top-half team next year. No intention of looking up shots stats under AN 🙂 The the long-standing feeling of opposition GK’s often getting an easy ride when playing at Stoke seems to be being broken under this manager. The Sunderland game was included in that 4 game selection due to someone claiming SS abandoned his principles after the Brum defeat. In truth both defeats had a common theme of poor finishing and bad defensive play. A quick check of failing to score compared to clean sheets also shows a positive swing to a value of 6… First 22 Games: Stoke fail to score: 10 (45%) Stoke clean sheets: 5 (22.7%) -5 Schumacher 23 Games: Stoke fail to score: 7 (30%) Stoke clean sheets: 8 (34%) +1 Anyone claiming the stats and overall philosophy isn’t better than it was (under a more experienced manager) is just denying reality for whatever agenda driven reason they have (including those with a small minded prejudice to the manager’s origin and accent!…..) |
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Post by richardparker on May 1, 2024 21:04:01 GMT
Has the potential to be a premier league coach ... hopefully in charge of us! Time to stick with a manager rather than pile on pressure as soon as things don't go to plan. Too many arse wipes still think we have a divine right to be top 6 and whinge like hell when we're not. When you spend £150m since relegation which dwarfs any other club by a long way, we should have the divine right to be top 6. To have been in a relegation battle that was still a threat up until last week, quite frankly is appalling management from the top down. Absolutely baffles me how many Stoke fans like yourself are happy to accept any old shite, i mean have some standards.... it seems to be such a Stoke fan thing. I'm not happy to support any old shite ... but I am happy to support my team. Money spent doesn't always represent money spent well. |
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Post by foxysgloves on May 1, 2024 21:19:12 GMT
Has the potential to be a premier league coach ... hopefully in charge of us! Time to stick with a manager rather than pile on pressure as soon as things don't go to plan. Too many arse wipes still think we have a divine right to be top 6 and whinge like hell when we're not. When you spend £150m since relegation which dwarfs any other club by a long way, we should have the divine right to be top 6. To have been in a relegation battle that was still a threat up until last week, quite frankly is appalling management from the top down. Absolutely baffles me how many Stoke fans like yourself are happy to accept any old shite, i mean have some standards.... it seems to be such a Stoke fan thing. Yeah if only all Stoke fans were like you…. Do you realise how fucking condescending you sound!?? Of course none of us are happy with the shite we’re having to endure. It’s just that unlike some Stoke fans (you) we’re trying to see the positives and support the team and manager who have shown at least some desire and character in recent months. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2024 21:35:17 GMT
As has been said earlier up the thread. He's done a better job than Alex Neil, with pretty-much the same squad at his disposal.
If we'd have gotten hold of a more commanding Centre Half, and an even half-competent Centre Forward (I'm thinking Kiefer Moore here) then we'd be significantly better off.
We're going to see some churn this summer so I'm happy to see Schumacher at the helm next year, looking ahead to a more balanced squad.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on May 2, 2024 12:04:31 GMT
As has been said earlier up the thread. He's done a better job than Alex Neil, with pretty-much the same squad at his disposal. If we'd have gotten hold of a more commanding Centre Half, and an even half-competent Centre Forward (I'm thinking Kiefer Moore here) then we'd be significantly better off. We're going to see some churn this summer so I'm happy to see Schumacher at the helm next year, looking ahead to a more balanced squad. A slightly better job than the man we sacked for being shite. About sums him up for me. Beige |
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Post by mtrstudent on May 2, 2024 14:43:56 GMT
He coached us to play in a more entertaining way. He noticed Junior and Bae are good. Most importantly it feels like we don't just give up after a bad spell or going a goal down.
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Post by biddulphchav on May 2, 2024 14:57:28 GMT
He coached us to play in a more entertaining way. He noticed Junior and Bae are good. Most importantly it feels like we don't just give up after a bad spell or going a goal down. We actually came back from being a goal down on more than one occasion after SS came in. I saw a stat at the time that said we’d not done that for a long long time. We definitely looked like we had more fight than previously. That said, I don’t think Schumacher did a good job, he did ok and that’s about it in my view. As someone above pointed out, based on the half season he had, extended over a full season it would put us 17th or so. So yeah, not that good in fairness and I don’t think the squad is as bad as some are making out. |
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Post by mtrstudent on May 2, 2024 15:01:24 GMT
He coached us to play in a more entertaining way. He noticed Junior and Bae are good. Most importantly it feels like we don't just give up after a bad spell or going a goal down. We actually came back from being a goal down on more than one occasion after SS came in. I saw a stat at the time that said we’d not done that for a long long time. We definitely looked like we had more fight than previously. That said, I don’t think Schumacher did a good job, he did ok and that’s about it in my view. As someone above pointed out, based on the half season he had, extended over a full season it would put us 17th or so. So yeah, not that good in fairness and I don’t think the squad is as bad as some are making out. I also don't think the squad's that bad, in the sense we're a few players away from being decent enough. But a few players are enough to break the balance of the whole team. And our finishing was disastrous. Not sure if Schuey is better than average but he's earned a go for me. |
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jm
Academy Starlet
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Post by jm on May 2, 2024 15:10:18 GMT
Once the players realised they actually could get relegated and SJW arrived to galvanise the club, SS turned it around to get us out of the relegation zone with 18 points from 11 games which is play off form. Not convinced we have a poor squad and SS did well to get results under huge pressure. Deserves another season for sure.
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Post by biddulphchav on May 2, 2024 15:10:56 GMT
We actually came back from being a goal down on more than one occasion after SS came in. I saw a stat at the time that said we’d not done that for a long long time. We definitely looked like we had more fight than previously. That said, I don’t think Schumacher did a good job, he did ok and that’s about it in my view. As someone above pointed out, based on the half season he had, extended over a full season it would put us 17th or so. So yeah, not that good in fairness and I don’t think the squad is as bad as some are making out. I also don't think the squad's that bad, in the sense we're a few players away from being decent enough. But a few players are enough to break the balance of the whole team. And our finishing was disastrous. Not sure if Schuey is better than average but he's earned a go for me. Oh he’s definitely earned the right to continue in the job, totally agree. Don’t think there is an argument to get rid of him now, would be extremely extremely harsh. I do hope we are not giving him free rein in the transfer market though. We changed our recruitment model last summer and in some ways it has paid off. Bae, Burger and Manhoef for example look like really good additions, and Mmae too if he can get a few goals and get his attitude right. My biggest concern with having fired the DoF is we go back fully to the manager led recruitment and bring in his players - visions of Ennis, Johnson, Pearson and Gooch all over again. Hopefully the people running the club have not had a knee jerk reaction to AN and keep the faith. |
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Post by Picasso on May 2, 2024 15:17:52 GMT
It’s not time for a verdict.
Schumacher has improved things and it’s probably wrong to use his full stats here, to judge him - Once he’d had time to suss things out a little, the results and performances started picking up. If you take his last 11 games (half of his time here, give or take), then he’s churning out play-off potential - And that’s with a squad that is largely not his.
This is a WIP.
Good signs.
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Post by biddulphchav on May 2, 2024 15:23:26 GMT
It’s not time for a verdict. Schumacher has improved things and it’s probably wrong to use his full stats here, to judge him - Once he’d had time to suss things out a little, the results and performances started picking up. If you take his last 11 games (half of his time here, give or take), then he’s churning out play-off potential - And that’s with a squad that is largely not his. This is a WIP. Good signs. I think you have to judge him based on his overall record. Don’t think it’s quite right to pick a small sample games to say the signs are good, we had similar periods under AN. We’re also supposedly moving away from a model where the manager brings in his own players, to a more club / DoF driven recruitment style - so the squad will never really be ‘his’ as such. I can see why people think the signs are good, and there are some good ones for sure, but I think we’ve got to be careful. A poor start to next season and the axe will be getting sharpened as I don’t think he’s got that much credit in the bank so far |
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Post by Picasso on May 2, 2024 15:30:59 GMT
It’s not time for a verdict. Schumacher has improved things and it’s probably wrong to use his full stats here, to judge him - Once he’d had time to suss things out a little, the results and performances started picking up. If you take his last 11 games (half of his time here, give or take), then he’s churning out play-off potential - And that’s with a squad that is largely not his. This is a WIP. Good signs. I think you have to judge him based on his overall record. Don’t think it’s quite right to pick a small sample games to say the signs are good, we had similar periods under AN. We’re also supposedly moving away from a model where the manager brings in his own players, to a more club / DoF driven recruitment style - so the squad will never really be ‘his’ as such. I can see why people think the signs are good, and there are some good ones for sure, but I think we’ve got to be careful. A poor start to next season and the axe will be getting sharpened as I don’t think he’s got that much credit in the bank so far I get where you’re coming from, but the sample of games I’ve pointed to are his most recent 50% - There’s a clear improvement and I think that has to have, at least something, to do with his sussing out of the squad, players, set ups etc. With the new model of recruitment, Schumacher will still have input and it will become more of ‘his’ squad than it currently is. There’s definitely a need for a good start to the season, as you say… |
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