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Post by gawa on Feb 15, 2024 14:46:28 GMT
Guess it depends on what is considered antisemitism here. Is this number of reports of incidents of antisemitism or convictions/charges of antisemitism. I presume the former. The uk press froth at the mouth at the chance of reporting antisemitism. In the aftermath of October 7th I heard about a young Palestine child in America murdered by their landlord for being Palestine. Yet in the uk alot of the antisemitism I've heard reported is someone ripping down a poster about "missing people" thousands of miles away in Israel. You can sure bet if there was a serious incident it would be on all the front pages of the newspapers. "A vehicle with a Palestinian flag attached, and with the occupant shaking their fist in the air through an open window, had driven past a synagogue in Hertfordshire." Like this is a pretty woke example and the first in the Article. If someone drove past a Russian orthodox church with a Ukraine flag waving their fist would thst be a hate crime? "In at least 427 instances, the phrase ‘Free Palestine’ was employed in speech or writing." Again over 10% of them are from people saying free Palestine. How many hate crimes do we have for people saying free Ukraine? Another 300 odd are for highlighting the influence which Israel has over the media and government. Apparently that's antisemitism: "Conspiracy theories were evident in 319 of the 4,103 incidents reported in 2023, almost double the 2022 figure. The vast majority “spoke of malign Jewish power over global politics, media, finance and other walks of life”." It's funny that Suella Braverman can call people opposing genocide terrorist sympathisers and hate marchers. Yet you say that about an Israel march and.... yep you guessed it "antisemetic". So when antisemitism = criticising Israel. And when Israel has killed 10s of thousands of women and children. Then I expect criticism of Israel to increase. And by no surprise that means antisemitism increases. Because in Christian britian, Israeli and Jewish people are more important than any other ethnicity. And if we don't allow them to kill kids criticism free then we're all antisemetic.
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Israel
Feb 15, 2024 15:14:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by gawa on Feb 15, 2024 15:14:50 GMT
I was speaking in a General sense but In the case of the Manchester Bomber yes it was US and UK via NATO deciding that Regime Change, of Gaddafi, was required. Although most would agree with the decision, including the Manchester Bomber, there can be unintended consequences if you meddle in the affairs of other Countries. Yes the Iraq War where the US and UK led "the Coalition of the Willing" to remove the WMD that Saddam didn't have created the conditions for ISIS to emerge and subsequently the War in Syria where the Manchester Bomber was radicalised. ISIS ideology was an latent ancient one for the establishment of a Muslim Caliphate and these two events helped to spread that ideology within the Muslim World and Globally What I meant by the current Citizens of UK was they are not responsible for Colonisation. Governments past and present are and that legacy is inherited. In today's conflicts UK has strongly come down on the side of Israel and Ukraine and provided weapons to both. I'm not judging here whether it's the right choice just that it's a fact. Would you rule out a Terrorist attach in UK sometime in the future by a disgruntled Palestinian or Russian who may have lost Family and blames UK, I wouldn't. The UK has the largest footprint Globally simply because it historically had the largest Empire. Government are keen to maintain that footprint on one level via The Commonwealth of Nations which now includes some Countries that were never Colonised E.g. Rwanda. The British Monarch is it's figurehead but the reason Government wish to maintain it is Influence and Trade. Trade UK/Commonwealth declined on UK joining EEC. Since Brexit UK is trying to reinvigorate especially with India in the form of a Trade Deal. One of the main sticking points in negotiations is the amount of Visas UK will grant India. There is always quid pro quo in Global matters. We saw quite recent clashes on the streets of Leicester between Indian Hindu's and Pakistan Muslims. These were instigated by recent arrivals from India who were emboldened by Modi's move towards Apartheid in India. They then radicalise the 2nd and 3rd Generation you mention Newton's 3rd Law States for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. It main remain below the surface for sometime gestating it may only be a ripple. When I say immigrants and their descendants have contributed to British Society it would take too long to explore each in detail but to give an example of each Farage (Hugeunot) Rothschild (Jewish escaping persecution) Tony Blair (Irish) Sunak (India ) Jessica Ennis-Hill (Windrush) You seem to be "defending" or giving examples of individual successful immigrants. I don't know why, of course there have been good immigrants. I don't think that is the issue. As others have said in other posts, in this changed world, we have a responsibility to be as careful as possible who we let in AND given the change in population growth, arguably the effects of immigration of the past should not determine the policy going forward.And it is certainly not just about the economy, the culture ( you have alluded to Hindu/ Muslim clashes over an issue originating in the Indian sub continent) , culture clash and the hidden pressure on transport, housing, education, the social services and the health service may result in a fall in the quality of life.....irrespective of previous immigrantion. In my opinion. You've got to ask yourself who benefits from immigration. - Landlords and people invested in property- more demand means inflated prices. - Private health care companies - More demand on NHS means more people go private. - Business owners and share holders - They can hire staff below the going rate increasing profits. - Governments - If we had no immigrants then the elite and wealthy would be under attack. Immigrants make a perfect distraction. Etc.. etc.. Lots of people get very rich off the back of immigration. Alot of those people who get rich from it are some of the biggest donors to our political parties. There's a reason why the tories and Labour focus on "smashing the gangs" and "stopping the boats" because this is a small percentile of the problem. If they really cared they'd try to curb it all but they don't. With the above said there is of course an argument to be made for immigration and one of those is the ageing population we have. Less children being born, people having kids at older ages, old people living longer etc.. The demographics of the nation without immigration leaves a shortfall in terms of the Labour required to support the population. But what's the cause of people having less kids? Well people can't afford homes. People can't afford childcare. People's mental and physical health is shot. People struggle to get housing in the areas they grew up in with their support networks etc.. But why would you try to address any of the above? More social housing means less demand which means less profits. Less immigrants means paying British people more money which means less profits. Less immigrants means less demand for health care which means less people availing of private health care which means less profits. So why not do what's best for the rich? Immigrate people to fulfill the shortfall on Labour while increasing demand on housing and services and driving up profits for the 0.1%. That's my take on it. I'm not as educated as others on the subject. And I've got a very strong dislike for the billionaires in this country too so may be bias.
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Israel
Feb 15, 2024 15:15:12 GMT
Post by wannabee on Feb 15, 2024 15:15:12 GMT
I never said that Blair wasn't born in Scotland In a discussion about Immigrants and their descendents I gave an example of several ethic Groups that have mass emigrated to UK and become woven into British Society. Blair was one example I gave. Jesus was Born in a Stable, it didn't make him a Horse. [br Your last statement Wannabee, does that imply if say a Libyan gained asylum in France, he could not become French....or is it too intellectually challenging for me to understand? This will be my last comment on this as I don't want to derail the thread. I'll try and answer both of your recent posts here if I can Of course I agree immigration has the potential to be positive or negative, what I mean by Govern is that our Government will dictate what Immigration Policy will be and Economics will feature very highly in formulating that Policy. It is currently, with the Points system identifies employment skill shortages. There is no other criteria that I'm aware of. The other Major cohort of Immigrants contributing to Record Numbers in the last two years are Students, Graduates, Post Graduates and PhD and their dependents required to fill the funding gap in Universities Budgets. There are currently about 150,000 Chinese Students studying at various levels in uK Universities. In 2023 the Home Office rejected 1100 Chinese Student Applications. Do you have confidence that Home Office keep track of each Student that they don't breach their Visa conditions, no me neither. I'm saying that the vast majority will have no malevolent intent, but its not Control of Immigration To answer your post above, it depends, and I'm interpreting you to mean think and behave as a Native French Person No Man is an Island - John Donne. The proposition being that everyone is connected by Humanity but shaped by our Environment If the Libyan chap seeks refuge in France under duress with little skills or education he is very likely to integrate in a comfort zone amongst people in very similar circumstances stances to himself. If he doesn't use his time to learn the French Language or gain Educational Skills to elevate his economic status he will not actually integrate into French Society and could easily just be living in Tripoli without the fear factor. He may be very content with this situation. If he goes on to have Children they will be born into a French Society that largely just tolerates them. They have no lived experience of his father's problems in Libya. There is a good chance they will grow up to resent their adopted Country and a small percentage may even become Radicalised If the Libyan chap a Surgeon, also a Refugee say who has been outspoken in Libya against the Government. The likelihood is that he will resume his Occupation and live amongst French Society and adopt the culture without abandoning his own. His Children will go to fully integrated Schools and become more integrated into French Society even than their Father. Integration and Language is key. Some immigrant Communities choose to integrate others don't (generalisation) The Hugeunots were always welcomed so never an issue The Jews partly for Religious reasons to be safe and near a synagogue didn’t but later did. The Indian and Pakistani Immigrants tend to form their own Communities and are much less integrated. The Hindu's less so than Muslims. The Irsh and Caribbeans initially worked in menial Jobs and sought to create a community within a community which reflected as somewhat reluctant immigrants what they believed reflected their homeland. The Irish have very much moved on from that. The Caribbeans less so. Sorry for the length of the monologue
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Post by gawa on Feb 15, 2024 15:19:42 GMT
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Post by gawa on Feb 15, 2024 15:27:15 GMT
In reference to the article earlier about the CST have a read on this. Click on and read the thread of tweets:
Some of the incidents reported in part 5 are very interesting. Basically people didn't get holiday approved at work so that's antisemetic...
And to think this is funded from our taxes too. Why do Christians, Sikhs, Muslims or Buddhists not get publicly funded community security trusts?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 15, 2024 15:35:23 GMT
[br Your last statement Wannabee, does that imply if say a Libyan gained asylum in France, he could not become French....or is it too intellectually challenging for me to understand? This will be my last comment on this as I don't want to derail the thread. I'll try and answer both of your recent posts here if I can Of course I agree immigration has the potential to be positive or negative, what I mean by Govern is that our Government will dictate what Immigration Policy will be and Economics will feature very highly in formulating that Policy. It is currently, with the Points system identifies employment skill shortages. There is no other criteria that I'm aware of. The other Major cohort of Immigrants contributing to Record Numbers in the last two years are Students, Graduates, Post Graduates and PhD and their dependents required to fill the funding gap in Universities Budgets. There are currently about 150,000 Chinese Students studying at various levels in uK Universities. In 2023 the Home Office rejected 1100 Chinese Student Applications. Do you have confidence that Home Office keep track of each Student that they don't breach their Visa conditions, no me neither. I'm saying that the vast majority will have no malevolent intent, but its not Control of Immigration To answer your post above, it depends, and I'm interpreting you to mean think and behave as a Native French Person No Man is an Island - John Donne. The proposition being that everyone is connected by Humanity but shaped by our Environment If the Libyan chap seeks refuge in France under duress with little skills or education he is very likely to integrate in a comfort zone amongst people in very similar circumstances stances to himself. If he doesn't use his time to learn the French Language or gain Educational Skills to elevate his economic status he will not actually integrate into French Society and could easily just be living in Tripoli without the fear factor. He may be very content with this situation. If he goes on to have Children they will be born into a French Society that largely just tolerates them. They have no lived experience of his father's problems in Libya. There is a good chance they will grow up to resent their adopted Country and a small percentage may even become Radicalised If the Libyan chap a Surgeon, also a Refugee say who has been outspoken in Libya against the Government. The likelihood is that he will resume his Occupation and live amongst French Society and adopt the culture without abandoning his own. His Children will go to fully integrated Schools and become more integrated into French Society even than their Father. Integration and Language is key. Some immigrant Communities choose to integrate others don't (generalisation) The Hugeunots were always welcomed so never an issue The Jews partly for Religious reasons to be safe and near a synagogue didn’t but later did. The Indian and Pakistani Immigrants tend to form their own Communities and are much less integrated. The Hindu's less so than Muslims. The Irsh and Caribbeans initially worked in menial Jobs and sought to create a community within a community which reflected as somewhat reluctant immigrants what they believed reflected their homeland. The Irish have very much moved on from that. The Caribbeans less so. Sorry for the length of the monologue From what I can gather I think you are saying some integrate , some don't but none become French. And immigration can be both positive and negative. And no man is an island....can a woman be an island?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 15, 2024 16:02:21 GMT
This is the kind of shit I was talking about before, a former editor of The Sun naturally. It does neither Muslims nor Jews any favours as it just stokes hatred.......... Kavanagh is a disgusting racist, how on earth that went unchallenged is a disgrace. Just imagine the uproar if somebody had said on TV, that by definition, all Jews are islamophobic!
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 15, 2024 16:04:54 GMT
Guess it depends on what is considered antisemitism here. Is this number of reports of incidents of antisemitism or convictions/charges of antisemitism. I presume the former. The uk press froth at the mouth at the chance of reporting antisemitism. In the aftermath of October 7th I heard about a young Palestine child in America murdered by their landlord for being Palestine. Yet in the uk alot of the antisemitism I've heard reported is someone ripping down a poster about "missing people" thousands of miles away in Israel. You can sure bet if there was a serious incident it would be on all the front pages of the newspapers. "A vehicle with a Palestinian flag attached, and with the occupant shaking their fist in the air through an open window, had driven past a synagogue in Hertfordshire." Like this is a pretty woke example and the first in the Article. If someone drove past a Russian orthodox church with a Ukraine flag waving their fist would thst be a hate crime? "In at least 427 instances, the phrase ‘Free Palestine’ was employed in speech or writing."Again over 10% of them are from people saying free Palestine. How many hate crimes do we have for people saying free Ukraine? Another 300 odd are for highlighting the influence which Israel has over the media and government. Apparently that's antisemitism: "Conspiracy theories were evident in 319 of the 4,103 incidents reported in 2023, almost double the 2022 figure. The vast majority “spoke of malign Jewish power over global politics, media, finance and other walks of life”." It's funny that Suella Braverman can call people opposing genocide terrorist sympathisers and hate marchers. Yet you say that about an Israel march and.... yep you guessed it "antisemetic". So when antisemitism = criticising Israel. And when Israel has killed 10s of thousands of women and children. Then I expect criticism of Israel to increase. And by no surprise that means antisemitism increases. Because in Christian britian, Israeli and Jewish people are more important than any other ethnicity. And if we don't allow them to kill kids criticism free then we're all antisemetic. Like everything it's always in the context. If I went up to a British Jew who I had no knowledge on their opinion around Israel and shouted "Free Palestine" that is totally unacceptable. If I was on a demo and a British Jew was defending Israel's actions and I shouted "Free Palestine" then it would be ridiculous to say that is anti-Jewish hate. I suspect there's a mixture of both in those numbers. Whilst the first example is wrong it's no different to when ordinary law abiding British Muslims get told they should condemn the actions of an Islamic terrorist, so going back to my original point it's about decent people calling out bigotry on both sides...............
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Post by gawa on Feb 15, 2024 16:09:24 GMT
Guess it depends on what is considered antisemitism here. Is this number of reports of incidents of antisemitism or convictions/charges of antisemitism. I presume the former. The uk press froth at the mouth at the chance of reporting antisemitism. In the aftermath of October 7th I heard about a young Palestine child in America murdered by their landlord for being Palestine. Yet in the uk alot of the antisemitism I've heard reported is someone ripping down a poster about "missing people" thousands of miles away in Israel. You can sure bet if there was a serious incident it would be on all the front pages of the newspapers. "A vehicle with a Palestinian flag attached, and with the occupant shaking their fist in the air through an open window, had driven past a synagogue in Hertfordshire." Like this is a pretty woke example and the first in the Article. If someone drove past a Russian orthodox church with a Ukraine flag waving their fist would thst be a hate crime? "In at least 427 instances, the phrase ‘Free Palestine’ was employed in speech or writing."Again over 10% of them are from people saying free Palestine. How many hate crimes do we have for people saying free Ukraine? Another 300 odd are for highlighting the influence which Israel has over the media and government. Apparently that's antisemitism: "Conspiracy theories were evident in 319 of the 4,103 incidents reported in 2023, almost double the 2022 figure. The vast majority “spoke of malign Jewish power over global politics, media, finance and other walks of life”." It's funny that Suella Braverman can call people opposing genocide terrorist sympathisers and hate marchers. Yet you say that about an Israel march and.... yep you guessed it "antisemetic". So when antisemitism = criticising Israel. And when Israel has killed 10s of thousands of women and children. Then I expect criticism of Israel to increase. And by no surprise that means antisemitism increases. Because in Christian britian, Israeli and Jewish people are more important than any other ethnicity. And if we don't allow them to kill kids criticism free then we're all antisemetic. Like everything it's always in the context. If I went up to a British Jew who I had no knowledge on their opinion around Israel and shouted "Free Palestine" that is totally unacceptable. If I was on a demo and a British Jew was defending Israel's actions and I shouted "Free Palestine" then it would be ridiculous to say that is anti-Jewish hate. I suspect there's a mixture of both in those numbers. Whilst the first example is wrong it's no different to when ordinary law abiding British Muslims get told they should condemn the actions of an Islamic terrorist, so going back to my original point it's about decent people calling out bigotry on both sides............... Read the thread about the CST I posted above. Basically sums up the organisation which is calculating these incident numbers.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 15, 2024 16:19:08 GMT
Like everything it's always in the context. If I went up to a British Jew who I had no knowledge on their opinion around Israel and shouted "Free Palestine" that is totally unacceptable. If I was on a demo and a British Jew was defending Israel's actions and I shouted "Free Palestine" then it would be ridiculous to say that is anti-Jewish hate. I suspect there's a mixture of both in those numbers. Whilst the first example is wrong it's no different to when ordinary law abiding British Muslims get told they should condemn the actions of an Islamic terrorist, so going back to my original point it's about decent people calling out bigotry on both sides............... Read the thread about the CST I posted above. Basically sums up the organisation which is calculating these incident numbers. I saw the thread on Twitter earlier. I absolutely have doubts about the credibility of the CST and wonder why the £18m the government provide couldn't go to the police direct to help in the areas where there is a large Jewish population? I'm not a fan of the police at times either truth be told but I think their own figures around hate crime would give more of a balanced view. That said I have absolutely no doubt that incidents of antisemitism will be on the rise since Oct 7th and strongly condemn anyone that chooses to conflate the actions of (in my opinion) a rogue state with bigotry against a British Jew who may have absolutely no physical or emotional connection to Israel.........
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Israel
Feb 15, 2024 20:19:56 GMT
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 15, 2024 20:19:56 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 15, 2024 21:13:45 GMT
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Post by roylandstoke on Feb 15, 2024 22:02:31 GMT
If commenting on the actions of a racist, apartheid government that is plausibly committing genocide, makes you an anti-Semite, then clearly I, and many, many Jews are anti-semites.
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Israel
Feb 15, 2024 22:47:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by wagsastokie on Feb 15, 2024 22:47:40 GMT
This will be my last comment on this as I don't want to derail the thread. I'll try and answer both of your recent posts here if I can Of course I agree immigration has the potential to be positive or negative, what I mean by Govern is that our Government will dictate what Immigration Policy will be and Economics will feature very highly in formulating that Policy. It is currently, with the Points system identifies employment skill shortages. There is no other criteria that I'm aware of. The other Major cohort of Immigrants contributing to Record Numbers in the last two years are Students, Graduates, Post Graduates and PhD and their dependents required to fill the funding gap in Universities Budgets. There are currently about 150,000 Chinese Students studying at various levels in uK Universities. In 2023 the Home Office rejected 1100 Chinese Student Applications. Do you have confidence that Home Office keep track of each Student that they don't breach their Visa conditions, no me neither. I'm saying that the vast majority will have no malevolent intent, but its not Control of Immigration To answer your post above, it depends, and I'm interpreting you to mean think and behave as a Native French Person No Man is an Island - John Donne. The proposition being that everyone is connected by Humanity but shaped by our Environment If the Libyan chap seeks refuge in France under duress with little skills or education he is very likely to integrate in a comfort zone amongst people in very similar circumstances stances to himself. If he doesn't use his time to learn the French Language or gain Educational Skills to elevate his economic status he will not actually integrate into French Society and could easily just be living in Tripoli without the fear factor. He may be very content with this situation. If he goes on to have Children they will be born into a French Society that largely just tolerates them. They have no lived experience of his father's problems in Libya. There is a good chance they will grow up to resent their adopted Country and a small percentage may even become Radicalised If the Libyan chap a Surgeon, also a Refugee say who has been outspoken in Libya against the Government. The likelihood is that he will resume his Occupation and live amongst French Society and adopt the culture without abandoning his own. His Children will go to fully integrated Schools and become more integrated into French Society even than their Father. Integration and Language is key. Some immigrant Communities choose to integrate others don't (generalisation) The Hugeunots were always welcomed so never an issue The Jews partly for Religious reasons to be safe and near a synagogue didn’t but later did. The Indian and Pakistani Immigrants tend to form their own Communities and are much less integrated. The Hindu's less so than Muslims. The Irsh and Caribbeans initially worked in menial Jobs and sought to create a community within a community which reflected as somewhat reluctant immigrants what they believed reflected their homeland. The Irish have very much moved on from that. The Caribbeans less so. Sorry for the length of the monologue From what I can gather I think you are saying some integrate , some don't but none become French. And immigration can be both positive and negative. And no man is an island....can a woman be an island? Not sure on the island But apparently she can have a dick
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Post by Gods on Feb 15, 2024 23:08:16 GMT
Howard Jacobson on Newsnight, what a horrible bastard, slagging the BBC for showing too many images of Israeli atrocities, not a word of sympathy or remorse.
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Post by metalhead on Feb 15, 2024 23:33:36 GMT
Like everything it's always in the context. If I went up to a British Jew who I had no knowledge on their opinion around Israel and shouted "Free Palestine" that is totally unacceptable. If I was on a demo and a British Jew was defending Israel's actions and I shouted "Free Palestine" then it would be ridiculous to say that is anti-Jewish hate. I suspect there's a mixture of both in those numbers. Whilst the first example is wrong it's no different to when ordinary law abiding British Muslims get told they should condemn the actions of an Islamic terrorist, so going back to my original point it's about decent people calling out bigotry on both sides............... Read the thread about the CST I posted above. Basically sums up the organisation which is calculating these incident numbers. I've made very little contribution to this thread, as I'd prefer to avoid any of the obvious conflict that's simmering. I don't really know what the CST is, however it kind of looks very similar to an organization referred to as Tell MAMA. They are Government funded and investigate Islamaphobia, much like the CST seem to do the same for Anti-semitism. After Lee Rigby was murdered, they reported a HUGE rise in Islamaphobia. If you search for Tell Mama Woolwich huge spikes were reported and published in the media. Then... www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10093568/The-truth-about-the-wave-of-attacks-on-Muslims-after-Woolwich-murder.htmlThe CST and Tell Mama are great examples of when non-independent organizations fill a void that really needs to be filled by objective individuals. Just like Tell Mama, the CST are almost certainly falsifying the statistics to ensure maximum impact.
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Israel
Feb 16, 2024 6:15:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 16, 2024 6:15:10 GMT
From what I can gather I think you are saying some integrate , some don't but none become French. And immigration can be both positive and negative. And no man is an island....can a woman be an island? Not sure on the island But apparently she can have a dick Surely the Isle of Mann is an Island?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 18, 2024 20:25:52 GMT
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Israel
Feb 18, 2024 23:52:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by musik on Feb 18, 2024 23:52:35 GMT
It looks like a (dead) sand box. What is it to fight about?
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Israel
Feb 19, 2024 1:02:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by cvillestokie on Feb 19, 2024 1:02:40 GMT
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Israel
Feb 19, 2024 1:53:09 GMT
Post by wannabee on Feb 19, 2024 1:53:09 GMT
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Post by scfcno1fan on Feb 19, 2024 7:22:22 GMT
28,400 dead Palestinians estimated so far, mostly women and children is a line from a bbc article this morning.
Mostly women and children?!
Weren’t we led to believe they were eliminating terrorists?
Now they’ve set a deadline of 10 March for hostages to be released or else they will pummel Rafah to the ground.
God knows how they are getting away with all this.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 19, 2024 11:18:25 GMT
28,400 dead Palestinians estimated so far, mostly women and children is a line from a bbc article this morning. Mostly women and children?! Weren’t we led to believe they were eliminating terrorists? Now they’ve set a deadline of 10 March for hostages to be released or else they will pummel Rafah to the ground. God knows how they are getting away with all this. I think if Hamas released all remaining hostages then Israel will become a global pariah. Why don’t they release the hostages? It ends the lame excuse Israel are using to destroy Gaza and its citizens, and it will end the last thread of justification the wider world are giving them to continue their atrocities. It isn’t as if Hamas can win the war or fight back with any impact. They will never be backed with military support or weapons by the majority of the world. So the best possible chance of seeing an end to the suffering of Palestinians is to free the last hostages and then ask the world for help if Israel don’t immediately cease and desist. As for Netenyahu, the world should be sanctioning Israel as they did with Russia. He doesn’t have the power over his people like Putin does. He can be forced out. But it requires the US to oppose what he is doing. I think that has a decent chance of happening f all hostages were released.
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Israel
Feb 19, 2024 11:42:28 GMT
Post by wannabee on Feb 19, 2024 11:42:28 GMT
28,400 dead Palestinians estimated so far, mostly women and children is a line from a bbc article this morning. Mostly women and children?! Weren’t we led to believe they were eliminating terrorists? Now they’ve set a deadline of 10 March for hostages to be released or else they will pummel Rafah to the ground. God knows how they are getting away with all this. I think if Hamas released all remaining hostages then Israel will become a global pariah. Why don’t they release the hostages? It ends the lame excuse Israel are using to destroy Gaza and its citizens, and it will end the last thread of justification the wider world are giving them to continue their atrocities. It isn’t as if Hamas can win the war or fight back with any impact. They will never be backed with military support or weapons by the majority of the world. So the best possible chance of seeing an end to the suffering of Palestinians is to free the last hostages and then ask the world for help if Israel don’t immediately cease and desist. As for Netenyahu, the world should be sanctioning Israel as they did with Russia. He doesn’t have the power over his people like Putin does. He can be forced out. But it requires the US to oppose what he is doing. I think that has a decent chance of happening f all hostages were released. I'm not sure if the release of the hostages, although desirable, would change the dial very much other than to harden attitudes on both sides either Pro or Anti Israel's actions It also pre supposes that their are hostages still alive, they are unlikely to be any safer than Palestinian Civilians Those who support Israel, the US and their Allies, will continue to do so for Geopolitical reasons irrespective The majority of Israelis support Netanyahu's current actions, some of the hostage families and others don't. At some point the massacre will end and International observers will enter Gaza to review the full horror If Netanyahu cannot demonstrate that he has eliminated Hamas in Gaza as a Fighting Force what has it all been about?
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Israel
Feb 19, 2024 11:52:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by oggyoggy on Feb 19, 2024 11:52:16 GMT
I think if Hamas released all remaining hostages then Israel will become a global pariah. Why don’t they release the hostages? It ends the lame excuse Israel are using to destroy Gaza and its citizens, and it will end the last thread of justification the wider world are giving them to continue their atrocities. It isn’t as if Hamas can win the war or fight back with any impact. They will never be backed with military support or weapons by the majority of the world. So the best possible chance of seeing an end to the suffering of Palestinians is to free the last hostages and then ask the world for help if Israel don’t immediately cease and desist. As for Netenyahu, the world should be sanctioning Israel as they did with Russia. He doesn’t have the power over his people like Putin does. He can be forced out. But it requires the US to oppose what he is doing. I think that has a decent chance of happening f all hostages were released. I'm not sure if the release of the hostages, although desirable, would change the dial very much other than to harden attitudes on both sides either Pro or Anti Israel's actions It also pre supposes that their are hostages still alive, they are unlikely to be any safer than Palestinian Civilians Those who support Israel, the US and their Allies, will continue to do so for Geopolitical reasons irrespective The majority of Israelis support Netanyahu's current actions, some of the hostage families and others don't. At some point the massacre will end and International observers will enter Gaza to review the full horror If Netanyahu cannot demonstrate that he has eliminated Hamas in Gaza as a Fighting Force what has it all been about? I’m not sure you are right. There has been a hardening and less support for Israel over the last couple of weeks. I think the release of hostages would further prompt that hardening. It would also show that Hamas are looking to end the conflict. It would also strengthen judgments in the Hague about what is going on. It then puts the US government in a difficult position if they have to go against the Hague (I know they are not bound by the ICC but it would put them at odds with a huge number of allies). Would the US prioritise their support of Israel above their aliances with other allies? Surely not.
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Israel
Feb 19, 2024 12:05:35 GMT
Post by phileetin on Feb 19, 2024 12:05:35 GMT
I think if Hamas released all remaining hostages then Israel will become a global pariah. Why don’t they release the hostages? It ends the lame excuse Israel are using to destroy Gaza and its citizens, and it will end the last thread of justification the wider world are giving them to continue their atrocities. It isn’t as if Hamas can win the war or fight back with any impact. They will never be backed with military support or weapons by the majority of the world. So the best possible chance of seeing an end to the suffering of Palestinians is to free the last hostages and then ask the world for help if Israel don’t immediately cease and desist. As for Netenyahu, the world should be sanctioning Israel as they did with Russia. He doesn’t have the power over his people like Putin does. He can be forced out. But it requires the US to oppose what he is doing. I think that has a decent chance of happening f all hostages were released. I'm not sure if the release of the hostages, although desirable, would change the dial very much other than to harden attitudes on both sides either Pro or Anti Israel's actions It also pre supposes that their are hostages still alive, they are unlikely to be any safer than Palestinian Civilians Those who support Israel, the US and their Allies, will continue to do so for Geopolitical reasons irrespective The majority of Israelis support Netanyahu's current actions, some of the hostage families and others don't. At some point the massacre will end and International observers will enter Gaza to review the full horror If Netanyahu cannot demonstrate that he has eliminated Hamas in Gaza as a Fighting Force what has it all been about?
October 7th and return of hostages ?
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Israel
Feb 19, 2024 12:07:52 GMT
Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 19, 2024 12:07:52 GMT
I'm not sure if the release of the hostages, although desirable, would change the dial very much other than to harden attitudes on both sides either Pro or Anti Israel's actions It also pre supposes that their are hostages still alive, they are unlikely to be any safer than Palestinian Civilians Those who support Israel, the US and their Allies, will continue to do so for Geopolitical reasons irrespective The majority of Israelis support Netanyahu's current actions, some of the hostage families and others don't. At some point the massacre will end and International observers will enter Gaza to review the full horror If Netanyahu cannot demonstrate that he has eliminated Hamas in Gaza as a Fighting Force what has it all been about?
October 7th and return of hostages ?
Only a handful have been retrieved through force, almost all were returned during the temporary ceasefire when there was an arrangement between both parties...........
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Israel
Feb 19, 2024 12:37:35 GMT
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Post by cvillestokie on Feb 19, 2024 12:37:35 GMT
I don’t see a country that’s willing to openly commit genocide and flat out reject what the ICJ say care one iota about what a climate change meeting said. The more they level Gaza, the more impossible it is to build a “second state” there again, the cheaper it will be for survey teams to blow up buildings in their way, and the fewer fights they have to have around ownership. It’s always, always about $.
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Israel
Feb 19, 2024 13:20:35 GMT
Post by wannabee on Feb 19, 2024 13:20:35 GMT
I'm not sure if the release of the hostages, although desirable, would change the dial very much other than to harden attitudes on both sides either Pro or Anti Israel's actions It also pre supposes that their are hostages still alive, they are unlikely to be any safer than Palestinian Civilians Those who support Israel, the US and their Allies, will continue to do so for Geopolitical reasons irrespective The majority of Israelis support Netanyahu's current actions, some of the hostage families and others don't. At some point the massacre will end and International observers will enter Gaza to review the full horror If Netanyahu cannot demonstrate that he has eliminated Hamas in Gaza as a Fighting Force what has it all been about? I’m not sure you are right. There has been a hardening and less support for Israel over the last couple of weeks. I think the release of hostages would further prompt that hardening. It would also show that Hamas are looking to end the conflict. It would also strengthen judgments in the Hague about what is going on. It then puts the US government in a difficult position if they have to go against the Hague (I know they are not bound by the ICC but it would put them at odds with a huge number of allies). Would the US prioritise their support of Israel above their aliances with other allies? Surely not. I don't claim any specific knowledge of how to resolve the Conflict, your solution of releasing the hostages is desirable in any event it may work, I'm doubtful I agree there have been more voices particularly in Europe prepared to be more vocal in condemnation of Israel's actions which they believe breach Human Rights Ireland and Spain have jointly written the EU Commission requesting a review of the EU - Israel Association Trade Agreement specifically Article 2 which deals with Human Rights According to this Article there is a majority in EU Parliament for this to happen www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/eu-lawmakers-back-ireland-spain-in-call-for-eu-israel-agreement-review-over-gaza/While this is desirable to place more pressure on Israel it is less effective when US and UK continue to supply Israel with Weapons to prosecute the War in Gaza As for the decision the ICJ may come to in 2/3 years time placing pressure on the US is naive in the extreme. The US isn't even a member of ICJ. The Judgement will be purely symbolic as ICJ have no means of endorsement. The only next step would be a UN Article 94 which the US would Veto in any case Regarding your last paragraph, they wouldn't have to. US unwavering support of Israel will not in any way jeopardise Alliances which matter with UK Germany France Canada Australia etc and even if it did US would not be swayed from supporting what it sees as an invaluable Geographic Strategic Geopolitical Ally in the Middle East Cauldron
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Post by wannabee on Feb 19, 2024 13:22:40 GMT
I'm not sure if the release of the hostages, although desirable, would change the dial very much other than to harden attitudes on both sides either Pro or Anti Israel's actions It also pre supposes that their are hostages still alive, they are unlikely to be any safer than Palestinian Civilians Those who support Israel, the US and their Allies, will continue to do so for Geopolitical reasons irrespective The majority of Israelis support Netanyahu's current actions, some of the hostage families and others don't. At some point the massacre will end and International observers will enter Gaza to review the full horror If Netanyahu cannot demonstrate that he has eliminated Hamas in Gaza as a Fighting Force what has it all been about?
October 7th and return of hostages ?
The Conflict didn't start on October 7th. READ A BOOK
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