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Post by RedandWhite90 on May 29, 2023 16:29:49 GMT
It isn't anti-Neil. There's concern that he alongside Martin, are being allowed (by woefully weak ownership) to shape the club in their image on the back of a season that leaves much to be desired; meddling in the one relatively bright spot the clubs had in the last 5 years. This isn't Guardiola or Ferguson overseeing wholesale changes on the back of enormous success. Or even Bielsa implementing a belief or philosophy in a way of playing (Neil can't pick between a back 3 or 4 after three quarters of a season). The manager finds himself in roughly the same position as MON was in heading into last season and there's no guarantee he will still even be here by Christmas. Personally I think the concerns expressed are valid. It is But you don’t know if it true what’s being said Fuck me let’s sack neil and then what. You can say that about any manager Neil finds himself in a different position to when he took over As he can get his own players not the shit ones left by the previous manager No, I don't think the club is going to come out and state there's an internal coup taking place are they in fairness? You'll see from posts earlier that have quotes from the club what Martin's role entails and the Academy clearly fits into that. Added to it, the following link defines Martin as one of Neil's 'closest aides'. Taking into consideration their closeness, and events at the club so far its hardly a conspiracy theory to suggest they're waging serious control. www.edp24.co.uk/sport/norwich-city/23045324.former-city-chief-poised-alex-neil-reunion/Nobody is getting overly emotional either and stating for him to be sacked. What the majority of concerned members would like is for the keys to the club be granted on merit (a la promotion) and even then I think the Academy should be in a position of devolved power barring exceptional circumstances. The position he currently finds himself in is with a skeleton squad which makes the current upheaval even more concerning as the two of them should have 100% focus on the first XI.
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Post by lordb on May 29, 2023 16:32:13 GMT
But it's RM driving this technical director justifying his job by getting rid of others RM appointed by.... Yes by AN so by default it's AN who is responsible but this isn't his decision as such, he's just party to it I think we have the worst of both worlds I'm dead against Stoke having a DOF because in practice we will have Jez Moxey/Ricky Martin chancers who get most things wrong at great expense However the club is set up everyone needs to be pulling the direction with DOF for lots of clubs and especially here it's simply a creator of division and rancour
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Post by PotterLog on May 29, 2023 16:33:47 GMT
It's yet another newly-appointed figurehead manager being given all the power to make massive long-term decisions about our club's direction and future. It's basically the exact opposite of what people mean by "complete overhaul" in our context. How are you baffled by this Easily.People making judgements based on hearsay and agenda.So when they say the club needs changing from top to bottom I interpret that as a complete overhaul.Not hard is it? And the club currently being "changed from top to bottom"? That's what's happening?
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Post by Gob Bluth on May 29, 2023 16:39:44 GMT
John Coates is a slow learner. The problem this club has had for a while is risk management. We were dolling out 5+ year contracts a while ago and we continue to have huge confidence in our decision making when there is almost no evidence to show we’re making the correct decisions.
Whether this is right or wrong the cost of making the wrong decision is high and compounded when you assume it’ll be linked to the manager’s fate. If we ended up booting Neil out it’ll be impossible to scrub the smell of him off the walls because he’s everywhere.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 16:44:49 GMT
Yes. Good results. Players coming through and generating money. More players to come through too. On every level it’s done well this last 5 years. They did seem to have a very bad season (the U21s) last year. Didn’t they finish second bottom? I know that they had a young team etc but that’s hardly “doing well”. That said, as I’ve highlighted earlier in this thread, I don’t believe that player development should be dictated by AN in any way (if it is indeed true that RM is getting rid of Russel because they don’t get along). Yeah they were gutted and we let some good players who we shouldn’t have done on the orders of the previous manager I believe.
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Post by march4 on May 29, 2023 16:46:03 GMT
AN’s revolution continues. It is a good move when establishing the leader’s vision to renew staff but it is risky if it doesn’t work and piles pressure on the leader. It’s terrible. The academy is the only thing at this club that has been working for the last 5 years. Has it? For the money invested I don’t see a conveyor belt of talent coming through.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 16:46:45 GMT
Do we know if Walker has got a better job and may have taken Rooster with him? Just a thought? He’s going to a localish club in a higher league than us from what I’ve been told. No idea re Rooster.
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Post by neddy on May 29, 2023 16:49:06 GMT
Do we know if Walker has got a better job and may have taken Rooster with him? Just a thought? He’s going to a localish club in a higher league than us from what I’ve been told. No idea re Rooster. Hmmmm maybe then Rooster will go with him which may dispel the RM theory?
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Post by pottersrule on May 29, 2023 16:54:36 GMT
Easily.People making judgements based on hearsay and agenda.So when they say the club needs changing from top to bottom I interpret that as a complete overhaul.Not hard is it? And the club currently being "changed from top to bottom"? That's what's happening? Of course unless you want the Coates gone?
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Post by wakeypotter on May 29, 2023 16:58:07 GMT
Easily.People making judgements based on hearsay and agenda.So when they say the club needs changing from top to bottom I interpret that as a complete overhaul.Not hard is it? And the club currently being "changed from top to bottom"? That's what's happening? People want change then something changes then people don’t want change 🤦♂️
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Post by lordb on May 29, 2023 16:59:56 GMT
And the club currently being "changed from top to bottom"? That's what's happening? People want change then something changes then people don’t want change 🤦♂️ No one was calling for change in the Academy It's a huge decision
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Post by PotterLog on May 29, 2023 17:00:51 GMT
And the club currently being "changed from top to bottom"? That's what's happening? Of course unless you want the Coates gone? However it's achieved, the change people generally want to see at the top is an overhaul of the structure, strategy, resources, procedures of the club so that we have a modernised, club-wide vision and some continuity between transient coaching staff. I.e. the exact opposite of what is happening.
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Post by wakeypotter on May 29, 2023 17:01:43 GMT
People want change then something changes then people don’t want change 🤦♂️ No one was calling for change in the Academy It's a huge decision Maybe it is a big call but as some have said it’s not done great so a change maybe a good call who knows
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Post by cvillestokie on May 29, 2023 17:09:20 GMT
And the club currently being "changed from top to bottom"? That's what's happening? Of course unless you want the Coates gone? It’s not really the worst thing to consider. It’s not like they have achieved anything overly remarkable to be honest. They’ve taken a club that has spent much of its history in the first two divisions and got them into the Prem, keeping them there by blowing a tonne of money. Then they messed it up and haven’t looked like sorting that out again.
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Post by pottersrule on May 29, 2023 17:26:47 GMT
Of course unless you want the Coates gone? It’s not really the worst thing to consider. It’s not like they have achieved anything overly remarkable to be honest. They’ve taken a club that has spent much of its history in the first two divisions and got them into the Prem, keeping them there by blowing a tonne of money. Then they messed it up and haven’t looked like sorting that out again. You think the Coates gone would be a positive change for Stoke City?
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Post by wherty on May 29, 2023 17:28:55 GMT
If this was anyone except Kev in the seat, no one would be fussed. How many players who have featured in the first team 11, have been at the club from under the age of 15 in the last 10 years? I can only think of Edwards and a handful who come on off the bench for a cameo.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 29, 2023 17:30:40 GMT
It’s not really the worst thing to consider. It’s not like they have achieved anything overly remarkable to be honest. They’ve taken a club that has spent much of its history in the first two divisions and got them into the Prem, keeping them there by blowing a tonne of money. Then they messed it up and haven’t looked like sorting that out again. You think the Coates gone would be a positive change for Stoke City? It might be? It would depend who the new owners were wouldn't it? In an ideal world the current owners would just learn their lesson and drag themselves into the 2020s, but that clearly isn't going to happen.
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Post by theonlooker on May 29, 2023 17:30:45 GMT
It’s not really the worst thing to consider. It’s not like they have achieved anything overly remarkable to be honest. They’ve taken a club that has spent much of its history in the first two divisions and got them into the Prem, keeping them there by blowing a tonne of money. Then they messed it up and haven’t looked like sorting that out again. You think the Coates gone would be a positive change for Stoke City? Aside from money and paying off their own accrued debts, what are they actually bringing to the party?
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 29, 2023 17:34:25 GMT
If this was anyone except Kev in the seat, no one would be fussed. How many players who have featured in the first team 11, have been at the club from under the age of 15 in the last 10 years? I can only think of Edwards and a handful who come on off the bench for a cameo. With your links to the club mate you know exactly what’s going off and the amount of staff that are very upset by these decisions. Hopefully this turns out to be a master stroke but this summer is going to have to be monumental in terms of recruitment on and off the pitch
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Post by cheadlepotter on May 29, 2023 17:36:22 GMT
Alex Neil
Won 17/25 games at Norwich with somebody else’s squad and gained promotion through the play-offs.
Relegated in first PL season.
Sacked in first season back in Championship, out of the play-off race and admitted regret over recruitment.
Preston in Championship (11th the season before AN joined) - 7th, 14th, 9th, 14th when left in March.
Sunderland. Won the L1 play-offs with somebody else’s squad after 3 months and 15 games in charge (they were 4th when he joined and finished 5th).
Stoke 16th (and had Reading not been deducted points, we’d have finished only 4 points from relegation, for context)
How does this qualify someone to become effectively First-team Manager and Director of Football?
Change isn’t always a bad thing, but a manager with a rather nothing record appointed by a chairman that has overseen consistent failure who is then given the ok to employ his mate to structure the footballing side of the club is only asking for trouble. Nobody can be blamed for questioning/doubting the club.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 17:36:44 GMT
I couldn’t give a shit about the man tbh (no offence to him 🤣) based on anything bar he’s done a good job for the 21s. I can’t remember him as a player.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 29, 2023 17:38:22 GMT
Alex Neil Won 17/25 games at Norwich with somebody else’s squad and gained promotion through the play-offs. Relegated in first PL season. Sacked in first season back in Championship, out of the play-off race and admitted regret over recruitment. Preston in Championship (11th the season before AN joined) - 7th, 14th, 9th, 14th when left in March. Sunderland. Won the L1 play-offs with somebody else’s squad after 3 months and 15 games in charge (they were 4th when he joined and finished 5th). Stoke 16th How does this qualify someone to become effectively First-team Manager and Director of Football? Change isn’t always a bad thing, but a manager with a rather nothing record appointed by a chairman that has overseen consistent failure who is then given the ok to employ his mate to structure the footballing side of the club is only asking for trouble. Nobody can be blamed for questioning/doubting the club. I think that's a bit of a disingenuous and unfair take on his managerial record, but allowing a manager yet again to control every aspect of how the club is run is incredibly short-sighted.
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Post by gingerninja on May 29, 2023 17:38:46 GMT
I think given the past record since relegation the fans have every reason to be a little concerned, yes these changes may turn out to be a masterstroke, yet if we get them wrong, where does that leave us?.
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Post by cvillestokie on May 29, 2023 17:44:12 GMT
It’s not really the worst thing to consider. It’s not like they have achieved anything overly remarkable to be honest. They’ve taken a club that has spent much of its history in the first two divisions and got them into the Prem, keeping them there by blowing a tonne of money. Then they messed it up and haven’t looked like sorting that out again. You think the Coates gone would be a positive change for Stoke City? It would depend on who came in. I don’t believe that they have to be the only way to success.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on May 29, 2023 17:47:07 GMT
And the club currently being "changed from top to bottom"? That's what's happening? People want change then something changes then people don’t want change 🤦♂️ It’s baby and bath water approach though arguably the only good thing about the last t years has been the development of young players two of who averted an inevitable points deduction and a spell in division one or worse . it’s a akin to the Liz truss budget scorched earth approach regardless of good or bad it will be august when we here the we Need time to settle first and it will still be being trotted out after Boxing Day neil and Martin have sold coates the idea they know but there is zero evidence over 40 games to say ‘they do
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Post by andystokey on May 29, 2023 17:55:18 GMT
No one was calling for change in the Academy It's a huge decision Maybe it is a big call but as some have said it’s not done great so a change maybe a good call who knows I'd say we've got enough on our plate finding 11 players to play in the first team without starting a project in the academy. Ricky Martin is essentially everybody’s boss now except AN, talk about empire building.
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Post by fca47 on May 29, 2023 18:13:02 GMT
Seems a very poor decision to me. But we will have to wait and see what the changes are going to be. We seemed very competitive with other similar clubs to us.Change for changes sake.
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Post by jokker on May 29, 2023 18:18:33 GMT
The academy was working well. The changes needed are at the other end of the club. And decisions like this shouldn’t be done by a club who could easily be sacked by November. How well is it really working though? Baring the players we signed as 17/18 year olds like Souttar, Collins and Campbell, no one has come through and become a regular first team player. We’re miles behind clubs like Blackburn, Birmingham and Middlesbrough who seem to bring academy players through every season that play regularly in the Championship. You'd also have to ask if transition from the academy to the first team is the only parameter by which you measure the success of the academy. Apparently that's not how the Coates family measure it. They look at it as an education they're giving the community's youths and a chance to make something of themselves by learning in the academy. But even if you use conventional football as the one parameter the academy has had some amount of success by playing in a couple of finals, even if we lost both times (we were absolutely murdered in one of them).
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Post by theonlooker on May 29, 2023 18:24:17 GMT
I think given the past record since relegation the fans have every reason to be a little concerned, yes these changes may turn out to be a masterstroke, yet if we get them wrong, where does that leave us?. It leaves us in League One with Kenny Jackett, Simon Grayson, Nigel Adkins or if the owners are feeling really exotic ... Karl Robinson in the dugout and us being the most expensively assembled laughing stock in the third tier, with regular lessons being handed onto our arses by Fleetwood Town and Accrington Stanley. Still, don't worry about it - your bus trip will be free.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on May 29, 2023 18:25:09 GMT
Letting the manager run all parts of the club is extremely dangerous territory. This club never learns. I'm sure Neil was consulted but the Academy falls under Ricky Martin's brief. From what Neil has said and done in the past I'm not sure he sees the Academy as the key to success and if that's the case I'm not sure it's on his list of priorities. It seems to me like it's Martin's job to make the Academy more relevant by appointing someone who can bring through players who might actually interest the first team manager on a more regular basis - which hasn't really been the case to date. Neil's primary concern is how the first team do and he'll be judged on that, not what happens in the Academy.
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