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Post by salopstick on Oct 30, 2024 10:26:05 GMT
given the huge publlic interest in this case, do you not think that given the riots, people jailed for tweete etc trying to make this case immigration and terrorist related in the aftermath that the optics make it look like the govt have surpressed this information for as long as they could?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 30, 2024 10:27:00 GMT
The court hasn't ruled that he murdered those children under the name of Jihad and Western hate. The police have evidence that he was radicalised which is being dealt with as a separate case. The court has yet to decide on the root cause of why he murdered those children. It might turn out to be as a result of his radicalisation but equally it might be a mental health issue. You are jumping to conclusions. And yes it could still be true that was brought up Christian and sang in the church choir. So what are you all defending now. I've lost track. I'm defending the rule of law over mob justice motivated by prejudice. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 30, 2024 10:27:14 GMT
We only know what happened to some of the ones who admitted they were guilty of the crime they were charged for. Or are you arguing that people who admit they are guilty of crimes shouldn’t be dealt with as quickly as possible by our justice system? It supports the idea that many were naive, non-criminals, given poor legal advice to plead guilty, such as the recently deceased in prison. Perhaps. Or they shouldn’t have committed the crime in the first place, or given the CPS enough evidence for them to be charged with the crime. |
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Post by starkiller on Oct 30, 2024 10:28:44 GMT
It supports the idea that many were naive, non-criminals, given poor legal advice to plead guilty, such as the recently deceased in prison. Perhaps. Or they shouldn’t have committed the crime in the first place, or given the CPS enough evidence for them to be charged with the crime. Nothing he did warranted an extended sentence. It's slap on the wrists stuff. Unless politically motivated, of course. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 30, 2024 10:29:12 GMT
given the huge publlic interest in this case, do you not think that given the riots, people jailed for tweete etc trying to make this case immigration and terrorist related in the aftermath that the optics make it look like the govt have surpressed this information for as long as they could? Well it seems like the government were only given a heads up in the last few weeks. Of course they might be lying and I'm sure that is what some people will claim. BBC News - Government became aware of new Southport charges in last few weeks www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0qdwzel7vxo |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 30, 2024 10:29:47 GMT
given the huge publlic interest in this case, do you not think that given the riots, people jailed for tweete etc trying to make this case immigration and terrorist related in the aftermath that the optics make it look like the govt have surpressed this information for as long as they could? The case is not immigration related. The case may be terrorism related. But the riots weren’t todo with terrorism. They were anti immigration/some were anti immigrants. Releasing charging information a few months after the incident doesn’t seem like suppressing information to me. The government shouldn’t be responsible for interfering in criminal justice as that is in breach of the rule of law. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 30, 2024 10:30:52 GMT
Perhaps. Or they shouldn’t have committed the crime in the first place, or given the CPS enough evidence for them to be charged with the crime. Nothing he did warranted an extended sentence. It's slap on the wrists stuff. Unless politically motivated, of course. I am not sure who you are talking about or what the person admitted to doing. I am sure that if a disproportionate sentence was handed down the person could have appealed. Did they? |
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Post by salopstick on Oct 30, 2024 10:33:50 GMT
given the huge publlic interest in this case, do you not think that given the riots, people jailed for tweete etc trying to make this case immigration and terrorist related in the aftermath that the optics make it look like the govt have surpressed this information for as long as they could? The case is not immigration related. The case may be terrorism related. But the riots weren’t todo with terrorism. They were anti immigration/some were anti immigrants. Releasing charging information a few months after the incident doesn’t seem like suppressing information to me. The government shouldn’t be responsible for interfering in criminal justice as that is in breach of the rule of law. i didnt say it was immigration related, but lots of people in jail were trying to make it that - we were told it wasnt terror related but the authorities have know for weeks it was a huge possibility |
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Post by salopstick on Oct 30, 2024 10:34:23 GMT
given the huge publlic interest in this case, do you not think that given the riots, people jailed for tweete etc trying to make this case immigration and terrorist related in the aftermath that the optics make it look like the govt have surpressed this information for as long as they could? Well it seems like the government were only given a heads up in the last few weeks. Of course they might be lying and I'm sure that is what some people will claim. BBC News - Government became aware of new Southport charges in last few weeks www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0qdwzel7vxoyes weeks |
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Post by starkiller on Oct 30, 2024 10:36:18 GMT
What annoys people Oggy, is even when prevented with hard evidence of what you requested. And it happens on the right as well as the left. (Not as often) You can't just say, yeah sorry didn't see this article. Or, yeah this one probably is a bit much when dealing with a Child, terrorist killer. I don't get it. You haven’t provided any evidence the authorities misled you. The article says he was born in Wales. He was. That’s not misleading. It then quotes comments made by neighbours about the family. That’s not misleading (unless you have evidence the quotes are fake). There are two narratives - You could argue that both contain truth. One, he is a Welsh, Christian, choirboy. That gets you news headlines. Two - he is a Muslim motivated to commit a terrorist act. That idea gets you a jail sentence, in which people are still imprisoned. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 30, 2024 10:38:43 GMT
The case is not immigration related. The case may be terrorism related. But the riots weren’t todo with terrorism. They were anti immigration/some were anti immigrants. Releasing charging information a few months after the incident doesn’t seem like suppressing information to me. The government shouldn’t be responsible for interfering in criminal justice as that is in breach of the rule of law. i didnt say it was immigration related, but lots of people in jail were trying to make it that - we were told it wasnt terror related but the authorities have know for weeks it was a huge possibility Correct me if I am wrong, but the authorities at the time said they were not treating it as a terrorist incident. As far as I know, they still aren’t treating the murders as terrorism (presumably it doesn’t meet the definition and there isn’t evidence to show there were terrorist motivations). The new charges are terrorism offences. I am not sure what the duty is for the CPS/police/anyone else to released information to the public, but it is better to be cautious otherwise it could prejudice the case/make it harder to prosecute the perpetrator with the full force of evidence against him. I refuse to believe that updating the public is more important than justice being done. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 30, 2024 10:40:10 GMT
You haven’t provided any evidence the authorities misled you. The article says he was born in Wales. He was. That’s not misleading. It then quotes comments made by neighbours about the family. That’s not misleading (unless you have evidence the quotes are fake). There are two narratives - You could argue that both contain truth. One, he is a Welsh, Christian, choirboy. That gets you news headlines. Two - he is a Muslim motivated to commit a terrorist act. That idea gets you a jail sentence, in which people are still imprisoned. And the only fact we were told is he was born in Wales. Which is true. The rest is all speculation and assumptions. So nobody has been misled. To me, he doesn’t sound Muslim or Christian at all. Certainly he isn’t motivated by their principles. Murder and terrorism goes against everything the vast, vast majority of Christians and Muslim stand for. |
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Post by salopstick on Oct 30, 2024 10:52:47 GMT
i didnt say it was immigration related, but lots of people in jail were trying to make it that - we were told it wasnt terror related but the authorities have know for weeks it was a huge possibility Correct me if I am wrong, but the authorities at the time said they were not treating it as a terrorist incident. As far as I know, they still aren’t treating the murders as terrorism (presumably it doesn’t meet the definition and there isn’t evidence to show there were terrorist motivations). The new charges are terrorism offences. I am not sure what the duty is for the CPS/police/anyone else to released information to the public, but it is better to be cautious otherwise it could prejudice the case/make it harder to prosecute the perpetrator with the full force of evidence against him. I refuse to believe that updating the public is more important than justice being done. tbh i sort of agree with you, but added to all the things that have happened from the stabbing, riots, two tier kier jailing tweeters etc my point stands that with a huge public interest the optics make it look like the govt have surpressed this information from the offset the aftermath became a bigger story than the stabbings which is tragic for the families involved |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 30, 2024 11:00:02 GMT
Try not to get personal. Try to address the point. Who said he was an altar boy? Also are altar boys immune from radicalisation? If so, we beed to learn from them how. I'd say there are ZERO cases of a Christian Altar boys performing multiple mass murder on children under the name of Jihad and Western hate. You would only be partially correct The neo-Nazi Christian terrorist Anders Behring Breivik at age 15 requested and was baptized and confirmed into the Christian Lutheran Church and later the Knights Templar as part of his "Crusade" That was before he went on to kill 77 people. I haven't read his "Manifesto" but commentators can't make up their minds if he's just an evil bastard, mentally ill, fucked up by his upbringing or just simply has an irrational hatred of Muslims or some other reason In the fullness of time in January when this prick gets to trial all will be revealed, maybe we should have a little patience and not jump to conclusions |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 30, 2024 11:04:37 GMT
Correct me if I am wrong, but the authorities at the time said they were not treating it as a terrorist incident. As far as I know, they still aren’t treating the murders as terrorism (presumably it doesn’t meet the definition and there isn’t evidence to show there were terrorist motivations). The new charges are terrorism offences. I am not sure what the duty is for the CPS/police/anyone else to released information to the public, but it is better to be cautious otherwise it could prejudice the case/make it harder to prosecute the perpetrator with the full force of evidence against him. I refuse to believe that updating the public is more important than justice being done. tbh i sort of agree with you, but added to all the things that have happened from the stabbing, riots, two tier kier jailing tweeters etc my point stands that with a huge public interest the optics make it look like the govt have surpressed this information from the offset the aftermath became a bigger story than the stabbings which is tragic for the families involved The fact it has such public interest means the prosecution needs to be even more careful to ensure as much justice can be done. We also need to all ensure that the noise around the case of cover ups and conspiracy and terrorism and extremism doesn’t takeaway from the most important factor. Throwing the book at the person who brutally murdered three innocent children, and the multiple people’s lives that has ruined as a result. I worry by the very fact this was brought up again on the uncontrolled immigration thread shows that certain people (definitely not you) are more interested in being able to try to bolster their anti immigrant views rather than the victims of this awful crime. |
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Post by emretezzy on Oct 30, 2024 11:18:04 GMT
So what are you all defending now. I've lost track. I'm defending the rule of law over mob justice motivated by prejudice. Oh right, Nothing anyone is on about then. Nice one. |
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Post by emretezzy on Oct 30, 2024 11:19:37 GMT
tbh i sort of agree with you, but added to all the things that have happened from the stabbing, riots, two tier kier jailing tweeters etc my point stands that with a huge public interest the optics make it look like the govt have surpressed this information from the offset the aftermath became a bigger story than the stabbings which is tragic for the families involved The fact it has such public interest means the prosecution needs to be even more careful to ensure as much justice can be done. We also need to all ensure that the noise around the case of cover ups and conspiracy and terrorism and extremism doesn’t takeaway from the most important factor. Throwing the book at the person who brutally murdered three innocent children, and the multiple people’s lives that has ruined as a result. I worry by the very fact this was brought up again on the uncontrolled immigration thread shows that certain people (definitely not you) are more interested in being able to try to bolster their anti immigrant views rather than the victims of this awful crime. Hes killed 3 kids Oggy. I'd say even this lilly-livered puppet show in charge can't fuck up this prosecution. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 30, 2024 11:22:23 GMT
The fact it has such public interest means the prosecution needs to be even more careful to ensure as much justice can be done. We also need to all ensure that the noise around the case of cover ups and conspiracy and terrorism and extremism doesn’t takeaway from the most important factor. Throwing the book at the person who brutally murdered three innocent children, and the multiple people’s lives that has ruined as a result. I worry by the very fact this was brought up again on the uncontrolled immigration thread shows that certain people (definitely not you) are more interested in being able to try to bolster their anti immigrant views rather than the victims of this awful crime. Hes killed 3 kids Oggy. I'd say even this lilly-livered puppet show in charge can't fuck up this prosecution. Yes, and if they can get him for terrorism offences, and anything he has done, all the better as that means longer sentencing. What have you got against Stephen Parkinson!?! |
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Post by emretezzy on Oct 30, 2024 11:25:28 GMT
Hes killed 3 kids Oggy. I'd say even this lilly-livered puppet show in charge can't fuck up this prosecution. Yes, and if they can get him for terrorism offences, and anything he has done, all the better as that means longer sentencing. What have you got against Stephen Parkinson!?! I'm not a lawyer in London like yourself. But if I couldn't make a Prosecution stick that a bloke cooking Ricin and reads an Al Qaeda manual isn't a terrorist I'd call it a day and go and something else. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 30, 2024 11:28:40 GMT
Yes, and if they can get him for terrorism offences, and anything he has done, all the better as that means longer sentencing. What have you got against Stephen Parkinson!?! I'm not a lawyer in London like yourself. But if I couldn't make a Prosecution stick that a bloke cooking Ricin and reads an Al Qaeda manual isn't a terrorist I'd call it a day and go and something else. Yes, you lack even the most simplistic knowledge of the law and building a criminal case. |
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Post by emretezzy on Oct 30, 2024 11:29:35 GMT
I'm not a lawyer in London like yourself. But if I couldn't make a Prosecution stick that a bloke cooking Ricin and reads an Al Qaeda manual isn't a terrorist I'd call it a day and go and something else. Yes, you lack even the most simplistic knowledge of the law and building a criminal case. I'll come work for you then. Lefty Law .com |
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Post by salopstick on Oct 30, 2024 11:30:58 GMT
tbh i sort of agree with you, but added to all the things that have happened from the stabbing, riots, two tier kier jailing tweeters etc my point stands that with a huge public interest the optics make it look like the govt have surpressed this information from the offset the aftermath became a bigger story than the stabbings which is tragic for the families involved The fact it has such public interest means the prosecution needs to be even more careful to ensure as much justice can be done. We also need to all ensure that the noise around the case of cover ups and conspiracy and terrorism and extremism doesn’t takeaway from the most important factor. Throwing the book at the person who brutally murdered three innocent children, and the multiple people’s lives that has ruined as a result. I worry by the very fact this was brought up again on the uncontrolled immigration thread shows that certain people (definitely not you) are more interested in being able to try to bolster their anti immigrant views rather than the victims of this awful crime. i dont get involved too much with immigration on here - some aspects is a legitimate concern though when 2nd gen immigrants cause crime its understandable (regardless of correct) that the two are linked by certain elements |
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Post by emretezzy on Oct 30, 2024 11:36:23 GMT
I'm not a lawyer in London like yourself. But if I couldn't make a Prosecution stick that a bloke cooking Ricin and reads an Al Qaeda manual isn't a terrorist I'd call it a day and go and something else. Yes, you lack even the most simplistic knowledge of the law and building a criminal case. Genuine law question.. The terrorism charge is all optics as the charge is never going to supercede the triple murder charge from a custodial standpoint? Is it to do with where he is placed in the jails? Protection etc... Could his life actually be easier in jail if it is terrorism charge. Soliditary confinement etc.. |
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Post by salopstick on Oct 30, 2024 11:38:49 GMT
Yes, you lack even the most simplistic knowledge of the law and building a criminal case. Genuine law question.. The terrorism charge is all optics as the charge is never going to supercede the triple murder charge from a custodial standpoint? Is it to do with where he is placed in the jails? Protection etc... Could his life actually be easier in jail if it is terrorism charge. Soliditary confinement etc.. in some peoples eyes it excuses the riots, social media hysterics etc hence why I believe the optics dont look good when it appears the govt wished to surpress the narrative |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 30, 2024 11:39:52 GMT
Yes, you lack even the most simplistic knowledge of the law and building a criminal case. Genuine law question.. The terrorism charge is all optics as the charge is never going to supercede the triple murder charge from a custodial standpoint? Is it to do with where he is placed in the jails? Protection etc... Could his life actually be easier in jail if it is terrorism charge. Soliditary confinement etc.. I’m not a criminal lawyer, but the more we can throw at him, the better. Getting to the truth in what he was doing, and arresting any accomplices, definitely is not optics. If the murders are linked to terrorism, and being found guilty of other terror offences perhaps makes that jump easier, then that will be an aggravating factor for sentencing. I have no idea about jail placements. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 30, 2024 12:12:55 GMT
The left on here showing their true colours yet again! Lots on here were right, the lefties backed the wrong ones yet again! What are you on about? He WASN'T an asylum seeker and he wasn't an immigrant It might turn out that he was a terrorist. I don't follow your logic linking the two? Oh actually, hang on ... |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 30, 2024 12:27:19 GMT
The left on here showing their true colours yet again! Lots on here were right, the lefties backed the wrong ones yet again! What are you on about? He WASN'T an asylum seeker and he wasn't an immigrant It might turn out that he was a terrorist. I don't follow your logic linking the two? Oh actually, hang on ... Just showing his true colours. |
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Post by starkiller on Oct 30, 2024 12:31:32 GMT
The left on here showing their true colours yet again! Lots on here were right, the lefties backed the wrong ones yet again! What are you on about? He WASN'T an asylum seeker and he wasn't an immigrant It might turn out that he was a terrorist. I don't follow your logic linking the two? Oh actually, hang on ... The fact that he wasn't an immigrant shows a failure in integration. A word no longer really used. I guess it's out of fashion because it's becoming increasingly unlikely. Does that suggest multiculturalism has failed? I'm not sure. But rapid, mass immigration at a speed never seen in human history, certainly leads to more of a multiple culture society, than a multicultural one. And that by definition is more of a divise society. A chance to take stock is long overdue. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 30, 2024 12:36:41 GMT
Genuine law question.. The terrorism charge is all optics as the charge is never going to supercede the triple murder charge from a custodial standpoint? Is it to do with where he is placed in the jails? Protection etc... Could his life actually be easier in jail if it is terrorism charge. Soliditary confinement etc.. in some peoples eyes it excuses the riots, social media hysterics etc hence why I believe the optics dont look good when it appears the govt wished to surpress the narrative Absolutely stupid fucking post of the day award. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 30, 2024 12:38:31 GMT
The left on here showing their true colours yet again! Lots on here were right, the lefties backed the wrong ones yet again! What are you on about? He WASN'T an asylum seeker and he wasn't an immigrant It might turn out that he was a terrorist. I don't follow your logic linking the two? Oh actually, hang on ... There are quite a few on here who just want to blame someone who isn’t British for everything that goes wrong. I call them racist idiots but people can make their own minds up what they want to call them. |
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