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Post by maxplonk on Nov 25, 2023 14:49:48 GMT
Opinion polls are rarely representative. Tell that to the resident lefties If a poll doesn't explicitly claim to be representative, then it isn't. |
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Post by maxplonk on Nov 25, 2023 14:52:42 GMT
That’s from the Daily Mail Cranny, banned by the lefties I’m afraid. It only the lefties. Wikipedia (English version) hasn't considered the Daily Mail to be reliable since 2017. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 25, 2023 14:52:46 GMT
Amusing characterisations in today's Telegraph, concerning the voters who will decide the next election, according to them of course. "Stop the boats Steve" is one of them. Voted Leave, over 55, puts immigration at the top of priorities. Watches GBNews, reads The Sun, Mail or Express, holidays in Spain, considering switching to Reform. Even the Telegraph has characterised him as a perpetually angry, placard waving, easily riled type. He sounds familiar...!  |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 25, 2023 15:02:19 GMT
I think there are better brains than ours who are engaged on how to square the circle of how to provide a "free" health service, effectively, at a sustainable cost. Whilst the UK NHS falls far short of many other nations it is better than most on a number of measures. It is woefully wasteful, but that is an inevitable consequence of being nationalised and a political football. It terms of service it is a postcode lottery. I live in the middle of North Yorkshire, use the NHS a lot and have little to complain about. I have a relative who suffered at the hands of Scarborough's service which has a dreadful reputation. I remember a story about Thatcher who was smarting from criticism about the NHS failures and asked her civil servants how much is needed to provide a quality service. She was horrified to be told you could spend the whole of the national expenditure on health and welfare, etc on the NHS and there would still be need to spend more. Many countries that spend more on health (per capita, or % GDP) don't support NATO to the level the UK does to defend world freedom. It's also a matter of priorities. The last Labour government set up health trusts, paid doctors more, stopped young doctors having to work 60 hours a week, and spent a lot more money. It improved the service a lot but it came at a cost; huge amounts of NHS expenditure are now for pensions, lots of doctors/dentists now just work 3 or 4 days a week because they are highly paid, and as the number of employees climbs and climbs so does the cost of administration that does nothing for patients. I dread to think what the NHS heating bill has been during the energy crisis! I think one action, which would be highly unpopular, is means testing. Can we really as a nation afford to give free prescriptions to everyone over 65 (or literally everybody in Wales) when lots of well off people can afford the cost? The wastage on prescriptions is massive, vast quantities being unused. Another major cost is legal claims. The government train NHS employees who then leave for the private sector, who could be made to recompense the NHS is they poach employees from the NHS. But then, as posted above, the UK is taking employees away from much poorer countries. Thank goodness for immigration, hey? Could we afford private health premiums? I think people would be staggered at what the government spends on the NHS per head of the population. Maybe they should just give us each our share and say look after yourself!!! I've heard that suggested in the past. I don’t share your optimism that “better brains” could come up with a solution. How’s the privatization of the water ways gone? Seems like a great service. Wastage can be prioritized. Privatization isn’t required for that. Those “better minds” are. Cost per drug at the point of care is still way lower than many other countries. The NHS is a lottery, I agree. Yet, the disparities are infinitely smaller than countries like the U.S. Doctors around the world often work shifts that are similar to a 7 on, 7 off model. The idea being to work 40 hour work weeks over a 6 month period (which they don’t because when they get in, they’ll spend hours filing in notes for the next doctor and so on). The current “better brain” in charge of the whole lot has never worked in a healthcare field and takes in £160k a year. I’m sure she’ll do what’s best for the UK public. She’s definitely got the life experience and work experience to deliver 😂. Politics is full of politicians who fail upwards and stay in the system based on fame more than substance. Yes I fail to see why Victoria Adkins career as a Barrister qualifies her to be Health Secretary. Victoria Secret could probably do an equally good job and be far more entertaining As I said in my opening post no matter what way you slice it UK doesn't train enough Doctors for size of population and recruiting overseas trained is morally questionable. There are currently about 12,000 Doctor Vacancies in NHS and on average 2/3000 retire each year on average aged 60. It's a simple equation that if you train 7,500 each year not all guaranteed to work in NHS you are building in failure. Added to the fact that thousands of Doctors are leaving NHS to work in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ireland for twice to three times the salary. It's insane and unsustainable Besides increasing the number of Doctors in training I would adopt something like the Army Policy. Officer Training takes about 1 year then you must sign up for 4 years. Investment in Doctors training is expensive and on graduation they should sign up for 4 years to NHS The cost of training a doctor is often overstated by Government at £250,000 but this includes repayable loans of about £90,000, still a sizable sum. You mentioned earlier about Private Medical Insurance which is something of an anathema to many UK people who cherish what they think the NHS is or rather should be. It's obviously not for everyone but it's not as expensive as you think about £1K per person on average for UK coverage. in UK about 8 million or 13% of people have Private Medical Insurance. Not even sure it applies anymore but at one point if you opted out of Pension SERPs you paid a reduced Nation Insurance if something similar was done for NHS perhaps more would opt out and relieve pressure on NHS I can't be a hypocrite, just a champagne socialist, but I've had Worldwide Medical Coverage for 40+ years initially paid by my employers and more recently myself although I did drop US coverage and halved the premium as I don't go there much anymore I realise some of my suggestions may be unpopular but without a root and branch review of NHS it will only continue in a downward spiral |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2023 15:22:21 GMT
I don’t share your optimism that “better brains” could come up with a solution. How’s the privatization of the water ways gone? Seems like a great service. Wastage can be prioritized. Privatization isn’t required for that. Those “better minds” are. Cost per drug at the point of care is still way lower than many other countries. The NHS is a lottery, I agree. Yet, the disparities are infinitely smaller than countries like the U.S. Doctors around the world often work shifts that are similar to a 7 on, 7 off model. The idea being to work 40 hour work weeks over a 6 month period (which they don’t because when they get in, they’ll spend hours filing in notes for the next doctor and so on). The current “better brain” in charge of the whole lot has never worked in a healthcare field and takes in £160k a year. I’m sure she’ll do what’s best for the UK public. She’s definitely got the life experience and work experience to deliver 😂. Politics is full of politicians who fail upwards and stay in the system based on fame more than substance. Yes I fail to see why Victoria Adkins career as a Barrister qualifies her to be Health Secretary. Victoria Secret could probably do an equally good job and be far more entertaining As I said in my opening post no matter what way you slice it UK doesn't train enough Doctors for size of population and recruiting overseas trained is morally questionable. There are currently about 12,000 Doctor Vacancies in NHS and on average 2/3000 retire each year on average aged 60. It's a simple equation that if you train 7,500 each year not all guaranteed to work in NHS you are building in failure. Added to the fact that thousands of Doctors are leaving NHS to work in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ireland for twice to three times the salary. It's insane and unsustainable Besides increasing the number of Doctors in training I would adopt something like the Army Policy. Officer Training takes about 1 year then you must sign up for 4 years. Investment in Doctors training is expensive and on graduation they should sign up for 4 years to NHS The cost of training a doctor is often overstated by Government at £250,000 but this includes repayable loans of about £90,000, still a sizable sum. You mentioned earlier about Private Medical Insurance which is something of an anathema to many UK people who cherish what they think the NHS is or rather should be. It's obviously not for everyone but it's not as expensive as you think about £1K per person on average for UK coverage. in UK about 8 million or 13% of people have Private Medical Insurance. Not even sure it applies anymore but at one point if you opted out of Pension SERPs you paid a reduced Nation Insurance if something similar was done for NHS perhaps more would opt out and relieve pressure on NHS I can't be a hypocrite, just a champagne socialist, but I've had Worldwide Medical Coverage for 40+ years initially paid by my employers and more recently myself although I did drop US coverage and halved the premium as I don't go there much anymore I realise some of my suggestions may be unpopular but without a root and branch review of NHS it will only continue in a downward spiral I’m personally surprised that the UK doesn’t create a system whereby those trained in the UK must stay in the NHS for a specific period of time. It does make a lot of sense. With regards to taking students from abroad, kids that can afford to do that would definitely have options to go elsewhere if we didn’t use them. I don’t think it’s morally wrong to take students from abroad. They come for quality education and infrastructure lacking in their own countries. A solution would be to create more spaces in Uk institutions, which means more lecturers and initially, hiring more attendings to deal with the increase in student and resident load. That would require investment, otherwise you just get diminishing returns. R.e., “ It's obviously not for everyone but it's not as expensive as you think about £1K per person on average for UK coverage.”…..this is in its current state, where it’s a luxury, not a necessity. Ford once said that capitalism is about making life’s luxuries a necessity. Putting healthcare into private hands creates opportunity for a necessity to be a luxury and a necessity. |
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Post by felonious on Nov 26, 2023 16:18:37 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Nov 26, 2023 16:36:26 GMT
You mentioned earlier about Private Medical Insurance which is something of an anathema to many UK people who cherish what they think the NHS is or rather should be. It's obviously not for everyone but it's not as expensive as you think about £1K per person on average for UK coverage. in UK about 8 million or 13% of people have Private Medical Insurance. Not even sure it applies anymore but at one point if you opted out of Pension SERPs you paid a reduced Nation Insurance if something similar was done for NHS perhaps more would opt out and relieve pressure on NHS Wouldn't the lower risk people just opt out and go private then? So the NHS then ends up even worse off. From the US it looks like you're then stuck with an argument between people who think that it should be free market versus universal coverage. If you pick free market then someone like Stephen Hawking is just left to suffer and die unless they've got very rich parents. If you pick universal then you just end up with a shitter, more expensive version of the NHS with tons of money siphoned off by admin so the salespeople can track sales, negotiate with each other etc. I'll go look up my current insurance options but iirc my last employer insurance cost $8,736/year and it didn't cover anything until I'd paid $1.5k up front. I hit all of the healthy numbers and lifestyle targets and the only healthcare I used in 2.5 years were the free vaccines, and it still cost me way more than taxes for the NHS would have. A major "benefit" a lot of Americans seem to like is that if they're richer then they can get better healthcare and they kind of show off about it and it seems to make them feel good. I hear a lot of them do this. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Nov 26, 2023 16:48:45 GMT
Sounds wishy washy? Everyone talks about "improving efficiency" but wtf does that really mean? Fewer care workers per care home resident? Maybe AI will help the NHS with things like paperwork and notes so doctors can spend more time seeing people? |
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Post by satoshi on Nov 26, 2023 16:57:34 GMT
If English people weren’t lazy enough to have deliveroo delivered twice a day, there wouldn’t be such a high demand for these bloody foreigners
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Post by mtrstudent on Nov 26, 2023 17:04:31 GMT
If English people weren’t lazy enough to have deliveroo delivered twice a day, there wouldn’t be such a high demand for these bloody foreigners Why stop there? Don't buy anything non-essential and you don't need as many workers. |
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Post by satoshi on Nov 26, 2023 17:13:36 GMT
If English people weren’t lazy enough to have deliveroo delivered twice a day, there wouldn’t be such a high demand for these bloody foreigners Why stop there? Don't buy anything non-essential and you don't need as many workers. I don’t even buy internet I’ve hacked my neighbours wifi. Progressive. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 26, 2023 17:15:27 GMT
Why stop there? Don't buy anything non-essential and you don't need as many workers. I don’t even buy internet I’ve hacked my neighbours wifi. Progressive. Why don't you pay for your internet? |
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Post by satoshi on Nov 26, 2023 17:18:13 GMT
I don’t even buy internet I’ve hacked my neighbours wifi. Progressive. Why don't you pay for your internet? To stop the boats |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Nov 26, 2023 17:23:27 GMT
I don’t even buy internet I’ve hacked my neighbours wifi. Progressive. Why don't you pay for your internet? You’d think he’d keep it on the download👀 |
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Post by satoshi on Nov 26, 2023 17:25:06 GMT
Why don't you pay for your internet? You’d think he’d keep it on the download👀 Broadbandly speaking yes |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 26, 2023 17:33:58 GMT
Why don't you pay for your internet? To stop the boats What? |
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Post by satoshi on Nov 26, 2023 17:39:15 GMT
Big floaty things that drive on water |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 26, 2023 17:42:14 GMT
Big floaty things that drive on water Yawn ... |
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Post by satoshi on Nov 26, 2023 17:46:52 GMT
Big floaty things that drive on water Yawn ... It’s in the dictionary |
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Post by felonious on Nov 26, 2023 18:03:25 GMT
Sounds wishy washy? Everyone talks about "improving efficiency" but wtf does that really mean? Fewer care workers per care home resident? Maybe AI will help the NHS with things like paperwork and notes so doctors can spend more time seeing people? I think they know that it's going to come down. Some expert was saying on the radio that the main reason for the increases is the student plus dependant numbers which are artificially high due to the post Covid release on restrictions around the world. He also said the government was taking steps to restrict dependants . Hong Kong and Ukraine numbers are stabilising and who knows when Ukranians will start to leave. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 26, 2023 18:04:18 GMT
Amusing characterisations in today's Telegraph, concerning the voters who will decide the next election, according to them of course. "Stop the boats Steve" is one of them. Voted Leave, over 55, puts immigration at the top of priorities. Watches GBNews, reads The Sun, Mail or Express, holidays in Spain, considering switching to Reform. Even the Telegraph has characterised him as a perpetually angry, placard waving, easily riled type. He sounds familiar...! To be fair, looking at the footage from the various protests held lately you could be describing anybody on any side of the political spectrum to me. |
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Post by felonious on Nov 26, 2023 18:07:11 GMT
Amusing characterisations in today's Telegraph, concerning the voters who will decide the next election, according to them of course. "Stop the boats Steve" is one of them. Voted Leave, over 55, puts immigration at the top of priorities. Watches GBNews, reads The Sun, Mail or Express, holidays in Spain, considering switching to Reform. Even the Telegraph has characterised him as a perpetually angry, placard waving, easily riled type. He sounds familiar...! To be fair, looking at the footage from the various protests held lately you could be describing anybody on any side of the political spectrum to me. ..... or the types intimidating MPs and vandalising constituency offices. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 26, 2023 18:09:02 GMT
I don’t share your optimism that “better brains” could come up with a solution. How’s the privatization of the water ways gone? Seems like a great service. Wastage can be prioritized. Privatization isn’t required for that. Those “better minds” are. Cost per drug at the point of care is still way lower than many other countries. The NHS is a lottery, I agree. Yet, the disparities are infinitely smaller than countries like the U.S. Doctors around the world often work shifts that are similar to a 7 on, 7 off model. The idea being to work 40 hour work weeks over a 6 month period (which they don’t because when they get in, they’ll spend hours filing in notes for the next doctor and so on). The current “better brain” in charge of the whole lot has never worked in a healthcare field and takes in £160k a year. I’m sure she’ll do what’s best for the UK public. She’s definitely got the life experience and work experience to deliver 😂. Politics is full of politicians who fail upwards and stay in the system based on fame more than substance. Yes I fail to see why Victoria Adkins career as a Barrister qualifies her to be Health Secretary. Victoria Secret could probably do an equally good job and be far more entertaining As I said in my opening post no matter what way you slice it UK doesn't train enough Doctors for size of population and recruiting overseas trained is morally questionable. There are currently about 12,000 Doctor Vacancies in NHS and on average 2/3000 retire each year on average aged 60. It's a simple equation that if you train 7,500 each year not all guaranteed to work in NHS you are building in failure. Added to the fact that thousands of Doctors are leaving NHS to work in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ireland for twice to three times the salary. It's insane and unsustainable Besides increasing the number of Doctors in training I would adopt something like the Army Policy. Officer Training takes about 1 year then you must sign up for 4 years. Investment in Doctors training is expensive and on graduation they should sign up for 4 years to NHS The cost of training a doctor is often overstated by Government at £250,000 but this includes repayable loans of about £90,000, still a sizable sum. You mentioned earlier about Private Medical Insurance which is something of an anathema to many UK people who cherish what they think the NHS is or rather should be. It's obviously not for everyone but it's not as expensive as you think about £1K per person on average for UK coverage. in UK about 8 million or 13% of people have Private Medical Insurance. Not even sure it applies anymore but at one point if you opted out of Pension SERPs you paid a reduced Nation Insurance if something similar was done for NHS perhaps more would opt out and relieve pressure on NHS I can't be a hypocrite, just a champagne socialist, but I've had Worldwide Medical Coverage for 40+ years initially paid by my employers and more recently myself although I did drop US coverage and halved the premium as I don't go there much anymore I realise some of my suggestions may be unpopular but without a root and branch review of NHS it will only continue in a downward spiral I've had private health cover for a while, some things require a GPs referral to access through your cover. In my experience they get properly dirty guts over this, receptionists, doctors the lot. Not sure why but they don't like it when I've made that request before. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Nov 26, 2023 18:10:39 GMT
Sounds wishy washy? Everyone talks about "improving efficiency" but wtf does that really mean? Fewer care workers per care home resident? Maybe AI will help the NHS with things like paperwork and notes so doctors can spend more time seeing people? I think they know that it's going to come down. Some expert was saying on the radio that the main reason for the increases is the student plus dependant numbers which are artificially high due to the post Covid release on restrictions around the world. He also said the government was taking steps to restrict dependants . Hong Kong and Ukraine numbers are stabilising and who knows when Ukranians will start to leave. Actually that makes a load of sense. I saw 150k dependents & family coming with students? I imagine you could cut those down a lot and still have plenty of people wanting to come and study. Looks like there are easy and fair ways to cut the numbers by a lot and whichever party is in power will take the credit. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 26, 2023 18:12:09 GMT
To be fair, looking at the footage from the various protests held lately you could be describing anybody on any side of the political spectrum to me. ..... or the types intimidating MPs and vandalising constituency offices. There's Badger on his bike on the way to work too. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 26, 2023 18:12:52 GMT
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Nov 26, 2023 18:28:25 GMT
Hope? Plan? Intend? Aspire? Semantics matter not as the only measure will be whether they get there (or move substantially in the right direction). However given that nett migration was 242k in 2009 (the last full year of a Labour govt) it would suggest they've got more of a clue than the current shower who have had reducing immigration ("to the tens of thousands" in the words of Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton) as a key plank of every Govt since then at the same time as moving inexorably in the opposite direction to the current 755k |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2023 23:10:48 GMT
I think they know that it's going to come down. Some expert was saying on the radio that the main reason for the increases is the student plus dependant numbers which are artificially high due to the post Covid release on restrictions around the world. He also said the government was taking steps to restrict dependants . Hong Kong and Ukraine numbers are stabilising and who knows when Ukranians will start to leave. Actually that makes a load of sense. I saw 150k dependents & family coming with students? I imagine you could cut those down a lot and still have plenty of people wanting to come and study. Looks like there are easy and fair ways to cut the numbers by a lot and whichever party is in power will take the credit. Depends what you want from these students. If you want them to stay in the country and build a life, you are more likely to do that if they can bring their children and wife/husband with them. Personally, I think it’s a pretty shit thing to do: take advantage of the extra money that a foreign student brings in while denying them the chance to be with their loved ones. My father-in-law didn’t see his daughter until she was 6 because of these types of visas. Given that we all think family is important, I don’t think it’s right to screw families over like that. |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 26, 2023 23:29:18 GMT
You mentioned earlier about Private Medical Insurance which is something of an anathema to many UK people who cherish what they think the NHS is or rather should be. It's obviously not for everyone but it's not as expensive as you think about £1K per person on average for UK coverage. in UK about 8 million or 13% of people have Private Medical Insurance. Not even sure it applies anymore but at one point if you opted out of Pension SERPs you paid a reduced Nation Insurance if something similar was done for NHS perhaps more would opt out and relieve pressure on NHS Wouldn't the lower risk people just opt out and go private then? So the NHS then ends up even worse off. From the US it looks like you're then stuck with an argument between people who think that it should be free market versus universal coverage. If you pick free market then someone like Stephen Hawking is just left to suffer and die unless they've got very rich parents. If you pick universal then you just end up with a shitter, more expensive version of the NHS with tons of money siphoned off by admin so the salespeople can track sales, negotiate with each other etc. I'll go look up my current insurance options but iirc my last employer insurance cost $8,736/year and it didn't cover anything until I'd paid $1.5k up front. I hit all of the healthy numbers and lifestyle targets and the only healthcare I used in 2.5 years were the free vaccines, and it still cost me way more than taxes for the NHS would have. A major "benefit" a lot of Americans seem to like is that if they're richer then they can get better healthcare and they kind of show off about it and it seems to make them feel good. I hear a lot of them do this. Overall I guess what I'm saying is that the current system isn't working very well, no need for me to quote Einstein Perhaps younger people might opt out thinking they have lower risk but the Australian system works whereby you have until age 31 to decide if you want to take out Health Insurance and then for lifetime your Premium doesn't balloon as you get older. If you join after 31 your entry and future cost is more. You also get a 1.5% tax reduction. I think about 50% of people have Heath Insurance. I don't think there is a perfect Universal system even if it is the most desirable option and those that can afford it will always try and jump the que, it's just the way life is and very little is ever going to change that. I think generally if you have a chronic illness in UK you will be treated as a relative priority If you have a less serious problem like needing a hip replacement Private is the way to go. Personally I think the way to go is Co-location a bit like taking a long haul flight. Most people are happy to pay for an Economy Ticket to get them from A to B others are happy to pay more to get more seat space and a better meal. They both arrive at the destination at the same time and the Economy passengers clear customs maybe 10 minutes later. If the NHS are picking up extra Revenue, happy days. The US system is whole different ball of Wax. A lot of my ex colleagues were more fearful of losing their jobs because they would lose their medical cover rather than finding another job where they would have to wait until the medical benefits kicked in Having access to the most advanced treatments is fine .... if you can afford it, but very few Medical Insurances will cover it Just my rambling thoughts |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 26, 2023 23:53:37 GMT
If English people weren’t lazy enough to have deliveroo delivered twice a day, there wouldn’t be such a high demand for these bloody foreigners If you ever need to see an NHS Consultant Proctologist 50% were born outside UK If you need NHS Mental Health treatment 25% of the Practitioners were born outside UK And if you're unfortunate enough to have to enter Residential Care 25% of the staff who will wipe your arse were born outside UK, the majority being African |
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