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Post by noustie on Nov 23, 2022 20:21:13 GMT
As Prestwich says, there was no way they were going to win the Supreme Court case today but that wasn’t the point, it sets up the two attack lines we’ll hear quite a lot of in the coming months and Blackford actually delivered them quite well. What right does a PM, with zero mandate, have to deny Scottish democracy? The idea the UK is a voluntary union of nations is laughable. What's stopping them holding one anyway? It's not illegal, it just won't have UK govt approval. However, this ruling may just have put ten percent onto the yes vote. If so, what does the UK govt do if an unofficial referendum comes back 60/40 in favour of yes? Do they ignore the will of the people?! Good luck with that ending up in anything other than generating yet more support for independence! Don't think Sturgeon will be that upset by this ruling. One reason I've seen mate is because councils controlled by unionist parties could just veto funding polling stations so any result would essentially be meaningless.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 23, 2022 20:24:44 GMT
What's stopping them holding one anyway? It's not illegal, it just won't have UK govt approval. However, this ruling may just have put ten percent onto the yes vote. If so, what does the UK govt do if an unofficial referendum comes back 60/40 in favour of yes? Do they ignore the will of the people?! Good luck with that ending up in anything other than generating yet more support for independence! Don't think Sturgeon will be that upset by this ruling. One reason I've seen mate is because councils controlled by unionist parties could just veto funding polling stations so any result would essentially be meaningless. I guess they could. But if they wanted to look like they were thwarting democracy and wanted to further aid the cause of independence that'd be a good way of going about it! Not a good look for any of those parties doing such a thing.
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Post by swampmongrel on Nov 23, 2022 20:56:09 GMT
An ‘unofficial’ referendum would be boycotted by unionist parties/voters (I.e. they wouldn’t bother voting). Suspect ‘aye’ would win 99/1 on a >20% turnout.
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Post by swampmongrel on Nov 23, 2022 20:58:47 GMT
An ‘unofficial’ referendum would be boycotted by unionist parties/voters (I.e. they wouldn’t bother voting). Suspect ‘aye’ would win 99/1 on a >20% turnout. Would be like the Catalonia referendum only with more Buckfast and less Guardia Civil smashing people in the bonce.
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Post by AlbertTatlock on Nov 23, 2022 22:39:43 GMT
Where now for her SNP party, I was hearing last week that the Scottish Government was thinking of charging those who they consider "well off" to pay for their NHS treatment. How do they think they would they manage at all without money from Westminster? A few years ago they were touting the idea all the oil in the North Sea would make them a richer country, that's all gone a bit quiet especially since Cop26 and all the posturing and rhetoric that was spouted. Free University, free prescriptions, what next free smack for the addicts in the drug capital of Europe, the EU have already said they don't want Scotland, they won't be able to use the £, they will have to start to pay the billions of debt back as well as pay for the assets that are currently owned by the UK. What will become of the Scottish people working south of the border will they have to apply for work permits and et a Scottish passport? Then there's the issue of the border who's going to pay for rebuilding of Hadrian's Wall? Part of me is pissing myself laughing that the horrible fuckwit Jimmy Krankie lost but I can't help wondering how they would have managed a huge mess independence would have bought to her. Gouranga.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 23, 2022 23:26:39 GMT
Has this country not learned a thing?
Referendums are shit. The public are stupid. There should not be one again.
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Post by wannabee on Nov 23, 2022 23:44:05 GMT
Where now for her SNP party, i was hearing last week that the Scottish Government was thinking of charging those who they consider "well off" to pay for their NHS treatment How do they think they would they manage at all without money from Westminster? A few years ago they were touting the idea all the oil in the North Sea would make them a richer country, that's all gone a bit quiet especially since Cop26 and all the posturing and rhetoric that was spouted. Free University, free prescriptions, what next free smack for the addicts in the drug capital of Europe, the EU have already said they don't want Scotland, they won't be able to use the £, they will have to start to pay the billions of debt back as well as pay for the assets that are currently owned by the UK. What will become of the Scottish people working south of the border will they have to apply for work permits and et a Scottish passport? Then there's the issue of the border who's going to pay for rebuilding of Hadrian's Wall? Part of me is pissing myself laughing that the horrible fuckwit Jimmy Krankie lost but I can't help wondering how they would have managed a huge mess independence would have bought to her. Gouranga. Good heavens are people really this poorly informed Did you ever consider informing yourself rather than relying on Fred from Facebook?
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Post by felonious on Nov 24, 2022 7:42:48 GMT
She's not having a good few days. Scottish schools shut as teachers strike over pay www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63734668Surely the solution would be to put extra tax on top of the extra tax she's already taking off the Scots
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 24, 2022 8:05:49 GMT
Has this country not learned a thing? Referendums are shit. The public are stupid. There should not be one again. Attachment Deleted
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Post by lawrieleslie on Nov 24, 2022 8:10:10 GMT
As Prestwich says, there was no way they were going to win the Supreme Court case today but that wasn’t the point, it sets up the two attack lines we’ll hear quite a lot of in the coming months and Blackford actually delivered them quite well. What right does a PM, with zero mandate, have to deny Scottish democracy? The idea the UK is a voluntary union of nations is laughable. What's stopping them holding one anyway? It's not illegal, it just won't have UK govt approval. However, this ruling may just have put ten percent onto the yes vote. If so, what does the UK govt do if an unofficial referendum comes back 60/40 in favour of yes? Do they ignore the will of the people?! Good luck with that ending up in anything other than generating yet more support for independence! Don't think Sturgeon will be that upset by this ruling. Catalan tried that few years ago and it’s leaders were tried for sedition & locked up by Spanish. Now that would be interesting. Blackford marched out of the HoC in hand cuffs and Sturgeon bundled into a police van outside Hollyrood.
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Post by swampmongrel on Nov 24, 2022 9:45:10 GMT
Has this country not learned a thing? Referendums are shit. The public are stupid. There should not be one again. I think you need referenda to legitimise constitutional change. The way they’ve been used in the UK has been fine. The problem is there’s been an absence of loser’s consent. In both Scotland and the UK more widely.
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Post by adri2008 on Nov 24, 2022 10:06:07 GMT
The SNP should just run the next general election on a single 'Independence' manifesto. If you vote for them, your voting for independence - make it absolutely crystal clear. If they get a majority of the vote, they have their mandate.
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 24, 2022 10:54:06 GMT
The SNP should just run the next general election on a single 'Independence' manifesto. If you vote for them, your voting for independence - make it absolutely crystal clear. If they get a majority of the vote, they have their mandate. Are you saying over 50 % of votes cast as I’m not sure wee Jimmy will go for that as they’ve never achieved that despite the near walkover of seats
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 24, 2022 10:56:29 GMT
The SNP should just run the next general election on a single 'Independence' manifesto. If you vote for them, your voting for independence - make it absolutely crystal clear. If they get a majority of the vote, they have their mandate. On the single issue of independence possibly they’d probably be un wise to run on there record in government
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 24, 2022 11:09:09 GMT
The SNP should just run the next general election on a single 'Independence' manifesto. If you vote for them, your voting for independence - make it absolutely crystal clear. If they get a majority of the vote, they have their mandate. I’m not sure they can make it that simple. Surely there has to be other policies and manifestos involved, or it can be turned into a referendum (which is what Nicola wants of course) which is not what an election is. If say the SNP had a great policy on the NHS for example and other parties didn’t, but a voter felt that the NHS was more important than independence, then they are being forced into a black and white choice for something they feel strongly about. On the flip side and to the detriment of independence, let’s say the SNP did not reference the NHS, but opposition had a great policy, you could see someone voting for the NHS rather than their desire around independence. I just can’t see it being this simple. I know Boris campaigned on the Brexit ticket at the last election, but this was one of the issues and not the sole issue. Yes he framed the election around Brexit and all parties look to frame their strongest argument whilst still having other items in a manifesto…..this allows a wider consideration of overall points rather than just one and often most voters have to decide on a number of things, some they strongly believe in and some they strongly oppose. Having more points to consider offers allows a more rationale process and decision on what is the best, or least worst option as a whole, because no politician or political party can offer everything that every voter wants, despite their promises.
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Post by adri2008 on Nov 24, 2022 11:41:36 GMT
The SNP should just run the next general election on a single 'Independence' manifesto. If you vote for them, your voting for independence - make it absolutely crystal clear. If they get a majority of the vote, they have their mandate. Are you saying over 50 % of votes cast as I’m not sure wee Jimmy will go for that as they’ve never achieved that despite the near walkover of seats Absolutely - a majority of votes. Obviously it's politically risky but if the SNP have made it crystal clear that a vote for them = a vote for independence then they'd have a clear mandate to pursue it.
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Post by adri2008 on Nov 24, 2022 11:44:35 GMT
The SNP should just run the next general election on a single 'Independence' manifesto. If you vote for them, your voting for independence - make it absolutely crystal clear. If they get a majority of the vote, they have their mandate. I’m not sure they can make it that simple. Surely there has to be other policies and manifestos involved, or it can be turned into a referendum (which is what Nicola wants of course) which is not what an election is. If say the SNP had a great policy on the NHS for example and other parties didn’t, but a voter felt that the NHS was more important than independence, then they are being forced into a black and white choice for something they feel strongly about. On the flip side and to the detriment of independence, let’s say the SNP did not reference the NHS, but opposition had a great policy, you could see someone voting for the NHS rather than their desire around independence. I just can’t see it being this simple. I know Boris campaigned on the Brexit ticket at the last election, but this was one of the issues and not the sole issue. Yes he framed the election around Brexit and all parties look to frame their strongest argument whilst still having other items in a manifesto…..this allows a wider consideration of overall points rather than just one and often most voters have to decide on a number of things, some they strongly believe in and some they strongly oppose. Having more points to consider offers allows a more rationale process and decision on what is the best, or least worst option as a whole, because no politician or political party can offer everything that every voter wants, despite their promises. Obviously it's not ideal but at the very least, the SNP should be putting it as their central policy and then frame the entire manifesto around it. i.e. what an independent Scotland would be like. Force the issue and sell it to the electorate rather than muddying the waters and then grumbling about Westminster's influence.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 24, 2022 11:55:18 GMT
Has this country not learned a thing? Referendums are shit. The public are stupid. There should not be one again. I think you need referenda to legitimise constitutional change. The way they’ve been used in the UK has been fine. The problem is there’s been an absence of loser’s consent. In both Scotland and the UK more widely. I disagree. I just don’t think they serve a purpose and the way they’ve been gone about is wrong. Brexit was a fiction. This isn’t far from it.
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Post by swampmongrel on Nov 24, 2022 12:09:06 GMT
I think you need referenda to legitimise constitutional change. The way they’ve been used in the UK has been fine. The problem is there’s been an absence of loser’s consent. In both Scotland and the UK more widely. I disagree. I just don’t think they serve a purpose and the way they’ve been gone about is wrong. Brexit was a fiction. This isn’t far from it. How else do you legitimise constitutional change then? Or do we just have the status quo. Forever.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 24, 2022 12:20:15 GMT
The SNP should just run the next general election on a single 'Independence' manifesto. If you vote for them, your voting for independence - make it absolutely crystal clear. If they get a majority of the vote, they have their mandate. Those are certainly the noises coming out of Holyrood at the moment. Will be an interesting election next time around. If nothing else, the UK government and the Supreme Court ruling have probably given the independence movement north of the border a big shot in the arm. I'm never quite sure whether the Scots really want independence though, or are happier being able to moan about what the English and Westminster government is doing to them, without actually wanting to change anything. If Brexit and being banned from holding a second referendum don't push the vote over 50%, Sturgeon may as well give up! And to be fair, 'Get Brexit done' worked as a single item policy vote-winner for Bozo. (That and being up against Corbyn).
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Post by wannabee on Nov 24, 2022 12:57:32 GMT
The SNP should just run the next general election on a single 'Independence' manifesto. If you vote for them, your voting for independence - make it absolutely crystal clear. If they get a majority of the vote, they have their mandate. Are you saying over 50 % of votes cast as I’m not sure wee Jimmy will go for that as they’ve never achieved that despite the near walkover of seats I'm not entirely sure they wouldn't get 50% in a Referendum at the last GE SNP/Greens got 46% Currently YouGov Polls put it about 50% Betting you can have 17/20 your choice Yes or No Obviously timing would have a big influence during period September 2020 to June 2021 Polls were showing up to 60% in support due to shenanigans at Downing St. If it had taken place in last 6 months there would have been a f'kin landslide Brexit was a concept which people voted for, it took another 4 and a half years before it became a reality of what was negotiated. Why would Scottish Independence be any different?
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Post by adri2008 on Nov 24, 2022 13:08:23 GMT
The SNP should just run the next general election on a single 'Independence' manifesto. If you vote for them, your voting for independence - make it absolutely crystal clear. If they get a majority of the vote, they have their mandate. Those are certainly the noises coming out of Holyrood at the moment. Will be an interesting election next time around. If nothing else, the UK government and the Supreme Court ruling have probably given the independence movement north of the border a big shot in the arm. I'm never quite sure whether the Scots really want independence though, or are happier being able to moan about what the English and Westminster government is doing to them, without actually wanting to change anything. If Brexit and being banned from holding a second referendum don't push the vote over 50%, Sturgeon may as well give up! And to be fair, 'Get Brexit done' worked as a single item policy vote-winner for Bozo. (That and being up against Corbyn). The SNP has been in a sweet spot of being able to take credit for all the good stuff whilst blaming the Tories down in Westminster for anything bad that occurs. Time to come out of this comfort zone and sell independence to the electorate. Yes it's politically risky and the Scottish electorate may well say 'no thanks' but it's either that or have this rumble on for another decade.
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Post by gawa on Nov 24, 2022 13:25:04 GMT
Has this country not learned a thing? Referendums are shit. The public are stupid. There should not be one again. There should be a referendum absolutely. The Scottish people deserve the opportunity to have independence and would be better off apart from the UK in my opinion. The Irish and Scottish hate the torys and we face the brunt of tory austerity because there are no votes for them to win in our countries. So there's no motive to help. If its a voluntary union then the Scottish deserve the opportunity to choose whether or not they want to stay part of it.
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Post by swampmongrel on Nov 24, 2022 13:46:51 GMT
Has this country not learned a thing? Referendums are shit. The public are stupid. There should not be one again. There should be a referendum absolutely. The Scottish people deserve the opportunity to have independence and would be better off apart from the UK in my opinion. The Irish and Scottish hate the torys and we face the brunt of tory austerity because there are no votes for them to win in our countries. So there's no motive to help. If its a voluntary union then the Scottish deserve the opportunity to choose whether or not they want to stay part of it. NI and Scotland don’t take the brunt of austerity. Public spending in both is higher than England. Rightly in my opinion.
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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 24, 2022 13:54:20 GMT
Has this country not learned a thing? Referendums are shit. The public are stupid. There should not be one again. There should be a referendum absolutely. The Scottish people deserve the opportunity to have independence and would be better off apart from the UK in my opinion. The Irish and Scottish hate the torys and we face the brunt of tory austerity because there are no votes for them to win in our countries. So there's no motive to help. If its a voluntary union then the Scottish deserve the opportunity to choose whether or not they want to stay part of it. The Irish hate the Tory’s? Well the unionist MPs and therefore there voters have for years continued to support a conservative governments Are they not Irish As for the republic there preferences are irrelevant
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Post by gawa on Nov 24, 2022 13:55:01 GMT
There should be a referendum absolutely. The Scottish people deserve the opportunity to have independence and would be better off apart from the UK in my opinion. The Irish and Scottish hate the torys and we face the brunt of tory austerity because there are no votes for them to win in our countries. So there's no motive to help. If its a voluntary union then the Scottish deserve the opportunity to choose whether or not they want to stay part of it. NI and Scotland don’t take the brunt of austerity. Public spending in both is higher than England. Rightly in my opinion. Have you seen our NHS waiting lists? The BBC only report on NHS England 90% of the time but NHS England seems like luxury compared to what we put up with. As for public spending, I don't know the stats and I do Know that we (NI) cost the UK money but is it any wonder when there is little to no investment in the region. London gets 3x the public transport spending per person than what we do despite having a shit ton more people (which should make it cheaper per head) and covering a smaller geographical area. We both voted to stay in the EU. We didn't get it. We vote for parties which have absolutely zero say or influence in Westminster too. We get dictated by who the English vote, and they seem to love a good snake. The UK's a pile of shit and it's mostly due to the scum that the English vote in. Give the Scottish their independence vote and make us next in line for ours so we can get off this sinking ship. Celtic Kingdom of Ireland/NI/Scotland is the future.
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Post by gawa on Nov 24, 2022 13:58:55 GMT
There should be a referendum absolutely. The Scottish people deserve the opportunity to have independence and would be better off apart from the UK in my opinion. The Irish and Scottish hate the torys and we face the brunt of tory austerity because there are no votes for them to win in our countries. So there's no motive to help. If its a voluntary union then the Scottish deserve the opportunity to choose whether or not they want to stay part of it. The Irish hate the Tory’s? Well the unionist MPs and therefore there voters have for years continued to support a conservative governments Are they not Irish As for the republic there preferences are irrelevant Unionists are most definitely not Irish, that's an insult to them lol. And the UUP have distanced themselves from the Tories in recent years too. The only party which props up the tory's are the Dinosaur Unionist Party and even they're losing their patience now. Maybe the TUV twats too. Between them they didn't even get 30% of the first preference votes at the last election. Get us off this sinking ship ASAP. At least it might help Englands immigration issues. I think even the migrants would rather fair their chances crossing the irish sea rather than end up on English shores Probably easier to see a doctor in Africa lol.
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Post by Northy on Nov 24, 2022 14:00:45 GMT
NI and Scotland don’t take the brunt of austerity. Public spending in both is higher than England. Rightly in my opinion. Have you seen our NHS waiting lists? The BBC only report on NHS England 90% of the time but NHS England seems like luxury compared to what we put up with. As for public spending, I don't know the stats and I do Know that we (NI) cost the UK money but is it any wonder when there is little to no investment in the region. London gets 3x the public transport spending per person than what we do despite having a shit ton more people (which should make it cheaper per head) and covering a smaller geographical area. We both voted to stay in the EU. We didn't get it. We vote for parties which have absolutely zero say or influence in Westminster too. We get dictated by who the English vote, and they seem to love a good snake. The UK's a pile of shit and it's mostly due to the scum that the English vote in. Give the Scottish their independence vote and make us next in line for ours so we can get off this sinking ship. Celtic Kingdom of Ireland/NI/Scotland is the future. You are lucky, London gets 5 times more than the north of England, and probably 10 times more than Stoke. Have they finished that new dual carriageway from Belfast to Derry/Londonderry yet ?
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Post by gawa on Nov 24, 2022 14:08:07 GMT
Have you seen our NHS waiting lists? The BBC only report on NHS England 90% of the time but NHS England seems like luxury compared to what we put up with. As for public spending, I don't know the stats and I do Know that we (NI) cost the UK money but is it any wonder when there is little to no investment in the region. London gets 3x the public transport spending per person than what we do despite having a shit ton more people (which should make it cheaper per head) and covering a smaller geographical area. We both voted to stay in the EU. We didn't get it. We vote for parties which have absolutely zero say or influence in Westminster too. We get dictated by who the English vote, and they seem to love a good snake. The UK's a pile of shit and it's mostly due to the scum that the English vote in. Give the Scottish their independence vote and make us next in line for ours so we can get off this sinking ship. Celtic Kingdom of Ireland/NI/Scotland is the future. You are lucky, London gets 5 times more than the north of England, and probably 10 times more than Stoke. Have they finished that new dual carriageway from Belfast to Derry/Londonderry yet ? At least you have a say in which party makes the big decisions to govern the country. I know all too well about the poverty in the North East as I have ALOT of family from Redcar which funnily enough had their steel works demolished yesterday. The same steel works which was used to help build 9 of the 10 largest buildings in the world before being shutdown under Tory rule 7 years ago. I think if the North East could, they'd probably defer to join Scotland too to escape the grips of tory austerity and inequality. We've not had a new dual carriageway from Belfast to Derry. A dual carriageway from Belfast to the North coast was already there and has been for years. They've simply extended part of it but it's certainly not a new dual carriageway between Belfast and Derry.
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Post by wannabee on Nov 24, 2022 14:14:11 GMT
There should be a referendum absolutely. The Scottish people deserve the opportunity to have independence and would be better off apart from the UK in my opinion. The Irish and Scottish hate the torys and we face the brunt of tory austerity because there are no votes for them to win in our countries. So there's no motive to help. If its a voluntary union then the Scottish deserve the opportunity to choose whether or not they want to stay part of it. The Irish hate the Tory’s? Well the unionist MPs and therefore there voters have for years continued to support a conservative governments Are they not Irish As for the republic there preferences are irrelevant In the context of what is being discussed of course What the ROI Preference might be is irrelevant You do know that DUP MPs at Westminster and MLAs at Northern-ireland Assembly are a Minority? and are on a downward irreversible spiral They tend be rather Bellicose like Johnathan Gullis which is perhaps why they may have gathered your attention
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