|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 25, 2022 8:54:41 GMT
Nationalisation might not be for all but it sure beats the current system we have in this country of nationalising the debt when these companies are in trouble, but privatising the profit when they’re making money and lining their shareholders pockets……
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 25, 2022 9:39:58 GMT
Nationalisation might not be for all but it sure beats the current system we have in this country of nationalising the debt when these companies are in trouble, but privatising the profit when they’re making money and lining their shareholders pockets…… Lining their shareholders pockets ? Average profit for the franchises is 2%, the franchises lease their rolling stock and mostly outsource the maintenance, nationalising all that will cost hundreds of billions, thats before you get onto funding the pensions for staff and the associated increase in strike action. The railway is infinitely better, cleaner and quicker than in the old BR days, the biggest complaint you hear is the cost compared to the continent, one of the biggest reasons for this is pay of staff look at salaries of drivers in europe or as my mate calls himself a glorified bus driver.
|
|
|
Post by mutters on Jun 25, 2022 14:18:47 GMT
Nationalisation might not be for all but it sure beats the current system we have in this country of nationalising the debt when these companies are in trouble, but privatising the profit when they’re making money and lining their shareholders pockets…… Lining their shareholders pockets ? Average profit for the franchises is 2%, the franchises lease their rolling stock and mostly outsource the maintenance, nationalising all that will cost hundreds of billions, thats before you get onto funding the pensions for staff and the associated increase in strike action. The railway is infinitely better, cleaner and quicker than in the old BR days, the biggest complaint you hear is the cost compared to the continent, one of the biggest reasons for this is pay of staff look at salaries of drivers in europe or as my mate calls himself a glorified bus driver. How much money is made by the leaseholders of the rolling stock? How much money is made using interest instruments allowing money to be paid offshore as interest. Maybe not always the shareholders, but often very closely linked in ownership terms
|
|
|
Post by mutters on Jun 25, 2022 14:24:05 GMT
The British transport group, Go Ahead, operate trains and buses in Germany. Somehow they manage to do this even though the Germans government has introduced a nationwide 9€ public transport ticket! Had the €9 ticket when I recently travelled from Salzburg to Munich and used all the transport in Munich Amazing value and may be using it in August if I go back - Sadly have to pay €9 for another month of transport
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 25, 2022 15:15:37 GMT
Nationalisation might not be for all but it sure beats the current system we have in this country of nationalising the debt when these companies are in trouble, but privatising the profit when they’re making money and lining their shareholders pockets…… Lining their shareholders pockets ? Average profit for the franchises is 2%, the franchises lease their rolling stock and mostly outsource the maintenance, nationalising all that will cost hundreds of billions, thats before you get onto funding the pensions for staff and the associated increase in strike action. The railway is infinitely better, cleaner and quicker than in the old BR days, the biggest complaint you hear is the cost compared to the continent, one of the biggest reasons for this is pay of staff look at salaries of drivers in europe or as my mate calls himself a glorified bus driver. The CBI's £200b claim has already been debunked, taking each franchise one by one as they come to and end would reduce the costs massively. And they may be better, cleaner and quicker (they're not in some parts of the country by the way the UK is not London) but they are seriously unaffordable for most people to use regularly........
|
|
|
Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 25, 2022 15:24:07 GMT
Lining their shareholders pockets ? Average profit for the franchises is 2%, the franchises lease their rolling stock and mostly outsource the maintenance, nationalising all that will cost hundreds of billions, thats before you get onto funding the pensions for staff and the associated increase in strike action. The railway is infinitely better, cleaner and quicker than in the old BR days, the biggest complaint you hear is the cost compared to the continent, one of the biggest reasons for this is pay of staff look at salaries of drivers in europe or as my mate calls himself a glorified bus driver. The CBI's £200b claim has already been debunked, taking each franchise one by one as they come to and end would reduce the costs massively. And they may be better, cleaner and quicker (they're not in some parts of the country by the way the UK is not London) but they are seriously unaffordable for most people to use regularly........ I use it every week day, it costs me £35 a week. It also covers weekends. So that’s £5 a day for what would be in a car around 280 miles per week. So cheaper than driving I’d imagine? And I’m not sitting in traffic for an hour and I can snooze, use the internet, and ogle hot chicks during the commute. It’s a no brainer for me.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 25, 2022 16:17:00 GMT
Lining their shareholders pockets ? Average profit for the franchises is 2%, the franchises lease their rolling stock and mostly outsource the maintenance, nationalising all that will cost hundreds of billions, thats before you get onto funding the pensions for staff and the associated increase in strike action. The railway is infinitely better, cleaner and quicker than in the old BR days, the biggest complaint you hear is the cost compared to the continent, one of the biggest reasons for this is pay of staff look at salaries of drivers in europe or as my mate calls himself a glorified bus driver. How much money is made by the leaseholders of the rolling stock? How much money is made using interest instruments allowing money to be paid offshore as interest. Maybe not always the shareholders, but often very closely linked in ownership terms Not sure what you mean the franchises lease the rolling stock from leasing companies, they make reasonable profits but then they need too to be able to buy new rolling stock. There are restrictions on the amount of intercompany interest that is allowed for tax again not sure what interest instruments you are talking about but not sure why the rolling stock companies would use anything like that because as the owners of the trainsets they get capital allowances.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 25, 2022 16:25:57 GMT
Lining their shareholders pockets ? Average profit for the franchises is 2%, the franchises lease their rolling stock and mostly outsource the maintenance, nationalising all that will cost hundreds of billions, thats before you get onto funding the pensions for staff and the associated increase in strike action. The railway is infinitely better, cleaner and quicker than in the old BR days, the biggest complaint you hear is the cost compared to the continent, one of the biggest reasons for this is pay of staff look at salaries of drivers in europe or as my mate calls himself a glorified bus driver. The CBI's £200b claim has already been debunked, taking each franchise one by one as they come to and end would reduce the costs massively. And they may be better, cleaner and quicker (they're not in some parts of the country by the way the UK is not London) but they are seriously unaffordable for most people to use regularly........ I am not talking about the franchises I am talking about the cost of buying the trains, coaches, maintenance facilities etc etc etc The major costs for the train companies are network rail track access fees, fuel, maintenance and leasing of fleet and staff costs, none of these come down on nationalisation. The idea that trains are unaffordable for people to use regularly is also a bit of myth, for work the biggest problem is most people dont work close to a station and outside of the major cities the connecting transport to take people onwards is pretty poor.
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 25, 2022 16:31:42 GMT
How much money is made by the leaseholders of the rolling stock? How much money is made using interest instruments allowing money to be paid offshore as interest. Maybe not always the shareholders, but often very closely linked in ownership terms Not sure what you mean the franchises lease the rolling stock from leasing companies, they make reasonable profits but then they need too to be able to buy new rolling stock. There are restrictions on the amount of intercompany interest that is allowed for tax again not sure what interest instruments you are talking about but not sure why the rolling stock companies would use anything like that because as the owners of the trainsets they get capital allowances. Ah, the ROSCO's www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/-Taken-for-a-Ride-Rolling-Stock-Privatisation-Slammed-in-New-Study
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 25, 2022 16:41:07 GMT
The CBI's £200b claim has already been debunked, taking each franchise one by one as they come to and end would reduce the costs massively. And they may be better, cleaner and quicker (they're not in some parts of the country by the way the UK is not London) but they are seriously unaffordable for most people to use regularly........ I am not talking about the franchises I am talking about the cost of buying the trains, coaches, maintenance facilities etc etc etc The major costs for the train companies are network rail track access fees, fuel, maintenance and leasing of fleet and staff costs, none of these come down on nationalisation. The idea that trains are unaffordable for people to use regularly is also a bit of myth, for work the biggest problem is most people dont work close to a station and outside of the major cities the connecting transport to take people onwards is pretty poor. Companies like Angel, Eversholt and Porterbrook paid out a billion pounds in dividends whilst paying very little tax from their Jersey and Luxembourg headquarters. They need to be cut out of the equation as part of an overall solution, or at the very least parameters put in place that don’t involve the tax payer funding their windfalls……
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 25, 2022 16:48:07 GMT
Nationalisation might not be for all but it sure beats the current system we have in this country of nationalising the debt when these companies are in trouble, but privatising the profit when they’re making money and lining their shareholders pockets…… The railway is infinitely better, cleaner and quicker than in the old BR days, Ok, as 'better' is a matter of opinion and 'cleaner' hard to measure, please at least tell me how Blythe-Bridge to Derby is infinitely quicker than in BR days?
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 25, 2022 19:06:35 GMT
Not sure what you mean the franchises lease the rolling stock from leasing companies, they make reasonable profits but then they need too to be able to buy new rolling stock. There are restrictions on the amount of intercompany interest that is allowed for tax again not sure what interest instruments you are talking about but not sure why the rolling stock companies would use anything like that because as the owners of the trainsets they get capital allowances. Ah, the ROSCO's www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/-Taken-for-a-Ride-Rolling-Stock-Privatisation-Slammed-in-New-StudyYes those there were rumours even their office cleaning staff made 6 figure profits.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 25, 2022 19:09:37 GMT
Public for me
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 25, 2022 19:13:51 GMT
I am not talking about the franchises I am talking about the cost of buying the trains, coaches, maintenance facilities etc etc etc The major costs for the train companies are network rail track access fees, fuel, maintenance and leasing of fleet and staff costs, none of these come down on nationalisation. The idea that trains are unaffordable for people to use regularly is also a bit of myth, for work the biggest problem is most people dont work close to a station and outside of the major cities the connecting transport to take people onwards is pretty poor. Companies like Angel, Eversholt and Porterbrook paid out a billion pounds in dividends whilst paying very little tax from their Jersey and Luxembourg headquarters. They need to be cut out of the equation as part of an overall solution, or at the very least parameters put in place that don’t involve the tax payer funding their windfalls…… The rolling stock companies pay little tax because they have capital allowances on the fixed assets (locos, carriages) to utilise against taxable profits, no different to any other business. Dividends are paid from profit after tax so where there HQ are is irrelevant because even if they were UK based intercompany dividends are not taxable because they have already been taxed once. Those profits also fund investment in new rolling stock.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 25, 2022 19:18:00 GMT
The railway is infinitely better, cleaner and quicker than in the old BR days, Ok, as 'better' is a matter of opinion and 'cleaner' hard to measure, please at least tell me how Blythe-Bridge to Derby is infinitely quicker than in BR days? You're not going to get much difference on stopper trains but mainline trains derby, sheffield, leicester, donny, brum, stafford, manchester, stoke and many more I've seen reductions in time and generally better service.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 25, 2022 19:37:59 GMT
Companies like Angel, Eversholt and Porterbrook paid out a billion pounds in dividends whilst paying very little tax from their Jersey and Luxembourg headquarters. They need to be cut out of the equation as part of an overall solution, or at the very least parameters put in place that don’t involve the tax payer funding their windfalls…… The rolling stock companies pay little tax because they have capital allowances on the fixed assets (locos, carriages) to utilise against taxable profits, no different to any other business. Dividends are paid from profit after tax so where there HQ are is irrelevant because even if they were UK based intercompany dividends are not taxable because they have already been taxed once. Those profits also fund investment in new rolling stock. I’m not surprised you’re defending the current system I’m simply saying it doesn’t have to be that way, it’s a shit deal for the tax payer…………
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 25, 2022 19:57:18 GMT
Ok, as 'better' is a matter of opinion and 'cleaner' hard to measure, please at least tell me how Blythe-Bridge to Derby is infinitely quicker than in BR days? You're not going to get much difference on stopper trains but mainline trains derby, sheffield, leicester, donny, brum, stafford, manchester, stoke and many more I've seen reductions in time and generally better service. But many of those where reductions in time are only what would have been expected whether operated by the private or state sector over a quarter of a century as next generation rolling stock came into use. It's similar to when BR introduced InterCity 125's in the mid-late '70's resulting in significant journey time reductions on the Great Western and East Coast routes. By the mid-1990's the Inter City trains Euston-Manchester were still being worked by 1960's and 1970's locos which would have needed replacement anyway. The upgrade of the West Coast mainline enabling some of the journey time reductions needed significant taxpayer funding to be realised. This is not meant to portray the BR days as perfect , they were far from it, but by the late 1980's /early '90's it had been dragged into being a more business-led organisation . Privatisation meanwhile has not been all bad -it has brought some innovations and can reasonably claim to have resulted in better frequencies on many routes. I don't think there would be any value in renationalising the freight businesses , but LNER seems to be doing quite well as a state-owned operator. I will be interested to see if/how the best elements of the private sector are retained in the proposed new framework of 'Great' British Railways.
|
|
|
Post by JoeinOz on Jun 26, 2022 0:36:21 GMT
Any employee who stands up for their rights should be incarcerated.
|
|
|
Post by mutters on Jun 26, 2022 6:17:51 GMT
Not sure thats a great example. When was the last time you could get a train back to Stoke after an 8 o clock kick off at Wembley or pretty much any midweek Stoke away game with our wonderful privatised railways? It was after the Serbia Montengro match - October 2019 I think From memory it was due off Euston at 2330, into Stoke at 0105 It was about 10 minutes late No longer listed at that time to travel
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 26, 2022 9:08:46 GMT
The rolling stock companies pay little tax because they have capital allowances on the fixed assets (locos, carriages) to utilise against taxable profits, no different to any other business. Dividends are paid from profit after tax so where there HQ are is irrelevant because even if they were UK based intercompany dividends are not taxable because they have already been taxed once. Those profits also fund investment in new rolling stock. I’m not surprised you’re defending the current system I’m simply saying it doesn’t have to be that way, it’s a shit deal for the tax payer………… I'm not surprised you don't understand.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 26, 2022 9:19:30 GMT
You're not going to get much difference on stopper trains but mainline trains derby, sheffield, leicester, donny, brum, stafford, manchester, stoke and many more I've seen reductions in time and generally better service. But many of those where reductions in time are only what would have been expected whether operated by the private or state sector over a quarter of a century as next generation rolling stock came into use. It's similar to when BR introduced InterCity 125's in the mid-late '70's resulting in significant journey time reductions on the Great Western and East Coast routes. By the mid-1990's the Inter City trains Euston-Manchester were still being worked by 1960's and 1970's locos which would have needed replacement anyway. The upgrade of the West Coast mainline enabling some of the journey time reductions needed significant taxpayer funding to be realised. This is not meant to portray the BR days as perfect , they were far from it, but by the late 1980's /early '90's it had been dragged into being a more business-led organisation . Privatisation meanwhile has not been all bad -it has brought some innovations and can reasonably claim to have resulted in better frequencies on many routes. I don't think there would be any value in renationalising the freight businesses , but LNER seems to be doing quite well as a state-owned operator. I will be interested to see if/how the best elements of the private sector are retained in the proposed new framework of 'Great' British Railways. There's some truth in there, the only problem is that some of these decisions are long term whereas governments of all colours generally concentrate on short term, put fares up to fund big projects or take the votes and leave it to the next lot, thats the main reason I'd leave it as it is. While you are right the west coast upgrade was publicly funded, it gets paid back through track access fees and fares, if a government wanted to cut fares it could quite easily by cutting track access fees but then it would have to fund the shortfall out of other taxation, you can make arguments for and against that but again it seems fairer those who use rail the most contribute most towards it.
|
|
|
Post by elystokie on Jun 26, 2022 9:37:42 GMT
However they do it in most of Europe will do for me, trains seem clean, I've always got a seat, they run on time, you don't need a mortgage to buy a ticket and the pricing structure doesn't appear totally ridiculous.
I've just tried to buy a return ticket to Stafford from Stoke, can't do that says the man, only singles or a day return can be purchased.
I wouldn't need to travel to Stafford if there was a decent, reasonably priced service to London from Stoke but for some bizarre reason, there isn't.
Edit - and the train to Stafford was ten minutes or so late arriving despite leaving on time (thankfully I allowed plenty of time for the connection) it's only a 20 minute journey ffs.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 26, 2022 11:03:21 GMT
I’m not surprised you’re defending the current system I’m simply saying it doesn’t have to be that way, it’s a shit deal for the tax payer………… I'm not surprised you don't understand. I think I understand you pretty well actually…….
|
|
|
Post by ashleyscfc on Jun 26, 2022 12:29:08 GMT
Public, if the rest of Europe seems to run cheap, reliable, clean railways why can’t we?
Yes it wouldn’t be perfect but if we’re going to get fucked anyway I’d rather us have a say over it than giving it all to Branson and Co
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 26, 2022 20:54:56 GMT
Public, if the rest of Europe seems to run cheap, reliable, clean railways why can’t we? Yes it wouldn’t be perfect but if we’re going to get fucked anyway I’d rather us have a say over it than giving it all to Branson and Co Most of Europe pays its drivers €30k a year, we pay ticket office staff more than that.
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 26, 2022 21:21:26 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 27, 2022 5:39:00 GMT
Public, if the rest of Europe seems to run cheap, reliable, clean railways why can’t we? Yes it wouldn’t be perfect but if we’re going to get fucked anyway I’d rather us have a say over it than giving it all to Branson and Co Most of Europe pays its drivers €30k a year, we pay ticket office staff more than that. The drivers aren't involved in the strikes...https://fullfact.org/economy/RMT-strike-salary/ Some pretty disingenuous use of figures from Shapps by the looks of it. Not all that surprising from someone who plays fast and loose with his own name, I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Jun 27, 2022 6:09:07 GMT
Most of Europe pays its drivers €30k a year, we pay ticket office staff more than that. The drivers aren't involved in the strikes...https://fullfact.org/economy/RMT-strike-salary/ Some pretty disingenuous use of figures from Shapps by the looks of it. Not all that surprising from someone who plays fast and loose with his own name, I suppose. Some equally disingenuous use of figures by the RMT too Shapps - £44k RMT - £31k More or Less (referenced in the article but not by you in your usual blinkered view of the world) - £38k So, the “truth” is pretty much smack in the middle.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Jun 27, 2022 9:42:19 GMT
|
|
|
Post by cerebralstokie on Jun 27, 2022 11:10:03 GMT
In and out of London is fine - but expensive if you want to travel at peak times. I recently caught a train from Ely to Stockport - part of the East Midlands Norwich to Manchester service. The train consisted of two carriages; the rolling stock was from the last century; there was no on board trolley service, no on board information. When the train arrived in Nottingham, large numbers leaving Trent Bridge after close of play in the Test Match wished to board. Many of these were the worse for wear, but this did not prevent them from carrying substantial amounts of liquid refreshment on board. To add insult to injury the train was unable to proceed via Stockport and went straight to Manchester instead. To me, it seems as though franchisees have concentrated on investing in lucrative inter city lines while neglecting some of the less well used connecting lines. Completely on another subject, I saw the Stoke to Derby line included in a book on "Great U.K.Railway Journeys"!
|
|