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Post by partickpotter on Apr 1, 2022 6:31:02 GMT
Today sees a big day in the world of Rail; ScotRail goes back into public ownershipPredictably, the Tories don’t like the idea pointing out the omnishambles of current state owned transport endeavours like ferries and Prestwick Airport. The Unions on the other hand are very happy…as some bloke from Aslef says “The railway should be for the people, by the people.” I suspect most folk don’t much care for the political sound bites and point scoring but are interested in getting a decent service. We shall see over the coming years how well a public railway runs. |
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Post by brotherleelove on Apr 1, 2022 7:08:20 GMT
Today sees a big day in the world of Rail; ScotRail goes back into public ownershipPredictably, the Tories don’t like the idea pointing out the omnishambles of current state owned transport endeavours like ferries and Prestwick Airport. The Unions on the other hand are very happy…as some bloke from Aslef says “The railway should be for the people, by the people.” I suspect most folk don’t much care for the political sound bites and point scoring but are interested in getting a decent service. We shall see over the coming years how well a public railway runs. I can't stand the SNP generally but I'm with them on this one. I've always thought essential services should be run not for profit and that includes our Railways. |
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Post by felonious on Apr 1, 2022 7:24:56 GMT
It should be a no brainer it's made for public ownership until you factor the unions and pay strikes into the equation then the enthusiasm wanes.
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Post by chuffedstokie on Apr 1, 2022 7:26:41 GMT
The whole network is run and maintained by the Dept of transport through Network Rail and is a not for profit organisation with everything it does channelled back into govt. The system is devolved into 5 regions run and managed independently, Scotland being an entire region in it's own right. Train operating companies then use the hardware.
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Post by spiderpuss on Apr 1, 2022 7:29:04 GMT
Only time will tell, public transport should be in the public domain, instead of filling shareholders pockets. If Scottish rail keeps its prices keen and it's a reliable regular service - great. If it's a strike laden shambles from the 70s, then we know the answer.
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 1, 2022 8:04:39 GMT
This article is worth a read… The SNP ferries fiasco has taken another nasty turn. It highlights an intrinsic problem with nationalised industries… who is held to account by who? As you can see from this article, the government holds itself to account (or tries to… in this case Audit Scotland have somehow managed to keep sufficient distance from Government to raise some significant questions the SNP are busy either deflecting or outright lying about.) For me the question of railways, or pretty much any industry, is one of efficiency; what delivers the best results. This means, ultimately, a well run operation which requires clear accountability. If you end up with a situation where the “management” marks it’s own homework you have a serious problem. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 1, 2022 8:07:26 GMT
Public ownership pf key utilities is the way forward. However scrutiny and oversight are equally important, hence workers and the public should be appointed to their respective management structures.
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Post by franklin on Apr 1, 2022 8:13:07 GMT
All key utilities and railways should be nationalised but we are unable to run them correctly unlike our continental friends.
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Post by dutchstokie on Apr 1, 2022 8:19:29 GMT
Public ownership pf key utilities is the way forward. However scrutiny and oversight are equally important, hence workers and the public should be appointed to their respective management structures. For once we're in agreement. THis is how its set up in NL. State run with appointed members in the correct positions according to their input......meaning joe public ( whoever that is) has part responsibility. The Dutchies are well renowned for being straight to the point and if something isnt right, they get on their high horse and do something about it. The rail system is absolutely bob on I have to admit. ANother reason for a select few to live here.  (Obviousaly I'll be vetting all applicants - particularly ones with long blonde hair and long legs) |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 1, 2022 8:27:21 GMT
Public ownership pf key utilities is the way forward. However scrutiny and oversight are equally important, hence workers and the public should be appointed to their respective management structures. For once we're in agreement. THis is how its set up in NL. State run with appointed members in the correct positions according to their input......meaning joe public ( whoever that is) has part responsibility. The Dutchies are well renowned for being straight to the point and if something isnt right, they get on their high horse and do something about it. The rail system is absolutely bob on I have to admit. ANother reason for a select few to live here. (Obviousaly I'll be vetting all applicants - particularly ones with long blonde hair and long legs) Yep the Dutch have it well sorted. And behave yourself |
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Post by brotherleelove on Apr 1, 2022 8:37:13 GMT
Only time will tell, public transport should be in the public domain, instead of filling shareholders pockets. If Scottish rail keeps its prices keen and it's a reliable regular service - great. If it's a strike laden shambles from the 70s, then we know the answer. I would hope the Unions have learned from the 70's,in saying that. Having worked in both the public and private sectors myself. The public sector Unions always got us the better deals as workers with employers. No easy equation to solve but we shall see. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2022 9:06:14 GMT
Definitely public. Everyone should be allowed on trains
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Post by chuffedstokie on Apr 1, 2022 9:08:53 GMT
Public ownership pf key utilities is the way forward. However scrutiny and oversight are equally important, hence workers and the public should be appointed to their respective management structures. For once we're in agreement. THis is how its set up in NL. State run with appointed members in the correct positions according to their input......meaning joe public ( whoever that is) has part responsibility. The Dutchies are well renowned for being straight to the point and if something isnt right, they get on their high horse and do something about it. The rail system is absolutely bob on I have to admit. ANother reason for a select few to live here. (Obviousaly I'll be vetting all applicants - particularly ones with long blonde hair and long legs) I might not fit your latter criteria but having used the Netherlands rail network mostly for hockey trips it's a very good integrated efficient system, given the fact it links in with it's neighbouring countries makes it more so. Flying into Schipol and almost walking straight onto the train is pretty good. Woe betide being late!. Impressed with Amersfoort. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 1, 2022 9:50:29 GMT
There seems to be general agreement, so far on here at least, that essential public services and utilities in this country should be in state hands so that ordinary people benefit from a good service and these companies are not sold off to the highest, usually foreign, bidder whose sole motivation is profit-making (profiteering) whilst still not providing a good service.
That being the case, and at the risk of the usual comments about party political point-scoring, I would suggest people think more closely about how they vote.
Apologies if bringing party politics into it wasn't what anyone wanted, but I can't escape from the fact that, in a democracy, this is the only way to effect change.
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 1, 2022 10:14:01 GMT
Public ownership pf key utilities is the way forward. However scrutiny and oversight are equally important, hence workers and the public should be appointed to their respective management structures. For once we're in agreement. THis is how its set up in NL. State run with appointed members in the correct positions according to their input......meaning joe public ( whoever that is) has part responsibility. The Dutchies are well renowned for being straight to the point and if something isnt right, they get on their high horse and do something about it. The rail system is absolutely bob on I have to admit. ANother reason for a select few to live here. (Obviousaly I'll be vetting all applicants - particularly ones with long blonde hair and long legs) It was a Dutch rail company, Abellio, running Scotrail up to yesterday. So, I’m wondering how what is happening in Scotland (and the UK generally) differs from the Netherlands. It seems to me that Scotland is moving to an entirely public system where everything related to trains is public owned. Is that the case in the Netherlands or is there some form of public / private arrangement? |
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Post by franklin on Apr 1, 2022 10:44:06 GMT
For once we're in agreement. THis is how its set up in NL. State run with appointed members in the correct positions according to their input......meaning joe public ( whoever that is) has part responsibility. The Dutchies are well renowned for being straight to the point and if something isnt right, they get on their high horse and do something about it. The rail system is absolutely bob on I have to admit. ANother reason for a select few to live here. (Obviousaly I'll be vetting all applicants - particularly ones with long blonde hair and long legs) It was a Dutch rail company, Abellio, running Scotrail up to yesterday. So, I’m wondering how what is happening in Scotland (and the UK generally) differs from the Netherlands. It seems to me that Scotland is moving to an entirely public system where everything related to trains is public owned. Is that the case in the Netherlands or is there some form of public / private arrangement? We should get DB to sort I out imho, I'm not an expert on their finances but Jesus they run trains like clockwork. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 1, 2022 10:48:04 GMT
There seems to be general agreement, so far on here at least, that essential public services and utilities in this country should be in state hands so that ordinary people benefit from a good service and these companies are not sold off to the highest, usually foreign, bidder whose sole motivation is profit-making (profiteering) whilst still not providing a good service. That being the case, and at the risk of the usual comments about party political point-scoring, I would suggest people think more closely about how they vote. Apologies if bringing party politics into it wasn't what anyone wanted, but I can't escape from the fact that, in a democracy, this is the only way to effect change. Who do we vote for to bring these essential public services into state hands just out of interest? |
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Post by lordb on Apr 1, 2022 11:14:43 GMT
All key utilities and railways should be nationalised but we are unable to run them correctly unlike our continental friends. Get them to run it |
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Post by chuffedstokie on Apr 1, 2022 11:23:33 GMT
For once we're in agreement. THis is how its set up in NL. State run with appointed members in the correct positions according to their input......meaning joe public ( whoever that is) has part responsibility. The Dutchies are well renowned for being straight to the point and if something isnt right, they get on their high horse and do something about it. The rail system is absolutely bob on I have to admit. ANother reason for a select few to live here. (Obviousaly I'll be vetting all applicants - particularly ones with long blonde hair and long legs) It was a Dutch rail company, Abellio, running Scotrail up to yesterday. So, I’m wondering how what is happening in Scotland (and the UK generally) differs from the Netherlands. It seems to me that Scotland is moving to an entirely public system where everything related to trains is public owned. Is that the case in the Netherlands or is there some form of public / private arrangement? In the UK the infrastructure ie rails, bridges, viaducts, signalling (some stations) maintenance and repair is all state owned (Network Rail) and assuming it's all fit for purpose which unfortunately a lot isn't there's no reason a system shouldn't run smoothly. But with every piece of rail traffic using the system at the same time it can get jammed. Admittedly some of the operating companies are more professional than others. There's a lot of single track working in this country which slows everything down massively. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 1, 2022 11:29:44 GMT
There seems to be general agreement, so far on here at least, that essential public services and utilities in this country should be in state hands so that ordinary people benefit from a good service and these companies are not sold off to the highest, usually foreign, bidder whose sole motivation is profit-making (profiteering) whilst still not providing a good service. That being the case, and at the risk of the usual comments about party political point-scoring, I would suggest people think more closely about how they vote. Apologies if bringing party politics into it wasn't what anyone wanted, but I can't escape from the fact that, in a democracy, this is the only way to effect change. Who do we vote for to bring these essential public services into state hands just out of interest? Starmer: "Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system." Let's see whether that makes it into his manifesto, but there it is. As I've said many times, they're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but good luck with finding more of a commitment to public ownership from any other party capable of forming a government. That's the point. |
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Post by franklin on Apr 1, 2022 11:56:41 GMT
All key utilities and railways should be nationalised but we are unable to run them correctly unlike our continental friends. Get them to run it Absolutely you can set your watch by the trains in Germany, I've never waited for a late train in years of visiting always on time and they are every few mins. I time my last drink knowing full well the train will be there on time to get me home. |
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 1, 2022 11:58:41 GMT
It was a Dutch rail company, Abellio, running Scotrail up to yesterday. So, I’m wondering how what is happening in Scotland (and the UK generally) differs from the Netherlands. It seems to me that Scotland is moving to an entirely public system where everything related to trains is public owned. Is that the case in the Netherlands or is there some form of public / private arrangement? In the UK the infrastructure ie rails, bridges, viaducts, signalling (some stations) maintenance and repair is all state owned (Network Rail) and assuming it's all fit for purpose which unfortunately a lot isn't there's no reason a system shouldn't run smoothly. But with every piece of rail traffic using the system at the same time it can get jammed. Admittedly some of the operating companies are more professional than others. There's a lot of single track working in this country which slows everything down massively. I think I know the answer. The Dutch and British systems are very similar. Both separate the infrastructure from the operations. In both systems the infrastructure company is state owned. The difference is that the Dutch have a state owned operator competing with private sector companies to run the trains. This is something of a concern for the private companies who see the state company as having unfair advantages as well as the EU who have competition concerns over the Dutch system. Well, that’s the answer from a structural perspective. Does this account for why trains are running better in the Netherlands (assuming they are). Or are there factors… better operations management, better systems, better people, more subsidy, higher (or lower) prices, more customers, more cost effective infrastructure (the uk geography and demographics are very different to the Netherlands). Probably a mix of all of these. Certainly quite complicated… because no one has ever found a good solution. A bit like the health service in that regard! |
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 1, 2022 11:59:36 GMT
All key utilities and railways should be nationalised but we are unable to run them correctly unlike our continental friends. Get them to run it A Dutch company (a subsidiary of the public Dutch rail company no less) was running Scotrail… which didn’t seem to work out. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 1, 2022 12:04:31 GMT
Who do we vote for to bring these essential public services into state hands just out of interest? Starmer: "Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system." Let's see whether that makes it into his manifesto, but there it is. As I've said many times, they're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but good luck with finding more of a commitment to public ownership from any other party capable of forming a government. That's the point. That quote is taken from his 10 pledges, he's pretty much broken all of them already. "He's also a liar, but he does it with a nice haircut and smart suit on" isn't going to wash with a lot of the electorate whether you keep telling them it should or not. I have absolutely no evidence to suggest his stance on nationalising the rail industry would be any different........ |
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Post by chuffedstokie on Apr 1, 2022 12:26:57 GMT
In the UK the infrastructure ie rails, bridges, viaducts, signalling (some stations) maintenance and repair is all state owned (Network Rail) and assuming it's all fit for purpose which unfortunately a lot isn't there's no reason a system shouldn't run smoothly. But with every piece of rail traffic using the system at the same time it can get jammed. Admittedly some of the operating companies are more professional than others. There's a lot of single track working in this country which slows everything down massively. I think I know the answer. The Dutch and British systems are very similar. Both separate the infrastructure from the operations. In both systems the infrastructure company is state owned. The difference is that the Dutch have a state owned operator competing with private sector companies to run the trains. This is something of a concern for the private companies who see the state company as having unfair advantages as well as the EU who have competition concerns over the Dutch system. Well, that’s the answer from a structural perspective. Does this account for why trains are running better in the Netherlands (assuming they are). Or are there factors… better operations management, better systems, better people, more subsidy, higher (or lower) prices, more customers, more cost effective infrastructure (the uk geography and demographics are very different to the Netherlands). Probably a mix of all of these. Certainly quite complicated… because no one has ever found a good solution. A bit like the health service in that regard! Railways find themselves in a very unique position within public opinion, almost a victim of its own success (occasionally). It's gone from a steam hauled decrepit outfit post war which no one used to a service people want to use so capacity has to grow with the demand. Many routes were unviable and Dr Beeching handed in his report. Now some branch lines are being looked at in a new light and it ain't easy recommisioning an old line. Transport for Wales took over from AVIVA here, they repainted the old stock and promptly reduced the service and made redundancies, don't know what they were thinking. I'm no apologist for the railways and I'm sure it can be managed better. I'd hate to have a job that goes anywhere near timetabling!. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 1, 2022 12:31:54 GMT
Starmer: "Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system." Let's see whether that makes it into his manifesto, but there it is. As I've said many times, they're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but good luck with finding more of a commitment to public ownership from any other party capable of forming a government. That's the point. That quote is taken from his 10 pledges, he's pretty much broken all of them already. "He's also a liar, but he does it with a nice haircut and smart suit on" isn't going to wash with a lot of the electorate whether you keep telling them it should or not. I have absolutely no evidence to suggest his stance on nationalising the rail industry would be any different........ Well, keep doing what you're doing then, helping out locally and helping the Tories to get re-elected nationally. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 1, 2022 12:34:37 GMT
That quote is taken from his 10 pledges, he's pretty much broken all of them already. "He's also a liar, but he does it with a nice haircut and smart suit on" isn't going to wash with a lot of the electorate whether you keep telling them it should or not. I have absolutely no evidence to suggest his stance on nationalising the rail industry would be any different........ Well, keep doing what you're doing then, helping out locally and helping the Tories to get re-elected nationally. Any comments on Starmer's change of mind since his election campaign or are you just going to keep parroting the same sentence over an over? I mean not sure how I'm getting the Tories re-elected nationally when there's not even been an election yet that's a reach and a half......... |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 1, 2022 12:49:35 GMT
Well, keep doing what you're doing then, helping out locally and helping the Tories to get re-elected nationally. Any comments on Starmer's change of mind since his election campaign or are you just going to keep parroting the same sentence over an over? I mean not sure how I'm getting the Tories re-elected nationally when there's not even been an election yet that's a reach and a half......... I don't know, maybe you're right, maybe his Labour Party will turn out to be a carbon copy of the current Conservative government. That would be a big disappointment. On the other hand, given the performance and ability of the Conservatives over the last twelve years, I'm prepared to see if the only alternative to the current government can make life better for ordinary people in ways that the Conservatives so obviously will never do. And to do so, they need to be electable to right-wing England first. Your campaign against Starmer and the direction he's taking his party, because it's not the Labour Party you want to see, is only going to help elect another Conservative government. I'm not sure why you'd prefer that? It's basically People's Front of Judea stuff... |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 1, 2022 12:58:31 GMT
Any comments on Starmer's change of mind since his election campaign or are you just going to keep parroting the same sentence over an over? I mean not sure how I'm getting the Tories re-elected nationally when there's not even been an election yet that's a reach and a half......... I don't know, maybe you're right, maybe his Labour Party will turn out to be a carbon copy of the current Conservative government. That would be a big disappointment. On the other hand, given the performance and ability of the Conservatives over the last twelve years, I'm prepared to see if the only alternative to the current government can make life better for ordinary people in ways that the Conservatives so obviously will never do. And to do so, they need to be electable to right-wing England first. Your campaign against Starmer and the direction he's taking his party, because it's not the Labour Party you want to see, is only going to help elect another Conservative government. I'm not sure why you'd prefer that? It's basically People's Front of Judea stuff... My campaign? I'm literally commenting as I see on a message board........... |
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Post by brotherleelove on Apr 1, 2022 13:04:36 GMT
Starmer: "Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system." Let's see whether that makes it into his manifesto, but there it is. As I've said many times, they're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but good luck with finding more of a commitment to public ownership from any other party capable of forming a government. That's the point. That quote is taken from his 10 pledges, he's pretty much broken all of them already. "He's also a liar, but he does it with a nice haircut and smart suit on" isn't going to wash with a lot of the electorate whether you keep telling them it should or not. I have absolutely no evidence to suggest his stance on nationalising the rail industry would be any different........ Wonder where millionaire Starmer stashes his cash ? Tell us do. |
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