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Post by ersaurebot 1, 000, 000 views on Sept 24, 2021 7:57:44 GMT
Can we change the title of this thread now to
‘Derby really are in the shit’
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Post by sportsman on Sept 24, 2021 7:59:41 GMT
I hope Middlesborough never find themselves down there - they are really turning the screw. I can't see what they are hoping to achieve at the moment apart from putting a fellow member of the league out of business all because Derby beat them to the playoffs a few seasons back when Middlesborough thought they were breaking FFP. If you really want to take a club to court for cheating their way out of the Championship go after a team now in the Premier like Leicester, Leeds, Wolves or Villa. Or even I'm pretty sure you'd find Bournemouth, Watford or Brighton weren't playing fair either. (Allegedly). I can also remember Vale fans fuming about the money Brentford were spending when they were similar clubs in the same division. The same as Bury but unfortunately they were the unlucky ones. I think you might be a bit pissed off if you were Steve Gibson, who always seems like he plays by the rules, getting turned over by a team you perceive to be cheating with a ‘Flash Harry’ chairman and stopped from reaching the land of plenty. It potentially cost Middlesbrough hundreds of millions. Just off at a tangent anyone know what St Peters views on the Derby situation are? Has he expressed them publicly? Yeh, don't know if he has. I know they're definately against how the FFP is at the moment as Scholes has said many a time, the Coates family want to invest but can't. That for me is bonkers that they can't, and in any other business surely you can do what you want with your money. Just wish someone would challenge the stupid ruling.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Sept 24, 2021 8:07:00 GMT
I think you might be a bit pissed off if you were Steve Gibson, who always seems like he plays by the rules, getting turned over by a team you perceive to be cheating with a ‘Flash Harry’ chairman and stopped from reaching the land of plenty. It potentially cost Middlesbrough hundreds of millions. Just off at a tangent anyone know what St Peters views on the Derby situation are? Has he expressed them publicly? Yeh, don't know if he has. I know they're definately against how the FFP is at the moment as Scholes has said many a time, the Coates family want to invest but can't. That for me is bonkers that they can't, and in any other business surely you can do what you want with your money. Just wish someone would challenge the stupid ruling. Let’s wait til Derby are relegated first 😉
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 24, 2021 8:17:54 GMT
I think you might be a bit pissed off if you were Steve Gibson, who always seems like he plays by the rules, getting turned over by a team you perceive to be cheating with a ‘Flash Harry’ chairman and stopped from reaching the land of plenty. It potentially cost Middlesbrough hundreds of millions. Just off at a tangent anyone know what St Peters views on the Derby situation are? Has he expressed them publicly? Yeh, don't know if he has. I know they're definately against how the FFP is at the moment as Scholes has said many a time, the Coates family want to invest but can't. That for me is bonkers that they can't, and in any other business surely you can do what you want with your money. Just wish someone would challenge the stupid ruling. As I've said before I know someone who was involved with Derby a few years back when they were having their original spat with Derby. He hates Stoke like I hate Derby but he said at the time that Stoke and the Coates family were the only ones who'd come out publicly on Derby's side because they thought FFP rules were unfair and owners should be able to invest. I don't think from what Scholes has said that their opinion on FFP has changed. Whether they approve of Derby's way of circumventing it is right I doubt. As I've said before the same bloke told me Stoke could be more creative with their accounting - perhaps a precursor to all that's come out recently?
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 24, 2021 8:27:36 GMT
It wasn’t that long ago Leicester we’re in the old third division in administration Leaving loads of local people out of pocket Got a new stadium for free too it was their administration that resulted in the points penalties being introduced.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 24, 2021 8:32:32 GMT
Swansea,Hull, Sheffield United (if you go back enough), Portsmouth, Huddersfield, Cardiff, all had a go at Div 4/League 2 As well as Wolves, Bolton and Burnley I can see Derby down there in a couple of years. Its pretty likely, any new owner if they get one is probably not going to pay the £60m creditors off in one go so they get further penalties next season if thats the case, 15 points I have seen mentioned throw in a transfer embargo and they are only heading in one direction.
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Post by sneydgreenstokie1 on Sept 24, 2021 8:33:24 GMT
It wasn’t that long ago Leicester we’re in the old third division in administration Leaving loads of local people out of pocket Got a new stadium for free too it was their administration that resulted in the points penalties being introduced. This is the reason I often struggle with the whole Leicester fairytale story, due to what it was built upon
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Sept 24, 2021 8:39:03 GMT
I can see Derby down there in a couple of years. Its pretty likely, any new owner if they get one is probably not going to pay the £60m creditors off in one go so they get further penalties next season if thats the case, 15 points I have seen mentioned throw in a transfer embargo and they are only heading in one direction. Shirley the Administrators would have to insist on it being paid off up front then in that case. Far less easy to achieve I grant you. Otherwise it's just sentencing them to a slow death by a thousand cuts.
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Post by Veritas on Sept 24, 2021 9:01:13 GMT
Its pretty likely, any new owner if they get one is probably not going to pay the £60m creditors off in one go so they get further penalties next season if thats the case, 15 points I have seen mentioned throw in a transfer embargo and they are only heading in one direction. Shirley the Administrators would have to insist on it being paid off up front then in that case. Far less easy to achieve I grant you. Otherwise it's just sentencing them to a slow death by a thousand cuts. The whole point of administration is to free the company from the weight of debt, usually by getting the creditors to accept a % of the debt rather than nothing if the company goes completely bust. The administrator can then also restructure the club, i.e. lay off staff, making it more attractive to new owners. The fly in the ointment will be the financial impact of almost certain relegation as a result of the points deduction. I wouldn't completely rule out Derby being declared bankrupt and presumably then following Bury out of the EFL, or is that sanction reserved for "little" clubs.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 24, 2021 9:05:36 GMT
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Sept 24, 2021 9:15:33 GMT
Shirley the Administrators would have to insist on it being paid off up front then in that case. Far less easy to achieve I grant you. Otherwise it's just sentencing them to a slow death by a thousand cuts. The whole point of administration is to free the company from the weight of debt, usually by getting the creditors to accept a % of the debt rather than nothing if the company goes completely bust. The administrator can then also restructure the club, i.e. lay off staff, making it more attractive to new owners. The fly in the ointment will be the financial impact of almost certain relegation as a result of the points deduction. I wouldn't completely rule out Derby being declared bankrupt and presumably then following Bury out of the EFL, or is that sanction reserved for "little" clubs. The problem Derby have got, if I understand it right, is that at least 30 mil of their debt is to HMRC who have recently been included in the ‘preferred creditor’ category and so can demand a much higher repayment percentage than the derisory amount normally offered to ordinary smaller creditors like 1-10p in the £. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. As you say it’s ‘alright’ to force a little club out of business but Derby would be by far the biggest scalp/victim (however you view it).
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Post by lordb on Sept 24, 2021 9:20:50 GMT
Got a new stadium for free too it was their administration that resulted in the points penalties being introduced. This is the reason I often struggle with the whole Leicester fairytale story, due to what it was built upon Didn't know Leicester got their stadium for free, how did that come about?
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Post by dexter97 on Sept 24, 2021 9:47:49 GMT
This is the reason I often struggle with the whole Leicester fairytale story, due to what it was built upon Didn't know Leicester got their stadium for free, how did that come about? In 2002, they moved into a new stadium that they couldn't afford. Also, following relegation from the PL, they strolled to the Championship title with a team they couldn't afford. They went into admin with debts of £30M, but got back into the PL.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 24, 2021 9:51:17 GMT
Its pretty likely, any new owner if they get one is probably not going to pay the £60m creditors off in one go so they get further penalties next season if thats the case, 15 points I have seen mentioned throw in a transfer embargo and they are only heading in one direction. Shirley the Administrators would have to insist on it being paid off up front then in that case. Far less easy to achieve I grant you. Otherwise it's just sentencing them to a slow death by a thousand cuts. I think administrators role is to get the best new owners for the club which should also be the best for the creditors, who otherwise could face a choice of 0 or 25p in the pound, Revenue would obviously prefer the £30m back in one go but after that will probably accept a repayment plan provided current tax is paid on time. From what the administrator just said on talksport HMRC were preparing for a winding up order hence the rush to admin, he seemed confident a buyer would be found talking of 7 interested parties now.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 24, 2021 9:55:16 GMT
Didn't know Leicester got their stadium for free, how did that come about? In 2002, they moved into a new stadium that they couldn't afford. Also, following relegation from the PL, they strolled to the Championship title with a team they couldn't afford. They went into admin with debts of £30M, but got back into the PL. Pretty much although having read up it seems only the last instalment of £5.5m of the £27.5m was not paid so not a completely free stadium but walking away paying pennies on the pound for the rest of the £30m.
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Post by 3putts on Sept 24, 2021 10:11:14 GMT
the odious little fat granny shagger clearly wants a way out despite going public and stating he will stick with derby despite the points deduction. he then goes public with a rant against the chairman. tosser
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Post by dexter97 on Sept 24, 2021 10:20:52 GMT
In 2002, they moved into a new stadium that they couldn't afford. Also, following relegation from the PL, they strolled to the Championship title with a team they couldn't afford. They went into admin with debts of £30M, but got back into the PL. Pretty much although having read up it seems only the last instalment of £5.5m of the £27.5m was not paid so not a completely free stadium but walking away paying pennies on the pound for the rest of the £30m. Yes, the 'free stadium' comment employed a little hyperbole. They were amongst those trailblazers in football who were using administration as a way to wipe the slate clean. Personally, I don't think the 10 or 12 points deducted is sufficient penalty, and even if that sanction had been around in 2002/03, I think they'd have still gone up anyway. I'd go for automatic relegation - double relegation if you finish in the bottom three.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2021 10:22:51 GMT
the odious little fat granny shagger clearly wants a way out despite going public and stating he will stick with derby despite the points deduction. he then goes public with a rant against the chairman. tosser !? As well he fucking should, Mel Morris is a clown and in this scenario you'd be seething if you were Rooney. Zero clue why you're attacking Rooney over Mel I won't lie.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 24, 2021 10:45:18 GMT
Pretty much although having read up it seems only the last instalment of £5.5m of the £27.5m was not paid so not a completely free stadium but walking away paying pennies on the pound for the rest of the £30m. Yes, the 'free stadium' comment employed a little hyperbole. They were amongst those trailblazers in football who were using administration as a way to wipe the slate clean. Personally, I don't think the 10 or 12 points deducted is sufficient penalty, and even if that sanction had been around in 2002/03, I think they'd have still gone up anyway. I'd go for automatic relegation - double relegation if you finish in the bottom three. I'd agree although the 12 points usually results in relegation, I guess there would have to be some sort of scale for example the way Leicester were run to get into £30m debt fully deserves a penalty but say if something like the helicopter crash that killed their billionaire owner and his son / family had just decided to pull out leaving them in trouble that should probably get less of a penalty, none of this applies to Derby of course who have run up a £30 hmrc debt for paye, NI and vat presumably.
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Sept 24, 2021 10:46:48 GMT
Spoilers ahead: There always seems to be plenty of potential buyers for clubs in these circumstances, initially, then one by one they all fade away.
A couple will ask to see the books and then discontinue their interest, one will be clinically insane and didn't understand the question, one will find a better way of offsetting his losses for tax reasons elsewhere, one will suddenly belatedly realise the club don't own the ground and pull out, a mystery Sheikh / far-eastern businessman nobody has ever heard of (and who might not actually exist) will never materialise, and an American consortium headed by a former board member will collapse when they realise you can't call clubs 'franchises' over here. Then you're left with just one candidate, who despite being very rich is woefully unsuited to the task of running a football club, but yet will nonetheless somehow pass the Fit & Proper Persons test and take control of the club.
Fast forward five years and repeat the whole process, all over again.
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Post by flea79 on Sept 24, 2021 10:51:24 GMT
Spoilers ahead: There always seems to be plenty of potential buyers for clubs in these circumstances, initially, then one by one they all fade away. A couple will ask to see the books and then discontinue their interest, one will be clinically insane and didn't understand the question, one will find a better way of offsetting his losses for tax reasons elsewhere, one will suddenly belatedly realise the club don't own the ground and pull out, a mystery Sheikh / far-eastern businessman nobody has ever heard of (and who might not actually exist) will never materialise, and an American consortium headed by a former board member will collapse when they realise you can't call clubs 'franchises' over here. Then you're left with just one candidate, who despite being very rich is woefully unsuited to the task of running a football club, but yet will nonetheless somehow pass the Fit & Proper Persons test and take control of the club. Fast forward five years and repeat the whole process, all over again. step forwards Norman Smurthwaite!
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Sept 24, 2021 10:52:56 GMT
Shirley the Administrators would have to insist on it being paid off up front then in that case. Far less easy to achieve I grant you. Otherwise it's just sentencing them to a slow death by a thousand cuts. I think administrators role is to get the best new owners for the club which should also be the best for the creditors, who otherwise could face a choice of 0 or 25p in the pound, Revenue would obviously prefer the £30m back in one go but after that will probably accept a repayment plan provided current tax is paid on time. From what the administrator just said on talksport HMRC were preparing for a winding up order hence the rush to admin, he seemed confident a buyer would be found talking of 7 interested parties now. Ok mate I'll bow to your knowledge. As I explained earlier I know next to fuck all about administration. I only know what I've read in't papers and on here so as you can see I'm woefully underinformed
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Sept 24, 2021 10:57:44 GMT
the odious little fat granny shagger clearly wants a way out despite going public and stating he will stick with derby despite the points deduction. he then goes public with a rant against the chairman. tosser !? As well he fucking should, Mel Morris is a clown and in this scenario you'd be seething if you were Rooney. Zero clue why you're attacking Rooney over Mel I won't lie. I would agree mate. As much as I dislike the 'odious, little, fat, granny shagger' I think he's behaved quite well in the circumstances and done a half decent job with both hands tied behind his back. Mel Morris is 100% to blame for the shit Derby are in. No-one else.
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Post by tpholloway1 on Sept 24, 2021 12:59:25 GMT
Spoilers ahead: There always seems to be plenty of potential buyers for clubs in these circumstances, initially, then one by one they all fade away. A couple will ask to see the books and then discontinue their interest, one will be clinically insane and didn't understand the question, one will find a better way of offsetting his losses for tax reasons elsewhere, one will suddenly belatedly realise the club don't own the ground and pull out, a mystery Sheikh / far-eastern businessman nobody has ever heard of (and who might not actually exist) will never materialise, and an American consortium headed by a former board member will collapse when they realise you can't call clubs 'franchises' over here. Then you're left with just one candidate, who despite being very rich is woefully unsuited to the task of running a football club, but yet will nonetheless somehow pass the Fit & Proper Persons test and take control of the club. Fast forward five years and repeat the whole process, all over again. I wonder what the EFL would do if the only prospective buyer was the Saudi consortium who were turned down by the Premier League at Newcastle. I think the Geordies would be a tad upset. On a more serious point - what if the only prospective buyer failed the Fit and Proper Person test. Would the EFL let Derby go to the wall?
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Post by spiderpuss on Sept 24, 2021 13:24:02 GMT
!? As well he fucking should, Mel Morris is a clown and in this scenario you'd be seething if you were Rooney. Zero clue why you're attacking Rooney over Mel I won't lie. I would agree mate. As much as I dislike the 'odious, little, fat, granny shagger' I think he's behaved quite well in the circumstances and done a half decent job with both hands tied behind his back. Mel Morris is 100% to blame for the shit Derby are in. No-one else. Agree and at the end of the day he's just another person trying to do a good job. Feel sorry for him personally, the temptation to just walk away and head to beach with the wealth he has must be terrific.
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Post by Northy on Sept 24, 2021 13:38:01 GMT
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Sept 24, 2021 13:43:20 GMT
Can't get that link to open mate.
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Post by dirtclod on Sept 24, 2021 14:20:28 GMT
Spoilers ahead: There always seems to be plenty of potential buyers for clubs in these circumstances, initially, then one by one they all fade away. A couple will ask to see the books and then discontinue their interest, one will be clinically insane and didn't understand the question, one will find a better way of offsetting his losses for tax reasons elsewhere, one will suddenly belatedly realise the club don't own the ground and pull out, a mystery Sheikh / far-eastern businessman nobody has ever heard of (and who might not actually exist) will never materialise, and an American consortium headed by a former board member will collapse when they realise you can't call clubs 'franchises' over here. Then you're left with just one candidate, who despite being very rich is woefully unsuited to the task of running a football club, but yet will nonetheless somehow pass the Fit & Proper Persons test and take control of the club. Fast forward five years and repeat the whole process, all over again. Spot on.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 25, 2021 22:12:07 GMT
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Post by theonlooker on Sept 26, 2021 6:25:42 GMT
I think you might be a bit pissed off if you were Steve Gibson, who always seems like he plays by the rules, getting turned over by a team you perceive to be cheating with a ‘Flash Harry’ chairman and stopped from reaching the land of plenty. It potentially cost Middlesbrough hundreds of millions. Just off at a tangent anyone know what St Peters views on the Derby situation are? Has he expressed them publicly? Yeh, don't know if he has. I know they're definately against how the FFP is at the moment as Scholes has said many a time, the Coates family want to invest but can't. That for me is bonkers that they can't, and in any other business surely you can do what you want with your money. Just wish someone would challenge the stupid ruling. They can't challenge it as it is voted on by the league members, which is why the argument is always revolving around the rules being a faux race to the bottom, suiting those in the league that don't have money, rather than those that do. Until the members vote to change it won't.
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