|
Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 6, 2023 15:49:32 GMT
Fuck that mate. Let the beer slobs and dust heads do their thing, I'd rather stay in peak physical and mental condition as an Englishman with a sense of duty and right and wrong ☺ Agreed. There must be an element of peace however to being off your nut all day oblivious to the country falling apart. But lets hope Kier and Angela can put us back to the good ole days 😆 🤣 Ye I could imagine there probably is, and ignorance is bliss as they say, that's why sometimes I think it would be easier to be like the average dopey dumb dumb that you see out in public 😂 I think there is more to life than walking round like a gormless blissfull gonk all day through. Regarding Scottish independence. Even with an anti English smear and propaganda campaign the SNP still couldn't persuade the Scottish people to break up our glorious union. Most Scots, despite what you see in the MSM are proud to be British as well as Scottish and I can't see that changing any time soon.
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 7, 2023 8:27:27 GMT
The poster said National pride. Scotland is a nation - the SNP seek to represent the people of the Scotland. To my knowledge they have never defined themselves in terms of racial identity - which is what you appear to be suggesting. By definition that would make them a racist party. Is that what you think they should be? Ethnic pride, ie Scottish people who are descended from Picts, Celts, Angles, Normans, Vikings, Dalraidans and other kindred peoples. I fully support that. Ethnic pride is one thing but a political party organised on ethnic lines would be by definition racist. The SNP is a nationalist party, not a racist party. The Scottish are indeed defined as an ethnic group but the Scots are descended from two Celtic tribes - the Gaels and the Picts. They are not descended from the Angles, Norman's or the Vikings - they are different ethnic groups. You really are showing your true colours. Or given its exclusively white I suppose that should be colour.
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Oct 7, 2023 8:36:18 GMT
Ethnic pride, ie Scottish people who are descended from Picts, Celts, Angles, Normans, Vikings, Dalraidans and other kindred peoples. I fully support that. Ethnic pride is one thing but a political party organised on ethnic lines would be by definition racist. The SNP is a nationalist party, not a racist party. The Scottish are indeed defined as an ethnic group but the Scots are descended from two Celtic tribes - the Gaels and the Picts. They are not descended from the Angles, Norman's or the Vikings - they are different ethnic groups. You really are showing your true colours. Or given its exclusively white I suppose that should be colour. Think you will find, most Scots will have Saxon, Viking, Angle and Norman ancestors as most English will have Celtic ancestors, we have been living together a long time, migration within the islands and so on
|
|
|
Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 7, 2023 8:54:33 GMT
Ethnic pride, ie Scottish people who are descended from Picts, Celts, Angles, Normans, Vikings, Dalraidans and other kindred peoples. I fully support that. Ethnic pride is one thing but a political party organised on ethnic lines would be by definition racist. The SNP is a nationalist party, not a racist party. The Scottish are indeed defined as an ethnic group but the Scots are descended from two Celtic tribes - the Gaels and the Picts. They are not descended from the Angles, Norman's or the Vikings - they are different ethnic groups. You really are showing your true colours. Or given its exclusively white I suppose that should be colour. Do you want a genuinely reply or are you just trolling and thinking you know best?
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 7, 2023 8:58:44 GMT
Ethnic pride is one thing but a political party organised on ethnic lines would be by definition racist. The SNP is a nationalist party, not a racist party. The Scottish are indeed defined as an ethnic group but the Scots are descended from two Celtic tribes - the Gaels and the Picts. They are not descended from the Angles, Norman's or the Vikings - they are different ethnic groups. You really are showing your true colours. Or given its exclusively white I suppose that should be colour. Think you will find, most Scots will have Saxon, Viking, Angle and Norman ancestors as most English will have Celtic ancestors, we have been living together a long time, migration within the islands and so on The people living in Scotland also have Indian, African, Chinese, you name it ancestry - are you saying to be Scottish, in the nationalist sense, you have to be white? I think you are confusing nationality with ethnicity. The word "Scottish" has two meanings - nation and ethnicity. In terms of ethnicity the "Scottish" people emerged in the middle ages from the Gaels and the Picts - these are the people who founded the Scottish nation. People living in Scotland with Saxon, Viking and Angle ancestry have no more right to call themselves ethnic Scottish than anyone from an Indian, African, Chinese, etc ancestry but they all have the same right to call themselves Scottish in the nationalist sense. You are right in the sense that Scotland, like the rest of the UK, is a mongrel nation and untangling ethnicity and nationality becomes arbitrary - where and when do you draw the line? Go back far enough and we are all migrants - ultimately we are all African.
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 7, 2023 9:00:22 GMT
Ethnic pride is one thing but a political party organised on ethnic lines would be by definition racist. The SNP is a nationalist party, not a racist party. The Scottish are indeed defined as an ethnic group but the Scots are descended from two Celtic tribes - the Gaels and the Picts. They are not descended from the Angles, Norman's or the Vikings - they are different ethnic groups. You really are showing your true colours. Or given its exclusively white I suppose that should be colour. Do you want a genuinely reply or are you just trolling and thinking you know best? No I want a genuine reply. Challenging what someone has posted isn't trolling - are you avoiding being challenged on your views?
|
|
|
Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 7, 2023 9:34:13 GMT
Do you want a genuinely reply or are you just trolling and thinking you know best? No I want a genuine reply. Challenging what someone has posted isn't trolling - are you avoiding being challenged on your views? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt then mate because it seems I've wrongly assumed a couple of other posters are just lefty trolls. Maybe I'd wrongly assumed the same about you. Scotland - Before the actual Scotti people (who gave Scotland its name) arrived in Dal Riada (Argyle) , Scotland was inhabited by Picts (a tribal confederation of celtic tribes) and other similar peoples including native Britons and such like. The Angles also raided and settled as far up as Fife. Norman knights and soldiers were also given land in Scotland, some well known Highland clans have Norman origins. Vikings raided and settled in Scotland as they did in England. These mingling of kindred peoples come to be known as 'the Scots'. The BNP were racist. The SNP aren't. I get the difference. I understand that civic nationalism isn't the same as racial nationalism. I understand that one can be positive and the other almost always leads to the exact opposite. I don't support the latter but I do support the former. That being said, I don't think it's right to lie in order to come across as politically correct. To be Scottish you have to have ancestry from the prementioned peoples. I couldn't go to Australia and claim to be an aborigine because I aren't one. I could in time claim to be Australian and gain Australian citizenship though. Someone with no Scottish roots could certainly be British and have British citizenship but they'll never be Scottish. That doesn't mean that I don't think they should be treated as 100% equals and have all the same rights and privileges as Scots, but the fact remains they aren't and can't ever be Scottish. The SNP seem to ignore ethic Scots and Scottish culture and customs and when they DO acknowledge it it's done in a way to undermine the English. If they cared about Scottish people, immigration would be on their list of priorities and not just anti English rhetoric.
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 7, 2023 10:12:07 GMT
No I want a genuine reply. Challenging what someone has posted isn't trolling - are you avoiding being challenged on your views? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt then mate because it seems I've wrongly assumed a couple of other posters are just lefty trolls. Maybe I'd wrongly assumed the same about you. Scotland - Before the actual Scotti people (who gave Scotland its name) arrived in Dal Riada (Argyle) , Scotland was inhabited by Picts (a tribal confederation of celtic tribes) and other similar peoples including native Britons and such like. The Angles also raided and settled as far up as Fife. Norman knights and soldiers were also given land in Scotland, some well known Highland clans have Norman origins. Vikings raided and settled in Scotland as they did in England. These mingling of kindred peoples come to be known as 'the Scots'. The BNP were racist. The SNP aren't. I get the difference. I understand that civic nationalism isn't the same as racial nationalism. I understand that one can be positive and the other almost always leads to the exact opposite. I don't support the latter but I do support the former. That being said, I don't think it's right to lie in order to come across as politically correct. To be Scottish you have to have ancestry from the prementioned peoples. I couldn't go to Australia and claim to be an aborigine because I aren't one. I could in time claim to be Australian and gain Australian citizenship though. Someone with no Scottish roots could certainly be British and have British citizenship but they'll never be Scottish. That doesn't mean that I don't think they should be treated as 100% equals and have all the same rights and privileges as Scots, but the fact remains they aren't and can't ever be Scottish. The SNP seem to ignore ethic Scots and Scottish culture and customs and when they DO acknowledge it it's done in a way to undermine the English. If they cared about Scottish people, immigration would be on their list of priorities and not just anti English rhetoric. "Scottish" means two things - it is an ethnicity and I agree you have to have a particular ancestors to claim to be Scottish in that sense. However it is also a nationality and people from any ethnic group can claim to be Scottish in that sense. We can quibble about the details - a lot of Scottish people would not see the Normans as a kindred people (the Normans were of Viking ancestors and have a history of raping and pillaging in the area) or as native Scots (they'd see it as a land grap by some French invaders, as did the then native English) - but I roughly agree with your definition of ethnic Scottish. You cannot tell the SNP or the Scottish people that immigration should be the top of their priorities - it's up to them to decide. Also the SNP do not claim to exclusively represent the ethnic Scots - they represent the people of Scotland and it would be wrong of them to favour a particular ethnic group - if they did that they would become the Scottish equivalent of the BNP. Just to be clear - I suspect we hold polar opposite political views but I have no intention of deplatforming you or denying you a voice. However I will continue to challenge you if I believe what you said is factually incorrect or objectionable - and I expect you to do the same.
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Oct 7, 2023 12:03:07 GMT
Think you will find, most Scots will have Saxon, Viking, Angle and Norman ancestors as most English will have Celtic ancestors, we have been living together a long time, migration within the islands and so on The people living in Scotland also have Indian, African, Chinese, you name it ancestry - are you saying to be Scottish, in the nationalist sense, you have to be white? I think you are confusing nationality with ethnicity. The word "Scottish" has two meanings - nation and ethnicity. In terms of ethnicity the "Scottish" people emerged in the middle ages from the Gaels and the Picts - these are the people who founded the Scottish nation. People living in Scotland with Saxon, Viking and Angle ancestry have no more right to call themselves ethnic Scottish than anyone from an Indian, African, Chinese, etc ancestry but they all have the same right to call themselves Scottish in the nationalist sense. You are right in the sense that Scotland, like the rest of the UK, is a mongrel nation and untangling ethnicity and nationality becomes arbitrary - where and when do you draw the line? Go back far enough and we are all migrants - ultimately we are all African. Off course I'm not saying that don't be stupid
|
|
|
Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 7, 2023 13:32:54 GMT
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt then mate because it seems I've wrongly assumed a couple of other posters are just lefty trolls. Maybe I'd wrongly assumed the same about you. Scotland - Before the actual Scotti people (who gave Scotland its name) arrived in Dal Riada (Argyle) , Scotland was inhabited by Picts (a tribal confederation of celtic tribes) and other similar peoples including native Britons and such like. The Angles also raided and settled as far up as Fife. Norman knights and soldiers were also given land in Scotland, some well known Highland clans have Norman origins. Vikings raided and settled in Scotland as they did in England. These mingling of kindred peoples come to be known as 'the Scots'. The BNP were racist. The SNP aren't. I get the difference. I understand that civic nationalism isn't the same as racial nationalism. I understand that one can be positive and the other almost always leads to the exact opposite. I don't support the latter but I do support the former. That being said, I don't think it's right to lie in order to come across as politically correct. To be Scottish you have to have ancestry from the prementioned peoples. I couldn't go to Australia and claim to be an aborigine because I aren't one. I could in time claim to be Australian and gain Australian citizenship though. Someone with no Scottish roots could certainly be British and have British citizenship but they'll never be Scottish. That doesn't mean that I don't think they should be treated as 100% equals and have all the same rights and privileges as Scots, but the fact remains they aren't and can't ever be Scottish. The SNP seem to ignore ethic Scots and Scottish culture and customs and when they DO acknowledge it it's done in a way to undermine the English. If they cared about Scottish people, immigration would be on their list of priorities and not just anti English rhetoric. "Scottish" means two things - it is an ethnicity and I agree you have to have a particular ancestors to claim to be Scottish in that sense. However it is also a nationality and people from any ethnic group can claim to be Scottish in that sense. We can quibble about the details - a lot of Scottish people would not see the Normans as a kindred people (the Normans were of Viking ancestors and have a history of raping and pillaging in the area) or as native Scots (they'd see it as a land grap by some French invaders, as did the then native English) - but I roughly agree with your definition of ethnic Scottish. You cannot tell the SNP or the Scottish people that immigration should be the top of their priorities - it's up to them to decide. Also the SNP do not claim to exclusively represent the ethnic Scots - they represent the people of Scotland and it would be wrong of them to favour a particular ethnic group - if they did that they would become the Scottish equivalent of the BNP. Just to be clear - I suspect we hold polar opposite political views but I have no intention of deplatforming you or denying you a voice. However I will continue to challenge you if I believe what you said is factually incorrect or objectionable - and I expect you to do the same. Can't argue with much of that. Much of what's spoken about in general is down to interpretations and definitions. For me I can't accept that none Scottish people can be Scottish by nationality, even though the law would disgaree with me , not because I think they are inferior or worth less, I just base it on my sense of history and morality.
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 7, 2023 17:00:12 GMT
"Scottish" means two things - it is an ethnicity and I agree you have to have a particular ancestors to claim to be Scottish in that sense. However it is also a nationality and people from any ethnic group can claim to be Scottish in that sense. We can quibble about the details - a lot of Scottish people would not see the Normans as a kindred people (the Normans were of Viking ancestors and have a history of raping and pillaging in the area) or as native Scots (they'd see it as a land grap by some French invaders, as did the then native English) - but I roughly agree with your definition of ethnic Scottish. You cannot tell the SNP or the Scottish people that immigration should be the top of their priorities - it's up to them to decide. Also the SNP do not claim to exclusively represent the ethnic Scots - they represent the people of Scotland and it would be wrong of them to favour a particular ethnic group - if they did that they would become the Scottish equivalent of the BNP. Just to be clear - I suspect we hold polar opposite political views but I have no intention of deplatforming you or denying you a voice. However I will continue to challenge you if I believe what you said is factually incorrect or objectionable - and I expect you to do the same. Can't argue with much of that. Much of what's spoken about in general is down to interpretations and definitions. For me I can't accept that none Scottish people can be Scottish by nationality, even though the law would disgaree with me , not because I think they are inferior or worth less, I just base it on my sense of history and morality. It isn't a matter of what you or I want or believe. It is a fact that the word "Scottish" means both an ethnic group and a nationality and I'm terms of nationality people who are not ethnically Scottish can legitimately claim their nationality is Scottish. You simply do not have the right to change that definition and you can't tell people who claim their nationality is Scottish that they can't claim they are. Are you also saying that to be English or British you also have to belong to a particular ethnic group? If so you are on very dodgy ground - you are definitely into territory that could legitimately be called racist.
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 7, 2023 17:01:33 GMT
The people living in Scotland also have Indian, African, Chinese, you name it ancestry - are you saying to be Scottish, in the nationalist sense, you have to be white? I think you are confusing nationality with ethnicity. The word "Scottish" has two meanings - nation and ethnicity. In terms of ethnicity the "Scottish" people emerged in the middle ages from the Gaels and the Picts - these are the people who founded the Scottish nation. People living in Scotland with Saxon, Viking and Angle ancestry have no more right to call themselves ethnic Scottish than anyone from an Indian, African, Chinese, etc ancestry but they all have the same right to call themselves Scottish in the nationalist sense. You are right in the sense that Scotland, like the rest of the UK, is a mongrel nation and untangling ethnicity and nationality becomes arbitrary - where and when do you draw the line? Go back far enough and we are all migrants - ultimately we are all African. Off course I'm not saying that don't be stupid Well excuse my stupidity - what exactly are you saying?
|
|
|
Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 7, 2023 21:05:07 GMT
Can't argue with much of that. Much of what's spoken about in general is down to interpretations and definitions. For me I can't accept that none Scottish people can be Scottish by nationality, even though the law would disgaree with me , not because I think they are inferior or worth less, I just base it on my sense of history and morality. It isn't a matter of what you or I want or believe. It is a fact that the word "Scottish" means both an ethnic group and a nationality and I'm terms of nationality people who are not ethnically Scottish can legitimately claim their nationality is Scottish. You simply do not have the right to change that definition and you can't tell people who claim their nationality is Scottish that they can't claim they are. Are you also saying that to be English or British you also have to belong to a particular ethnic group? If so you are on very dodgy ground - you are definitely into territory that could legitimately be called racist. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm fully aware of what legal definitions are, and I don't know for a fact but I could well imagine the dictionary would agree with you... but I don't. Laws are man made, dictionaries are written by man. I don't HAVE to accept the word of other men. I know what a man is and I know what a women is but I wouldn't be surprised if the Collins dictionary says the complete opposite but it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm guided by my own sense of morality not other people's, certainly not people that I don't know or have never met. I don't think anyone's opinion is more important or relevant than mine, whether they write laws for a living or not. Yes I'd apply that to England as well, in fact I'd apply that to almost every other country on earth apart from maybe the Americas and maybe a handful of others......British is different. I'm British and proud of it but I know it's just my nationality and pretty much anyone can claim it, but my ethnicity is English and not just anyone can claim that. There are of course exceptions to every rule but in the main that's my answer. I don't think that's racist, I've not claimed any superiority over any other races and I also previously said that I wouldn't treat anyone any different and that I believe all people should be treated equally with no favouritism regardless of ethnicity. If certain other nationalities and ethnicities can have them standards and have special protected status's then so can mine.
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 7, 2023 23:59:34 GMT
It isn't a matter of what you or I want or believe. It is a fact that the word "Scottish" means both an ethnic group and a nationality and I'm terms of nationality people who are not ethnically Scottish can legitimately claim their nationality is Scottish. You simply do not have the right to change that definition and you can't tell people who claim their nationality is Scottish that they can't claim they are. Are you also saying that to be English or British you also have to belong to a particular ethnic group? If so you are on very dodgy ground - you are definitely into territory that could legitimately be called racist. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm fully aware of what legal definitions are, and I don't know for a fact but I could well imagine the dictionary would agree with you... but I don't. Laws are man made, dictionaries are written by man. I don't HAVE to accept the word of other men. I know what a man is and I know what a women is but I wouldn't be surprised if the Collins dictionary says the complete opposite but it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm guided by my own sense of morality not other people's, certainly not people that I don't know or have never met. I don't think anyone's opinion is more important or relevant than mine, whether they write laws for a living or not. Yes I'd apply that to England as well, in fact I'd apply that to almost every other country on earth apart from maybe the Americas and maybe a handful of others......British is different. I'm British and proud of it but I know it's just my nationality and pretty much anyone can claim it, but my ethnicity is English and not just anyone can claim that. There are of course exceptions to every rule but in the main that's my answer. I don't think that's racist, I've not claimed any superiority over any other races and I also previously said that I wouldn't treat anyone any different and that I believe all people should be treated equally with no favouritism regardless of ethnicity. If certain other nationalities and ethnicities can have them standards and have special protected status's then so can mine. So you seem to be saying Scottish and English are ethnicities but British is a nationality. Ok. But the majority of people don't so why should I or anyone else accept your definition? You also seem to be claiming that you have right to claim what words means. Ok. So that means anyone can claim what words mean. So when pretty much everyone else says Scottish and English are nationalities as well as ethnicities are you saying they can't do that because you disagree? You are free to believe what you want to believe but you can't tell anyone else they have to believe it as well. Words aren't laws. However they only have meaning if there is a shared understanding of what they actually mean - if you or anyone else arbitrarily decides they mean something else communication literally isn't possible. Dictionaries are there to help people communicate. You really don't have the right to make words mean what you want them to mean.
|
|
|
Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 8, 2023 1:01:36 GMT
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm fully aware of what legal definitions are, and I don't know for a fact but I could well imagine the dictionary would agree with you... but I don't. Laws are man made, dictionaries are written by man. I don't HAVE to accept the word of other men. I know what a man is and I know what a women is but I wouldn't be surprised if the Collins dictionary says the complete opposite but it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm guided by my own sense of morality not other people's, certainly not people that I don't know or have never met. I don't think anyone's opinion is more important or relevant than mine, whether they write laws for a living or not. Yes I'd apply that to England as well, in fact I'd apply that to almost every other country on earth apart from maybe the Americas and maybe a handful of others......British is different. I'm British and proud of it but I know it's just my nationality and pretty much anyone can claim it, but my ethnicity is English and not just anyone can claim that. There are of course exceptions to every rule but in the main that's my answer. I don't think that's racist, I've not claimed any superiority over any other races and I also previously said that I wouldn't treat anyone any different and that I believe all people should be treated equally with no favouritism regardless of ethnicity. If certain other nationalities and ethnicities can have them standards and have special protected status's then so can mine. So you seem to be saying Scottish and English are ethnicities but British is a nationality. Ok. But the majority of people don't so why should I or anyone else accept your definition? You also seem to be claiming that you have right to claim what words means. Ok. So that means anyone can claim what words mean. So when pretty much everyone else says Scottish and English are nationalities as well as ethnicities are you saying they can't do that because you disagree? You are free to believe what you want to believe but you can't tell anyone else they have to believe it as well. Words aren't laws. However they only have meaning if there is a shared understanding of what they actually mean - if you or anyone else arbitrarily decides they mean something else communication literally isn't possible. Dictionaries are there to help people communicate. You really don't have the right to make words mean what you want them to mean. Again, either I'm not making myself clear enough or you aren't understanding so I'll try one more time. People don't have to do anything and neither do I. People don't have to agree with me but I don't have to agree with them either. I'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me but no one will force me to agree with them. We can all agree on what most words mean. Words like 'The / when / there / please / thank you' are words that can't mean anything other than what they are. Ethnicity and gender aren't just words they're concepts. As someone that has been through the education system and went on to complete a masters and has done alright for myself as a result I do not trust the modern education system due to the blatant left wing social agenda that is pushed on university campuses not only in the UK but throughout the western world. If academics or 'scholars' write or contribute to the writing of a dictionary, why am I compelled to accept their man made definition of words that are factually incorrect? I've acknowledged that legally (that's why I mentioned law) my definition is the wrong one. I've also acknowledged that according to standard dictionaries my definition is one that wouldn't be accepted but at what point have I said that any of that matters to ME? I'm not talking about you or anyone else, what you or others think or choose to believe is none of my business and it's also no one else's business what I choose to accept or believe based on what's moral and logical to ME. I have no proof of my claim because I haven't asked every man woman and dog in the land but I'm pretty confident that most people would agree with me on whether a none Scottish person can be classed as Scottish or not. You likewise have no proof of your claim that most people would disagree. If a black man from Ghana that's lived in Scotland since the age of 2 and likes knocking about in a tartan kilt and plays the bagpipes at weekends wants to call himself Scottish I have no problem with that, he can call himself Scottish all day and all night for all I care. I have no right to tell him he CAN'T call himself Scottish......but I wouldn't agree, and he would have no right to tell me that I HAVE to agree with him . I have no desire to tell other people what they can or can't do or what they can or can't identify as or what they can or can't call themselves but it doesn't mean that I have to play along. In terms of nationality if he was granted citizenship he'd be British. I'm sure you won't agree and that's fine I don't mind, it doesn't impact my life or what I think in the slightest and I respect your right to an opinion. Back to the point of the thread though, Sturgeon and Co have done more to damage the prospects of an independent Scotland than Westminster ever could.
|
|