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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 23, 2020 11:41:59 GMT
No one would be forced to watch live football, and live football is a great escape for many people. I'd have no problem if people who wanted to go to football and take the risk of infection could then be isolated from the rest of us for a fortnight, rather like travellers returning from abroad, but it can't/won't happen. This isn't about is deciding what risk we want to take for ourselves, it is about what risk we are prepared to inflict on those we come into contact with in the pursuit of our own pleasure. Hence the importance of masks, they are there to protect other people from us, not the other way around. Video footage I've seen of test events shows that people are congregating and ignoring social distancing rules, particularly when exiting. We have already seen local spikes linked to the recent Doncaster races and I'm struggling to come up with a reason that that the same wouldn't happen with football.
Noting your other point about lockdown has increased non-COVID related deaths, yes agreed they are happening, but statistically they are a much smaller group. The link I quoted puts numbers onto it if you're interested. I completely get your point about people who aren't careful being a risk to others. We're being sent too many mixed messages from the government though. It's no wonder people are confused, angry, not trusting the government, fed up etc. Not that I'd condone some behaviour I've seen. Meeting indoors is a higher risk than being outdoors in stadiums, yet we're allowed to meet indoors. There's no evidence the spike you mention was related to Doncaster races (e.g. www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/16/south-wales-covid-outbreak-blamed-on-trip-to-doncaster-races). I also saw a study a while ago where there was no link to the Liverpool (vs Atletico Madrid?) Champions League game and COVID spread in the UK. My point about non-COVID deaths is more long-term. I think there will be many more deaths months and years into the future thanks to the current uncertainty and restrictions. We both have a sensible outlook on COVID I think, just slightly opposing views on how it should be handled.
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 23, 2020 11:48:48 GMT
Have to agree with a lot of your points. I cannot understand why you are allowed to not wear a mask unchallenged. As a diabetic my husband has to carry a note from his doctor to get on an aeroplane with his injections. Surely you can do the same for people who really cannot wear a mask. And anyway if vulnerable people could be told to go nowhere for 12 weeks why should people who can't wear a mask be told not to go in shops. There are plenty of places which deliver. Then everybody knows where they stand.
Having been to a few non league matches recently I can see the worry with attending matches as fans just don't distance but seats should be easier to ensure that they do. I think the queuing, toilets and concourses at bigger grounds are a worry though.
As for pubs as I said before they need to open to survive but I think making it table service only would be enough without having a 10 o'clock restriction. I fail to see why waitresses and bar staff don't have to wear masks. Having somebody carrying my food to the table who is breathing over it puts me off going into these establishments. What happens if they cough, shout across to someone or just clear their throat? I'm not sure if the new rules covers this, I know it says masks must be mandatory for shop workers.
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Post by franklin on Sept 23, 2020 12:52:21 GMT
Have to agree with a lot of your points. I cannot understand why you are allowed to not wear a mask unchallenged. As a diabetic my husband has to carry a note from his doctor to get on an aeroplane with his injections. Surely you can do the same for people who really cannot wear a mask. And anyway if vulnerable people could be told to go nowhere for 12 weeks why should people who can't wear a mask be told not to go in shops. There are plenty of places which deliver. Then everybody knows where they stand. Having been to a few non league matches recently I can see the worry with attending matches as fans just don't distance but seats should be easier to ensure that they do. I think the queuing, toilets and concourses at bigger grounds are a worry though. As for pubs as I said before they need to open to survive but I think making it table service only would be enough without having a 10 o'clock restriction. I fail to see why waitresses and bar staff don't have to wear masks. Having somebody carrying my food to the table who is breathing over it puts me off going into these establishments. What happens if they cough, shout across to someone or just clear their throat? I'm not sure if the new rules covers this, I know it says masks must be mandatory for shop workers. Having just returned from Windermere I can assure you every pub and restaurant i went in (many) the staff wore masks both indoors and out. Sit at a table no mask get up wear it for the loo etc wash your hands sanitise sit back down. Everything was ordered to your table no wandering about perfectly reasonable. I know we won't have 20k crowds at stoke anytime soon but there should be provision for the 6-9k with ease.
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 23, 2020 13:04:10 GMT
Have to agree with a lot of your points. I cannot understand why you are allowed to not wear a mask unchallenged. As a diabetic my husband has to carry a note from his doctor to get on an aeroplane with his injections. Surely you can do the same for people who really cannot wear a mask. And anyway if vulnerable people could be told to go nowhere for 12 weeks why should people who can't wear a mask be told not to go in shops. There are plenty of places which deliver. Then everybody knows where they stand. Having been to a few non league matches recently I can see the worry with attending matches as fans just don't distance but seats should be easier to ensure that they do. I think the queuing, toilets and concourses at bigger grounds are a worry though. As for pubs as I said before they need to open to survive but I think making it table service only would be enough without having a 10 o'clock restriction. I fail to see why waitresses and bar staff don't have to wear masks. Having somebody carrying my food to the table who is breathing over it puts me off going into these establishments. What happens if they cough, shout across to someone or just clear their throat? I'm not sure if the new rules covers this, I know it says masks must be mandatory for shop workers. Having just returned from Windermere I can assure you every pub and restaurant i went in (many) the staff wore masks both indoors and out. Sit at a table no mask get up wear it for the loo etc wash your hands sanitise sit back down. Everything was ordered to your table no wandering about perfectly reasonable. I know we won't have 20k crowds at stoke anytime soon but there should be provision for the 6-9k with ease. Glad to hear that. I think I've been to two restaurants since they reopened and at neither of them were staff wearing masks.
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Post by questionable on Sept 23, 2020 13:08:50 GMT
Have to agree with a lot of your points. I cannot understand why you are allowed to not wear a mask unchallenged. As a diabetic my husband has to carry a note from his doctor to get on an aeroplane with his injections. Surely you can do the same for people who really cannot wear a mask. And anyway if vulnerable people could be told to go nowhere for 12 weeks why should people who can't wear a mask be told not to go in shops. There are plenty of places which deliver. Then everybody knows where they stand. Having been to a few non league matches recently I can see the worry with attending matches as fans just don't distance but seats should be easier to ensure that they do. I think the queuing, toilets and concourses at bigger grounds are a worry though. As for pubs as I said before they need to open to survive but I think making it table service only would be enough without having a 10 o'clock restriction. I fail to see why waitresses and bar staff don't have to wear masks. Having somebody carrying my food to the table who is breathing over it puts me off going into these establishments. What happens if they cough, shout across to someone or just clear their throat? I'm not sure if the new rules covers this, I know it says masks must be mandatory for shop workers. Having just returned from Windermere I can assure you every pub and restaurant i went in (many) the staff wore masks both indoors and out. Sit at a table no mask get up wear it for the loo etc wash your hands sanitise sit back down. Everything was ordered to your table no wandering about perfectly reasonable. I know we won't have 20k crowds at stoke anytime soon but there should be provision for the 6-9k with ease. I can’t see fans returning regardless of numbers being allowed back until after Xmas at the earliest, if at all this season especially coming into the Flu time of year, protecting the NHS and the public far out way a game if football I’m afraid.
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Post by AlliG on Sept 23, 2020 13:13:44 GMT
Have to agree with a lot of your points. I cannot understand why you are allowed to not wear a mask unchallenged. As a diabetic my husband has to carry a note from his doctor to get on an aeroplane with his injections. Surely you can do the same for people who really cannot wear a mask. And anyway if vulnerable people could be told to go nowhere for 12 weeks why should people who can't wear a mask be told not to go in shops. There are plenty of places which deliver. Then everybody knows where they stand. Having been to a few non league matches recently I can see the worry with attending matches as fans just don't distance but seats should be easier to ensure that they do. I think the queuing, toilets and concourses at bigger grounds are a worry though. As for pubs as I said before they need to open to survive but I think making it table service only would be enough without having a 10 o'clock restriction. I fail to see why waitresses and bar staff don't have to wear masks. Having somebody carrying my food to the table who is breathing over it puts me off going into these establishments. What happens if they cough, shout across to someone or just clear their throat? I'm not sure if the new rules covers this, I know it says masks must be mandatory for shop workers. From the Government website " Staff in hospitality and retail will now also be required to wear face coverings (from 24 September)."
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 23, 2020 13:14:42 GMT
Having just returned from Windermere I can assure you every pub and restaurant i went in (many) the staff wore masks both indoors and out. Sit at a table no mask get up wear it for the loo etc wash your hands sanitise sit back down. Everything was ordered to your table no wandering about perfectly reasonable. I know we won't have 20k crowds at stoke anytime soon but there should be provision for the 6-9k with ease. Glad to hear that. I think I've been to two restaurants since they reopened and at neither of them were staff wearing masks. As part of the new regulations all staff do now have to wear masks.
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Post by franklin on Sept 23, 2020 13:17:48 GMT
Having just returned from Windermere I can assure you every pub and restaurant i went in (many) the staff wore masks both indoors and out. Sit at a table no mask get up wear it for the loo etc wash your hands sanitise sit back down. Everything was ordered to your table no wandering about perfectly reasonable. I know we won't have 20k crowds at stoke anytime soon but there should be provision for the 6-9k with ease. Glad to hear that. I think I've been to two restaurants since they reopened and at neither of them were staff wearing masks. This is where it fails I'd just walk out and tell them why they'll soon get the message. Now i know some wont care and thats up to them but I'd choose carefully the kind of establishment I visit.
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Post by franklin on Sept 23, 2020 13:25:58 GMT
Having just returned from Windermere I can assure you every pub and restaurant i went in (many) the staff wore masks both indoors and out. Sit at a table no mask get up wear it for the loo etc wash your hands sanitise sit back down. Everything was ordered to your table no wandering about perfectly reasonable. I know we won't have 20k crowds at stoke anytime soon but there should be provision for the 6-9k with ease. I can’t see fans returning regardless of numbers being allowed back until after Xmas at the earliest, if at all this season especially coming into the Flu time of year, protecting the NHS and the public far out way a game if football I’m afraid. If I remember rightly the NHS stated they are very well prepared now, the "nightingale" hospitals have hardly been used thankfully so while I understand the concern there has to be self regulation and the only way to do that is open up and face it. Very soon as you say winter will be here and if we cant sort this out soon it'll be a double whammy. However regardless cases will keep going from apathy, ignorance, selfishness and just nature. I'd rather a rise now than in December with all that brings too. Regulation can't go on its time to grow up and sort it out ourselves. If people can't figure it out after 6 months then God help us. If your a dirty selfish idiot regulation won't change that public opinion might
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 23, 2020 13:32:54 GMT
Glad to hear that. I think I've been to two restaurants since they reopened and at neither of them were staff wearing masks. This is where it fails I'd just walk out and tell them why they'll soon get the message. Now i know some wont care and thats up to them but I'd choose carefully the kind of establishment I visit. I ought to have added that at both we were eating outside and the well separated tables and the toilets were spotless and staff lovely so we felt very much at ease. It's just later you wonder if you were at risk.
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Post by salfordstokie on Sept 23, 2020 13:40:38 GMT
Hard to believe some of the comments on here about people who cant wear masks - 'they shouldnt go in shops' really did beggar belief. As someone who is exempt I just thought Id mention it is against the equality act to refuse service to someone who is exempt, as is challenging someone in a shop. This is why they dont ask people, as it constitutes discrimination.
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Post by franklin on Sept 23, 2020 13:45:25 GMT
This is where it fails I'd just walk out and tell them why they'll soon get the message. Now i know some wont care and thats up to them but I'd choose carefully the kind of establishment I visit. I ought to have added that at both we were eating outside and the well separated tables and the toilets were spotless and staff lovely so we felt very much at ease. It's just later you wonder if you were at risk. Your right its the unknown you have to be on "red alert" its horses for courses I would have been polite but leave and tell them why and I say that as a healthy bloke. Self preservation and self regulation has to prevail or we'll still be locked down this time next year and still no end in sight. Harsh I know but I really dont care about the selfish being infected other than the burden they place of the rest of society.
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Post by franklin on Sept 23, 2020 13:50:55 GMT
Hard to believe some of the comments on here about people who cant wear masks - 'they shouldnt go in shops' really did beggar belief. As someone who is exempt I just thought Id mention it is against the equality act to refuse service to someone who is exempt, as is challenging someone in a shop. This is why they dont ask people, as it constitutes discrimination. Nobody that I've seen has said any such thing about exemptions forgive me if I've missed that but would you be offended or sue if I asked you before entry? I said I wouldn't let people in without one but not with legitimate reasons thats a given.
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Post by femark on Sept 23, 2020 14:01:53 GMT
Hard to believe some of the comments on here about people who cant wear masks - 'they shouldnt go in shops' really did beggar belief. As someone who is exempt I just thought Id mention it is against the equality act to refuse service to someone who is exempt, as is challenging someone in a shop. This is why they dont ask people, as it constitutes discrimination. Unfortunately some people are just deciding they’re exempt or bending the rules because they don’t want to wear one. That causes animosity with people who are wearing them.
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Post by salfordstokie on Sept 23, 2020 15:56:52 GMT
Hard to believe some of the comments on here about people who cant wear masks - 'they shouldnt go in shops' really did beggar belief. As someone who is exempt I just thought Id mention it is against the equality act to refuse service to someone who is exempt, as is challenging someone in a shop. This is why they dont ask people, as it constitutes discrimination. Nobody that I've seen has said any such thing about exemptions forgive me if I've missed that but would you be offended or sue if I asked you before entry? I said I wouldn't let people in without one but not with legitimate reasons thats a given. The point Im making is that shops are not challenging people because it is effectively discrimination and breaching the data protection act to question if someone has a medical condition or not. Personally if I was asked I would politely say 'Im exempt' and continue shopping, but shops are on shaky ground to even ask.
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Post by chad on Sept 23, 2020 15:57:26 GMT
Thought we were having a club statement this afternoon?
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Post by salfordstokie on Sept 23, 2020 15:59:37 GMT
Hard to believe some of the comments on here about people who cant wear masks - 'they shouldnt go in shops' really did beggar belief. As someone who is exempt I just thought Id mention it is against the equality act to refuse service to someone who is exempt, as is challenging someone in a shop. This is why they dont ask people, as it constitutes discrimination. Unfortunately some people are just deciding they’re exempt or bending the rules because they don’t want to wear one. That causes animosity with people who are wearing them. Regardless of whether you believe someone is being 'genuine' or not, it is the right of anyone to declare they are exempt based on their own circumstances. Everyone should respect everybody else and not become part of the 'mask police'.
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Post by spiderpuss on Sept 23, 2020 16:02:55 GMT
Thought we were having a club statement this afternoon? Dear Supporter, You aint coming in. End of statement. SCFC
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 23, 2020 16:12:10 GMT
Thought we were having a club statement this afternoon? Hardly the need after the government's statement yesterday.
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Post by franklin on Sept 23, 2020 16:55:08 GMT
Nobody that I've seen has said any such thing about exemptions forgive me if I've missed that but would you be offended or sue if I asked you before entry? I said I wouldn't let people in without one but not with legitimate reasons thats a given. The point Im making is that shops are not challenging people because it is effectively discrimination and breaching the data protection act to question if someone has a medical condition or not. Personally if I was asked I would politely say 'Im exempt' and continue shopping, but shops are on shaky ground to even ask. No point telling folk to wear one then 🤷♂️
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Post by femark on Sept 23, 2020 18:33:42 GMT
Unfortunately some people are just deciding they’re exempt or bending the rules because they don’t want to wear one. That causes animosity with people who are wearing them. Regardless of whether you believe someone is being 'genuine' or not, it is the right of anyone to declare they are exempt based on their own circumstances. Everyone should respect everybody else and not become part of the 'mask police'. It’s not anyone’s right to declare they are exempt otherwise it makes a mockery of the rules. I could stop wearing tomorrow and say I’m exempt because I can’t be arsed to wear one.
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Post by leicspotter on Sept 23, 2020 18:58:57 GMT
Unfortunately some people are just deciding they’re exempt or bending the rules because they don’t want to wear one. That causes animosity with people who are wearing them. Regardless of whether you believe someone is being 'genuine' or not, it is the right of anyone to declare they are exempt based on their own circumstances. Everyone should respect everybody else and not become part of the 'mask police'. Precisely, and anyone not wearing a mask, who is genuinely not exempt, is an arsehole who makes it more difficult for those, like yourself, who are exempt
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Post by salfordstokie on Sept 23, 2020 19:50:32 GMT
Regardless of whether you believe someone is being 'genuine' or not, it is the right of anyone to declare they are exempt based on their own circumstances. Everyone should respect everybody else and not become part of the 'mask police'. It’s not anyone’s right to declare they are exempt otherwise it makes a mockery of the rules. I could stop wearing tomorrow and say I’m exempt because I can’t be arsed to wear one. Actually it is. Under the data protection act it is. You dont have to reveal to anyone in a shop why you're not wearing a mask. That is private information, regardless of whether it 'makes a mockery of the rules'. I would advise people to print off an exemption pass and carry it as a landyard in case they are unfairly challenged.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 23, 2020 19:57:48 GMT
It’s not anyone’s right to declare they are exempt otherwise it makes a mockery of the rules. I could stop wearing tomorrow and say I’m exempt because I can’t be arsed to wear one. Actually it is. Under the data protection act it is. You dont have to reveal to anyone in a shop why you're not wearing a mask. That is private information, regardless of whether it 'makes a mockery of the rules'. I would advise people to print off an exemption pass and carry it as a landyard in case they are unfairly challenged. Absolutely they should. Imagine if you didn't have to display a blue badge on your dashboard, proving that you were allowed to park on a single yellow line because it was all done on trust. You'd have cars parked illegally all over the place. Give people the opportunity to exploit something for their own benefit and they'll grab it with both hands.
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 23, 2020 20:02:50 GMT
Hard to believe some of the comments on here about people who cant wear masks - 'they shouldnt go in shops' really did beggar belief. As someone who is exempt I just thought Id mention it is against the equality act to refuse service to someone who is exempt, as is challenging someone in a shop. This is why they dont ask people, as it constitutes discrimination. Would you mind being asked for a card showing you were exempt? My point was that because shops are not allowed to ask and because exempt people do not have to show proof it is abused by people who don't want to wear one. Was it fair that diabetics for example were told they could not leave the house? Lots of people have had to make sacrifices and it irks me slightly that we are not supposed to ask you if you have a genuine reason for not wearing a mask. For example I followed a couple into a supermarket today neither of whom were wearing masks. How likely is it that both of them were exempt?
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Post by femark on Sept 23, 2020 20:10:19 GMT
It’s not anyone’s right to declare they are exempt otherwise it makes a mockery of the rules. I could stop wearing tomorrow and say I’m exempt because I can’t be arsed to wear one. Actually it is. Under the data protection act it is. You dont have to reveal to anyone in a shop why you're not wearing a mask. That is private information, regardless of whether it 'makes a mockery of the rules'. I would advise people to print off an exemption pass and carry it as a landyard in case they are unfairly challenged. Ok mate, I’ll go and print mine off now. Anyone else want one whilst I’m at it?
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Post by danceswithclams on Sept 23, 2020 20:36:06 GMT
The guidelines/legislation doesn't explicitly state that face masks must be worn on the face.
As such, I wear one cradling my balls (giving the effect of two warm eggs in a miniscule lycra hammock).
I tell shop staff this when challenged and only once have I been asked to prove it.
I am now barred from all branches of WH Smith in the UK.
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Post by franklin on Sept 23, 2020 21:28:12 GMT
It’s not anyone’s right to declare they are exempt otherwise it makes a mockery of the rules. I could stop wearing tomorrow and say I’m exempt because I can’t be arsed to wear one. Actually it is. Under the data protection act it is. You dont have to reveal to anyone in a shop why you're not wearing a mask. That is private information, regardless of whether it 'makes a mockery of the rules'. I would advise people to print off an exemption pass and carry it as a landyard in case they are unfairly challenged. I'm not sure the data protection act does cover being asked about a mask. Its not data and its not being held or used and if it were the "data" it would be lawfully obtained anyway as it now law to wear a mask.
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Post by franklin on Sept 23, 2020 21:35:25 GMT
Actually it is. Under the data protection act it is. You dont have to reveal to anyone in a shop why you're not wearing a mask. That is private information, regardless of whether it 'makes a mockery of the rules'. I would advise people to print off an exemption pass and carry it as a landyard in case they are unfairly challenged. Ok mate, I’ll go and print mine off now. Anyone else want one whilst I’m at it? They are on the .gov website its ridiculous. No need for any medical confirmation its enough just for you to say so.
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Post by timbstoke on Sept 24, 2020 9:08:28 GMT
Hard to believe some of the comments on here about people who cant wear masks - 'they shouldnt go in shops' really did beggar belief. As someone who is exempt I just thought Id mention it is against the equality act to refuse service to someone who is exempt, as is challenging someone in a shop. This is why they dont ask people, as it constitutes discrimination. No, it isn't. Here's the relevant part: 15 Discrimination arising from disability
(1)A person (A) discriminates against a disabled person (B) if—
(a)A treats B unfavourably because of something arising in consequence of B's disability, and
(b)A cannot show that the treatment is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
(2)Subsection (1) does not apply if A shows that A did not know, and could not reasonably have been expected to know, that B had the disability.Every single point of that rebuts your argument. First, being asked to wear a mask isn't being "treated unfavourably" compared to other customers. Second, even if it was, asking you to wear a mask is a proportionate means of stopping a global pandemic. Third, if the shop don't challenge you, how would you expect them to be "reasonably expected to know" that you have an exemption? Finally, having satisfied themselves that you have a disability, the store has a duty to take "such steps as is reasonable" to avoid any disadvantage you may suffer. Allowing you to infect other customers and contaminate the store with a deadly disease is not, in my opinion, a reasonable adjustment.
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