|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 6, 2020 21:22:20 GMT
As I haven't seen much publicised locally I thought it might be helpful if I gave some information and a national perspective on the issues around the return of fans to stadia. Apologies to those readers who already know most or even all of this stuff. For those who want to read for themselves the key documents, they are firstly, Government policy as it now stands www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/elite-sport-return-to-competition-safe-return-of-spectatorsand secondly, the Sports Ground Safety Authority ( the quango which has responsibility for this area) draft rules, which as you will see are long and highly detailed sgsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SG02-Planning-for-social-distancing-at-sports-grounds.pdfThe season will start on 12 September, but fans will not be allowed back until 3 October at the earliest ( of course that could change if the virus situation worsens and/or there are local lockdowns). There may need to be some test events. The complex SGSA rules will mean that most grounds will probably be allowed 20%-40% capacity, i.e probably a max of about 11k in our case. It will not necessarily be even across a ground, but variable in different stands.There are complex issues here on the application of social distancing rules. One is whether there will have to be 1 seat or 2 between each spectator or group of spectators. Groups or families who are in a single household or a bubble will not need to have an empty seat or seats between them. Thus the more of those which attend the higher the allowed capacity. The major concerns are not about when the match is in progress when everyone is facing forward, but about entering and leaving the ground, the concourses, refreshment counters, toilets and transport to and from the ground. There is also obviously a tension between the normal security procedures involving pats down and the social distancing requirements for stewards.There is also a humorous side to some of this. One document talked about the need to take care when singing How exactly do you do that ? To avoid the normal late rush, it is likely that fans will be given an arrival time which could be up to 3 hours before kick-off. A bit like checking in for a flight. Miss your appointment and you won't get in. And we might have random temperature tests.The recording of names and contact details could have implications if clubs try to use it in other ways such as checking that there isn't abuse of the use of season cards. There may be suspension of some legislation and EFL rules. For example, if clubs want to introduce serving of alcoholic drink and food at seats to avoid crowding at the counters, possibly using an app to order it, the law might be changed to allow this. The EFL are likely to suspend their rules on away fans allocations. This will be a key issue with possibly reduced away allocations as a % of the total or no away fans at all. I think fans will want some reciprocity between clubs here. The FSA is putting forward some general principles such as fairness e.g corporates or more expensive seats should not be prioritised, or disabled fans de-prioritised. This situation should not be used as a back-door way of introducing controversial or unpopular changes which would then become the new norm. Most of the stuff about numbers, distancing etc., will be outside local control. But decisions on ticketing and pricing i.e what is the rationing policy on who gets into the ground will be within the control of individual clubs. This will obviously be an area of intense interest to fans. Do season card holders get priority ( which could mean all the tickets) ? How and at what level do the club refund those who don't get in ? Will streaming offers be part of that ? Are away fans allowed, if so how many ? How will tickets be allocated ? A ballot or existing loyalty points or some other method ? What is the approach in the allocation system to family groups who can sit next to each other ? And so on and so on. The FSA will be producing some checklists and guidance notes on this, as well as a database on what clubs are deciding. The EFL is encouraging clubs to consult local fans groups about all these questions. In my dual capacity as Chair of the Supporters club and Chair of the FSA, I wrote to ask for consultation but received the disappointing response that there wouldn't be any. However I then noticed in the Sentinel that there was a meeting between the Club and the Supporters Council about this a week ago today. I may have missed it ( if so apologies to those involved ) but I haven't noticed any report back to supporters after that meeting. Neither have I noticed any consultation by either the Club or the Council on the ticketing and rationing policies which might be adopted ( again, apologies if I've missed it). Some clubs have started consultation and in some cases taking some decisions on these issues. Of course it will be dependent on the numbers actually allowed but some of the principles could be discussed now. Both the Supporters club and the FSA would be interested to hear the views of fans. If you don't want to post on here, feel free to PM me or email to info@thefsa.org.uk I am sorry for such a long post, but it's difficult to cover all the issues briefly. If you have got this far, well done and I hope that at least some readers have found it useful.
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Aug 6, 2020 21:25:45 GMT
Don't apologise Malcolm, took a few moments to read.
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 6, 2020 21:28:10 GMT
I've just noticed I've posted the same link twice. Apologies. I'll get the SGSA link
|
|
|
Post by biglad180 on Aug 6, 2020 21:30:08 GMT
i think the season should not start till the fans can go to games football is just not the same without the fans,people may not agree but thats just my opinion,
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 6, 2020 21:30:34 GMT
I've just noticed I've posted the same link twice. Apologies. I'll get the SGSA link Now corrected
|
|
|
Post by keasie1863 on Aug 6, 2020 21:31:36 GMT
As I haven't seen much publicised locally I thought it might be helpful if I gave some information and a national perspective on the issues around the return of fans to stadia. Apologies to those readers who already know most or even all of this stuff. For those who want to read for themselves the key documents, they are firstly, Government policy as it now stands www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/elite-sport-return-to-competition-safe-return-of-spectatorsand secondly, the Sports Ground Safety Authority ( the quango which has responsibility for this area) draft rules, which as you will see are long and highly detailed www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/elite-sport-return-to-competition-safe-return-of-spectatorsThe season will start on 12 September, but fans will not be allowed back until 3 October at the earliest ( of course that could change if the virus situation worsens and/or there are local lockdowns). There may need to be some test events. The complex SGSA rules will mean that most grounds will probably be allowed 20%-40% capacity, i.e probably a max of about 11k in our case. It will not necessarily be even across a ground, but variable in different stands.There are complex issues here on the application of social distancing rules. One is whether there will have to be 1 seat or 2 between each spectator or group of spectators. Groups or families who are in a single household or a bubble will not need to have an empty seat or seats between them. Thus the more of those which attend the higher the allowed capacity. The major concerns are not about when the match is in progress when everyone is facing forward, but about entering and leaving the ground, the concourses, refreshment counters, toilets and transport to and from the ground. There is also obviously a tension between the normal security procedures involving pats down and the social distancing requirements for stewards.There is also a humorous side to some of this. One document talked about the need to take care when singing How exactly do you do that ? To avoid the normal late rush, it is likely that fans will be given an arrival time which could be up to 3 hours before kick-off. A bit like checking in for a flight. Miss your appointment and you won't get in. And we might have random temperature tests.The recording of names and contact details could have implications if clubs try to use it in other ways such as checking that there isn't abuse of the use of season cards. There may be suspension of some legislation and EFL rules. For example, if clubs want to introduce serving of alcoholic drink and food at seats to avoid crowding at the counters, possibly using an app to order it, the law might be changed to allow this. The EFL are likely to suspend their rules on away fans allocations. This will be a key issue with possibly reduced away allocations as a % of the total or no away fans at all. I think fans will want some reciprocity between clubs here. The FSA is putting forward some general principles such as fairness e.g corporates or more expensive seats should not be prioritised, or disabled fans de-prioritised. This situation should not be used as a back-door way of introducing controversial or unpopular changes which would then become the new norm. Most of the stuff about numbers, distancing etc., will be outside local control. But decisions on ticketing and pricing i.e what is the rationing policy on who gets into the ground will be within the control of individual clubs. This will obviously be an area of intense interest to fans. Do season card holders get priority ( which could mean all the tickets) ? How and at what level do the club refund those who don't get in ? Will streaming offers be part of that ? Are away fans allowed, if so how many ? How will tickets be allocated ? A ballot or existing loyalty points or some other method ? What is the approach in the allocation system to family groups who can sit next to each other ? And so on and so on. The FSA will be producing some checklists and guidance notes on this, as well as a database on what clubs are deciding. The EFL is encouraging clubs to consult local fans groups about all these questions. In my dual capacity as Chair of the Supporters club and Chair of the FSA, I wrote to ask for consultation but received the disappointing response that there wouldn't be any. However I then noticed in the Sentinel that there was a meeting between the Club and the Supporters Council about this a week ago today. I may have missed it ( if so apologies to those involved ) but I haven't noticed any report back to supporters after that meeting. Neither have I noticed any consultation by either the Club or the Council on the ticketing and rationing policies which might be adopted ( again, apologies if I've missed it). Some clubs have started consultation and in some cases taking some decisions on these issues. Of course it will be dependent on the numbers actually allowed but some of the principles could be discussed now. Both the Supporters club and the FSA would be interested to hear the views of fans. If you don't want to post on here, feel free to PM me or email to info@thefsa.org.uk I am sorry for such a long post, but it's difficult to cover all the issues briefly. If you have got this far, well done and I hope that at least some readers have found it useful. Thanks so much for that malcolm. If that staggered entry is implemented,possibly up to 3 hrs before the game,then I for one will not attend.being going stoke for 42 years,through thick and thin,lol.but that would finish it for me,I'm sad to say.
|
|
|
Post by lordb on Aug 6, 2020 21:33:03 GMT
i think the season should not start till the fans can go to games football is just not the same without the fans,people may not agree but thats just my opinion, Think we all think that however the clubs need income ASAP so TV will pay for games. Don't think there's any choice. If we have to wait for the supporters to come back that could be the end for swathes of clubs including Championship clubs.
|
|
|
Post by pistol on Aug 6, 2020 21:40:51 GMT
Get rid of searches at turnstiles. They are useless anyway for the cursory pat they give you.
Close the concourse for loitering in and have a one way system to buy food and drink and relax the law to allow drinking in your seat.
Must be some easy ways to allow safe entry and exit from the ground. Exit block by block maybe via the track around the pitch? People are going to have to be patient and wait if they want to get back to watching live sport.
|
|
|
Post by stokeykez on Aug 6, 2020 21:43:26 GMT
I like most will be patient to return to stoke. I do have concern that with suggested staggered entry times, this may lead to either high levels of alcohol intake if allowed to get a beer , secondly I do worry about levels of hypothermia. Going into the ground in the bleak cold months just before kick off and the cold really starts to set in 2and half. To ask kids, older persons to sit for longer in seats that are not populated so do not keep body heat in as much, this must be taken into account.
|
|
|
Post by stokeykez on Aug 6, 2020 21:44:29 GMT
Get rid of searches at turnstiles. They are useless anyway for the cursory pat they give you. Close the concourse for loitering in and have a one way system to buy food and drink and relax the law to allow drinking in your seat. Must be some easy ways to allow safe entry and exit from the ground. Exit block by block maybe via the track around the pitch? People are going to have to be patient and wait if they want to get back to watching live sport. In todays world it's about times we had body scanners at grounds
|
|
|
Post by wizardofdribble on Aug 6, 2020 21:45:45 GMT
Thank You for that Malcolm, most informative.
|
|
|
Post by SamB_SCFC on Aug 6, 2020 21:49:03 GMT
It's all so depressing isn't it. Arriving 3 hours before kick off on one of the classically cold winter days at the Bet 365? No thanks.
Football is a social experience and it just doesn't work with social distancing.
|
|
|
Post by spiderpuss on Aug 6, 2020 21:52:49 GMT
"To avoid the normal late rush, it is likely that fans will be given an arrival time which could be up to 3 hours before kick-off. " Forget it. I'd rather get pissed in front of the TV.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 22:02:10 GMT
Thanks Malc
Going to be quite an operation
I personally saw this as another SARS scare and would all blow over in a matter of weeks. I think it puts it into perspective a bit more.
I honestly think a good number of people wouldn't attend with such measures in place so it may alleviate who can and get get tickets. As for the alcohol situation, the half time rush to down a pint never concerned me but I guess bottles only could be served in a slightly quicker way for those who feel the need. It is a valuable source of income for clubs I guess
|
|
|
Post by scfcno1fan on Aug 6, 2020 22:23:40 GMT
Get rid of searches at turnstiles. They are useless anyway for the cursory pat they give you. Close the concourse for loitering in and have a one way system to buy food and drink and relax the law to allow drinking in your seat. Must be some easy ways to allow safe entry and exit from the ground. Exit block by block maybe via the track around the pitch? People are going to have to be patient and wait if they want to get back to watching live sport. In todays world it's about times we had body scanners at grounds Aye. Security is still important. I agree the pat the security guards give you doesn’t really do much, but it was still better than nothing.
|
|
|
Post by ashleyscfc on Aug 6, 2020 22:43:29 GMT
Cheers for the update Malcolm.
I think at stoke due to how many fans would turn up we would probably be able to manage social distancing.
To manage this I think the club have a chance to make some positive changes. Installing a new external fence around the outside path of the ground could be fitted to create a new outer corden.
Then use this new outdoor area for holding people outside pre match. Add in new catering facilities and keep the indoor concourse for either going to your seat or using the toilets. Keeping congregation indoors to a minimum.
This new outdoor space could kept permanently and fill the ‘family zone’ gap fans had been asking for. Maybe it also finally time to install automatic turnstiles? Turn the Boothen and away stand car park’s into the new turnstile area?
The new increased area could also be used to call people to their seats row by row; block by block, starting back first? Maybe this should be how the arrival times are allocated? In relation to contact details this should already be provided by card users surely? Remove all cash tickets and do ticket card with stoke account only?
As long as everyone is in their existing or new allocated spot that should help with tracing if needed also? As stoke will know everyone sat in a particular radius? And this could be emphasised to fans prior to KO. Also perhaps the club could allow use of any unused boxes/stream to those shielding?
|
|
|
Post by Gods on Aug 6, 2020 22:58:46 GMT
Thanks for that update Malcolm.
Are you really saying that 3 weeks after the start of next season (3rd October) there might be a gate of 11,000 for a Stoke City home game?
|
|
|
Post by owdestokie2 on Aug 6, 2020 23:33:25 GMT
As I haven't seen much publicised locally I thought it might be helpful if I gave some information and a national perspective on the issues around the return of fans to stadia. Apologies to those readers who already know most or even all of this stuff. For those who want to read for themselves the key documents, they are firstly, Government policy as it now stands www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/elite-sport-return-to-competition-safe-return-of-spectatorsand secondly, the Sports Ground Safety Authority ( the quango which has responsibility for this area) draft rules, which as you will see are long and highly detailed www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/elite-sport-return-to-competition-safe-return-of-spectatorsThe season will start on 12 September, but fans will not be allowed back until 3 October at the earliest ( of course that could change if the virus situation worsens and/or there are local lockdowns). There may need to be some test events. The complex SGSA rules will mean that most grounds will probably be allowed 20%-40% capacity, i.e probably a max of about 11k in our case. It will not necessarily be even across a ground, but variable in different stands.There are complex issues here on the application of social distancing rules. One is whether there will have to be 1 seat or 2 between each spectator or group of spectators. Groups or families who are in a single household or a bubble will not need to have an empty seat or seats between them. Thus the more of those which attend the higher the allowed capacity. The major concerns are not about when the match is in progress when everyone is facing forward, but about entering and leaving the ground, the concourses, refreshment counters, toilets and transport to and from the ground. There is also obviously a tension between the normal security procedures involving pats down and the social distancing requirements for stewards.There is also a humorous side to some of this. One document talked about the need to take care when singing How exactly do you do that ? To avoid the normal late rush, it is likely that fans will be given an arrival time which could be up to 3 hours before kick-off. A bit like checking in for a flight. Miss your appointment and you won't get in. And we might have random temperature tests.The recording of names and contact details could have implications if clubs try to use it in other ways such as checking that there isn't abuse of the use of season cards. There may be suspension of some legislation and EFL rules. For example, if clubs want to introduce serving of alcoholic drink and food at seats to avoid crowding at the counters, possibly using an app to order it, the law might be changed to allow this. The EFL are likely to suspend their rules on away fans allocations. This will be a key issue with possibly reduced away allocations as a % of the total or no away fans at all. I think fans will want some reciprocity between clubs here. The FSA is putting forward some general principles such as fairness e.g corporates or more expensive seats should not be prioritised, or disabled fans de-prioritised. This situation should not be used as a back-door way of introducing controversial or unpopular changes which would then become the new norm. Most of the stuff about numbers, distancing etc., will be outside local control. But decisions on ticketing and pricing i.e what is the rationing policy on who gets into the ground will be within the control of individual clubs. This will obviously be an area of intense interest to fans. Do season card holders get priority ( which could mean all the tickets) ? How and at what level do the club refund those who don't get in ? Will streaming offers be part of that ? Are away fans allowed, if so how many ? How will tickets be allocated ? A ballot or existing loyalty points or some other method ? What is the approach in the allocation system to family groups who can sit next to each other ? And so on and so on. The FSA will be producing some checklists and guidance notes on this, as well as a database on what clubs are deciding. The EFL is encouraging clubs to consult local fans groups about all these questions. In my dual capacity as Chair of the Supporters club and Chair of the FSA, I wrote to ask for consultation but received the disappointing response that there wouldn't be any. However I then noticed in the Sentinel that there was a meeting between the Club and the Supporters Council about this a week ago today. I may have missed it ( if so apologies to those involved ) but I haven't noticed any report back to supporters after that meeting. Neither have I noticed any consultation by either the Club or the Council on the ticketing and rationing policies which might be adopted ( again, apologies if I've missed it). Some clubs have started consultation and in some cases taking some decisions on these issues. Of course it will be dependent on the numbers actually allowed but some of the principles could be discussed now. Both the Supporters club and the FSA would be interested to hear the views of fans. If you don't want to post on here, feel free to PM me or email to info@thefsa.org.uk I am sorry for such a long post, but it's difficult to cover all the issues briefly. If you have got this far, well done and I hope that at least some readers have found it useful. Thanks so much for that malcolm. If that staggered entry is implemented,possibly up to 3 hrs before the game,then I for one will not attend.being going stoke for 42 years,through thick and thin,lol.but that would finish it for me,I'm sad to say. 59 years and ageee
|
|
|
Post by Cast no shadow on Aug 7, 2020 0:03:36 GMT
Great stuff Malcolm.
21/22 it is for me then, I understand it, can't be doing that malarkey.
|
|
|
Post by zerps on Aug 7, 2020 4:55:08 GMT
When we’ve got a virus so deadly that most people don’t know they have it, we need to be as careful as possible 😷🤐
|
|
|
Post by benjaminbiscuit on Aug 7, 2020 6:06:18 GMT
Just puts more logic behind give the oxford vaccine to everyone over 50 on he Autumn and then herd immunity for the rest definitely must be i their thinking
|
|
|
Post by westlandstokie on Aug 7, 2020 7:07:43 GMT
Thanks for this Malcolm...very interesting and much appreciated I personally won't be bothering to attend until things are back to some sort of normal...no chance I'm going to get there at mid day and sit freezing to death in block 23 . Let's be honest about this...the match is going to take up most of your Saturday... it will be a complete farce and I certainly don't need being told what to do....where to stand....when to go to the loo by the stewards etc...so after 45 years of watching the Potters through thick and thin this will probably drive me away completely I'm sad to say as I've really not missed it that much...probably an age thing and having lots of other things in my life apart from football
|
|
|
Post by Gods on Aug 7, 2020 7:23:24 GMT
Just puts more logic behind give the oxford vaccine to everyone over 50 on he Autumn and then herd immunity for the rest definitely must be i their thinking You're convinced we will be dishing out the 'Oxford vaccine' like candy in the next few weeks but I don't think it works like that, don't all new treatments need to go through months of rigorous FDA approval and that is why we keep hearing 18 months if at all?
|
|
|
Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 7, 2020 7:49:28 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to give us all this info, Malcolm. A few random points from me:
1. Would I be correct in thinking that the small size of many of our concourses (relative to the capacity of the stand they serve) is likely to mean that the bet365 reduced capacity may be less than it would have been with concourses which were larger than the bare minimum? I've always thought our concourses are ridiculously small in all but the main stand lower - any chance of persuading the club to increase the concourse size PERMANENTLY - not just adding an open air area (as suggested earlier in the thread) during the period of the pandemic?
2. As regards arrival times of up to 3 hours before kick off - can we hope that fans who live hundreds of miles away could be given later arrival times? I rarely get to the Brit these days (too old and decrepit!) but when I had my season ticket a round trip to a game was around 8 hours plus. Adding 3 hours to that makes it an 11 hours plus round trip. Also the idea of not getting in if you miss your arrival time is tough on a local fan but would probably be the final straw for a fan who faces an 8 hour + round trip and £50 in petrol or the cost of a rail ticket.
I'll be interested to see how ticket allocations work if we operate at around 30% capacity - I would not like to be the person devising the system. Some are going to be very disappointed and possibly angry.
Thanks again for your efforts - I'm a bit shocked that we haven't had more from the club and the supporters council by now.
|
|
Lard
Academy Starlet
Posts: 148
|
Post by Lard on Aug 7, 2020 8:03:30 GMT
No rush to return until some semblance of normality is restored. I do think it is important that all season ticket holders have their seats locked in to allow a first refusal for when we can return.
Obviously we would need to reimbursed accordingly also
|
|
|
Post by raythesailor on Aug 7, 2020 8:04:07 GMT
It’s going to be a tight fixture list which presumably means quite a few midweek games. Arriving 3 hrs before KO, “ On a cold wet night at the Brit” will have a whole new connotation. I don’t think many will want do it.⚓️
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 7, 2020 8:21:59 GMT
Thanks for that update Malcolm. Are you really saying that 3 weeks after the start of next season (3rd October) there might be a gate of 11,000 for a Stoke City home game? I just applied the top end of the predicted range to our capacity, Godfrey. I don't know what the actual figure will be for Stoke, which might turn out to be more or less than that figure. My own feeling is that the sorts of measures which are being considered might deter a significant number of fans, particularly when the weather turns cold, as some posters have indicated for themselves in this thread. So the 'rationing' issue might not be as big a challenge as we think, particularly if on-line streaming is offered. As for the date, your guess is as good as mine. My guess would be that 3rd October may well turn out to be optimistic, possibly very optimistic.
|
|
|
Post by leicspotter on Aug 7, 2020 8:23:19 GMT
Thanks Malcolm
From these comments, and others I have read, I think there may be quite an element of self regulation when it comes to attendance levels. That suggests the club might first want to engage with the fanbase and see just how many would actually want to attend matches, given the circumstances outlined (which would need to be made clear upfront). This would be especially true with the number of midweek games scheduled.
Once the club has a good idea of how they need to manage the match day experience they should notify us and seek to ascertain just how many would wish to attend...they might be surprised.
Personally, I would want to attend as many games as possible and would put up with some level of inconvenience, as long as it is justifiable.
|
|
|
Post by flea79 on Aug 7, 2020 8:29:02 GMT
There may be suspension of some legislation and EFL rules. For example, if clubs want to introduce serving of alcoholic drink and food at seats to avoid crowding at the counters, possibly using an app to order it, the law might be changed to allow this. we only just got to pay by card, an app is available sometime in the year 4000
|
|
|
Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 7, 2020 8:33:37 GMT
There may be suspension of some legislation and EFL rules. For example, if clubs want to introduce serving of alcoholic drink and food at seats to avoid crowding at the counters, possibly using an app to order it, the law might be changed to allow this. we only just got to pay by card, an app is available sometime in the year 4000 We should put Boris in charge. Then at least we can be certain that the app will be "world beating!"
|
|