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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 12:28:32 GMT
What we COULD have done, unlike Labour and the Tories What we do now, try not to interefere, in the sense of we can solve all problems. Unfortunately I think that we are going to go through a period in history of turbulence and as much as you might not like it we need to look after our own , as most countries do BUT work as much as we can to support and build up developing countries, it won't happen overnight and when China, the environment and what is happening in North Africa/ Nigeria is thrown into the equation it doesn't look too good. And I think that we should try to move away from party politics in this country, I don't think the Left have worked out that they are always going to be the losers against the natural party of government. That would be a start, but of course there’s absolutely no signs that our foreign policy will change soon. You managed to shoehorn a sentence in about “The Left” as well John so fair play to you..... Yes , those who think that they are spokespersons for the Left and think that "the Left" represent the working class have a lot to answer for. I see you've caught up with the criticism of Labour , who if course are not the Left. Mind you , you are probably right , keep the left out of this, just an issue for government and Farage.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 28, 2021 12:37:03 GMT
That would be a start, but of course there’s absolutely no signs that our foreign policy will change soon. You managed to shoehorn a sentence in about “The Left” as well John so fair play to you..... Yes , those who think that they are spokespersons for the Left and think that "the Left" represent the working class have a lot to answer for. I see you've caught up with the criticism of Labour , who if course are not the Left. Mind you , you are probably right , keep the left out of this, just an issue for government and Farage. Farage is currently basing himself on a dinghy in the English Channel preaching to the converted on You Tube John. I think you’re overplaying his hand a little.......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 12:41:28 GMT
Yes , those who think that they are spokespersons for the Left and think that "the Left" represent the working class have a lot to answer for. I see you've caught up with the criticism of Labour , who if course are not the Left. Mind you , you are probably right , keep the left out of this, just an issue for government and Farage. Farage is currently basing himself on a dinghy in the English Channel preaching to the converted on You Tube John. I think you’re overplaying his hand a little....... Not all, he is playing the long game, BUT also drawing attention to something that the Left can't address. Best left alone and to talk about Corbyn, antisemitism and internal party struggles, that'll solve the problem.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 28, 2021 13:30:48 GMT
Farage is currently basing himself on a dinghy in the English Channel preaching to the converted on You Tube John. I think you’re overplaying his hand a little....... Not all, he is playing the long game, BUT also drawing attention to something that the Left can't address. Best left alone and to talk about Corbyn, antisemitism and internal party struggles, that'll solve the problem. You keep bringing Corbyn and antisemitism into an immigration thread John, are you ok?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 13:37:40 GMT
Not all, he is playing the long game, BUT also drawing attention to something that the Left can't address. Best left alone and to talk about Corbyn, antisemitism and internal party struggles, that'll solve the problem. You keep bringing Corbyn and antisemitism into an immigration thread John, are you ok? Absolutely fine. I know the left don't belong where the issues are.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 28, 2021 13:46:39 GMT
You keep bringing Corbyn and antisemitism into an immigration thread John, are you ok? Absolutely fine. I know the left don't belong where the issues are. Do you John. That’s nice.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 28, 2021 13:49:46 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 28, 2021 13:52:24 GMT
He gets most things right.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 14:30:17 GMT
I've just referred to this Sheikhy, I don't think we should 100% believe the Home Office, who can you trust.....they have refused to comment on other aspects....at least he is critical of Patel and the Government, a bit more effective than others.
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Post by elystokie on Feb 28, 2021 14:56:10 GMT
I've just referred to this Sheikhy, I don't think we should 100% believe the Home Office, who can you trust.....they have refused to comment on other aspects....at least he is critical of Patel and the Government, a bit more effective than others. I do love your selection processes for who and what you do and don't believe BJR, I can still remember you pretty much telling me I couldn't have seen what I did last year because you didn't see it yourself! It's tickled me ever since
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 15:08:13 GMT
I've just referred to this Sheikhy, I don't think we should 100% believe the Home Office, who can you trust.....they have refused to comment on other aspects....at least he is critical of Patel and the Government, a bit more effective than others. I do love your selection processes for who and what you do and don't believe BJR, I can still remember you pretty much telling me I couldn't have seen what I did last year because you didn't see it yourself! It's tickled me ever since I can't remember that Ely, but I think it is best to question everything. In truth, I don’t particularly believe that Farage is correct on all being found positive for the virus, but I believe that the Home Office has said that one of them were......and the others have spent a few hours on a dinghy with them.....social distancing? Also we know according to the Guardian that the Asylum centre was closed earlier in the month due to the virus, and the Home Office have refused to comment on that. And weald know that illegal immigrants are crossing the Channel on a regular basis, which will probably increase as the weather improves. And we know that Farage is highlighting this and being very critical of the government. Now , just an opinion here, not knowledge...the Tories are involved because they are in Government ....the Left don’t seem to be taking the government to rask on the issue, being more concerned with internal politics.
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Post by elystokie on Feb 28, 2021 15:17:41 GMT
I do love your selection processes for who and what you do and don't believe BJR, I can still remember you pretty much telling me I couldn't have seen what I did last year because you didn't see it yourself! It's tickled me ever since I can't remember that Ely, but I think it is best to question everything. In truth, I don’t particularly believe that Farage is correct on all being found positive for the virus, but I believe that the Home Office has said that one of them were......and the others have spent a few hours on a dinghy with the.....social distancing? Also we know according to the Guardian that the Asylum centre was closed earlier in the month due to the virus, and the Home Office have refused to comment on that. And weald know that illegal immigrants are crossing the Channel on a regular basis, which will probably increase as the weather improves. And we know that Farage is highlighting this and being very critical of the government. Now , just an opinion here, not knowledge...the Tories are involved because they are in Government ....the Left don’t seem to be taking the government to rask on the issue, being more concerned with internal politics. I saw a group of teenagers on my daily walk, the day after Boris had been forced to end the lockdown early to distract people from the Cummings debacle. I saw a group of teenagers, you told me I didn't I might have some, however limited, time for Farage if it wasn't for his fawning over Trump last year 🤮
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 16:01:27 GMT
I can't remember that Ely, but I think it is best to question everything. In truth, I don’t particularly believe that Farage is correct on all being found positive for the virus, but I believe that the Home Office has said that one of them were......and the others have spent a few hours on a dinghy with the.....social distancing? Also we know according to the Guardian that the Asylum centre was closed earlier in the month due to the virus, and the Home Office have refused to comment on that. And weald know that illegal immigrants are crossing the Channel on a regular basis, which will probably increase as the weather improves. And we know that Farage is highlighting this and being very critical of the government. Now , just an opinion here, not knowledge...the Tories are involved because they are in Government ....the Left don’t seem to be taking the government to rask on the issue, being more concerned with internal politics. I saw a group of teenagers on my daily walk, the day after Boris had been forced to end the lockdown early to distract people from the Cummings debacle. I saw a group of teenagers, you told me I didn't I might have some, however limited, time for Farage if it wasn't for his fawning over Trump last year 🤮 I agree Farage and Trump, but I think that there is personal stuff going on and he would have been in agreement with his " stsnce" at the beginning of his reign...but clearly, for me , Trump is a flawed character. I still can't recall the post exchange thst you refer to, indeed it would be stupid of me to say that you haven't seen what you did see....apologies if it came over that way.....I do recall that my stance at the time was thst " While what Cummings did was hypocritical and open to criticism, I don't think it necessarily follows that " everyone is now going to do what they want( ie being in crowds) because of Cummings....perhaps that's what I meant....it is certainly what I believe)). In respect of the Home Office, Government, I don't think that you can believe everything that they say....on this particular issue, I can agree that may be all 12 did not prove positive with the virus( which is why I posed it as a question) but I do think the principle and potential is the same......and by the way, I would like something to be done to help those seeking asylum, but condoning the Channel crossings isn't the answer.
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Post by elystokie on Feb 28, 2021 16:16:42 GMT
I saw a group of teenagers on my daily walk, the day after Boris had been forced to end the lockdown early to distract people from the Cummings debacle. I saw a group of teenagers, you told me I didn't I might have some, however limited, time for Farage if it wasn't for his fawning over Trump last year 🤮 I agree Farage and Trump, but I think that there is personal stuff going on and he would have been in agreement with his " stsnce" at the beginning of his reign...but clearly, for me , Trump is a flawed character. I still can't recall the post exchange thst you refer to, indeed it would be stupid of me to say that you haven't seen what you did see....apologies if it came over that way.....I do recall that my stance at the time was thst " While what Cummings did was hypocritical and open to criticism, I don't think it necessarily follows that " everyone is now going to do what they want( ie being in crowds) because of Cummings....perhaps that's what I meant....it is certainly what I believe)). In respect of the Home Office, Government, I don't think that you can believe everything that they say....on this particular issue, I can agree that may be all 12 did not prove positive with the virus( which is why I posed it as a question) but I do think the principle and potential is the same......and by the way, I would like something to be done to help those seeking asylum, but condoning the Channel crossings isn't the answer. I think and thought that Boris sacrificed people lives by using the distraction, obviously there's degrees of harm but there was no need, just force Cummings to apologise or resign and it's over. I don't think everyone did do "as they want" but to imagine it wouldn't have any effect at all in that direction was and is very naive in my opinion and I saw the evidence. The channel crossings and immigrant issue is something I'm out of my depth on and out of the Home Office and Farage I'm really not sure who is to be believed but I'm not sure why Farage would have access to definitive information, what position is he holding nowadays?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 18:11:47 GMT
I agree Farage and Trump, but I think that there is personal stuff going on and he would have been in agreement with his " stsnce" at the beginning of his reign...but clearly, for me , Trump is a flawed character. I still can't recall the post exchange thst you refer to, indeed it would be stupid of me to say that you haven't seen what you did see....apologies if it came over that way.....I do recall that my stance at the time was thst " While what Cummings did was hypocritical and open to criticism, I don't think it necessarily follows that " everyone is now going to do what they want( ie being in crowds) because of Cummings....perhaps that's what I meant....it is certainly what I believe)). In respect of the Home Office, Government, I don't think that you can believe everything that they say....on this particular issue, I can agree that may be all 12 did not prove positive with the virus( which is why I posed it as a question) but I do think the principle and potential is the same......and by the way, I would like something to be done to help those seeking asylum, but condoning the Channel crossings isn't the answer. I think and thought that Boris sacrificed people lives by using the distraction, obviously there's degrees of harm but there was no need, just force Cummings to apologise or resign and it's over. I don't think everyone did do "as they want" but to imagine it wouldn't have any effect at all in that direction was and is very naive in my opinion and I saw the evidence. The channel crossings and immigrant issue is something I'm out of my depth on and out of the Home Office and Farage I'm really not sure who is to be believed but I'm not sure why Farage would have access to definitive information, what position is he holding nowadays? I didn't mean to say that Cummings' action didn't have any effect at all BUT I don't think it had the effect that some people tried to argue. The trouble with political arguments is that people take a particular position, usually left or right. Labour or Tory and then HAVE to defend it. A main agenda has been " get the Tories / get Boris so Cummings was a godsend ... but whilst many people would rightly criticise Cummings and the way that it was handled it is my view that most people are more sensible than saying " He's done it and he's in government , so I'm going to do it".... I think most people realise that the virus is serious and try to stick to the rules. One thing I like about Farage is that he does not stick to the party line and so just argues what he believes ( I understand that in one sense that is easy for him because HE is the party/ the flip side is that the main concerns of the traditional parties is to toe the party line/ don't get caught out.....obviously he might make gaffs. Ely , I am also out of my depth on the Channel/migrant issue...we can only make judgments on the evidence as we see it. Seeing the channel from Farage's perspective, first of all he lives in Kent, I'm sure that gives you a different interest if if you were that close to the action. Secondly , as far as I know, I think he is a patriot and is concerned about what is happening to the UK in terms of culture, values, sovereignty , democracy....In many ways this would not have been an issue for politicians of the past, but is so today. Clearly he believes that there should be no illegal immigration and immigration should be strictly controlled. I don't think that is controversial. I'd imagine that he agrees with asylum but perhaps under stricter criteria....I have not checked what he believes about the offer of a home to people from Hong Kong but I'd imagine that he would be in favour. I believe that he genuinely believes in "Reform", hence the Reform party, Brexit having been achieved. I agree with him on that, particularly the abolition of the House of lords, First past the post and postal voting etc......obviously , at the moment, less attractive policies than others ( such as immigration)....but I think that he believes that things could change by the time of the next election....if Labour remain a chaotic busted flush and if the Tories fall out of favour..... a massive task as the system obviously favours Labour or Tory, party politicians....but then again membership of the EU wasn't an issue for the general public.....until it was....who knows.
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Post by elystokie on Feb 28, 2021 19:35:50 GMT
I think and thought that Boris sacrificed people lives by using the distraction, obviously there's degrees of harm but there was no need, just force Cummings to apologise or resign and it's over. I don't think everyone did do "as they want" but to imagine it wouldn't have any effect at all in that direction was and is very naive in my opinion and I saw the evidence. The channel crossings and immigrant issue is something I'm out of my depth on and out of the Home Office and Farage I'm really not sure who is to be believed but I'm not sure why Farage would have access to definitive information, what position is he holding nowadays? I didn't mean to say that Cummings' action didn't have any effect at all BUT I don't think it had the effect that some people tried to argue. The trouble with political arguments is that people take a particular position, usually left or right. Labour or Tory and then HAVE to defend it. A main agenda has been " get the Tories / get Boris so Cummings was a godsend ... but whilst many people would rightly criticise Cummings and the way that it was handled it is my view that most people are more sensible than saying " He's done it and he's in government , so I'm going to do it".... I think most people realise that the virus is serious and try to stick to the rules. One thing I like about Farage is that he does not stick to the party line and so just argues what he believes ( I understand that in one sense that is easy for him because HE is the party/ the flip side is that the main concerns of the traditional parties is to toe the party line/ don't get caught out.....obviously he might make gaffs. Ely , I am also out of my depth on the Channel/migrant issue...we can only make judgments on the evidence as we see it. Seeing the channel from Farage's perspective, first of all he lives in Kent, I'm sure that gives you a different interest if if you were that close to the action. Secondly , as far as I know, I think he is a patriot and is concerned about what is happening to the UK in terms of culture, values, sovereignty , democracy....In many ways this would not have been an issue for politicians of the past, but is so today. Clearly he believes that there should be no illegal immigration and immigration should be strictly controlled. I don't think that is controversial. I'd imagine that he agrees with asylum but perhaps under stricter criteria....I have not checked what he believes about the offer of a home to people from Hong Kong but I'd imagine that he would be in favour. I believe that he genuinely believes in "Reform", hence the Reform party, Brexit having been achieved. I agree with him on that, particularly the abolition of the House of lords, First past the post and postal voting etc......obviously , at the moment, less attractive policies than others ( such as immigration)....but I think that he believes that things could change by the time of the next election....if Labour remain a chaotic busted flush and if the Tories fall out of favour..... a massive task as the system obviously favours Labour or Tory, party politicians....but then again membership of the EU wasn't an issue for the general public.....until it was....who knows. It needs changing for sure, I just think I'd rather someone else was doing the changing, no idea who tho. Having said that, I don't trust any of those in charge at the moment and I'm not sure I'd trust the Labour lot much either and Starmer certainly doesn't inspire me. Looks like I'll be voting for the Green party if they're still around next time
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 19:50:40 GMT
It needs changing for sure, I just think I'd rather someone else was doing the changing, no idea who tho. Having said that, I don't trust any of those in charge at the moment and I'm not sure I'd trust the Labour lot much either and Starmer certainly doesn't inspire me. Looks like I'll be voting for the Green party if they're still around next time I think thst you've got a good point. I'm sure that at some time in the relatively near future Green issues will come to the fore, something thst Farage is weak on.....it will probably depend upon the extent to which people believe the " evidence " and of it changes the mood. I'm sure if we had some form of Proportional representation then the Greens would do better. My problem with them at the moment, those prominent people within Green movements seem to have other unrealistic and far our policies in other area.....as far as I am aware.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 28, 2021 20:39:18 GMT
What we COULD have done, unlike Labour and the Tories What we do now, try not to interefere, in the sense of we can solve all problems. Unfortunately I think that we are going to go through a period in history of turbulence and as much as you might not like it we need to look after our own , as most countries do BUT work as much as we can to support and build up developing countries, it won't happen overnight and when China, the environment and what is happening in North Africa/ Nigeria is thrown into the equation it doesn't look too good. And I think that we should try to move away from party politics in this country, I don't think the Left have worked out that they are always going to be the losers against the natural party of government. I may have asked this before - but are there any quotes from Nigel Farage opposing the Iraq war and Libyan interventions before they actually took place? I can only find stuff said in hindsight. I can't find any quotes from him at all, which I'm pretty sure means I'm looking in all the wrong places. All I've been able to find is that he abstained from voting on the EU Resolution relating to the Iraq war, and the other two UKIP MEPs in favour of the war. www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/07/eu.politics
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 20:55:35 GMT
What we COULD have done, unlike Labour and the Tories What we do now, try not to interefere, in the sense of we can solve all problems. Unfortunately I think that we are going to go through a period in history of turbulence and as much as you might not like it we need to look after our own , as most countries do BUT work as much as we can to support and build up developing countries, it won't happen overnight and when China, the environment and what is happening in North Africa/ Nigeria is thrown into the equation it doesn't look too good. And I think that we should try to move away from party politics in this country, I don't think the Left have worked out that they are always going to be the losers against the natural party of government. I may have asked this before - but are there any quotes from Nigel Farage opposing the Iraq war and Libyan interventions before they actually took place? I can only find stuff said in hindsight. I can't find any quotes from him at all, which I'm pretty sure means I'm looking in all the wrong places. All I've been able to find is that he abstained from voting on the EU Resolution relating to the Iraq war, and the other two UKIP MEPs in favour of the war. www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/07/eu.politicsI've honestly no idea Rip. But what I like about Farage, he gives his views clearly and straightforwardly and most of all he is a pragmatist.....Obviously a sitting target for those who simply want to shoot him down , usually to protect their own ( party political) loyalty. Also it is easy to take him out of context eg his support of Assad in the second video, or his attitude to overseas aid , seeking asylum etc.........other politicians equally give support to questionable people , but usually secretly. All I'm my opinion of course.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 28, 2021 21:15:51 GMT
I may have asked this before - but are there any quotes from Nigel Farage opposing the Iraq war and Libyan interventions before they actually took place? I can only find stuff said in hindsight. I can't find any quotes from him at all, which I'm pretty sure means I'm looking in all the wrong places. All I've been able to find is that he abstained from voting on the EU Resolution relating to the Iraq war, and the other two UKIP MEPs in favour of the war. www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/07/eu.politicsI've honestly no idea Rip. But what I like about Farage, he gives his views clearly and straightforwardly and most of all he is a pragmatist.....Obviously a sitting target for those who simply want to shoot him down , usually to protect their own ( party political) loyalty. Also it is easy to take him out of context eg his support of Assan in the second video, or his attitude to overseas aid , seeking asylum etc.........other politicians equally give support to questionable people , but usually secretly. All I'm my opinion of course. I was just looking to see if that statement that he "was opposed" to the Iraq war and that he "warned at the time" about Libya can be backed up with anything. With this one, it appears that there is no proof either way that what he is saying is ture. Although I have found a video of him in 2009 stating that UKIP were against the Iraq war, although the previous link from the Guardian suggests that the other two UKIP MEPs voted in favour of war (or, more accurately) voted for the resolution that said it was justifiable. Not sure why he said that, although it was a passing comment when asked about something else. This video suggest he was against action in Syria
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 21:22:20 GMT
I've honestly no idea Rip. But what I like about Farage, he gives his views clearly and straightforwardly and most of all he is a pragmatist.....Obviously a sitting target for those who simply want to shoot him down , usually to protect their own ( party political) loyalty. Also it is easy to take him out of context eg his support of Assan in the second video, or his attitude to overseas aid , seeking asylum etc.........other politicians equally give support to questionable people , but usually secretly. All I'm my opinion of course. I was just looking to see if that statement that he "was opposed" to the Iraq war and that he "warned at the time" about Libya can be backed up with anything. With this one, it appears that there is no proof either way that what he is saying is ture. Although I have found a video of him in 2009 stating that UKIP were against the Iraq war, although the previous link from the Guardian suggests that the other two UKIP MEPs voted in favour of war (or, more accurately) voted for the resolution that said it was justifiable. Not sure why he said that, although it was a passing comment when asked about something else. This video suggest he was against action in Syria Personally, I believe that he has consistently been against intervention, because a) It can do more harm than good b) there may be no end to the involvement. Being Farage of course people will go to great length to catch him out, always have, but I think he is just saying what he believes.....I have no reason to doubt him. In all the main parties there have been different views on major issues( we've only got to look at Corbyn's voting record ....BEFORE he had to actually lead the party, and Labour's perennial infighting), I don't see a problem with that.....UKIP , Farage is more relaxed ( realistic/ pragmatic) about it than most.....up to the point when he considers that it really matters
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 28, 2021 21:32:15 GMT
I've honestly no idea Rip. But what I like about Farage, he gives his views clearly and straightforwardly and most of all he is a pragmatist.....Obviously a sitting target for those who simply want to shoot him down , usually to protect their own ( party political) loyalty. Also it is easy to take him out of context eg his support of Assan in the second video, or his attitude to overseas aid , seeking asylum etc.........other politicians equally give support to questionable people , but usually secretly. All I'm my opinion of course. I was just looking to see if that statement that he "was opposed" to the Iraq war and that he "warned at the time" about Libya can be backed up with anything. With this one, it appears that there is no proof either way that what he is saying is ture. Although I have found a video of him in 2009 stating that UKIP were against the Iraq war, although the previous link from the Guardian suggests that the other two UKIP MEPs voted in favour of war (or, more accurately) voted for the resolution that said it was justifiable. Not sure why he said that, although it was a passing comment when asked about something else. This video suggest he was against action in Syria Graham Booth and Geffrey Titford voted for the actions against Iraq, Farage didn't turn up to vote...... EDIT I think you've seen that from one of your previous links sorry.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 28, 2021 21:40:10 GMT
I was just looking to see if that statement that he "was opposed" to the Iraq war and that he "warned at the time" about Libya can be backed up with anything. With this one, it appears that there is no proof either way that what he is saying is ture. Although I have found a video of him in 2009 stating that UKIP were against the Iraq war, although the previous link from the Guardian suggests that the other two UKIP MEPs voted in favour of war (or, more accurately) voted for the resolution that said it was justifiable. Not sure why he said that, although it was a passing comment when asked about something else. This video suggest he was against action in Syria Personally, I believe that he has consistently been against intervention, because a) It can do more harm than good b) there may be no end to the involvement. Being Farage of course people will go to great length to catch him out, always have, but I think he is just saying what he believes.....I have no reason to doubt him. In all the main parties there have been different views on major issues( we've only got to look at Corbyn's voting record ....BEFORE he had to actually lead the party, and Labour's perennial infighting), I don't see a problem with that.....UKIP , Farage is more relaxed ( realistic/ pragmatic) about it than most.....up to the point when he considers that it really matters The (albeit not very substantial) evidence suggests that UKIP were in favour of the Iraq war, given that two of their three MEPs voted for it. It's also possible they had no policy and let their MEPs vote as they wanted. For Libya it seems there is no evidence either way. I don't think checking the accuracy of his (or anyone's) statements is trying to catch him out, it's just checking that a politician is telling the truth. As has been stated earlier in this thread, they are very often lying so it's important to not just believe whatever they say without some evidence to back it up. I think you've misunderstood me in terms of Farage changing his mind. He's of course free to change his mind on any subject he wishes, and if he was initially behind the Iraq war and then changed his mind when he saw the consequences then that wouldn't be uncommon or anything unusual. I was just checking whether he was always anti-Iraq and Libyan intervention like he said, or if he was trying to rewrite historical fact. To use your Corbyn analogy, he was entitled to change his mind about (in this case) the EU but if he tried to convince everyone he's always been pro-EU he would rightly get fact-checked on it (and shown to be talking bollocks).
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 21:50:39 GMT
Personally, I believe that he has consistently been against intervention, because a) It can do more harm than good b) there may be no end to the involvement. Being Farage of course people will go to great length to catch him out, always have, but I think he is just saying what he believes.....I have no reason to doubt him. In all the main parties there have been different views on major issues( we've only got to look at Corbyn's voting record ....BEFORE he had to actually lead the party, and Labour's perennial infighting), I don't see a problem with that.....UKIP , Farage is more relaxed ( realistic/ pragmatic) about it than most.....up to the point when he considers that it really matters The (albeit not very substantial) evidence suggests that UKIP were in favour of the Iraq war, given that two of their three MEPs voted for it. It's also possible they had no policy and let their MEPs vote as they wanted. For Libya it seems there is no evidence either way. I don't think checking the accuracy of his (or anyone's) statements is trying to catch him out, it's just checking that a politician is telling the truth. As has been stated earlier in this thread, they are very often lying so it's important to not just believe whatever they say without some evidence to back it up. I think you've misunderstood me in terms of Farage changing his mind. He's of course free to change his mind on any subject he wishes, and if he was initially behind the Iraq war and then changed his mind when he saw the consequences then that wouldn't be uncommon or anything unusual. I was just checking whether he was always anti-Iraq and Libyan intervention like he said, or if he was trying to rewrite historical fact. To use your Corbyn analogy, he was entitled to change his mind about (in this case) the EU but if he tried to convince everyone he's always been pro-EU he would rightly get fact-checked on it (and shown to be talking bollocks). Rip , as far as I am aware Farage has consistently been against intervention in those wars , those clips that were posted consistently show it. Farage , as with other parties, had disagreements with fellow UKIP members on a range of issues, as do other parties( If the party voted in favour of the war on Iraq, it doesn't follow that all the members are in favour, UKIP in any case were a new party, largely single issue so could have bedfellows from across the political spectrum, but united on the same common issue( Hence, not UKIP, but Clare Fox, George Galloway and Farage were able to work together extremely well but poles apart on other issues....which does illustrate the problems with party politics). I think it is a clear case of trying to get Farage when all the evidence seems to say that he was against the wars. And there may have been other reason why Farage chose not to take part in EU voting.eg he did not want to acknowledge the role of the EU in respect of jurisdiction/ relationship with the UK. Is it a case of " we hate Farage, he's a horrible man , so he can't be right on this. And if the evidence says he was, he still wasn't because he doesn't agree with what I want on other things"
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 28, 2021 22:05:15 GMT
The (albeit not very substantial) evidence suggests that UKIP were in favour of the Iraq war, given that two of their three MEPs voted for it. It's also possible they had no policy and let their MEPs vote as they wanted. For Libya it seems there is no evidence either way. I don't think checking the accuracy of his (or anyone's) statements is trying to catch him out, it's just checking that a politician is telling the truth. As has been stated earlier in this thread, they are very often lying so it's important to not just believe whatever they say without some evidence to back it up. I think you've misunderstood me in terms of Farage changing his mind. He's of course free to change his mind on any subject he wishes, and if he was initially behind the Iraq war and then changed his mind when he saw the consequences then that wouldn't be uncommon or anything unusual. I was just checking whether he was always anti-Iraq and Libyan intervention like he said, or if he was trying to rewrite historical fact. To use your Corbyn analogy, he was entitled to change his mind about (in this case) the EU but if he tried to convince everyone he's always been pro-EU he would rightly get fact-checked on it (and shown to be talking bollocks). Rip , as far as I am aware Farage has consistently been against intervention in those wars , those clips that were posted consistently show it. Farage , as with other parties, had disagreements with fellow UKIP members on a range of issues, as do other parties( If the party voted in favour of the war on Iraq, it doesn't follow that all the members are in favour, UKIP in any case were a new party, largely single issue so could have bedfellows from across the political spectrum, but united on the same common issue( Hence, not UKIP, but Clare Fox, George Galloway and Farage were able to work together extremely well but poles apart on other issues....which does illustrate the problems with party politics). I think it is a clear case of trying to get Farage when all the evidence seems to say that he was against the wars. And there may have been other reason why Farage chose not to take part in EU voting. I think you're being a little sensitive on this. I'm only looking for evidence that he was anti-Iraq war and Libyan intervention. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that is trying to "get" him by looking into what he was saying at the actual time. I've made clear that evidence is pretty slim on the ground in terms of his opinion on Iraq, and is non-existent in terms of Libya. That makes it hard to be too sure either way, with only the UKIP Party's votes giving us an indication for Iraq. For Libya, he may have been against it or he might be lying when he says it was against it - there's not enough proof to come to any conclusion. When you say "all the evidence" suggest he was against wars in Libya and Iraq, which evidence are you talking about?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 22:18:40 GMT
Rip , as far as I am aware Farage has consistently been against intervention in those wars , those clips that were posted consistently show it. Farage , as with other parties, had disagreements with fellow UKIP members on a range of issues, as do other parties( If the party voted in favour of the war on Iraq, it doesn't follow that all the members are in favour, UKIP in any case were a new party, largely single issue so could have bedfellows from across the political spectrum, but united on the same common issue( Hence, not UKIP, but Clare Fox, George Galloway and Farage were able to work together extremely well but poles apart on other issues....which does illustrate the problems with party politics). I think it is a clear case of trying to get Farage when all the evidence seems to say that he was against the wars. And there may have been other reason why Farage chose not to take part in EU voting. I think you're being a little sensitive on this. I'm only looking for evidence that he was anti-Iraq war and Libyan intervention. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that is trying to "get" him by looking into what he was saying at the actual time. I've made clear that evidence is pretty slim on the ground in terms of his opinion on Iraq, and is non-existent in terms of Libya. That makes it hard to be too sure either way, with only the UKIP Party's votes giving us an indication for Iraq. For Libya, he may have been against it or he might be lying when he says it was against it - there's not enough proof to come to any conclusion. When you say "all the evidence" suggest he was against wars in Libya and Iraq, which evidence are you talking about? Not sensitive at all, just giving my view. The main evidence I have is what he is actually saying and has said ( for example in the videos posted) which seems entirely consistent with his other views. As I've said what others do and think in UKIP is not the same as Farage, particularly in a single issue party. I'd prefer to keep it simple, innocent until proven guilty, so I'm not embarking on a mission that Farage must be wrong on this so I'll find the evidence......if YOU find any let me know....but as hard as it is to stomach I think Farage was against those interventions.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 28, 2021 22:31:13 GMT
I think you're being a little sensitive on this. I'm only looking for evidence that he was anti-Iraq war and Libyan intervention. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that is trying to "get" him by looking into what he was saying at the actual time. I've made clear that evidence is pretty slim on the ground in terms of his opinion on Iraq, and is non-existent in terms of Libya. That makes it hard to be too sure either way, with only the UKIP Party's votes giving us an indication for Iraq. For Libya, he may have been against it or he might be lying when he says it was against it - there's not enough proof to come to any conclusion. When you say "all the evidence" suggest he was against wars in Libya and Iraq, which evidence are you talking about? Not sensitive at all, just giving my view. The main evidence I have is what he is actually saying and has said ( for example in the videos posted) which seems entirely consistent with his other views. As I've said what others do and think in UKIP is not the same as Farage, particularly in a single issue party. I'd prefer to keep it simple, innocent until proven guilty, so I'm not embarking on a mission that Farage must be wrong on this so I'll find the evidence......if YOU find any let me know....but as hard as it is to stomach I think Farage was against those interventions. I started with the question 'Is this true?' and not 'Farage must be wrong'. I'm still more than open to the possibility that it is true. As I've said before, there is little to no evidence either way. I guess you're happy to believe him based on that little to no evidence. I don't think there's really enough evidence to tell.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 28, 2021 22:38:12 GMT
Not sensitive at all, just giving my view. The main evidence I have is what he is actually saying and has said ( for example in the videos posted) which seems entirely consistent with his other views. As I've said what others do and think in UKIP is not the same as Farage, particularly in a single issue party. I'd prefer to keep it simple, innocent until proven guilty, so I'm not embarking on a mission that Farage must be wrong on this so I'll find the evidence......if YOU find any let me know....but as hard as it is to stomach I think Farage was against those interventions. I started with the question 'Is this true?' and not 'Farage must be wrong'. I'm still more than open to the possibility that it is true. As I've said before, there is little to no evidence either way. I guess you're happy to believe him based on that little to no evidence. I don't think there's really enough evidence to tell. No reason whatsoever to doubt him
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 28, 2021 22:40:07 GMT
I started with the question 'Is this true?' and not 'Farage must be wrong'. I'm still more than open to the possibility that it is true. As I've said before, there is little to no evidence either way. I guess you're happy to believe him based on that little to no evidence. I don't think there's really enough evidence to tell. No reason whatsoever to doubt him Other than the fact that he's a politician.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 1, 2021 8:45:32 GMT
I started with the question 'Is this true?' and not 'Farage must be wrong'. I'm still more than open to the possibility that it is true. As I've said before, there is little to no evidence either way. I guess you're happy to believe him based on that little to no evidence. I don't think there's really enough evidence to tell. No reason whatsoever to doubt him Despite there being little or no evidence to support what he claims, you've no reason to doubt him. He also claimed that a dinghy full of asylum seekers all tested positive for Covid-19. The Home Office completely refuted this. You had every reason to doubt the HO! Isn't that just the complete flipside of this..."Is it a case of " we hate Farage, he's a horrible man , so he can't be right on this. And if the evidence says he was, he still wasn't because he doesn't agree with what I want on other things"!
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