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Post by ashleyscfc on Oct 3, 2023 2:25:07 GMT
Given with £500m we could:
Install a north staffs VLR system same as Coventry (France have 28/Germany 59/UK have 9)
Have decent non polluting buses like the new ones in Manchester
Add info screens to most bus stops
Reopen Stoke to Leekbrook line (Fenton/Endon/Stockton Brook) inc to Alton Towers
Reopen Meir, Trentham, Etruria, Barlaston stations
But that will never happen…if they scrapped HS2 and announced half of that for us it would be extraordinary, we don’t even have an idea of a plan to move forward locally
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 3, 2023 7:42:38 GMT
It’s stuff like this that really angers me about the government, you could see from miles away this project was doomed and how much tax payers money has been spent on it so far? And for what? Get from London to Birmingham a bit quicker. Disgraceful mismanagement of the public’s hard earned money. I read this morning it isn’t going to central Birmingham. It isn’t going to central London either. So it will increase travel times between the parts of the two cities people actually want to go to. There needs to be an investigation into where the money is going. This has to be corruption. Why would you spend this much on something that is worse than the current line? |
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Oct 3, 2023 7:54:34 GMT
The biggest white elephant of our times in an era of a massive herd of white elephants and over budget fuck ups.
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Post by prettything on Oct 3, 2023 8:41:10 GMT
It’s stuff like this that really angers me about the government, you could see from miles away this project was doomed and how much tax payers money has been spent on it so far? And for what? Get from London to Birmingham a bit quicker. Disgraceful mismanagement of the public’s hard earned money. I read this morning it isn’t going to central Birmingham. It isn’t going to central London either. So it will increase travel times between the parts of the two cities people actually want to go to. There needs to be an investigation into where the money is going. This has to be corruption. Why would you spend this much on something that is worse than the current line? I live in Brum. The building started a few years ago for where the station is going to be.The station will be opposite Millennium point in the centre of town. Three minute walk from the Bullring and next to Moor Street station. London is another story, however! No idea if they are going ahead with Euston or not. |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 3, 2023 10:36:19 GMT
When HS2 was first mooted I was ambivalent as I didn't know enough to say if it be good or bad and personally wouldn't use it much if at all
If what was promised was delivered even 10%/20% over budget it would have been an achievement
As it progressed it was obvious even early on it was an out of control money pit
It has ended up an International embarrassment costing circa £100Bn to get from Birmingham to Wormwood Scrubs 10 minutes quicker
Embarrassing because the amount of track we do have has cost many multiples per mile than most of Europe, Asia or China can deliver on time.
At the top end its inadequate planning (Pun intended) and costing of the Project. Failure to appoint competent Management to oversee the Project (Ministers are only for Photo-ops) and continuous audit of the Project that is on track (again intended) It's basic Business Management
Recognising our inability to manage Infrastructure Projects
We subcontract out Neuclear Power Projects to the French
Our EV Battery capability to India/China - with huge subsidises
Our Car Manufacturer to Germany/France/Japan/India - with huge subsidises
Our Steel Industry to India - with huge subsidises
Our Rail Companies are "Run" by Primarily Foreign States or Investors - with Sweetheart Contracts that don't depend on providing a service
Our Water is provided and polluted by Primarily Foreign States and Investors - the Public Body set up to monitor performance has been neutered by savage Budget Cuts that it has become self regulating and reporting
Our Energy is provided Primarily by Foreign States and Investors - we dispensed with Energy storage capacity to buy at opportune times so are entirely dependent on the spot market
Is this any way to Run a Railway, never mind a Country
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Post by superjw on Oct 3, 2023 10:48:05 GMT
If you could pick one thing to sum up the sad state of affairs in this country, the embarrassing bottomless pit of money for rich mates in the name of pipe dreams which were never meant to be fulfilled whilst the majority struggle - this would be it.
We were not the industrial powerhouse we once were with this sort of government rule, that’s for sure. What’s more laughable is we pioneered railway development, yet we can’t even do that anymore
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Post by tuum on Oct 3, 2023 10:56:01 GMT
It’s stuff like this that really angers me about the government, you could see from miles away this project was doomed and how much tax payers money has been spent on it so far? And for what? Get from London to Birmingham a bit quicker. Disgraceful mismanagement of the public’s hard earned money. I read this morning it isn’t going to central Birmingham. It isn’t going to central London either. So it will increase travel times between the parts of the two cities people actually want to go to. There needs to be an investigation into where the money is going. This has to be corruption. Why would you spend this much on something that is worse than the current line? I spent 4 years working on the Taiwan High Speed Rail. None of the mai line stations were in the city centres. Most of them were 10-15km out of the city. One of my projects was the Terminus at the southern end of the line. This was in the northern suburbs of Kaohsiung about 10km from the centre... 20-30mins by taxi depending on traffic. The idea of the out of town stations was to regenerate new areas. These areas around the stn were owned by the rail corporation who woul then sell or lease blocks of land to businesses seeking to locate there. Haven't been back since it was built but I bet the areas around the new stations are now thriving. I will google map it and get back to you. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 3, 2023 11:21:04 GMT
I read this morning it isn’t going to central Birmingham. It isn’t going to central London either. So it will increase travel times between the parts of the two cities people actually want to go to. There needs to be an investigation into where the money is going. This has to be corruption. Why would you spend this much on something that is worse than the current line? I live in Brum. The building started a few years ago for where the station is going to be.The station will be opposite Millennium point in the centre of town. Three minute walk from the Bullring and next to Moor Street station. London is another story, however! No idea if they are going ahead with Euston or not. Thanks for correcting me. |
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Post by adri2008 on Oct 3, 2023 11:28:01 GMT
It’s stuff like this that really angers me about the government, you could see from miles away this project was doomed and how much tax payers money has been spent on it so far? And for what? Get from London to Birmingham a bit quicker. Disgraceful mismanagement of the public’s hard earned money. I never understood why it was sold on speed improvements which in this day and age of remote working, internet on trains etc is a complete farce. The case for capacity was a good one though in my opinion - it would have taken huge amounts of lorries off the roads. The project has just been very poorly managed and taken hostage by local interests. Building bat tunnels etc at huge costs - absolute madness. |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 3, 2023 12:21:30 GMT
I read this morning it isn’t going to central Birmingham. It isn’t going to central London either. So it will increase travel times between the parts of the two cities people actually want to go to. There needs to be an investigation into where the money is going. This has to be corruption. Why would you spend this much on something that is worse than the current line? I spent 4 years working on the Taiwan High Speed Rail. None of the mai line stations were in the city centres. Most of them were 10-15km out of the city. One of my projects was the Terminus at the southern end of the line. This was in the northern suburbs of Kaohsiung about 10km from the centre... 20-30mins by taxi depending on traffic. The idea of the out of town stations was to regenerate new areas. These areas around the stn were owned by the rail corporation who woul then sell or lease blocks of land to businesses seeking to locate there. Haven't been back since it was built but I bet the areas around the new stations are now thriving. I will google map it and get back to you. Personally I think the Taiwan elevated high speed train is fabulous gliding over the Countryside below. Previously road travel was an absolute nightmare. Like you I haven't been back for a few years but when I did I could get to Hsinchu in about 40 minutes or to Taichung in about an hour. You can connect with MRT at Banqiao or Nangang. I think there are Free Shuttle Buses, not sure. I realise it was completed 16 years ago. It took 8 years to complete a distance of 345Kms (212 miles) almost exactly the same distance as London to Manchester. It cost $15Bn Rumours are it will cost £100Bn to get half that distance to Birmingham |
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 3, 2023 14:06:32 GMT
I read this morning it isn’t going to central Birmingham. It isn’t going to central London either. So it will increase travel times between the parts of the two cities people actually want to go to. There needs to be an investigation into where the money is going. This has to be corruption. Why would you spend this much on something that is worse than the current line? I spent 4 years working on the Taiwan High Speed Rail. None of the mai line stations were in the city centres. Most of them were 10-15km out of the city. One of my projects was the Terminus at the southern end of the line. This was in the northern suburbs of Kaohsiung about 10km from the centre... 20-30mins by taxi depending on traffic. The idea of the out of town stations was to regenerate new areas. These areas around the stn were owned by the rail corporation who woul then sell or lease blocks of land to businesses seeking to locate there. Haven't been back since it was built but I bet the areas around the new stations are now thriving. I will google map it and get back to you. Your point is well made. There are major developments taking place around Birmingham as a consequence of the first section of HS2. www.hs2.org.uk/building-hs2/stations/curzon-street/#:~:text=It%20covers%20the%20area%20that,square%20metres%20of%20commercial%20development. There is also huge development at Arden Cross and this investment area, with Birmingham Airport and the National Exhibition Centre and other nearby locations, will make this area not just a UK major centre, but a world centre. It will also take some of the development strain off London, where scores of skyscrapers are being built/planned, but there is only so much construction industry capacity. ardencross.com/ardencross.com/at-the-heart-of-the-action/The section from Brum to Manchester is clearly proving to be a black hole for capital spending and the government are wise to question whether we are still on the right path, something repeated administrations have confirmed as correct, or should we being diverting resources to more urgent or quicker payback projects. They are in command of all the facts, but all experts have differing opinions. The pandemic and war in Ukraine are massive game changers. The former has driven up huge national debt, and the latter has driven up borrowing costs ; a double whammy! We have to review the national budget on what we can and cannot afford to do. PS This is just one example of one way the government may think is better to spend tax payers money on: www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/1028371/rolls-royce-urges-pace-as-mini-nuclear-shortlisting-welcomed-1028371.html |
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Post by tuum on Oct 3, 2023 16:15:25 GMT
I spent 4 years working on the Taiwan High Speed Rail. None of the mai line stations were in the city centres. Most of them were 10-15km out of the city. One of my projects was the Terminus at the southern end of the line. This was in the northern suburbs of Kaohsiung about 10km from the centre... 20-30mins by taxi depending on traffic. The idea of the out of town stations was to regenerate new areas. These areas around the stn were owned by the rail corporation who woul then sell or lease blocks of land to businesses seeking to locate there. Haven't been back since it was built but I bet the areas around the new stations are now thriving. I will google map it and get back to you. Personally I think the Taiwan elevated high speed train is fabulous gliding over the Countryside below. Previously road travel was an absolute nightmare. Like you I haven't been back for a few years but when I did I could get to Hsinchu in about 40 minutes or to Taichung in about an hour. You can connect with MRT at Banqiao or Nangang. I think there are Free Shuttle Buses, not sure. I realise it was completed 16 years ago. It took 8 years to complete a distance of 345Kms (212 miles) almost exactly the same distance as London to Manchester. It cost $15Bn Rumours are it will cost £100Bn to get half that distance to Birmingham $15Bn is about right. However, you get what you pay for. Construction standards were poor. It is safe and fit for purpose but not great quality. |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 3, 2023 16:36:37 GMT
I spent 4 years working on the Taiwan High Speed Rail. None of the mai line stations were in the city centres. Most of them were 10-15km out of the city. One of my projects was the Terminus at the southern end of the line. This was in the northern suburbs of Kaohsiung about 10km from the centre... 20-30mins by taxi depending on traffic. The idea of the out of town stations was to regenerate new areas. These areas around the stn were owned by the rail corporation who woul then sell or lease blocks of land to businesses seeking to locate there. Haven't been back since it was built but I bet the areas around the new stations are now thriving. I will google map it and get back to you. The section from Brum to Manchester is clearly proving to be a black hole for capital spending and the government are wise to question whether we are still on the right path, something repeated administrations have confirmed as correct, or should we being diverting resources to more urgent or quicker payback projects. They are in command of all the facts, but all experts have differing opinions. The section from Birmingham to Manchester has ONLY cost £2.3Bn so far which Government have admitted is irrecoverable if scrapped It's the complete mismanagement of the Wormwood Scrubs to Birmingham section being allowed to get out of Budget Control which is the problem - final amount yet to be disclosed It causes International reputational damage that UK is unable to build infrastructure projects and would make any future investor in other infrastructure projects wary that UK could discontinue projects half way through. |
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Post by soulsurvivor on Oct 3, 2023 17:12:02 GMT
You know what would have been a better solution, start in Manchester and go to Birmingham, start of levelling up and improve a section that needed improving. Then lessons learned, the project could have been completed to London or the existing track upgraded? One more point, I cam travel from Stafford to Euston in under 90 minutes, how fast do we want/ need to go?
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Post by riverman on Oct 4, 2023 7:28:10 GMT
You know what would have been a better solution, start in Manchester and go to Birmingham, start of levelling up and improve a section that needed improving. Then lessons learned, the project could have been completed to London or the existing track upgraded? One more point, I cam travel from Stafford to Euston in under 90 minutes, how fast do we want/ need to go? You can 100% guarantee that if it had been started in the North there's no way it would have been scrapped 70 miles off London. |
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Post by soulsurvivor on Oct 4, 2023 7:41:35 GMT
You are a 100% right and that I suppose is my point!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 4, 2023 8:01:49 GMT
This was a white elephant from day one - should never have been commissioned and the money spent on improving the existing system. I'm not convinced salvaging our reputation/saving face is a good enough reason to keep on burning money.
If anything good comes out of this it should be proper devolution (including tax raising powers) to the North and the Midlands. The levelling up agenda was never going to go anywhere while the decisions were being made in London. That and it was always just a patronising con trick to win red wall seats anyway.
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Post by Northy on Oct 4, 2023 8:23:59 GMT
It’s stuff like this that really angers me about the government, you could see from miles away this project was doomed and how much tax payers money has been spent on it so far? And for what? Get from London to Birmingham a bit quicker. Disgraceful mismanagement of the public’s hard earned money. It's not just getting from London to Birmingham quicker, it was about regenerating areas close by, relieving capacity on the existing lines, getting more freight off the the roads. Having seeing how it has worked in Italy recently, a dedicated high speed line and then the amount of new regional services and rolling stock on the existing lines, we should be able to do it here. The new local trains are very smart, plenty of dedicated cycle areas, buggy areas, higher level seats as well as lower level seats giving great views. www.fsitaliane.it/content/fsitaliane/en/innovation/transport-technology/the-new-regional-fleet.htmlThe new regional Rock and Pop trains are 95% recyclable with a 30% reduction in energy consumption. Compare those to some of the carts we still travel around in |
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Post by fullmetaljacket on Oct 4, 2023 8:45:11 GMT
Very conflicted on this.
When announced I didn't think it was needed. When Virgin were running the train it was 1 hour 30 from Stoke to London and a reliable service. Avanti seem to be a basket case of a company.
However the only thing dafter than building a not needed railway for me is to build a half finished railway.
Has a feel for me of Rishi taking the easy way out. Feed us more bollocks about how this will be better for the North and we should be happy and pleased with it.
Comes back to a point I made a few weeks ago every bloody project in this country is over budget and not done on time so surely these need to be taken into account the next time someone has a bright idea.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 4, 2023 9:42:52 GMT
It’s stuff like this that really angers me about the government, you could see from miles away this project was doomed and how much tax payers money has been spent on it so far? And for what? Get from London to Birmingham a bit quicker. Disgraceful mismanagement of the public’s hard earned money. It's not just getting from London to Birmingham quicker, it was about regenerating areas close by, relieving capacity on the existing lines, getting more freight off the the roads. Having seeing how it has worked in Italy recently, a dedicated high speed line and then the amount of new regional services and rolling stock on the existing lines, we should be able to do it here. The new local trains are very smart, plenty of dedicated cycle areas, buggy areas, higher level seats as well as lower level seats giving great views. www.fsitaliane.it/content/fsitaliane/en/innovation/transport-technology/the-new-regional-fleet.htmlThe new regional Rock and Pop trains are 95% recyclable with a 30% reduction in energy consumption. Compare those to some of the carts we still travel around in The money needed to do all those things has been blown on something that wasn't essential. They could have done all that by investing directly in those schemes. That money has now gone and even if the line is completed there won't be any left to do those other things. |
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Oct 4, 2023 10:05:56 GMT
I wonder how many of those constantly calling it an utter waste of money previously will now be outraged if part of it is cancelled due to costs .
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Post by wirralstokie1 on Oct 4, 2023 10:17:47 GMT
Assuming Labour are in power in 12-18 months time will they re-instate the project in full? I've heard a lot from the various regional Mayor's but not much from Sir Keir and his gang.
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Post by knype on Oct 4, 2023 10:24:05 GMT
Assuming Labour are in power in 12-18 months time will they re-instate the project in full? I've heard a lot from the various regional Mayor's but not much from Sir Keir and his gang. Starmer will swing which way the wind is blowing |
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Post by adri2008 on Oct 4, 2023 10:52:13 GMT
Assuming Labour are in power in 12-18 months time will they re-instate the project in full? I've heard a lot from the various regional Mayor's but not much from Sir Keir and his gang. Zero chance of them re-instating it. They'll probably be thankful of a bit of money to spend whilst using it as a political tool right now to bash the Tories. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 10:55:43 GMT
Assuming Labour are in power in 12-18 months time will they re-instate the project in full? I've heard a lot from the various regional Mayor's but not much from Sir Keir and his gang. Starmer will swing which way the wind is blowing Wanker of a PM hasn’t even announced officially yet, but let’s have a go at Starmer for not commenting on an unannouncement eh? Knob |
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Post by Northy on Oct 4, 2023 11:04:27 GMT
It's not just getting from London to Birmingham quicker, it was about regenerating areas close by, relieving capacity on the existing lines, getting more freight off the the roads. Having seeing how it has worked in Italy recently, a dedicated high speed line and then the amount of new regional services and rolling stock on the existing lines, we should be able to do it here. The new local trains are very smart, plenty of dedicated cycle areas, buggy areas, higher level seats as well as lower level seats giving great views. www.fsitaliane.it/content/fsitaliane/en/innovation/transport-technology/the-new-regional-fleet.htmlThe new regional Rock and Pop trains are 95% recyclable with a 30% reduction in energy consumption. Compare those to some of the carts we still travel around in The money needed to do all those things has been blown on something that wasn't essential. They could have done all that by investing directly in those schemes. That money has now gone and even if the line is completed there won't be any left to do those other things. How could they have done it ? |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 4, 2023 11:06:26 GMT
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Post by superjw on Oct 4, 2023 11:15:11 GMT
You only need to scratch the surface and look at how much contracting companies, which no doubt are used to a huge degree in HS2, are paid. The rates are eye watering and I can imagine invoices are never scrutinised. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 4, 2023 11:24:05 GMT
You only need to scratch the surface and look at how much contracting companies, which no doubt are used to a huge degree in HS2, are paid. The rates are eye watering and I can imagine invoices are never scrutinised. Totally agree. |
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Post by knype on Oct 4, 2023 11:31:46 GMT
Starmer will swing which way the wind is blowing Wanker of a PM hasn’t even announced officially yet, but let’s have a go at Starmer for not commenting on an unannouncement eh? Knob Ooooohhhhhhh, look at me ! |
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