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Post by spiderpuss on Mar 9, 2023 23:59:28 GMT
Crazy investment, and at a fraction of the cost we could have revitalised some of existing or moth-balled network, or as people requested better WIFI. When Longton/Longport can barely grab a lick of paint you despair. An idiotic and stupid project.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 22:08:01 GMT
“They admit it will cost jobs, that construction firms could go bust. They cannot rule out slashing high speed trains serving Stoke, Macclesfield and Stafford altogether."
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 14, 2023 22:22:22 GMT
It's cancelled, not delayed.
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Post by ravey123 on Jul 30, 2023 8:14:07 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66352286Well, who’d have thunk it. Not as if thousands or even millions of people have been protesting and telling the government it’s a bloody white elephant of a project. Common sense just tells you it isnt going to get done on budget or probably ever. Just think about all of the money wasted on this during years of austerity that (although difficult to prove) probably took peoples lives. Then there are all the lives wrecked by compulsory purchase of homes and land The whole thing is a complete scandal and those forcing this through to line their already bulging pockets should hang their heads in shame. However, they won’t care because their bank balances are already bursting.
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 30, 2023 11:17:12 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66352286Well, who’d have thunk it. Not as if thousands or even millions of people have been protesting and telling the government it’s a bloody white elephant of a project. Common sense just tells you it isnt going to get done on budget or probably ever. Just think about all of the money wasted on this during years of austerity that (although difficult to prove) probably took peoples lives. Then there are all the lives wrecked by compulsory purchase of homes and land The whole thing is a complete scandal and those forcing this through to line their already bulging pockets should hang their heads in shame. However, they won’t care because their bank balances are already bursting. This really is a scandal that in the end no-one will be held accountable for. So much of our money wasted and so much misery, but someone will be making money out of this for sure. Corruption at the highest level....again. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 30, 2023 12:15:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2023 13:48:41 GMT
We really are a wank species aren't we?
Why the fuck does a country of our size need a high speed railway line?
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Post by redstriper on Jul 30, 2023 15:21:06 GMT
The people who conceived, sanctioned and promoted and this colossal waste of public money are not fit to hold office, and should be held to account.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jul 30, 2023 16:04:31 GMT
We really are a wank species aren't we? Why the fuck does a country of our size need a high speed railway line? So we shouldn't have HS1 ? It was awful trundling through to the Tunnel at 60 mph until HS1 opened, thankfully you could run high speed on the continent. The Netherlands has a high speed line of just 125km and it's transformed getting to Amsterdam. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 30, 2023 16:45:09 GMT
We really are a wank species aren't we? Why the fuck does a country of our size need a high speed railway line? To get out of Birmingham as quickly as possible. |
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Post by andystokey on Jul 30, 2023 17:16:35 GMT
It's a pointless waste of money we can't even travel at basic speeds around the North West and Midlands between towns and cities.
Not to mention the total destruction of some of the nicest bits of Staffordshire countryside without a single stop in the whole county in Ph1, Ph2 and Ph2a. There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever.
If we had started at the Manchester end we would be getting benefit by now.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 30, 2023 18:44:24 GMT
It's a pointless waste of money we can't even travel at basic speeds around the North West and Midlands between towns and cities. Not to mention the total destruction of some of the nicest bits of Staffordshire countryside without a single stop in the whole county in Ph1, Ph2 and Ph2a. There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever. If we had started at the Manchester end we would be getting benefit by now. Seriously mate... it definitely feels like we could be seeing incredible benefits if a good chunk of that money had been invested into midlands-north rail. It's annoying. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2023 18:56:40 GMT
We really are a wank species aren't we? Why the fuck does a country of our size need a high speed railway line? So we shouldn't have HS1 ? It was awful trundling through to the Tunnel at 60 mph until HS1 opened, thankfully you could run high speed on the continent. The Netherlands has a high speed line of just 125km and it's transformed getting to Amsterdam. Personally, I'd rather leave our countryside and it's habitants as it was/they are, and if it takes me an extra hour or so to get where I want to go then so be it. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 30, 2023 19:26:56 GMT
So we shouldn't have HS1 ? It was awful trundling through to the Tunnel at 60 mph until HS1 opened, thankfully you could run high speed on the continent. The Netherlands has a high speed line of just 125km and it's transformed getting to Amsterdam. Personally, I'd rather leave our countryside and it's habitants as it was/they are, and if it takes me an extra hour or so to get where I want to go then so be it. I was in Reading when they announced the Elizabeth line and they started building new apartments and packing people into the centre. Those are people who now won't be buying bigger houses elsewhere, and who will probably use the roads a bit less... I love the countryside but sometimes think a bit of rail could save it from other building. |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jul 30, 2023 19:47:45 GMT
Personally, I'd rather leave our countryside and it's habitants as it was/they are, and if it takes me an extra hour or so to get where I want to go then so be it. I was in Reading when they announced the Elizabeth line and they started building new apartments and packing people into the centre. Those are people who now won't be buying bigger houses elsewhere, and who will probably use the roads a bit less... I love the countryside but sometimes think a bit of rail could save it from other building. The Elizabeth Line is doing rather well www.standard.co.uk/news/london/elizabeth-line-passengers-crossrail-tfl-paddington-abbey-wood-heathrow-b1079999.html |
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 30, 2023 20:12:28 GMT
That's lovely news. It's about the same distance as Liverpool-Manchester-Bradford-Leeds or Manc-Stoke-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Brum. Imagine what a northern Elizabeth line could do for those cities! |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jul 30, 2023 21:14:57 GMT
That's lovely news. It's about the same distance as Liverpool-Manchester-Bradford-Leeds or Manc-Stoke-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Brum. Imagine what a northern Elizabeth line could do for those cities! The other thing in that report is the fact that passenger numbers overall are strong, this despite the strikes and the decline in business travel. The East Coast mainline is leading the way and has done that with the ratio of business to leisure travel changing significantly in favour of leisure. The economy remains flat , but when there is growth there will be increased demand for travel . Capacity on rail on the southern section of West Coast route will be a major issue without HS2. That is without considering the potential for rail to carry more freight. The West Coast route cannot just be 'widened' without massive costs , houses being demolished etc. I realise I am taking a contrary view to most and I can completely understand people's despair at HS2. Costs were always going to overrun- particularly if you take decades to build it, and the approach taken of going for super-high speed means a straighter route with more damage to the countryside and higher costs than a slightly slower option etc. Unfortunately as its scope is being repeatedly reduced it does lose its intended effectiveness and it becomes increasingly difficult to justify, particularly when it has been so poorly managed as a project. The alternatives? More domestic air travel? Widening motorways and trunk routes (far more damaging to the countryside than HS2) for more trucks , and people in 2 -ton EV's to worry about finding a charging point en-route , the constant noise pollution of roads. Ultimately the UK population will need to decide how much travel it wants , and by what mode. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 31, 2023 0:45:36 GMT
I realise I am taking a contrary view to most and I can completely understand people's despair at HS2. Costs were always going to overrun- particularly if you take decades to build it, and the approach taken of going for super-high speed means a straighter route with more damage to the countryside and higher costs than a slightly slower option etc. Unfortunately as its scope is being repeatedly reduced it does lose its intended effectiveness and it becomes increasingly difficult to justify, particularly when it has been so poorly managed as a project That all sounds sensible to me TBF, I don't know enough to work out if HS2 is good or bad overall. It would just be nice to see something huge like the Elizabeth line done for the north/midlands too. |
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Post by andystokey on Jul 31, 2023 8:43:27 GMT
I realise I am taking a contrary view to most and I can completely understand people's despair at HS2. Costs were always going to overrun- particularly if you take decades to build it, and the approach taken of going for super-high speed means a straighter route with more damage to the countryside and higher costs than a slightly slower option etc. Unfortunately as its scope is being repeatedly reduced it does lose its intended effectiveness and it becomes increasingly difficult to justify, particularly when it has been so poorly managed as a project That all sounds sensible to me TBF, I don't know enough to work out if HS2 is good or bad overall. It would just be nice to see something huge like the Elizabeth line done for the north/midlands too. It needs stopping immediately. We have spent £10-20 billion so far and estimated another £150bn still to go in todays money and there is still no safe and viable terminus agreed at Euston after 10 years of consultation. The official watchdog has given the project a red rating and called the current project "unachievable".
"Project definition schedule, budget, quality and benefits at this stage do not appear manageable or resolvable"
" The project may need rescoping an it's overall viability reassessed"
These are the experts, listen to them for fucks sake. |
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Post by Northy on Jul 31, 2023 9:07:43 GMT
I realise I am taking a contrary view to most and I can completely understand people's despair at HS2. Costs were always going to overrun- particularly if you take decades to build it, and the approach taken of going for super-high speed means a straighter route with more damage to the countryside and higher costs than a slightly slower option etc. Unfortunately as its scope is being repeatedly reduced it does lose its intended effectiveness and it becomes increasingly difficult to justify, particularly when it has been so poorly managed as a project That all sounds sensible to me TBF, I don't know enough to work out if HS2 is good or bad overall. It would just be nice to see something huge like the Elizabeth line done for the north/midlands too. The cross Pennines should be a must, they have already watered it down from it's original plan. |
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 31, 2023 9:36:00 GMT
That's lovely news. It's about the same distance as Liverpool-Manchester-Bradford-Leeds or Manc-Stoke-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Brum. Imagine what a northern Elizabeth line could do for those cities! The other thing in that report is the fact that passenger numbers overall are strong, this despite the strikes and the decline in business travel. The East Coast mainline is leading the way and has done that with the ratio of business to leisure travel changing significantly in favour of leisure. The economy remains flat , but when there is growth there will be increased demand for travel . Capacity on rail on the southern section of West Coast route will be a major issue without HS2. That is without considering the potential for rail to carry more freight. The West Coast route cannot just be 'widened' without massive costs , houses being demolished etc. I realise I am taking a contrary view to most and I can completely understand people's despair at HS2. Costs were always going to overrun- particularly if you take decades to build it, and the approach taken of going for super-high speed means a straighter route with more damage to the countryside and higher costs than a slightly slower option etc. Unfortunately as its scope is being repeatedly reduced it does lose its intended effectiveness and it becomes increasingly difficult to justify, particularly when it has been so poorly managed as a project. The alternatives? More domestic air travel? Widening motorways and trunk routes (far more damaging to the countryside than HS2) for more trucks , and people in 2 -ton EV's to worry about finding a charging point en-route , the constant noise pollution of roads. Ultimately the UK population will need to decide how much travel it wants , and by what mode. I support your view. I am in favour of HS2. The benefits of HS2 have been poorly explained. I have posted at length on other HS2 threads so will be brief and list. The environmental damage of building and widening motorways is many times greater per mile than HS2. The HS2 cost is high to minimise environmental damage by measures such as extensive tunneling and preserving archeology. When it is finished there will be more trees and natural habitat than before the scheme started, another high cost. Increased population, aging population, more leasure time/reduced working week etc. means demand for travel will increase. Great play is made of reduced travel time, which is in my opinion overstated and only means stopping air travel from Manchester to London, but the real major benefit is that by moving express travel to a separate new line, releases the old Victoria line to be used to a far greater degree for slow travel, namely commuting, "going to town" for shopping, entertainment, etc., and for goods traffic moving lorries off the roads. The Elizabeth line benefits reproduced on a regional level. I could go on about other benefits such as exporting UK expertise in construction but will keep it short. news.railbusinessdaily.com/first-export-of-uk-built-trains-for-over-12-years-allows-bombardier-to-expand-manufacturing-capacity-in-derby/To export you need a healthy home market to cover fixed costs, so you can compete in the export market at marginal cost plus profit. britishsteel.co.uk/news/british-steel-secures-major-export-deal-with-largest-ever-order-for-rail-sleepers/ |
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Post by OldStokie on Jul 31, 2023 14:22:36 GMT
One of the most profligate and stupid decisions by any government was to build HS2 that I can recall. And all to save one hour on a journey from London to to the north.
OS.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 31, 2023 14:52:34 GMT
One of the most profligate and stupid decisions by any government was to build HS2 that I can recall. And all to save one hour on a journey from London to to the north. OS. OS on the original HS2  |
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 31, 2023 15:03:13 GMT
One of the most profligate and stupid decisions by any government was to build HS2 that I can recall. And all to save one hour on a journey from London to to the north. OS. Not sure how many residents of Crewe make day trips to Old Oak Common, but come 2045 those that do, can afford it and are still alive will have reason to celebrate. Meanwhile those of us who live in Staffordshire will have seen a swathe of our countryside trashed for no benefit to us whatsoever. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Jul 31, 2023 15:36:13 GMT
That all sounds sensible to me TBF, I don't know enough to work out if HS2 is good or bad overall. It would just be nice to see something huge like the Elizabeth line done for the north/midlands too. It needs stopping immediately. We have spent £10-20 billion so far and estimated another £150bn still to go in todays money and there is still no safe and viable terminus agreed at Euston after 10 years of consultation. The official watchdog has given the project a red rating and called the current project "unachievable".
"Project definition schedule, budget, quality and benefits at this stage do not appear manageable or resolvable"
" The project may need rescoping an it's overall viability reassessed"
These are the experts, listen to them for fucks sake. I just haven't looked into this enough to have a sensible opinion. "Rescoping" and "reassessed" sound really bad, but they don't confirm whether overall it'll be good or bad... Do they? 🤔 I'm seriously not arguing for the sake of it, just try not to have strong opinions on things I don't understand. |
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Post by raythesailor on Jul 31, 2023 15:51:50 GMT
Recently down in N Warwickshire,Coleshill, Coventry etc and the amount of work going on is enormous and must be costing a fortune.
Staffordshire has seen nothing yet.
If and it's a big IF it goes ahead there is going to be considerable disruption for several years.
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 31, 2023 16:24:52 GMT
HS2 was initiated by the last Labour government after years of studying the need.
It was reviewed by the Cameron government and decided to continue.
The Labour Party have said they are in support of HS2 including the East link to York which the present government have shelved.
The root cause of building a high speed route is not to chop a few minutes of the present travel time, its because the old Victorian route is overloaded* and we cannot keep building more and wider motorways. Do we want another M6/M6Toll or M1/A1M?
*By "overload" it is necessary to appreciate that no one wants to travel at night, and the roads are jammed to capacity at peak times morning and evening.
The options are:
1. Do nothing and let traffic congestion on road and rail get worse and worse.
2. Build more and more and wider and wider motorways.
3. Rebuild the old Victorian rail routes- deemed as impractical due to massive cost and disruption. Also not practicable to make high speed due to bends.
4. Build new routes - but also hugely expensive to minimise environmental damage.
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Post by Gawa on Jul 31, 2023 17:35:37 GMT
HS2 was initiated by the last Labour government after years of studying the need. It was reviewed by the Cameron government and decided to continue. The Labour Party have said they are in support of HS2 including the East link to York which the present government have shelved. The root cause of building a high speed route is not to chop a few minutes of the present travel time, its because the old Victorian route is overloaded* and we cannot keep build more and wider motorways. Do we want another M6/M6Toll or M1/A1M? *By "overload" it is necessary to appreciate that no one wants to travel at night, and the roads are jammed to capacity at peak times morning and evening. The options are: 1. Do nothing and let traffic congestion on road and rail get worse and worse. 2. Build more and more and wider and wider motorways. 3. Rebuild the old Victorian rail routes- deemed as impractical due to massive cost and disruption. Also not practicable to make high speed due to bends. 4. Build new routes - but also hugely expensive to minimise environmental damage. Spend the money in other areas where the benefits would be greater. This is a map of Ireland (focusing on NI bit here though) and the blue is our rail lines in 1906 compared to 2014 in red  This country is far too London centric as it is and as more and more money is invested in transport within London or transport to/from London, it means other areas continue to be neglected from much needed investment. We shouldn't be focusing on London all the time. Maybe if other areas of the country had better public transport then they'd get more private investment. |
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 31, 2023 18:02:59 GMT
HS2 was initiated by the last Labour government after years of studying the need. It was reviewed by the Cameron government and decided to continue. The Labour Party have said they are in support of HS2 including the East link to York which the present government have shelved. The root cause of building a high speed route is not to chop a few minutes of the present travel time, its because the old Victorian route is overloaded* and we cannot keep build more and wider motorways. Do we want another M6/M6Toll or M1/A1M? *By "overload" it is necessary to appreciate that no one wants to travel at night, and the roads are jammed to capacity at peak times morning and evening. The options are: 1. Do nothing and let traffic congestion on road and rail get worse and worse. 2. Build more and more and wider and wider motorways. 3. Rebuild the old Victorian rail routes- deemed as impractical due to massive cost and disruption. Also not practicable to make high speed due to bends. 4. Build new routes - but also hugely expensive to minimise environmental damage. Spend the money in other areas where the benefits would be greater. This is a map of Ireland (focusing on NI bit here though) and the blue is our rail lines in 1906 compared to 2014 in red This country is far too London centric as it is and as more and more money is invested in transport within London or transport to/from London, it means other areas continue to be neglected from much needed investment. We shouldn't be focusing on London all the time. Maybe if other areas of the country had better public transport then they'd get more private investment. You make a valid point but politicians depend on votes so they spend the money where the votes are. Unless it's on something unpopular like a nuclear power station. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2023 18:13:49 GMT
Looking to scrap the second phase? You couldn't make it up!
An idiotic, unaffordable, vanity project.
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