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Post by Northy on Jan 4, 2024 8:53:28 GMT
Toby Jones in an ITV (I think) drama about this on this week (again I think) Yeah. He plays a guy named Bates who has apparently refused an OBE, but Vennels since has her CBE. I saw Bates being interviewed on the TV recently, he confirmed that, and if the Government don't hold people to account then they will. |
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 4, 2024 10:10:30 GMT
Letter of Kevan Jones MP to the honours forfeiture committee - didn't even know there was such a thing. I hope he’s not the only MP writing a letter about this That letter is over rwo years old. Apparently without response. Darren Jones MP is involved with the statutory inquiry. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 4, 2024 10:33:58 GMT
Just an example of how utterly inept the Lib Dems were when they had a whiff of power during the coalition.....
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 4, 2024 11:23:42 GMT
Yeah. He plays a guy named Bates who has apparently refused an OBE, but Vennels since has her CBE. I saw Bates being interviewed on the TV recently, he confirmed that, and if the Government don't hold people to account then they will. I think that the longer this issue goes on, and the Covid-delayed inquiry as well as the dramatisation and other media programmes keep it in the public eye, then the greater the danger that it becomes more and more like a witch hunt against certain people, including Vennells. It also increases the negative publicity for the honours system and the "good chap" approach to political accountability. (In the absence of more information, Vennells appears more and more deluded or in denial about her own responsibility - I wonder what is at stake that prevented her from acknowledging her role and quietly returning her gong? She was a member of the clergy, for Christ's sake.) I admire Alan Bates and his supporters for their determination and tenacity but find it appalling that they have had to do this themselves. There is probably no hope for most of the SPMs to ever return to a "normal" life - this campaign has probably become the raison d^etre for many of them - I worry about it becoming an obsession, and that they won't no when to quit. |
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Post by salopstick on Jan 4, 2024 11:54:21 GMT
Just an example of how utterly inept the Lib Dems were when they had a whiff of power during the coalition..... If govt keep it at arms length why was there a postal affairs minister? the problem you have is MPs do not like to admit their mistakes |
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Post by Northy on Jan 4, 2024 14:25:54 GMT
Just an example of how utterly inept the Lib Dems were when they had a whiff of power during the coalition..... ? the problem you have is MPs do not like to admit their mistakes Post Office is publicly owned and the minister is the 1 shareholder I think. Royal Mail was sold off but not the post office? Didn't Joe Swinson follow Ed Davey in the role |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 4, 2024 14:34:11 GMT
Just an example of how utterly inept the Lib Dems were when they had a whiff of power during the coalition..... Yes terrible errors were made. At least Davey admits mistakes which is better than most MPs. I think you are harsh to blame this squarely on the lib dems. Of course they are partly to blame, but so are the governing party who were the tories, as well as senior officials in the post office at the time. Massive mistakes all round and it is innocent hard working people who suffer as a result. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 4, 2024 14:35:57 GMT
If govt keep it at arms length why was there a postal affairs minister? the problem you have is MPs do not like to admit their mistakes Post Office is publicly owned and the minister is the 1 shareholder I think. Royal Mail was sold off but not the post office? Didn't Joe Swinson follow Ed Davey in the role Yes. She just swallowed the Post Office line that Horizon was “a robust system” and that there was no grounds for an inquiry at the time. Vince Cable went one stage further, he claimed to not even know about it…… |
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Post by salopstick on Jan 4, 2024 14:50:17 GMT
Just an example of how utterly inept the Lib Dems were when they had a whiff of power during the coalition..... Yes terrible errors were made. At least Davey admits mistakes which is better than most MPs. I think you are harsh to blame this squarely on the lib dems. Of course they are partly to blame, but so are the governing party who were the tories, as well as senior officials in the post office at the time. Massive mistakes all round and it is innocent hard working people who suffer as a result. yep blame the tories for everything. Considering the time frame labour have their hands all over this as well. its not a party problem its an establishment problem In 1999, Post Office Counters Ltd[17] introduced a computer accounting system called Horizon,[18] developed by ICL (which in 2002 rebranded under the name of its Japanese owner, Fujitsu). From 2001,[19] the Post Office company (by then renamed Post Office Limited) was a subsidiary of Royal Mail Group.[20] On 1 April 2012, Post Office Ltd became independent of Royal Mail Group and was reorganised to become a subsidiary of Royal Mail Holdings,[21] with a separate management and board of directors.[22] By 2013, Horizon was used by at least 11,500 branches and was processing some six million transactions every day.[23][24] From 1999, sub-postmasters (SPMs) began reporting unexplained discrepancies and losses. The Post Office maintained that Horizon was "robust" and that none of the discrepancies was due to Horizon.[25] Some sub-postmasters unwilling or unable to make good the shortfalls were prosecuted by the Post Office for theft, false accounting and fraud. Between 1991 (prior to Horizon) and 2015, there were 918 successful prosecutions.[26][27] These were largely private prosecutions by the Post Office relying on IT evidence alone, without proof of criminal intent. Public prosecutions also occurred in Scotland, Northern Ireland and in the Crown Court. Some SPMs were persuaded by their own solicitors to plead guilty to false accounting, on being told the Post Office would drop theft charges. Once the Post Office had a criminal conviction, it would attempt to secure a Proceeds of Crime Act order against convicted sub-postmasters, allowing it to seize their assets and bankrupt them.[28] According to press reports, these actions by the Post Office caused the loss of dozens of jobs, bankruptcy, divorce, unwarranted prison sentences and one suicide.[29][30] Forensic accountant Second Sight's report of 2014 described the Horizon computer system as not fit for purpose, whilst the Post Office stated that "there is absolutely no evidence of any systemic issues with the computer system". The Post Office terminated the Initial Complaint Review and Mediation Scheme in 2015 and published a report clearing itself of any wrongdoing.[31] here is a decent overview of the whole affair en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal#:~:text=Crown%20Court,-R%20v%20Christopher&text=The%20cases%20were%20from%20magistrates,data%20was%20used%20in%20evidence.%22 |
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 4, 2024 14:53:53 GMT
Yes terrible errors were made. At least Davey admits mistakes which is better than most MPs. I think you are harsh to blame this squarely on the lib dems. Of course they are partly to blame, but so are the governing party who were the tories, as well as senior officials in the post office at the time. Massive mistakes all round and it is innocent hard working people who suffer as a result. yep blame the tories for everything. Considering the time frame labour have their hands all over this as well. its not a party problem its an establishment problem In 1999, Post Office Counters Ltd[17] introduced a computer accounting system called Horizon,[18] developed by ICL (which in 2002 rebranded under the name of its Japanese owner, Fujitsu). From 2001,[19] the Post Office company (by then renamed Post Office Limited) was a subsidiary of Royal Mail Group.[20] On 1 April 2012, Post Office Ltd became independent of Royal Mail Group and was reorganised to become a subsidiary of Royal Mail Holdings,[21] with a separate management and board of directors.[22] By 2013, Horizon was used by at least 11,500 branches and was processing some six million transactions every day.[23][24] From 1999, sub-postmasters (SPMs) began reporting unexplained discrepancies and losses. The Post Office maintained that Horizon was "robust" and that none of the discrepancies was due to Horizon.[25] Some sub-postmasters unwilling or unable to make good the shortfalls were prosecuted by the Post Office for theft, false accounting and fraud. Between 1991 (prior to Horizon) and 2015, there were 918 successful prosecutions.[26][27] These were largely private prosecutions by the Post Office relying on IT evidence alone, without proof of criminal intent. Public prosecutions also occurred in Scotland, Northern Ireland and in the Crown Court. Some SPMs were persuaded by their own solicitors to plead guilty to false accounting, on being told the Post Office would drop theft charges. Once the Post Office had a criminal conviction, it would attempt to secure a Proceeds of Crime Act order against convicted sub-postmasters, allowing it to seize their assets and bankrupt them.[28] According to press reports, these actions by the Post Office caused the loss of dozens of jobs, bankruptcy, divorce, unwarranted prison sentences and one suicide.[29][30] Forensic accountant Second Sight's report of 2014 described the Horizon computer system as not fit for purpose, whilst the Post Office stated that "there is absolutely no evidence of any systemic issues with the computer system". The Post Office terminated the Initial Complaint Review and Mediation Scheme in 2015 and published a report clearing itself of any wrongdoing.[31] here is a decent overview of the whole affair en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal#:~:text=Crown%20Court,-R%20v%20Christopher&text=The%20cases%20were%20from%20magistrates,data%20was%20used%20in%20evidence.%22 Perhaps reread what I wrote. I blame the lib dems and the tories and the post office officials. I don’t know enough of the history of this but from what you have written above, you are absolutely right that labour are also to blame. Certainly I do not blame the tories alone for this and I have never said that. |
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Post by maxplonk on Jan 4, 2024 18:15:02 GMT
Yes terrible errors were made. At least Davey admits mistakes which is better than most MPs. I think you are harsh to blame this squarely on the lib dems. Of course they are partly to blame, but so are the governing party who were the tories, as well as senior officials in the post office at the time. Massive mistakes all round and it is innocent hard working people who suffer as a result. yep blame the tories for everything. Considering the time frame labour have their hands all over this as well. its not a party problem its an establishment problem In 1999, Post Office Counters Ltd[17] introduced a computer accounting system called Horizon,[18] developed by ICL (which in 2002 rebranded under the name of its Japanese owner, Fujitsu). From 2001,[19] the Post Office company (by then renamed Post Office Limited) was a subsidiary of Royal Mail Group.[20] On 1 April 2012, Post Office Ltd became independent of Royal Mail Group and was reorganised to become a subsidiary of Royal Mail Holdings,[21] with a separate management and board of directors.[22] By 2013, Horizon was used by at least 11,500 branches and was processing some six million transactions every day.[23][24] From 1999, sub-postmasters (SPMs) began reporting unexplained discrepancies and losses. The Post Office maintained that Horizon was "robust" and that none of the discrepancies was due to Horizon.[25] Some sub-postmasters unwilling or unable to make good the shortfalls were prosecuted by the Post Office for theft, false accounting and fraud. Between 1991 (prior to Horizon) and 2015, there were 918 successful prosecutions.[26][27] These were largely private prosecutions by the Post Office relying on IT evidence alone, without proof of criminal intent. Public prosecutions also occurred in Scotland, Northern Ireland and in the Crown Court. Some SPMs were persuaded by their own solicitors to plead guilty to false accounting, on being told the Post Office would drop theft charges. Once the Post Office had a criminal conviction, it would attempt to secure a Proceeds of Crime Act order against convicted sub-postmasters, allowing it to seize their assets and bankrupt them.[28] According to press reports, these actions by the Post Office caused the loss of dozens of jobs, bankruptcy, divorce, unwarranted prison sentences and one suicide.[29][30] Forensic accountant Second Sight's report of 2014 described the Horizon computer system as not fit for purpose, whilst the Post Office stated that "there is absolutely no evidence of any systemic issues with the computer system". The Post Office terminated the Initial Complaint Review and Mediation Scheme in 2015 and published a report clearing itself of any wrongdoing.[31] here is a decent overview of the whole affair en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal#:~:text=Crown%20Court,-R%20v%20Christopher&text=The%20cases%20were%20from%20magistrates,data%20was%20used%20in%20evidence.%22 Perhaps it is an establishment problem. But it is a Tory administration which is still awarding contracts to Fujitsu. www.theregister.com/AMP/2023/04/18/fujitsu_gets_142_million_uk/ |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 4, 2024 21:14:42 GMT
Watching it now. What a superb actor Toby Jones is. Brilliant stuff
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Jan 4, 2024 22:20:21 GMT
Why aren’t the top brass at the Post Office locked up after watching that😡absolutely disgusting
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 4, 2024 22:50:10 GMT
Why aren’t the top brass at the Post Office locked up after watching that😡absolutely disgusting Oh I do hope so ... |
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Post by salopstick on Jan 4, 2024 23:04:18 GMT
I keep seeing petitions for her to lose her CBE
white noise
Get the petitions for criminal proceedings
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Post by Davef on Jan 4, 2024 23:10:30 GMT
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Post by Northy on Jan 5, 2024 10:23:09 GMT
He left there about 7 years ago though, he wouldn't have any say now in its programming would he ? Former CEO at the FA as well |
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Post by salopstick on Jan 5, 2024 13:40:45 GMT
He left there about 7 years ago though, he wouldn't have any say now in its programming would he ? Former CEO at the FA as well but some of his mates might |
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Post by Northy on Jan 5, 2024 14:55:30 GMT
He left there about 7 years ago though, he wouldn't have any say now in its programming would he ? Former CEO at the FA as well but some of his mates might who are his mates? |
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Post by salopstick on Jan 5, 2024 14:59:02 GMT
but some of his mates might who are his mates? i dont know but i assume if hes left itv he may have some mates there otherwise there is no reason why he isnt in the program |
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Post by felonious on Jan 5, 2024 18:53:21 GMT
Well the programme has flushed another 50 claimants out. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67894818This section sums up the horror perfectly.... "But there's a small handful of people who were convicted that have come forward, three in total at the moment, which is obviously a tiny number proportionate to those that are still out there. "And I think the common feature of these is totally unsurprising. It's people that have been so heavily damaged by [the] Post Office psychologically that they have been so fearful of coming forward and going through the process again." He also told the BBC that one of the three people that had been convicted has received inpatient psychiatric care. |
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Post by Orbs on Jan 6, 2024 9:22:01 GMT
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Post by elystokie on Jan 6, 2024 10:04:28 GMT
Best drama I've seen in a good while, absolutely superb, should be due a good few BAFTAs.
And as said before, Alan Bates (and the other leaders in this) deserve some sort of recognition for their heroic efforts.
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Post by deeside2 on Jan 6, 2024 10:53:07 GMT
We watched it and were totally astounded and thoroughly disgusted that these poor people had been treated so disgracefully right from the beginning, and then lied to again and again over the years, for something that was not their fault, and after they'd repeatedly contacted the Post Office asking for help.
As ever Toby Jones played a wonderful part and all the supporting actors perfectly captured the sense of disbelief, frustration, anger and helplessness that the real subpostmasters must have endured for so long.
Hopefully they won't have to wait too much longer for correct compensation. Those responsible must be brought to justice.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jan 6, 2024 10:59:50 GMT
We watched it and were totally astounded and thoroughly disgusted that these poor people had been treated so disgracefully right from the beginning, and then lied to again and again over the years, for something that was not their fault, and after they'd repeatedly contacted the Post Office asking for help. As ever Toby Jones played a wonderful part and all the supporting actors perfectly captured the sense of disbelief, frustration, anger and helplessness that the real subpostmasters must have endured for so long. Hopefully they won't have to wait too much longer for correct compensation. Those responsible must be brought to justice. And our ever increasing reliance on AI is only going to bring more and more cases of injustice like this in the future. Banking and taxation errors and the likes. It'll be scary stuff when the finger gets pointed at ourselves for something we have little ability to resolve against the "infallible" machine/computer. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jan 6, 2024 11:14:19 GMT
They knew in 2001, that Horizon was "a bag of shit!"
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jan 6, 2024 12:38:13 GMT
They knew in 2001, that Horizon was "a bag of shit!" Fucking scandalous. Heads need to roll and serious compo paid to those that have had to suffer the stress, shame and indignity of being convicted of crimes they didn't committ. Indeed I'd argue that if it could be proved people in senior management knew these convictions were unsound then they should be looking at prison themselves. I mean how the fook could you sleep at night knowing innocent people are doing bird. Absolutely awful. |
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 6, 2024 12:56:26 GMT
I'm puzzled why those involved are not suing Fujitsu. Surely they're as guilty as anybody.
OS.
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Post by elystokie on Jan 6, 2024 13:10:02 GMT
I'm puzzled why those involved are not suing Fujitsu. Surely they're as guilty as anybody. OS. I was reading somewhere that they also fucked up on something with the NHS and cost them £12 billion. There's something horribly amiss at that company. |
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Post by felonious on Jan 6, 2024 13:26:36 GMT
They knew in 2001, that Horizon was "a bag of shit!" Fucking scandalous. Heads need to roll and serious compo paid to those that have had to suffer the stress, shame and indignity of being convicted of crimes they didn't committ. Indeed I'd argue that if it could be proved people in senior management knew these convictions were unsound then they should be looking at prison themselves. I mean how the fook could you sleep at night knowing innocent people are doing bird. Absolutely awful. Unfortunately we all know how the system works there's an insurmountable amount of long grass to get through and small people to be sacrificed before it gets anywhere near the people who should have dealt with this. It's gone through the hands of the Conservative, Labour and Libdem parties, involves the Post Office and Fujitsu and none of these want any immediate bad publicity well at least until the real culprits have retired and are elderly and suffering from finger pointed early onset dementia. |
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