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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 22, 2019 13:11:56 GMT
A little bit worrying that we're just summarily dismissing the notion of any overseas signings. That's presumably what Jones wants, but again, any hopes that we have any kind of scouting network who might be able to sniff out the kind of gems Norwich and others have done just seems entirely forlorn doesn't it? The Oatcake is drawing to a close but Woodbine Wrightwat has a new job running Stoke's recruitment. |
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Post by melbournestokie21 on Jun 22, 2019 13:24:18 GMT
Tony Scholes gets a lot of hate.
Ive dished it out a fair bit as well but other than the last 2 years, hes right weve had 10 years almost of overachieving. Looking at it in context and in comparison to others in football, for middle sized club hes not done that bad.
Other than clubs jumping divisions like bournemouth etc. Can anyone name a team as stable and consistently in consistent enough to maintain mid table status in the prem over 10 years or so. Southhampton probably being the only viable comparison but theyve only done it now for 5/6ish and flirted with relegation big time last year.
Now I understand the main argument to that is the teams success is down to players, managers etc. But if it is indeed the main focus and blame spot.
Surely Scholes then is absolved from the last 2 years of shit being largely attributed to him.
Looking at it rationally, keeping in mind were not being run by a tyrant who wants financial game for the club. I wouldnt say hes done that bad of a job in all honesty. No we havent set the world alight but what they and he has delivered is consistency in most aspects.
In the times of go big or bust, I really wouldnt say he (presuming he is responsible for a lot of decisions) has done a bad job overall but quite a good one for a while. Not without the cock-ups signings wise and other things, again assuming hes to blame. But overall the bigger picture isnt nearly as bad as whats been painted, in terms of how to run a football club these days anyhow.
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Post by fraybentos on Jun 22, 2019 13:25:26 GMT
I hate the quote “might step up” |
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Post by scfcno1fan on Jun 22, 2019 13:26:51 GMT
I hate the quote “might step up” Thought exactly the same. Needs to be more ‘we are confident will’ not ‘might’. |
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jun 22, 2019 14:47:23 GMT
I hate the quote “might step up” Thought exactly the same. Needs to be more ‘we are confident will’ not ‘might’. Even the chief exec isn't convinced. |
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jun 22, 2019 14:53:10 GMT
I'm sure that players join us on the 30th June / 1st July when wages end from their previous club. Contract terms and conditions have been agreed. The new players may have sighed that they would like to join us on the 1st July. They players don't become ours until then. It's not stopped us announcing free transfers before. Fletcher, Sidwell, Diouf |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 22, 2019 14:53:39 GMT
Tony Scholes gets a lot of hate. Ive dished it out a fair bit as well but other than the last 2 years, hes right weve had 10 years almost of overachieving. Looking at it in context and in comparison to others in football, for middle sized club hes not done that bad. Other than clubs jumping divisions like bournemouth etc. Can anyone name a team as stable and consistently in consistent enough to maintain mid table status in the prem over 10 years or so. Southhampton probably being the only viable comparison but theyve only done it now for 5/6ish and flirted with relegation big time last year. Now I understand the main argument to that is the teams success is down to players, managers etc. But if it is indeed the main focus and blame spot. Surely Scholes then is absolved from the last 2 years of shit being largely attributed to him. Looking at it rationally, keeping in mind were not being run by a tyrant who wants financial game for the club. I wouldnt say hes done that bad of a job in all honesty. No we havent set the world alight but what they and he has delivered is consistency in most aspects. In the times of go big or bust, I really wouldnt say he (presuming he is responsible for a lot of decisions) has done a bad job overall but quite a good one for a while. Not without the cock-ups signings wise and other things, again assuming hes to blame. But overall the bigger picture isnt nearly as bad as whats been painted, in terms of how to run a football club these days anyhow. As this board is all about discussion, debate and personal opinions I’ll take this opportunity to put forward several counter points; 1. It could be argued that we “over achieved” in the first two/three seasons (not 10 seasons) after which we were a well established mid table EPL club. 2. Is the “last two years” comment your own recollection, or from the CEO’s own memory loss as recorded in the Sentinel. The problems were quite evident to the majority 3.5 years ago. 3. The CEO introduced a change of policy in the recruitment of players by the employment of a Technical Director of Football who by the way IMHO was not experienced enough to establish and effectively manage a recruitment process. Check his age/experience at December 2012. 4. The management and implementation of the recruitment of players by the time we were relegated following the appointment of the Technical Director of Football was by and large extremely poor and this was a major contributor to our demise. If you believe that the CEO hasn’t done a bad job, fair enough and you’re opinion is accepted. My opinion won’t change though. Here’s hoping that NJ will prove to be as successful as TP and we witness a speedy return to the EPL. |
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Post by blackpoolred on Jun 22, 2019 14:58:13 GMT
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 22, 2019 14:59:02 GMT
Tony Scholes gets a lot of hate. Ive dished it out a fair bit as well but other than the last 2 years, hes right weve had 10 years almost of overachieving. Looking at it in context and in comparison to others in football, for middle sized club hes not done that bad. Other than clubs jumping divisions like bournemouth etc. Can anyone name a team as stable and consistently in consistent enough to maintain mid table status in the prem over 10 years or so. Southhampton probably being the only viable comparison but theyve only done it now for 5/6ish and flirted with relegation big time last year. Now I understand the main argument to that is the teams success is down to players, managers etc. But if it is indeed the main focus and blame spot. Surely Scholes then is absolved from the last 2 years of shit being largely attributed to him. Looking at it rationally, keeping in mind were not being run by a tyrant who wants financial game for the club. I wouldnt say hes done that bad of a job in all honesty. No we havent set the world alight but what they and he has delivered is consistency in most aspects. In the times of go big or bust, I really wouldnt say he (presuming he is responsible for a lot of decisions) has done a bad job overall but quite a good one for a while. Not without the cock-ups signings wise and other things, again assuming hes to blame. But overall the bigger picture isnt nearly as bad as whats been painted, in terms of how to run a football club these days anyhow. As this board is all about discussion, debate and personal opinions I’ll take this opportunity to put forward several counter points; 1. It could be argued that we “over achieved” in the first two/three seasons (not 10 seasons) after which we were a well established mid table EPL club. 2. Is the “last two years” comment your own recollection, or from the CEO’s own memory loss as recorded in the Sentinel. The problems were quite evident to the majority 3.5 years ago. 3. The CEO introduced a change of policy in the recruitment of players by the employment of a Technical Director of Football who by the way IMHO was not experienced enough to establish and effectively manage a recruitment process. Check his age/experience at December 2012. 4. The management and implementation of the recruitment of players by the time we were relegated following the appointment of the Technical Director of Football was by and large extremely poor and this was a major contributor to our demise. If you believe that the CEO hasn’t done a bad job, fair enough and you’re opinion is accepted. My opinion won’t change though. Here’s hoping that NJ will prove to be as successful as TP and we witness a speedy return to the EPL. I still think the idea that recruitment changed dramatically post 2013 is overplayed. We went from having a manager who was shrewd in the transfer market until he was given real money to spend and lost the plot to a manager (and transfer team)who were shrewdish in the transfer market until they were given real money to spend and then lost the plot. |
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Post by rivival on Jun 22, 2019 15:01:33 GMT
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Post by melbournestokie21 on Jun 22, 2019 15:03:46 GMT
Tony Scholes gets a lot of hate. Ive dished it out a fair bit as well but other than the last 2 years, hes right weve had 10 years almost of overachieving. Looking at it in context and in comparison to others in football, for middle sized club hes not done that bad. Other than clubs jumping divisions like bournemouth etc. Can anyone name a team as stable and consistently in consistent enough to maintain mid table status in the prem over 10 years or so. Southhampton probably being the only viable comparison but theyve only done it now for 5/6ish and flirted with relegation big time last year. Now I understand the main argument to that is the teams success is down to players, managers etc. But if it is indeed the main focus and blame spot. Surely Scholes then is absolved from the last 2 years of shit being largely attributed to him. Looking at it rationally, keeping in mind were not being run by a tyrant who wants financial game for the club. I wouldnt say hes done that bad of a job in all honesty. No we havent set the world alight but what they and he has delivered is consistency in most aspects. In the times of go big or bust, I really wouldnt say he (presuming he is responsible for a lot of decisions) has done a bad job overall but quite a good one for a while. Not without the cock-ups signings wise and other things, again assuming hes to blame. But overall the bigger picture isnt nearly as bad as whats been painted, in terms of how to run a football club these days anyhow. As this board is all about discussion, debate and personal opinions I’ll take this opportunity to put forward several counter points; 1. It could be argued that we “over achieved” in the first two/three seasons (not 10 seasons) after which we were a well established mid table EPL club. 2. Is the “last two years” comment your own recollection, or from the CEO’s own memory loss as recorded in the Sentinel. The problems were quite evident to the majority 3.5 years ago. 3. The CEO introduced a change of policy in the recruitment of players by the employment of a Technical Director of Football who by the way IMHO was not experienced enough to establish and effectively manage a recruitment process. Check his age/experience at December 2012. 4. The management and implementation of the recruitment of players by the time we were relegated following the appointment of the Technical Director of Football was by and large extremely poor and this was a major contributor to our demise. If you believe that the CEO hasn’t done a bad job, fair enough and you’re opinion is accepted. My opinion won’t change though. Here’s hoping that NJ will prove to be as successful as TP and we witness a speedy return to the EPL. I'm not denying that there has been massive fuck ups. But my logic looking at it, stripping away all anger is comparison. Comparison is the only real tool to a club like us and I cant muster up any club other then southhampton in terms of consistency. Arguments could be made for leicester though they crashed and burned and teams like bournemouth and burnley its to early to tell. For a club of our size, ive battled against the idea of the glass ceiling and what not to. But I dont see any other route other than chucking money at it. Its not a bad thing to want to push on but that shouldnt taint the work youve done to get there. I think last season as a club they realized they fkd up, and went against their principles of shrewdness by chucking money at it. You cant say they didnt and dont try however. The above and beyond of it all is we dont know who is calling the shots? Manager, owner, scholes. But from the outside objectively speaking if scholes is responsible for all it seems, balance it with the consistency that we did have for a time that many clubs aspire to and dream of. Both in our division and a few in the prem |
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Post by liathroid on Jun 22, 2019 18:23:48 GMT
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jun 22, 2019 19:34:07 GMT
“We are fully aware of what the rules are and we are assessing what we can and can’t do within them.” I would have thought the assessing would have been done end of last season and we would now be in a fully assessed position. |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 22, 2019 21:36:21 GMT
As this board is all about discussion, debate and personal opinions I’ll take this opportunity to put forward several counter points; 1. It could be argued that we “over achieved” in the first two/three seasons (not 10 seasons) after which we were a well established mid table EPL club. 2. Is the “last two years” comment your own recollection, or from the CEO’s own memory loss as recorded in the Sentinel. The problems were quite evident to the majority 3.5 years ago. 3. The CEO introduced a change of policy in the recruitment of players by the employment of a Technical Director of Football who by the way IMHO was not experienced enough to establish and effectively manage a recruitment process. Check his age/experience at December 2012. 4. The management and implementation of the recruitment of players by the time we were relegated following the appointment of the Technical Director of Football was by and large extremely poor and this was a major contributor to our demise. If you believe that the CEO hasn’t done a bad job, fair enough and you’re opinion is accepted. My opinion won’t change though. Here’s hoping that NJ will prove to be as successful as TP and we witness a speedy return to the EPL. I still think the idea that recruitment changed dramatically post 2013 is overplayed. We went from having a manager who was shrewd in the transfer market until he was given real money to spend and lost the plot to a manager (and transfer team)who were shrewdish in the transfer market until they were given real money to spend and then lost the plot. Value to the club, resale value, where are they now From January 2013 Shea Butland Bardsley Bony Gudietti Fletcher Joselu Bojan Muniesa Given Berahino Wimmer Imbula Wollschied Shaqiri Arnautivic Assaidi Afellay Allen Sobhi Grant Haugarrd Van Ginkel Johnson Indi Teixeira Sidwell Diouf Moses Agudelo Odemwingie Ireland Jese Pennant (new contract) Pieters Tymon Choupo Moting Zouma |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 22, 2019 21:40:14 GMT
I still think the idea that recruitment changed dramatically post 2013 is overplayed. We went from having a manager who was shrewd in the transfer market until he was given real money to spend and lost the plot to a manager (and transfer team)who were shrewdish in the transfer market until they were given real money to spend and then lost the plot. Value to the club, resale value, where are they now From January 2013 Shea Butland Bardsley Bony Gudietti Fletcher Joselu Bojan Muniesa Given Berahino Wimmer Imbula Wollschied Shaqiri Arnautivic Assaidi Afellay Allen Sobhi Grant Haugarrd Van Ginkel Johnson Indi Teixeira Sidwell Diouf Moses Agudelo Odemwingie Ireland Jese Pennant (new contract) Pieters Tymon Choupo Moting Zouma Again though, the majority of those were manager led, just like those of the pre-2013 system. And if you look at our transfer windows between summer 2011 and January 2013, few of those players actually made much of an impression under the manager that signed them. And that’s around 11-12 players. |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 22, 2019 22:36:31 GMT
Value to the club, resale value, where are they now From January 2013 Shea Butland Bardsley Bony Gudietti Fletcher Joselu Bojan Muniesa Given Berahino Wimmer Imbula Wollschied Shaqiri Arnautivic Assaidi Afellay Allen Sobhi Grant Haugarrd Van Ginkel Johnson Indi Teixeira Sidwell Diouf Moses Agudelo Odemwingie Ireland Jese Pennant (new contract) Pieters Tymon Choupo Moting Zouma Again though, the majority of those were manager led, just like those of the pre-2013 system. And if you look at our transfer windows between summer 2011 and January 2013, few of those players actually made much of an impression under the manager that signed them. And that’s around 11-12 players. The process that was introduced in December 2012 was the most significant factor in our relegation. Simply consider the cost of the above in transfer fees, signing on fees, agent fees and wages etc. Then consider their value to the overall success of the club, repayment in professional terms and where are they now. Try to isolate individual opinion about each individual players and IMHO there is a pattern of cumulative and significant failure in the recruitment process. A process that was introduced by the CEO and supposedly managed by a highly paid Technical Director of Football and of course supported by a fully complicit Manager. |
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jun 22, 2019 22:48:35 GMT
Value to the club, resale value, where are they now From January 2013 Shea Butland Bardsley Bony Gudietti Fletcher Joselu Bojan Muniesa Given Berahino Wimmer Imbula Wollschied Shaqiri Arnautivic Assaidi Afellay Allen Sobhi Grant Haugarrd Van Ginkel Johnson Indi Teixeira Sidwell Diouf Moses Agudelo Odemwingie Ireland Jese Pennant (new contract) Pieters Tymon Choupo Moting Zouma Again though, the majority of those were manager led, just like those of the pre-2013 system. And if you look at our transfer windows between summer 2011 and January 2013, few of those players actually made much of an impression under the manager that signed them. And that’s around 11-12 players. That’s a tough list to read especially as by my maths collectively we watched them 900 times ! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2019 23:14:21 GMT
I still think the idea that recruitment changed dramatically post 2013 is overplayed. We went from having a manager who was shrewd in the transfer market until he was given real money to spend and lost the plot to a manager (and transfer team)who were shrewdish in the transfer market until they were given real money to spend and then lost the plot. Value to the club, resale value, where are they now From January 2013 Shea Butland Bardsley Bony Gudietti Fletcher Joselu Bojan Muniesa Given Berahino Wimmer Imbula Wollschied Shaqiri Arnautivic Assaidi Afellay Allen Sobhi Grant Haugarrd Van Ginkel Johnson Indi Teixeira Sidwell Diouf Moses Agudelo Odemwingie Ireland Jese Pennant (new contract) Pieters Tymon Choupo Moting Zouma Fuck me, that's a depressing list of shit. Bar about 3/4 players it goes to show why we are where we are now. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 22, 2019 23:27:38 GMT
Again though, the majority of those were manager led, just like those of the pre-2013 system. And if you look at our transfer windows between summer 2011 and January 2013, few of those players actually made much of an impression under the manager that signed them. And that’s around 11-12 players. The process that was introduced in December 2012 was the most significant factor in our relegation. Simply consider the cost of the above in transfer fees, signing on fees, agent fees and wages etc. Then consider their value to the overall success of the club, repayment in professional terms and where are they now. Try to isolate individual opinion about each individual players and IMHO there is a pattern of cumulative and significant failure in the recruitment process. A process that was introduced by the CEO and supposedly managed by a highly paid Technical Director of Football and of course supported by a fully complicit Manager. Again, most of the poor signings were spearheaded by the manager, just as the myriad poor signings in the row year period before the new structure’s introduction was. The most damning thing you can say about it is that it made no difference. |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 22, 2019 23:28:31 GMT
Value to the club, resale value, where are they now From January 2013 Shea Butland Bardsley Bony Gudietti Fletcher Joselu Bojan Muniesa Given Berahino Wimmer Imbula Wollschied Shaqiri Arnautivic Assaidi Afellay Allen Sobhi Grant Haugarrd Van Ginkel Johnson Indi Teixeira Sidwell Diouf Moses Agudelo Odemwingie Ireland Jese Pennant (new contract) Pieters Tymon Choupo Moting Zouma Fuck me, that's a depressing list of shit. Bar about 3/4 players it goes to show why we are where we are now. Facts are facts however people want to hide and shovel shite in different directions. I really don’t understand how the family didn’t step in and “clip a few wings” before the inevitable occurred. A disastrous recruitment process. Who was the architect, champion and overall manager? |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 23, 2019 7:28:33 GMT
Fuck me, that's a depressing list of shit. Bar about 3/4 players it goes to show why we are where we are now. Facts are facts however people want to hide and shovel shite in different directions. I really don’t understand how the family didn’t step in and “clip a few wings” before the inevitable occurred. A disastrous recruitment process. Who was the architect, champion and overall manager? What would you have done in January 2013, out of interest? |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 23, 2019 7:34:52 GMT
Facts are facts however people want to hide and shovel shite in different directions. I really don’t understand how the family didn’t step in and “clip a few wings” before the inevitable occurred. A disastrous recruitment process. Who was the architect, champion and overall manager? What would you have done in January 2013, out of interest? I wouldn’t employed Cartwright in December 2012. The January 2013 is simply the first Window following his appointment |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 23, 2019 7:37:48 GMT
What would you have done in January 2013, out of interest? I wouldn’t employed Cartwright in December 2012. The January 2013 is simply the first Window following his appointment Right, so does that mean you’d have just left things exactly as they were, or would you have changed the structure or brought in a different one to try and improve a recruitment process that was itself struggling before that time? Do you think we wouldn’t have signed the players we did without the structure or Cartwright? |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 23, 2019 7:46:11 GMT
I wouldn’t employed Cartwright in December 2012. The January 2013 is simply the first Window following his appointment Right, so does that mean you’d have just left things exactly as they were, or would you have changed the structure or brought in a different one to try and improve a recruitment process that was itself struggling before that time? Do you think we wouldn’t have signed the players we did without the structure or Cartwright? If the club led by its CEO felt it was beneficial to implement a change in direction and policy that’s their prerogative IMHO if that was the case as in any business you hire the most suitably qualified and experienced person you can to manage that change. I don’t believe the choice of Cartwright was correct, that based on his age and experience at December 2012. |
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Post by philb on Jun 23, 2019 7:48:07 GMT
What would you have done in January 2013, out of interest? I wouldn’t employed Cartwright in December 2012. The January 2013 is simply the first Window following his appointment If not Cartwright it would have been somebody else as that’s the way the club decided to go with a Technical Director. And that decision would have obviously come from boardroom level. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 23, 2019 7:53:38 GMT
Right, so does that mean you’d have just left things exactly as they were, or would you have changed the structure or brought in a different one to try and improve a recruitment process that was itself struggling before that time? Do you think we wouldn’t have signed the players we did without the structure or Cartwright? If the club led by its CEO felt it was beneficial to implement a change in direction and policy that’s their prerogative IMHO if that was the case as in any business you hire the most suitably qualified and experienced person you can to manage that change. I don’t believe the choice of Cartwright was correct, that based on his age and experience at December 2012. So again, do you think Mark Hughes wouldn’t have signed the players he did, good and bad, without that change? Do you think Gary Rowett wouldn’t? |
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Post by Godo on Jun 23, 2019 7:54:12 GMT
Does the "process" recognise the desperate need for a left back and destructive holding midfielder?? Jones said he had 3 names for each key position and that he wanted the 20 in place (2 for each outfield position) by pre season. Either we are undertaking the negotiations in absolute secret or we aren't where we need to be. Hardly any of the shit has been moved on. The "lesson learned" seems to be that we are picking up British free transfers rather than foreign players with the wrong character but I see no systematic process to build the balanced squad we need. That list of signings earlier in this thread is, 3/4 players aside, embarrassing. I'm not panicking but can we really trust those who made the mess in the first place to sort the problem?
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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Jun 23, 2019 8:01:21 GMT
I wouldn’t employed Cartwright in December 2012. The January 2013 is simply the first Window following his appointment If not Cartwright it would have been somebody else as that’s the way the club decided to go with a Technical Director. And that decision would have obviously come from boardroom level. I don’t think the ideas a bad one. The big mistake was who they chose. If we’d got in a real expert or a figurehead respected in football then we’d be a lot better placed. We chose an ex Leek goalkeeper. |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 23, 2019 8:07:02 GMT
If the club led by its CEO felt it was beneficial to implement a change in direction and policy that’s their prerogative IMHO if that was the case as in any business you hire the most suitably qualified and experienced person you can to manage that change. I don’t believe the choice of Cartwright was correct, that based on his age and experience at December 2012. So again, do you think Mark Hughes wouldn’t have signed the players he did, good and bad, without that change? Do you think Gary Rowett wouldn’t? I’m not arguing about the rationale behind a change in direction, policy, process etc. IMHO Cartwright was not the person to manage that change. Mark Hughes was the architect of, or fully complicit in every transfer during his tenure at the club. If you want a further comment on Mark Hughes check out his previous at QPR. Was there no recruitment “red flag” on his appointment? Gary Rowett? Why not add Nathan Jones? Both of whom had/have supposedly benefited from “hindsight” and very costly “lessons learned” |
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Post by Pugsley on Jun 23, 2019 8:15:34 GMT
So again, do you think Mark Hughes wouldn’t have signed the players he did, good and bad, without that change? Do you think Gary Rowett wouldn’t? I’m not arguing about the rationale behind a change in direction, policy, process etc. IMHO Cartwright was not the person to manage that change. Mark Hughes was the architect of, or fully complicit in every transfer during his tenure at the club. If you want a further comment on Mark Hughes check out his previous at QPR. Was there no recruitment “red flag” on his appointment? Gary Rowett? Why not add Nathan Jones? Both of whom had/have supposedly benefited from “hindsight” and very costly “lessons learned” We would never employ any manager ever if you go on transfer records. The issues for me are limited scouting and our apparent weakness negotiating transfer fees and contracts. We could do worse than putting Fletcher in the DoF job - at least he knows the game at a high level and would put in the effort. |
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