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Post by harryburrows on Jun 23, 2019 8:20:54 GMT
Does the "process" recognise the desperate need for a left back and destructive holding midfielder?? Jones said he had 3 names for each key position and that he wanted the 20 in place (2 for each outfield position) by pre season. Either we are undertaking the negotiations in absolute secret or we aren't where we need to be. Hardly any of the shit has been moved on. The "lesson learned" seems to be that we are picking up British free transfers rather than foreign players with the wrong character but I see no systematic process to build the balanced squad we need. That list of signings earlier in this thread is, 3/4 players aside, embarrassing. I'm not panicking but can we really trust those who made the mess in the first place to sort the problem? I don't think stoke are in a position to attract top players even by our new low standards , the lesson learned is possible get your shit for free rather than paying £ 20 mil for it |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 23, 2019 8:33:24 GMT
So again, do you think Mark Hughes wouldn’t have signed the players he did, good and bad, without that change? Do you think Gary Rowett wouldn’t? I’m not arguing about the rationale behind a change in direction, policy, process etc. IMHO Cartwright was not the person to manage that change. Mark Hughes was the architect of, or fully complicit in every transfer during his tenure at the club. If you want a further comment on Mark Hughes check out his previous at QPR. Was there no recruitment “red flag” on his appointment? Gary Rowett? Why not add Nathan Jones? Both of whom had/have supposedly benefited from “hindsight” and very costly “lessons learned” The mistake wasn’t appointing Hughes, who actually did very well for 2-3 seasons. It was in not getting rid sooner. I didn’t add Jones because he’s only been here five minutes and hasn’t had a full window yet. If he is set on ignoring the foreign market completely however, I think that’s very narrow and short sighted. |
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Post by gingerninja on Jun 23, 2019 8:44:54 GMT
I agree that we have often neglected home grown lower league players, but there has to be a balance and to ignore the foreign leagues is very short sighted.
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 23, 2019 8:46:06 GMT
I’m not arguing about the rationale behind a change in direction, policy, process etc. IMHO Cartwright was not the person to manage that change. Mark Hughes was the architect of, or fully complicit in every transfer during his tenure at the club. If you want a further comment on Mark Hughes check out his previous at QPR. Was there no recruitment “red flag” on his appointment? Gary Rowett? Why not add Nathan Jones? Both of whom had/have supposedly benefited from “hindsight” and very costly “lessons learned” The mistake wasn’t appointing Hughes, who actually did very well for 2-3 seasons. It was in not getting rid sooner. I didn’t add Jones because he’s only been here five minutes and hasn’t had a full window yet. If he is set on ignoring the foreign market completely however, I think that’s very narrow and short sighted. It's true enough to say Hughes should have gone sooner than he did but that's with the benefit of hind sight . The chairman was never going to sack him after a poor 4 th season . Although the signs were there in season 3 . |
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Post by wilcopotter on Jun 23, 2019 8:46:52 GMT
I hate the quote “might step up” Thought exactly the same. Needs to be more ‘we are confident will’ not ‘might’. If they don’t we really could be stuck where we are, or worse, for a long time. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 23, 2019 8:50:57 GMT
The mistake wasn’t appointing Hughes, who actually did very well for 2-3 seasons. It was in not getting rid sooner. I didn’t add Jones because he’s only been here five minutes and hasn’t had a full window yet. If he is set on ignoring the foreign market completely however, I think that’s very narrow and short sighted. It's true enough to say Hughes should have gone sooner than he did but that's with the benefit of hind sight . The chairman was never going to sack him after a poor 4 th season . Although the signs were there in season 3 . I don’t think it’s massively with the benefit of hindsight. He should probably have gone at the end of his fourth season but he certainly should’ve gone before January of his final one. |
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 23, 2019 8:53:46 GMT
It's true enough to say Hughes should have gone sooner than he did but that's with the benefit of hind sight . The chairman was never going to sack him after a poor 4 th season . Although the signs were there in season 3 . I don’t think it’s massively with the benefit of hindsight. He should probably have gone at the end of his fourth season but he certainly should’ve gone before January of his final one. Possibly by November but they wasted the whole January window anyway |
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Post by WorkingclassHero on Jun 23, 2019 8:54:30 GMT
Hmm
Not announcing a signings, mystery friendlies.
Is this some new master marketing strategy, or is the IT guy on holiday or something. Whole new levels of craziness
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 23, 2019 9:00:27 GMT
I don’t think it’s massively with the benefit of hindsight. He should probably have gone at the end of his fourth season but he certainly should’ve gone before January of his final one. Possibly by November but they wasted the whole January window anyway Yeah, if he’d gone by November, at least whoever replaced him would’ve got a full window. |
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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Jun 23, 2019 9:20:08 GMT
I agree that we have often neglected home grown lower league players, but there has to be a balance and to ignore the foreign leagues is very short sighted. This. It’s a big world and we need to be proactive and not lazy in respect to our scouting. As you say needs to be a balance. |
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Post by cousindupree on Jun 23, 2019 9:32:16 GMT
I’m not arguing about the rationale behind a change in direction, policy, process etc. IMHO Cartwright was not the person to manage that change. Mark Hughes was the architect of, or fully complicit in every transfer during his tenure at the club. If you want a further comment on Mark Hughes check out his previous at QPR. Was there no recruitment “red flag” on his appointment? Gary Rowett? Why not add Nathan Jones? Both of whom had/have supposedly benefited from “hindsight” and very costly “lessons learned” The mistake wasn’t appointing Hughes, who actually did very well for 2-3 seasons. It was in not getting rid sooner. I didn’t add Jones because he’s only been here five minutes and hasn’t had a full window yet. If he is set on ignoring the foreign market completely however, I think that’s very narrow and short sighted. When Jones was appointed Rob i suggested that he wouldn't go near the foreign market, you weren't convinced. That now seems to be the case. Let's face it he only knows champ div 1 and div 2 and I would expect him to have quickly sussed out that the recruitment team isn't fit for purpose. It's a bit of naivety from him because at this level and of course the Premier League overseas recruits are very much part of the make up of a good squad. In the championship a sprinkling of foreign talent, coupled with some hungry ambitious lower league players and some astute loans delivers promotion. It's more than a bit worrying that Jones has decided that 2 of the above are not for him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2019 9:38:32 GMT
Hmm Not announcing a signings, mystery friendlies. Is this some new master marketing strategy, or is the IT guy on holiday or something. Whole new levels of craziness We have an IT guy?!? |
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Post by RAF on Jun 23, 2019 9:41:39 GMT
Tony Scholes gets a lot of hate. Ive dished it out a fair bit as well but other than the last 2 years, hes right weve had 10 years almost of overachieving. Looking at it in context and in comparison to others in football, for middle sized club hes not done that bad. Other than clubs jumping divisions like bournemouth etc. Can anyone name a team as stable and consistently in consistent enough to maintain mid table status in the prem over 10 years or so. Southhampton probably being the only viable comparison but theyve only done it now for 5/6ish and flirted with relegation big time last year. Now I understand the main argument to that is the teams success is down to players, managers etc. But if it is indeed the main focus and blame spot. Surely Scholes then is absolved from the last 2 years of shit being largely attributed to him. Looking at it rationally, keeping in mind were not being run by a tyrant who wants financial game for the club. I wouldnt say hes done that bad of a job in all honesty. No we havent set the world alight but what they and he has delivered is consistency in most aspects. In the times of go big or bust, I really wouldnt say he (presuming he is responsible for a lot of decisions) has done a bad job overall but quite a good one for a while. Not without the cock-ups signings wise and other things, again assuming hes to blame. But overall the bigger picture isnt nearly as bad as whats been painted, in terms of how to run a football club these days anyhow. As this board is all about discussion, debate and personal opinions I’ll take this opportunity to put forward several counter points; 1. It could be argued that we “over achieved” in the first two/three seasons (not 10 seasons) after which we were a well established mid table EPL club. 2. Is the “last two years” comment your own recollection, or from the CEO’s own memory loss as recorded in the Sentinel. The problems were quite evident to the majority 3.5 years ago. 3. The CEO introduced a change of policy in the recruitment of players by the employment of a Technical Director of Football who by the way IMHO was not experienced enough to establish and effectively manage a recruitment process. Check his age/experience at December 2012. 4. The management and implementation of the recruitment of players by the time we were relegated following the appointment of the Technical Director of Football was by and large extremely poor and this was a major contributor to our demise. If you believe that the CEO hasn’t done a bad job, fair enough and you’re opinion is accepted. My opinion won’t change though. Here’s hoping that NJ will prove to be as successful as TP and we witness a speedy return to the EPL. Just to pick you up on your own standards what exactly does this have to do with TP? You have pointed out time and time again that he has been gone for some time and we have had 4 managers since he left! I see it's ok to mention him when you choose to though? It's fairly fucking hypocritical don't you think? H |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 23, 2019 9:43:57 GMT
The mistake wasn’t appointing Hughes, who actually did very well for 2-3 seasons. It was in not getting rid sooner. I didn’t add Jones because he’s only been here five minutes and hasn’t had a full window yet. If he is set on ignoring the foreign market completely however, I think that’s very narrow and short sighted. When Jones was appointed Rob i suggested that he wouldn't go near the foreign market, you weren't convinced. That now seems to be the case. Let's face it he only knows champ div 1 and div 2 and I would expect him to have quickly sussed out that the recruitment team isn't fit for purpose. It's a bit of naivety from him because at this level and of course the Premier League overseas recruits are very much part of the make up of a good squad. In the championship a sprinkling of foreign talent, coupled with some hungry ambitious lower league players and some astute loans delivers promotion. It's more than a bit worrying that Jones has decided that 2 of the above are not for him. You do appear to be right CD, but that wasn’t a given at the time. Just because a manager has only managed at a certain level doesn’t in and of itself mean that’s all he knows about. I agree it is worrying if we’re closing our minds to both loans and the foreign market. |
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Post by Pugsley on Jun 23, 2019 9:56:45 GMT
When Jones was appointed Rob i suggested that he wouldn't go near the foreign market, you weren't convinced. That now seems to be the case. Let's face it he only knows champ div 1 and div 2 and I would expect him to have quickly sussed out that the recruitment team isn't fit for purpose. It's a bit of naivety from him because at this level and of course the Premier League overseas recruits are very much part of the make up of a good squad. In the championship a sprinkling of foreign talent, coupled with some hungry ambitious lower league players and some astute loans delivers promotion. It's more than a bit worrying that Jones has decided that 2 of the above are not for him. You do appear to be right CD, but that wasn’t a given at the time. Just because a manager has only managed at a certain level doesn’t in and of itself mean that’s all he knows about. I agree it is worrying if we’re closing our minds to both loans and the foreign market. He's got a Spanish coach hasn't he? Also I thought he had spent time abroad and said he was aware of the 'foreign market'? I could be wrong, although there is no reason whatsoever the club shouldn't be aware of all players nowadays, especially one with our resources. We're either bone idle or breathtakingly arrogant. |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 23, 2019 10:47:36 GMT
As this board is all about discussion, debate and personal opinions I’ll take this opportunity to put forward several counter points; 1. It could be argued that we “over achieved” in the first two/three seasons (not 10 seasons) after which we were a well established mid table EPL club. 2. Is the “last two years” comment your own recollection, or from the CEO’s own memory loss as recorded in the Sentinel. The problems were quite evident to the majority 3.5 years ago. 3. The CEO introduced a change of policy in the recruitment of players by the employment of a Technical Director of Football who by the way IMHO was not experienced enough to establish and effectively manage a recruitment process. Check his age/experience at December 2012. 4. The management and implementation of the recruitment of players by the time we were relegated following the appointment of the Technical Director of Football was by and large extremely poor and this was a major contributor to our demise. If you believe that the CEO hasn’t done a bad job, fair enough and you’re opinion is accepted. My opinion won’t change though. Here’s hoping that NJ will prove to be as successful as TP and we witness a speedy return to the EPL. Just to pick you up on your own standards what exactly does this have to do with TP? You have pointed out time and time again that he has been gone for some time and we have had 4 managers since he left! I see it's ok to mention him when you choose to though? It's fairly fucking hypocritical don't you think? H Not hypocritical at all. NJ is the present and TP is the past. Similarities exist where both have/had the desire to get promoted from the EFL to the EPL. Listening to NJ he says many things that are similar in content, or reflect the comments of TP in relation to the type of squad/first team that he is trying to build. If NJ delivers the same level of success which I hope he does we’ll be back in the EPL. Today’s comment from the club whereby recruitment will be focused on the U.K. is another similarity. Apologies if you misunderstood. |
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Post by juiceandbits on Jun 23, 2019 10:53:34 GMT
I don't see the benefit on Scholes coming out and say this. I'd actually like to ask him how he thinks these comments make our non-British players feel welcome within the squad. It's an unnecessary statement that didn't need to be made and could have simply been 'Nathan Jones wants to the best players that fit into his philosophy - British or not'. Simple as that.
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Post by Absolution on Jun 23, 2019 11:00:36 GMT
I don't see the benefit on Scholes coming out and say this. I'd actually like to ask him how he thinks these comments make our non-British players feel welcome within the squad. It's an unnecessary statement that didn't need to be made and could have simply been 'Nathan Jones wants to the best players that fit into his philosophy - British or not'. Simple as that. It's at least informative to the fans, which is not something the club excel at. The players themselves will know from Jones' attitude towards them whether or not they're really wanted. I'd imagine a large percentage aren't. |
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Post by cousindupree on Jun 23, 2019 11:14:14 GMT
To be fair to Scholes he is only repeating what Jones has already said i.e he prefers UK /Irish players rather than overseas. Also of course he doesn't fancy the loan market.
I would be interested in understanding his stance against foreign and loans. It rather flies in the face of many of the more successful clubs recruitment strategy.
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Post by juiceandbits on Jun 23, 2019 11:18:37 GMT
I don't see the benefit on Scholes coming out and say this. I'd actually like to ask him how he thinks these comments make our non-British players feel welcome within the squad. It's an unnecessary statement that didn't need to be made and could have simply been 'Nathan Jones wants to the best players that fit into his philosophy - British or not'. Simple as that. It's at least informative to the fans, which is not something the club excel at. The players themselves will know from Jones' attitude towards them whether or not they're really wanted. I'd imagine a large percentage aren't. Yeah that's a fair point but we don't know that. It's just created more questions; late Nathan speak about his recruitment. |
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Post by Absolution on Jun 23, 2019 11:24:41 GMT
It's at least informative to the fans, which is not something the club excel at. The players themselves will know from Jones' attitude towards them whether or not they're really wanted. I'd imagine a large percentage aren't. Yeah that's a fair point but we don't know that. It's just created more questions; late Nathan speak about his recruitment. Although over the past year or so the CEO has been accused of being extremely quiet, of disappearing while we struggled. Everything is scrutinised to death these days to find fault (I'm as guilty as anyone of this, but it's not always helpful). |
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Post by crapslinger on Jun 23, 2019 11:59:23 GMT
The process that was introduced in December 2012 was the most significant factor in our relegation. Simply consider the cost of the above in transfer fees, signing on fees, agent fees and wages etc. Then consider their value to the overall success of the club, repayment in professional terms and where are they now. Try to isolate individual opinion about each individual players and IMHO there is a pattern of cumulative and significant failure in the recruitment process. A process that was introduced by the CEO and supposedly managed by a highly paid Technical Director of Football and of course supported by a fully complicit Manager. Again, most of the poor signings were spearheaded by the manager, just as the myriad poor signings in the row year period before the new structure’s introduction was. The most damning thing you can say about it is that it made no difference. The majority were signed off by the board which includes the CEO, are you saying they have no accountability for the shit players we have signed since 2012 ? it's easy and lazy to put all the blame for piss poor recruitment on to the manager whichever patsy it was at the time, would BET 365 run in this fashion I think not. |
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Post by RAF on Jun 23, 2019 12:25:03 GMT
Just to pick you up on your own standards what exactly does this have to do with TP? You have pointed out time and time again that he has been gone for some time and we have had 4 managers since he left! I see it's ok to mention him when you choose to though? It's fairly fucking hypocritical don't you think? H Not hypocritical at all. NJ is the present and TP is the past. Similarities exist where both have/had the desire to get promoted from the EFL to the EPL. Listening to NJ he says many things that are similar in content, or reflect the comments of TP in relation to the type of squad/first team that he is trying to build. If NJ delivers the same level of success which I hope he does we’ll be back in the EPL. Today’s comment from the club whereby recruitment will be focused on the U.K. is another similarity. Apologies if you misunderstood. Oh no I understand only too well. It's fine mention TP in any type of positive light regardless, but if it's anything negative even with discussions of similarities then it's a heinous crime. I get it , you love the capped one and I'm sure you will always be grateful. Personally I rather hope NJ emulates Waddington where success is being rated and not on some misread loyalty to man who does not care one jot about Stoke City. H |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 23, 2019 12:34:09 GMT
Again, most of the poor signings were spearheaded by the manager, just as the myriad poor signings in the row year period before the new structure’s introduction was. The most damning thing you can say about it is that it made no difference. The majority were signed off by the board which includes the CEO, are you saying they have no accountability for the shit players we have signed since 2012 ? it's easy and lazy to put all the blame for piss poor recruitment on to the manager whichever patsy it was at the time, would BET 365 run in this fashion I think not. Of course they have some accountability, it’s a transfer team. But it’s driven by the manager. The vast majority of the signings we’ve made good and bad have been their picks. You back your manager or you sack him. If a manager had earmarked someone and the other two had blocked it, and that player had gone onto score 20 goals for someone else, do you think you’d have kept quiet about that or shrugged your shoulders? |
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Post by mattador78 on Jun 23, 2019 12:41:12 GMT
Let’s be honest tomorrow morning this boards going be blue beared as everyone f5s every ten seconds find out what’s going on.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 23, 2019 12:44:12 GMT
Not hypocritical at all. NJ is the present and TP is the past. Similarities exist where both have/had the desire to get promoted from the EFL to the EPL. Listening to NJ he says many things that are similar in content, or reflect the comments of TP in relation to the type of squad/first team that he is trying to build. If NJ delivers the same level of success which I hope he does we’ll be back in the EPL. Today’s comment from the club whereby recruitment will be focused on the U.K. is another similarity. Apologies if you misunderstood. Oh no I understand only too well. It's fine mention TP in any type of positive light regardless, but if it's anything negative even with discussions of similarities then it's a heinous crime. I get it , you love the capped one and I'm sure you will always be grateful. Personally I rather hope NJ emulates Waddington where success is being rated and not on some misread loyalty to man who does not care one jot about Stoke City. H If NJ emulates any of several managers that have delivered promotion in my lifetime I’ll be over the moon. Hope that’s better You really should move on and stop taking things personally if a particular manager is mentioned in a positive light or within a positive sentence which was supportive of the present manager |
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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Jun 23, 2019 13:40:32 GMT
I don’t think we’ll hear anything to Wednesday and even then it’ll be very predictable.
Ins - Gregory, Lindsay, Davies and Powell.
Outs - none yet
Followed by Scholes doing some self congratulating and talking about austerity.
I’ll be very worried if there’s no news on players going out on perms. That will be even more worrying than who’s coming in.
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Post by questionable on Jun 23, 2019 13:50:23 GMT
You do appear to be right CD, but that wasn’t a given at the time. Just because a manager has only managed at a certain level doesn’t in and of itself mean that’s all he knows about. I agree it is worrying if we’re closing our minds to both loans and the foreign market. He's got a Spanish coach hasn't he? Also I thought he had spent time abroad and said he was aware of the 'foreign market'? I could be wrong, although there is no reason whatsoever the club shouldn't be aware of all players nowadays, especially one with our resources. We're either bone idle or breathtakingly arrogant. We’ve got arrogance in an abundance believe me, the club stinks of it and people who aren’t fit for purpose at the club ala fat keeper have somehow got an aura and a swagger about them thinking they’re bulletproof. Scholes out |
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Post by RAF on Jun 23, 2019 14:00:11 GMT
Oh no I understand only too well. It's fine mention TP in any type of positive light regardless, but if it's anything negative even with discussions of similarities then it's a heinous crime. I get it , you love the capped one and I'm sure you will always be grateful. Personally I rather hope NJ emulates Waddington where success is being rated and not on some misread loyalty to man who does not care one jot about Stoke City. H If NJ emulates any of several managers that have delivered promotion in my lifetime I’ll be over the moon. Hope that’s better You really should move on and stop taking things personally if a particular manager is mentioned in a positive light or within a positive sentence which was supportive of the present manager I'll take your advice when you follow it yourself with ref to negative comments about said person. I don't take any of it personally but I do take exception to what I believe to be double standards and hypocrisy. If you can't see it I can't help you. H |
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jun 23, 2019 14:18:15 GMT
If NJ emulates any of several managers that have delivered promotion in my lifetime I’ll be over the moon. Hope that’s better You really should move on and stop taking things personally if a particular manager is mentioned in a positive light or within a positive sentence which was supportive of the present manager I'll take your advice when you follow it yourself with ref to negative comments about said person. I don't take any of it personally but I do take exception to what I believe to be double standards and hypocrisy. If you can't see it I can't help you. H You really want to put your personal narrow minded hatred about a certain manager to the back of your mind. If you don’t it will adversely affect your health, if it hasn’t done so already. I don’t take “exception” to your ongoing personal tirade against me. I’m not sure if I find it quite pathetic or amusing, probably a bit of both. Over and out |
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