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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 25, 2021 8:37:20 GMT
Manchester United are not alone in believing Premier League clubs might soon be able to legally permit fans to stand at games again. Across the English top flight, there is confidence that day is fast approaching. Across Manchester, champions City made their own alterations this summer, installing 5,620 rail seats in the lower tier of the Etihad Stadium’s South Stand in preparation for the first home game of the season against Norwich City. Chelsea have also added them in three different areas at Stamford Bridge, with delays to the work causing almost 1,000 fans to miss their opener against Crystal Palace. Liverpool, meanwhile, have installed 7,800 rail seats on The Kop and in the Anfield Road Stand. The Athletic also understands Leeds will be adding them in Elland Road’s Don Revie Stand this season. Then there are the trailblazers, Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers. Both have had thousands of rail seats in their ground for the last two years, ready and waiting for the expected legislative change. “It’s a strange dance at the moment,” “We’re in a position now where it’s like giving someone a lollipop and telling them not to lick it. That’s having rail seats and not being able to stand. “Legislation says we still need to have all-seater stadiums and safety-advisory groups and the club have to do everything they can to ensure people remain seated. “There’s an understanding within the club where there’s certain parts of the ground where the vast majority of fans want to stand. At this stage, rail seats are there to improve safety, but we’re expecting a change in legislation.” The hope, at least from the advocates for safe standing, is that we are months not years away from its formal introduction at the highest domestic level. MUST expect Manchester United to be part of any formal trials in the Premier League overseen by SGSA and the likelihood is that it will come this season with a handful of “early adopters” sought. The two Manchester clubs, Chelsea, Tottenham, Liverpool and Wolves already have the platforms to comply and others, such as Everton and Palace, have all previously said they are open to safe standing. Championship clubs, financially stretched more severely by COVID-19 than those in the top flight, might not have the resources to have planned one step ahead but they, too, could soon be free to welcome fans to safe-standing areas. “What we’ve ended up with is this halfway house where everyone knows it’s coming, everyone is confident enough to be investing in putting these things in the ground, but it’s not quite clear yet when that date will come. “Everyone needs robust evidence and needs to have satisfied themselves, the police and other stakeholders that it can all be done safely. “It does feel now, and this is only my opinion, that everyone is happy with what they’ve seen and now it’s just a matter of getting the paperwork sorted, dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s.” I think this accurately sums up the position as we understand it to be at the FSA. We are expecting a Government announcement in the next few weeks. I think the official phrase “early adopters” is much more encouraging than “pilots”. The key thing is that the Sports Ground Safety Authority are now on board which wasn’t the case for many years. It’s been a long road but I am optimistic that we can now see the right end in sight.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 25, 2021 8:39:55 GMT
I could be completely wrong but haven't Stoke previously said they weren't so keen? Pretty sure Coatesy has spoken negatively about it in the past. Yes he has. He once told me that “ this is a horse which won’t run”. But that was quite a few years ago now, and the mood music is very different now
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 25, 2021 8:46:27 GMT
Hopefully Malcolm Clarke will appear on this thread to give us the latest info on when and where this is likely to happen first and how soon the experiment will become the norm. Done, John. Thanks for PM alerting me to the thread. I should perhaps have added that the Government have to lay some regulations before Parliament. I’m not an expert on Parliamentary procedure but our understanding is that they don’t have to repeal the primary legislation but do have to do something.
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Post by mtrstudent on Aug 25, 2021 9:59:18 GMT
How many extra fans can you get in with these rail seat things?
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Post by AlbertTatlock on Aug 25, 2021 11:17:45 GMT
Pretty sure Coatesy has spoken negatively about it in the past. Yes he has. He once told me that “ this is a horse which won’t run”. But that was quite a few years ago now, and the mood music is very different now I hope he hasn't changed his mind, it's a retrospective step IMO. It won't improve the atmosphere or attendance, all we'll see is the seats being removed and barriers put in their place. I don't get the desire for returning to it either it's like wishing you still drove the Mini you owned in 1974 - the idea seems a good one but in reality it's just crap. Gouranga.
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Post by AlbertTatlock on Aug 25, 2021 11:19:23 GMT
How many extra fans can you get in with these rail seat things? None! You have to sell tickets first and we're struggling to do that. No one is going to turn up just because they can stand up for an hour. Gouranga.
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Post by zerps on Aug 25, 2021 11:20:56 GMT
This can only be good for football
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 11:30:48 GMT
Yes he has. He once told me that “ this is a horse which won’t run”. But that was quite a few years ago now, and the mood music is very different now I hope he hasn't changed his mind, it's a retrospective step IMO. It won't improve the atmosphere or attendance, all we'll see is the seats being removed and barriers put in their place. I don't get the desire for returning to it either it's like wishing you still drove the Mini you owned in 1974 - the idea seems a good one but in reality it's just crap.
Gouranga. Pretty much how I see it but many do look back at things being so much better than they ever were. Seems is a call for it though from a fair few, not from me but don't speak for everyone. Umbongo
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 11:32:32 GMT
Yes he has. He once told me that “ this is a horse which won’t run”. But that was quite a few years ago now, and the mood music is very different now I hope he hasn't changed his mind, it's a retrospective step IMO. It won't improve the atmosphere or attendance, all we'll see is the seats being removed and barriers put in their place. I don't get the desire for returning to it either it's like wishing you still drove the Mini you owned in 1974 - the idea seems a good one but in reality it's just crap. Gouranga. Strange take, its a win-win idea. If you want to continue to sit, then don't move. If you want to stand, go to the safe standing area. I haven't sat down at a game since I can remember, neither have any of those around me or the majority of away supporters. PS they don't remove seats, hence calling it rail-seating. Why you'd be against it when you can still sit in the seat where you likely do now & it won't affect you, I don't know. Plenty of people want this and rightly so.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 11:40:03 GMT
I hope he hasn't changed his mind, it's a retrospective step IMO. It won't improve the atmosphere or attendance, all we'll see is the seats being removed and barriers put in their place. I don't get the desire for returning to it either it's like wishing you still drove the Mini you owned in 1974 - the idea seems a good one but in reality it's just crap. Gouranga. Strange take, its a win-win idea. If you want to continue to sit, then don't move. If you want to stand, go to the safe standing area. I haven't sat down at a game since I can remember, neither have any of those around me or the majority of away supporters. PS they don't remove seats, hence calling it rail-seating. Why you'd be against it when you can still sit in the seat where you likely do now & it won't affect you, I don't know. Plenty of people want this and rightly so. It's a shame so many people don't understand this argument. I'm all for different opinions, but on this exact matter it's a simple matter of choice. You prefer to sit? Well fine you can do so. You always have been able to and you always will. Some people prefer to stand and would like to have that option? "No that's not a good idea because I prefer to sit"... I don't understand how it is even a debate amongst supporters. If I had no legs I would be pro-standing because I know there's people who want it. It's that simple. The only arguments that make some sense are the arguments from the hillsborough families, and even those arguments only make sense from an emotional viewpoint. If you remove the emotion they have 0 reasonable argument.
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Post by zerps on Aug 25, 2021 11:47:15 GMT
Where will dangerous standing be implemented?
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Post by Squeekster on Aug 25, 2021 11:47:52 GMT
Where will dangerous standing be implemented? Outside by the away end!
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Post by AlbertTatlock on Aug 25, 2021 11:48:14 GMT
I hope he hasn't changed his mind, it's a retrospective step IMO. It won't improve the atmosphere or attendance, all we'll see is the seats being removed and barriers put in their place. I don't get the desire for returning to it either it's like wishing you still drove the Mini you owned in 1974 - the idea seems a good one but in reality it's just crap. Gouranga. Strange take, its a win-win idea. If you want to continue to sit, then don't move. If you want to stand, go to the safe standing area. I haven't sat down at a game since I can remember, neither have any of those around me or the majority of away supporters. PS they don't remove seats, hence calling it rail-seating. Why you'd be against it when you can still sit in the seat where you likely do now & it won't affect you, I don't know. Plenty of people want this and rightly so. Thank fuck you don't "sit" in front of me. I can remember standing at the Boothen in the Victoria ground as a kid - it was fucking awful, loads of pissed up dickheads - pissing, spitting arguing with anyone they could get an answer from, the toilets like cesspits and the barrage of surging fans crushing you if we scored, no matter where you wanted to stand there'd always be some knuckle dragging ape standing in front of you blocking your view. Other than that it was very civilised. Gouranga.
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Post by zerps on Aug 25, 2021 11:50:12 GMT
Where will dangerous standing be implemented? Outside by the away end! In the bogs next to a piss trough
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 11:51:29 GMT
Strange take, its a win-win idea. If you want to continue to sit, then don't move. If you want to stand, go to the safe standing area. I haven't sat down at a game since I can remember, neither have any of those around me or the majority of away supporters. PS they don't remove seats, hence calling it rail-seating. Why you'd be against it when you can still sit in the seat where you likely do now & it won't affect you, I don't know. Plenty of people want this and rightly so. It's a shame so many people don't understand this argument. I'm all for different opinions, but on this exact matter it's a simple matter of choice. You prefer to sit? Well fine you can do so. You always have been able to and you always will. Some people prefer to stand and would like to have that option? "No that's not a good idea because I prefer to sit"... I don't understand how it is even a debate amongst supporters. If I had no legs I would be pro-standing because I know there's people who want it. It's that simple. The only arguments that make some sense are the arguments from the hillsborough families, and even those arguments only make sense from an emotional viewpoint. If you remove the emotion they have 0 reasonable argument. Yep. Isn't for me but seem many want it so no problem with it.
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Post by scfc75 on Aug 25, 2021 11:56:04 GMT
It's a shame so many people don't understand this argument. I'm all for different opinions, but on this exact matter it's a simple matter of choice. You prefer to sit? Well fine you can do so. You always have been able to and you always will. Some people prefer to stand and would like to have that option? "No that's not a good idea because I prefer to sit"... I don't understand how it is even a debate amongst supporters. If I had no legs I would be pro-standing because I know there's people who want it. It's that simple. The only arguments that make some sense are the arguments from the hillsborough families, and even those arguments only make sense from an emotional viewpoint. If you remove the emotion they have 0 reasonable argument. Yep. Isn't for me but seem many want it so no problem with it. Like hummus, or dogging.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 11:59:05 GMT
Strange take, its a win-win idea. If you want to continue to sit, then don't move. If you want to stand, go to the safe standing area. I haven't sat down at a game since I can remember, neither have any of those around me or the majority of away supporters. PS they don't remove seats, hence calling it rail-seating. Why you'd be against it when you can still sit in the seat where you likely do now & it won't affect you, I don't know. Plenty of people want this and rightly so. Thank fuck you don't "sit" in front of me. I can remember standing at the Boothen in the Victoria ground as a kid - it was fucking awful, loads of pissed up dickheads - pissing, spitting arguing with anyone they could get an answer from, the toilets like cesspits and the barrage of surging fans crushing you if we scored, no matter where you wanted to stand there'd always be some knuckle dragging ape standing in front of you blocking your view. Other than that it was very civilised. Gouranga. Realistically though we aren't going back to those days are we? Society has changed for starts, but the standing that would return would be different. Technology has moved on. Rail-seating isn't going to be a 1970s free for all in dilapidated old grounds, with unsegregated mobs looking to kick fuck out of one another... Hell, I personally think we should have traditional terraces again like they do in Germany, and that wouldn't be anything close to the old days.
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Post by zerps on Aug 25, 2021 12:08:18 GMT
Thank fuck you don't "sit" in front of me. I can remember standing at the Boothen in the Victoria ground as a kid - it was fucking awful, loads of pissed up dickheads - pissing, spitting arguing with anyone they could get an answer from, the toilets like cesspits and the barrage of surging fans crushing you if we scored, no matter where you wanted to stand there'd always be some knuckle dragging ape standing in front of you blocking your view. Other than that it was very civilised. Gouranga. Realistically though we aren't going back to those days are we? Society has changed for starts, but the standing that would return would be different. Technology has moved on. Rail-seating isn't going to be a 1970s free for all in dilapidated old grounds, with unsegregated mobs looking to kick fuck out of one another... Hell, I personally think we should have traditional terraces again like they do in Germany, and that wouldn't be anything close to the old days. If I have to stand up I’ll piss everywhere
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Post by danceswithclams on Aug 25, 2021 12:12:23 GMT
Yep. Isn't for me but seem many want it so no problem with it. Like hummus, or dogging. I am very much for both of these things, especially when combined (makes surprisingly good/tasty lube does Hummus).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 12:31:59 GMT
Strange take, its a win-win idea. If you want to continue to sit, then don't move. If you want to stand, go to the safe standing area. I haven't sat down at a game since I can remember, neither have any of those around me or the majority of away supporters. PS they don't remove seats, hence calling it rail-seating. Why you'd be against it when you can still sit in the seat where you likely do now & it won't affect you, I don't know. Plenty of people want this and rightly so. Thank fuck you don't "sit" in front of me. I can remember standing at the Boothen in the Victoria ground as a kid - it was fucking awful, loads of pissed up dickheads - pissing, spitting arguing with anyone they could get an answer from, the toilets like cesspits and the barrage of surging fans crushing you if we scored, no matter where you wanted to stand there'd always be some knuckle dragging ape standing in front of you blocking your view. Other than that it was very civilised. Gouranga. Ah yes because the standing at the Vic and the standing being put forward here are identical Couldn't be more different, go & do some research.
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Post by mickstupp on Aug 25, 2021 12:37:57 GMT
Tear down that monstrosity they built in the Boothen/Main stand corner and build a safe standing area there. I know the grounds too big for us at the moment already but I think it would look good.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 12:54:23 GMT
Tear down that monstrosity they built in the Boothen/Main stand corner and build a safe standing area there. I know the grounds too big for us at the moment already but I think it would look good. Tear down "the boothen end" and build one that's actually worthy of the name IMO.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 25, 2021 13:29:46 GMT
How many extra fans can you get in with these rail seat things? If you can get any extra fans in depends on 2 things. First the spacing between the rows of seats - i.e. the amount of leg room. Our rows are pretty close together so I doubt if we would get many extra fans in and still comply with safety rules. In Germany some rail seating areas will accomodate 50% more fans. BUT - and this is the killer as far as the bet365 is concerned. At the moment most of our concourses are bang on the lower legal limit as far as capacity is concerned. Only the main stand lower concourse will accomodate significantly more people than determined by the seats in the stand above. All the other stands have concourses which would break the law and not be big enough if the capacity of the stands above them was increased to take account of more people in safe standing areas. Sadly, the Brit was built just before the rules were tightened. So whilst the concourses easily complied with the rules when the Brit was built - they are now on the lower size limit. We could, of course, enlarge the concourses by building a new outer wall to hold the turnstiles and the catering areas and put an extended roof over the new area created, thus making the concourses big enough to accommodate extra fans in the stand above.
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Post by nott1 on Aug 25, 2021 13:33:13 GMT
Can't see it happening at Stoke anytime soon. It would take a considerable amount or rebuilding never mind investment, and for what? Less comfort!
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Post by lordb on Aug 25, 2021 13:40:11 GMT
Can't see it happening at Stoke anytime soon. It would take a considerable amount or rebuilding never mind investment, and for what? Less comfort! standing is more comfortable for some
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 13:48:20 GMT
How many extra fans can you get in with these rail seat things? If you can get any extra fans in depends on 2 things. First the spacing between the rows of seats - i.e. the amount of leg room. Our rows are pretty close together so I doubt if we would get many extra fans in and still comply with safety rules. In Germany some rail seating areas will accomodate 50% more fans. BUT - and this is the killer as far as the bet365 is concerned. At the moment most of our concourses are bang on the lower legal limit as far as capacity is concerned. Only the main stand lower concourse will accomodate significantly more people than determined by the seats in the stand above. All the other stands have concourses which would break the law and not be big enough if the capacity of the stands above them was increased to take account of more people in safe standing areas. Sadly, the Brit was built just before the rules were tightened. So whilst the concourses easily complied with the rules when the Brit was built - they are now on the lower size limit. We could, of course, enlarge the concourses by building a new outer wall to hold the turnstiles and the catering areas and put an extended roof over the new area created, thus making the concourses big enough to accommodate extra fans in the stand above. I don’t think all the non main stand concourses are equal. I went in the south stand for a game last year and the concourse seemed huge. It might’ve been the new corner concourse. I was half cut to be fair so maybe my memory is playing tricks. The boothen end concourse though was always a joke from what I can remember, and this was from when crowds were significantly lower than they have been for the last 12/13 years. Navigating your way through was always a total free for all and a game of locating the small stream moving in the direction you want to travel, and then pushing your way through to join it and hoping it doesn’t randomly dissipate whilst you’re in it. Maybe it’s not so bad these days if they let people out to smoke? Either way, a fit for purpose new boothen end with standing areas is my dream. But most likely a pipe dream, something like that would need to come from the top, not some random div on a MB like me. Also would never feasibly happen until we’re back in the premiership and standing has become legal/widespread again as we’re not going to be pioneering in that regard.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 13:50:38 GMT
Can't see it happening at Stoke anytime soon. It would take a considerable amount or rebuilding never mind investment, and for what? Less comfort! I can’t see it happening either but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t. Plenty of other clubs have been proactive on this and it represents a connection between the club and the supporters. I’m sure if you polled all current ST holders, the majority would be in favour even if the majority had no desire to stand. But even if only 10% wish to stand then it should happen.
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Post by AlbertTatlock on Aug 25, 2021 13:50:42 GMT
Thank fuck you don't "sit" in front of me. I can remember standing at the Boothen in the Victoria ground as a kid - it was fucking awful, loads of pissed up dickheads - pissing, spitting arguing with anyone they could get an answer from, the toilets like cesspits and the barrage of surging fans crushing you if we scored, no matter where you wanted to stand there'd always be some knuckle dragging ape standing in front of you blocking your view. Other than that it was very civilised. Gouranga. Ah yes because the standing at the Vic and the standing being put forward here are identical Couldn't be more different, go & do some research. You're all the research I need, you obviously don't give a fuck about the rules as they are so you're not going to give a flying fuck about any rules that introduced should they allow some standing areas. Gouranga.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2021 13:55:03 GMT
Ah yes because the standing at the Vic and the standing being put forward here are identical Couldn't be more different, go & do some research. You're all the research I need, you obviously don't give a fuck about the rules as they are so you're not going to give a flying fuck about any rules that introduced should they allow some standing areas. Gouranga. Maybe he has a back row ST specifically so he can stand without obstructing someone’s view? In fact, I think you’ll find that almost everyone with a back row ST has it there specifically to stand.
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Post by houstonsteve on Aug 25, 2021 14:04:32 GMT
Giving the fans more choices and option can only be a good thing. Think of all the extra pre match pints you can have knowing that you'll be getting a good 105 minutes of standing exercise for free. Everyones Iwatch is going to love them.
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