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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 30, 2019 13:00:37 GMT
So, according to Remainers brexit is going to be catastrophic for businesses but at the same time the rich, many of whom make their money through these businesses, are going to benefit greatly ? Can’t have it both ways. Firstly not all business owners are rich - so don't conflate the concerns of business with the votes of the rich. Secondly the rich vote - like much of the vote for the rest of any particular demographic - was split. The rich will vote for themselves (as do many others in truth) and what they will get out of it. Rees-Mogg and James Dyson were prominent leavers on how great Britain would be post Brexit but neither showed particular consistency in the that by hedging their bets by moving their offices to Dublin and Singapore respectively. Bamford was also vocal on leave - but he sees larger markets in Asia and elsewhere than he does in Europe. Much of the finance sector on the other hand voted remain because of the prominence of London as a financial centre for the EU. The concern for the disruption to business (large and small) immediately post No Deal is very real (as this government's own report has shown) - longer term the concern for a number of people is that outside the EU the UK will become a low wage economy with shady offshore dealings and money laundering centers (AKA Johnson's Freeports) which will benefit the rich and particularly the super rich significantly and the poor not at all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 13:15:07 GMT
Because they haven't been able to put them on the bonfire yet because of the EU... But they could have diminished them and still fallen within the requirements of the EUs workers rights, but they didn’t/haven’t. I think they've just thought up zero hours contracts mate so they haven't really needed to. I think there would have been outrage. I'm not saying they are definitely going to do it but without the protections there I am concerned that the trap door will be opened and the safety net has been taken away. As I said above, anyone in my view who isn't rolling in it and thinks this Tory party has their interests at heart needs to give their heads a wobble.
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 13:16:26 GMT
So, according to Remainers brexit is going to be catastrophic for businesses but at the same time the rich, many of whom make their money through these businesses, are going to benefit greatly ? Can’t have it both ways. Firstly not all business owners are rich - so don't conflate the concerns of business with the votes of the rich. Secondly the rich vote - like much of the vote for the rest of any particular demographic - was split. The rich will vote for themselves (as do many others in truth) and what they will get out of it. Rees-Mogg and James Dyson were prominent leavers on how great Britain would be post Brexit but neither showed particular consistency in the that by hedging their bets by moving their offices to Dublin and Singapore respectively. Bamford was also vocal on leave - but he sees larger markets in Asia and elsewhere than he does in Europe. Much of the finance sector on the other hand voted remain because of the prominence of London as a financial centre for the EU. The concern for the disruption to business (large and small) immediately post No Deal is very real (as this government's own report has shown) - longer term the concern for a number of people is that outside the EU the UK will become a low wage economy with shady offshore dealings and money laundering centers (AKA Johnson's Freeports) which will benefit the rich and particularly the super rich significantly and the poor not at all. Rees mogg and Dyson are names Remainers always pull out of the bag, but look at who supported remain, virtually all the mega banks including Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan. Lloyd’s ... to say the mega rich were predominantly on the side of leave is patently false. You also had the likes of David Harding, chief executive of hedge fund Winton Capital Management, donating £3.5million to the remain campaign.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 30, 2019 13:25:07 GMT
Because they haven't been able to put them on the bonfire yet because of the EU... But they could have diminished them and still fallen within the requirements of the EUs workers rights, but they didn’t/haven’t. Yes they have. In the past few years they have implemented a law that requires 50%+ of a union members to vote on a strike for it to become legal. Not 50% of the vote, but 50%+ of all the members. That’s more than it takes for a party to rule a country & way more than a handful of grandies from the Torys who just elected our PM.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 30, 2019 13:31:49 GMT
Firstly not all business owners are rich - so don't conflate the concerns of business with the votes of the rich. Secondly the rich vote - like much of the vote for the rest of any particular demographic - was split. The rich will vote for themselves (as do many others in truth) and what they will get out of it. Rees-Mogg and James Dyson were prominent leavers on how great Britain would be post Brexit but neither showed particular consistency in the that by hedging their bets by moving their offices to Dublin and Singapore respectively. Bamford was also vocal on leave - but he sees larger markets in Asia and elsewhere than he does in Europe. Much of the finance sector on the other hand voted remain because of the prominence of London as a financial centre for the EU. The concern for the disruption to business (large and small) immediately post No Deal is very real (as this government's own report has shown) - longer term the concern for a number of people is that outside the EU the UK will become a low wage economy with shady offshore dealings and money laundering centers (AKA Johnson's Freeports) which will benefit the rich and particularly the super rich significantly and the poor not at all. Rees mogg and Dyson are names Remainers always pull out of the bag, but look at who supported remain, virtually all the mega banks including Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan. Lloyd’s ... to say the mega rich were predominantly on the side of leave is patently false. You also had the likes of David Harding, chief executive of hedge fund Winton Capital Management, donating £3.5million to the remain campaign. Your examples are from the finance sector which I said above were largely remain. Rich non-finance would be Aaron Banks, Will Adderley, tax exiles Jim Ratcliffe and Lord Rothchilde,Anthony Bamford and Tim Martin, all of whom you could see might be attracted to a low wage, low tax economy.
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 30, 2019 13:36:17 GMT
For the millionth time 99% of the people were under the impression we would leave with a deal which we were told would be a piece of cake. Care to substantiate that figure? What the millionth ? I think this's proves he's prone to exaggerate
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 13:42:30 GMT
Rees mogg and Dyson are names Remainers always pull out of the bag, but look at who supported remain, virtually all the mega banks including Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, J.P. Morgan. Lloyd’s ... to say the mega rich were predominantly on the side of leave is patently false. You also had the likes of David Harding, chief executive of hedge fund Winton Capital Management, donating £3.5million to the remain campaign. Your examples are from the finance sector which I said above were largely remain. Rich non-finance would be Aaron Banks, Will Adderley, tax exiles Jim Ratcliffe and Lord Rothchilde,Anthony Bamford and Tim Martin, all of whom you could see might be attracted to a low wage, low tax economy. But there were also plenty of rich non finance sector Inividuals who campaigned for remain, I suppose they’re all altruistic whilst the leavers were all doing it purely for money grubbing reasons ?
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 13:55:30 GMT
But they could have diminished them and still fallen within the requirements of the EUs workers rights, but they didn’t/haven’t. Yes they have. In the past few years they have implemented a law that requires 50%+ of a union members to vote on a strike for it to become legal. Not 50% of the vote, but 50%+ of all the members. That’s more than it takes for a party to rule a country & way more than a handful of grandies from the Torys who just elected our PM. And Done whilst we’re a member of the eu.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 30, 2019 13:59:23 GMT
Your examples are from the finance sector which I said above were largely remain. Rich non-finance would be Aaron Banks, Will Adderley, tax exiles Jim Ratcliffe and Lord Rothchilde,Anthony Bamford and Tim Martin, all of whom you could see might be attracted to a low wage, low tax economy. But there were also plenty of rich non finance sector Inividuals who campaigned for remain, I suppose they’re all altruistic whilst the leavers were all doing it purely for money grubbing reasons ? No - but I thought I'd addressed that point what I said the rich will vote for themselves and what they can get out of it. To some rich folk remain is a good outcome, to other rich folk leave is a good outcome. It's just that I personally believe that the by-product for the poor of fat selfish bastards voting remain would be better than fat (or in the case of Moggy - thin) selfish bastards voting leave. Whether I'm right or wrong you'll need to ask me in 10 years time.
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 30, 2019 14:18:31 GMT
But there were also plenty of rich non finance sector Inividuals who campaigned for remain, I suppose they’re all altruistic whilst the leavers were all doing it purely for money grubbing reasons ? No - but I thought I'd addressed that point what I said the rich will vote for themselves and what they can get out of it. To some rich folk remain is a good outcome, to other rich folk leave is a good outcome. It's just that I personally believe that the by-product for the poor of fat selfish bastards voting remain would be better than fat (or in the case of Moggy - thin) selfish bastards voting leave. Whether I'm right or wrong you'll need to ask me in 10 years time. I think you'll find EVERYBODY votes for themselves and what's in or them and rightly so . People voted one away Orr the other based on their own convictions, how would it affect me and my family . It's just human nature. Don't lose sight of the fact that 70% of brexit votes were cast in working class labour constituencies. It's not a conservative or a Johnson brexit at all
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 14:23:39 GMT
But there were also plenty of rich non finance sector Inividuals who campaigned for remain, I suppose they’re all altruistic whilst the leavers were all doing it purely for money grubbing reasons ? No - but I thought I'd addressed that point what I said the rich will vote for themselves and what they can get out of it. To some rich folk remain is a good outcome, to other rich folk leave is a good outcome. It's just that I personally believe that the by-product for the poor of fat selfish bastards voting remain would be better than fat (or in the case of Moggy - thin) selfish bastards voting leave. Whether I'm right or wrong you'll need to ask me in 10 years time. We also have to remember brexit wasnt purely about economics, the exit polls showed most leave voters cited regaining full sovereignty as their main reason for voting leave.
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Post by Northy on Aug 30, 2019 14:30:33 GMT
Ay up Jack you don't give a monkey's what happens to other people as long as your little vanity project succeeds and you can come on here shouting in your echo chamber. There was a woman on the radio this morning whose grandchild has cancer and the drugs he needs are manufactured in France and they have a very short shelf life so any delays at ports may mean the child could die. When asked if she thought Boris Johnson would be concerned her answer was " of course not Brexit is more important than anything in this country " At the time I thought we'll never let this happen........then I read your post Hypocrite? months and months ago, the CEO of Calais port said they were ready for Brexit, deal or no deal, their processes were in place ready for any extra issues and there won't be any delays their end. Which is quite surprising for the French, they can block a road at the drop of the hat. There is a deal in place for planes to continue to fly to and from Europe from the UK after Brexit, they go a lot quicker than boats you know Was the radio programme the BBC by any chance?
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 30, 2019 14:30:36 GMT
No - but I thought I'd addressed that point what I said the rich will vote for themselves and what they can get out of it. To some rich folk remain is a good outcome, to other rich folk leave is a good outcome. It's just that I personally believe that the by-product for the poor of fat selfish bastards voting remain would be better than fat (or in the case of Moggy - thin) selfish bastards voting leave. Whether I'm right or wrong you'll need to ask me in 10 years time. I think you'll find EVERYBODY votes for themselves and what's in or them and rightly so . People voted one away Orr the other based on their own convictions, how would it affect me and my family . It's just human nature. Don't lose sight of the fact that 70% of brexit votes were cast in working class labour constituencies. It's not a conservative or a Johnson brexit at all Correct that Brexit was not a Conservative or Labour issue, but it's more Conservative than Labour. 61% of Conservative voters in the 2015 election went on to vote to Leave in 2016, as opposed to 35% of Labour voters. yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-votedGiven the referendum was a Conservative policy and they have been in charge throughout the whole Brexit problem, I think it's fair to say that this is particular Brexit that is happening now is very much a Conservative Brexit. Assuming they see it out to the end that is.
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 30, 2019 14:31:43 GMT
Parliament has had 3 readings of various Withdrawal agreements in the last 3 years that have been comprehensively been defeated. I don't think any anyone would suggest that an agreement could be reached in 6 days or 6 months or 6 years. Time for a leader of the country to lead for a change. It's not just that they've rejected the Withdrawal Agreement three times. They voted overwhelmingly to hold the referendum in the first place. They voted by a 380-odd majority to invoke Article 50 after the referendum. In the indicative votes, they rejected a second referendum. They rejected membership of the single market and a customs union, and they rejected revoking Article 50. The only thing they've voted for is the Brady Amendment; pie in the sky bollocks which the EU will never entertain. They're back in Parliament next week and will apparently be trying to pass legislation to block a no-deal Brexit. Quite how they think they can manage that is anybody's guess. They only thing they can do, surely, is to instruct Johnson to go the EU and ask for another extension, which is highly unlikely to happen, given that he won't be going to Brussels with anything to offer. There's no way Macron will agree to it either, considering he didn't want to grant the March extension in the first place. I think Johnson needs to go the the EU summit in October and put a paper bag over Mrs Macrons head whilst holding his nose , job done
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 14:40:19 GMT
I still think there will be a last minute deal along the lines of Mays WA, parliament will have to pass it as Boris will dangle no deal in front of them if they don’t.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 30, 2019 14:57:17 GMT
No - but I thought I'd addressed that point what I said the rich will vote for themselves and what they can get out of it. To some rich folk remain is a good outcome, to other rich folk leave is a good outcome. It's just that I personally believe that the by-product for the poor of fat selfish bastards voting remain would be better than fat (or in the case of Moggy - thin) selfish bastards voting leave. Whether I'm right or wrong you'll need to ask me in 10 years time. We also have to remember brexit wasnt purely about economics, the exit polls showed most leave voters cited regaining full sovereignty as their main reason for voting leave. Most working class leavers cited immigration as their prime (though not necessarily sole) reason. Post the vote the debate turned to economic consequences. Since economic forecasts - certainly for the short to medium term - have pointed towards things getting worse before they get better (even Gove admits to a rocky road) soveriegnty has moved more towards centre stage. All three are important components however the relative importance of one above the other has shifted depending on relative strength of arguement elsewhere. Fact is most (not all) leavers are leavers and remainers remainers and won't be pursuaded either way - any discussion is generally confirmation bias and rarely moves the dabate on. That's why ghe country is so seemingly irreparably divided.
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 15:03:49 GMT
We also have to remember brexit wasnt purely about economics, the exit polls showed most leave voters cited regaining full sovereignty as their main reason for voting leave. Most working class leavers cited immigration as their prime (though not necessarily sole) reason. Post the vote the debate turned to economic consequences. Since economic forecasts - certainly for the short to medium term - have pointed towards things getting worse before they get better (even Gove admits to a rocky road) soveriegnty has moved more towards centre stage. All three are important components however the relative importance of one above the other has shifted depending on relative strength of arguement elsewhere. Fact is most (not all) leavers are leavers and remainers remainers and won't be pursuaded either way - any discussion is generally confirmation bias and rarely moves the dabate on. That's why ghe country is so seemingly irreparably divided. True, most people are entrenched in their position and no amount of debate will change things, the proof will be in the pudding.... although will it ? If there’s a downturn it might not necessarily be down to brexit if it’s world wide.
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 15:07:06 GMT
The oatcake is still very much leave territory according to my 35 voter sample 🙂 Attachment Deleted
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 30, 2019 15:07:38 GMT
I still think there will be a last minute deal along the lines of Mays WA, parliament will have to pass it as Boris will dangle no deal in front of them if they don’t. I agree with that though for slightly different reasons. Both sides would want to blame each other for a no deal. EU have a habit of going to the wire so will make a last minute offer - slight modification to the backstop, slight reduction in the 39bn or something like that. If Johnson refuses to put it to parliament he'll be held up st home and abroad as reckless. If he does put it to parliament it will be accepted as the only option. Both sides save face as EU have shown flexibility, Johnson has deli ered on his promise
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 30, 2019 15:12:27 GMT
I still think there will be a last minute deal along the lines of Mays WA, parliament will have to pass it as Boris will dangle no deal in front of them if they don’t. Spot on they've been set up, they played a game which lead straight into BJ'S hands! but they forgot Boris now holds all the important cards. He's calling their bluff I've no doubt he will take a deal to the HoC with a take it or leave it option. They've lost, it's to late to stop a no deal now so put up or shut up. It's their own fault for trying to bring down a government to install JC.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 30, 2019 15:13:52 GMT
The oatcake is still very much leave territory according to my 35 voter sample 🙂 View AttachmentMust have missed that make it 36 and put me down for leave.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 30, 2019 15:17:54 GMT
The oatcake is still very much leave territory according to my 35 voter sample 🙂 View AttachmentIf 50%+ of the members didn’t vote in it, it doesn’t count for 💩🗳
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 15:24:12 GMT
The oatcake is still very much leave territory according to my 35 voter sample 🙂 View AttachmentIf 50%+ of the members didn’t vote in it, it doesn’t count for 💩🗳 Thought you were going to say they didn’t know what they were voting for. 😬
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 15:27:40 GMT
I still think there will be a last minute deal along the lines of Mays WA, parliament will have to pass it as Boris will dangle no deal in front of them if they don’t. Spot on they've been set up, they played a game which lead straight into BJ'S hands! but they forgot Boris now holds all the important cards. He's calling their bluff I've no doubt he will take a deal to the HoC with a take it or leave it option. They've lost, it's to late to stop a no deal now so put up or shut up. It's their own fault for trying to bring down a government to install JC. He’s in a win-win position, only problem he might have is if brexiteers see the deal as a sell out and wish to punish him at the ballot box.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 30, 2019 15:40:13 GMT
Not really I like the idea but I dont have the time is just a polite fcuk off isn't it ? Not saying there is not enough iffy associations to mean that Farage will never hold high political office but equally when brexit happens it can be argued he has achieved more than many politicians who did.
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Post by lommack on Aug 30, 2019 15:43:17 GMT
Ay up Jack you don't give a monkey's what happens to other people as long as your little vanity project succeeds and you can come on here shouting in your echo chamber. There was a woman on the radio this morning whose grandchild has cancer and the drugs he needs are manufactured in France and they have a very short shelf life so any delays at ports may mean the child could die. When asked if she thought Boris Johnson would be concerned her answer was " of course not Brexit is more important than anything in this country " At the time I thought we'll never let this happen........then I read your post Hypocrite? months and months ago, the CEO of Calais port said they were ready for Brexit, deal or no deal, their processes were in place ready for any extra issues and there won't be any delays their end. Which is quite surprising for the French, they can block a road at the drop of the hat. There is a deal in place for planes to continue to fly to and from Europe from the UK after Brexit, they go a lot quicker than boats you know Was the radio programme the BBC by any chance? Another one who couldn't care less, the poor woman's making it up now? Do you need empathy to be a right winger? Contributors like you and Jack (he used to be a labour supporter you know???) really worry me for the psyche of the Brexit at any cost lunatics.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 30, 2019 15:45:09 GMT
Or they could just you know not take any merchandise with them and sell it all online makes you wonder how all these bands manage to tour the USA or Australia etc etc
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 30, 2019 15:48:50 GMT
Spot on they've been set up, they played a game which lead straight into BJ'S hands! but they forgot Boris now holds all the important cards. He's calling their bluff I've no doubt he will take a deal to the HoC with a take it or leave it option. They've lost, it's to late to stop a no deal now so put up or shut up. It's their own fault for trying to bring down a government to install JC. He’s in a win-win position, only problem he might have is if brexiteers see the deal as a sell out and wish to punish him at the ballot box. I'm pretty sure he's only PM for one reason to deliver Brexit once that's done he will get thrown out. I'm also sure he knows that and is prepared for it.
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Post by Davef on Aug 30, 2019 15:54:36 GMT
Ay up Jack you don't give a monkey's what happens to other people as long as your little vanity project succeeds and you can come on here shouting in your echo chamber. There was a woman on the radio this morning whose grandchild has cancer and the drugs he needs are manufactured in France and they have a very short shelf life so any delays at ports may mean the child could die. When asked if she thought Boris Johnson would be concerned her answer was " of course not Brexit is more important than anything in this country " At the time I thought we'll never let this happen........then I read your post Hypocrite? months and months ago, the CEO of Calais port said they were ready for Brexit, deal or no deal, their processes were in place ready for any extra issues and there won't be any delays their end. Which is quite surprising for the French, they can block a road at the drop of the hat. There is a deal in place for planes to continue to fly to and from Europe from the UK after Brexit, they go a lot quicker than boats you know Was the radio programme the BBC by any chance? I'd take what the CEO of the Port of Calais says with an extremely large pinch of salt. It seems he changes his opinion at the drop of a hat. He was imploring May and Barnier to sort something out just months before this claim, saying that there'd be 30 mile tailbacks after Brexit.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 30, 2019 16:10:45 GMT
Ill play along then whats not true this time? For the millionth time 99% of the people were under the impression we would leave with a deal which we were told would be a piece of cake.
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