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Post by franklin66 on Aug 30, 2019 11:14:15 GMT
No deal holds me fears for me I'm lucky I guess, but I know for the majority leaving with a deal will be the better options. However due to all the bullshit plotting a part of me hopes we leave no deal then ALL of the plotters will have this squarely on them. There has been three years to sort this and three times a vote was rejected for nothing but party political reasons. Labour who allegedly support leaving have now allowed this to happen by not supporting a deal the ERG and other no deal extremists could not have stopped this if they had done the right thing. I hope they all rot in hell.... but from purely a personal point happy days. I'm alright Jack! Do you do what's best for you and yours? But on a point of order did you miss the best for others part of my post you hypocrite.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 30, 2019 11:19:59 GMT
Wealthy people can create profit from chaos - it's the smaller people/companies that can't react quick enough. Put it this way, if it did go tits up (and I'm not saying it will) who do you think will be more affected - the rich or the poor? The poor/ unemployed are suffering more than the rich within the EU Who do you think have hurt the poor in Britain more, the EU or the Rich...
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 30, 2019 11:21:48 GMT
I wouldn't agree with it, even in those circumstances. If a Prime Minister is struggling to get things through parliaments it means either their majority is wafer-thin, meaning the public have decided that they don't want him/her to have that much power and he/she should be scrutinised rigiourously by parliament, or they are trying to implement something that vast swathes of their own party think is a shit idea. In both of those circumstances I don't believe removing parliament from the process is the answer. I think we'll leave with no deal. I think for the last two or three years the right-wing of the Tory party have been planning this. May was a puppet who they did not allow to deliver Brexit because it didn't fit in with their idea of Brexit. Now Johnson is drafted in at the last minute with the excuse that there's simply not time to scuritinise his Brexit plans, and the extreme side of the Tory part will get what it wanted all along. The estabishment always gets what it wants and it's been hankering for no deal for a long time. They've been waiting and waiting for the British public to lose patience and just want it to be all over, then they draft their man in to do the deed without the normal 'checks and balances' that any self-respecting democracy should have. With a decent control of the message, all the deflection of "will of the people" and "traitors" have just pushed pepople further to the extremes whereby now some people think leaving with a no deal is actually the only way to give people what they voted for. If you'd said that before the referendum, or even in the months after the referendum you would've been called an idiot and an extremist. Now we're supposed to be believe 17m+ people all had the exact same idea of a post-Brexit Britiain when they put their 'x' in the box - imagine how unlikely 20,0000 Stoke fans agreeing on something is on a matchday, then times that by 850 and see if you believe it's realistic that all people would agree. The whole process has played into the hands of a few very well-connected, very wealthy string-pullers, and if it wasn't such an important issue then I'd say fair play to them on a well-planned, deviously-constructed plan. If we leave with a no deal, hopefully the initial disruption (of which there will be some) is not too much that it doesn't stop us re-building in the near future. I tend to think we will be at a low ebb when we're doing at the re-building, which is my main problem with leaving without a deal, but I hope I'm wrong. Anyway, this turned into a long one when it wasn't supposed to be. Given that I think we'll leave with no deal and you think we'll leave with a deal, it's fair to say that we can both agree in hoping that we're wrong. I don’t buy into your theory but I’ll go along with it for now for the discussion. So if, as you say, this is all part of a master plan by the extreme right of the Tory party, what is in it for them? Most of them are business owners, landowners, investors and other forms of wealthy individuals. If as some predict, we as a country will go down the shitter if we leave with no deal, why would the extreme right be promoting this when it is likely to damage their Businesses, their property values, damage their investments and damage just about everything else that they might hold dear. Why would they do this? Why do you think...
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 30, 2019 11:21:51 GMT
Wealthy people can create profit from chaos - it's the smaller people/companies that can't react quick enough. Put it this way, if it did go tits up (and I'm not saying it will) who do you think will be more affected - the rich or the poor? The poor/ unemployed are suffering more than the rich within the EU Within the world, not just the EU.
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Post by thingscouldbemarvellous on Aug 30, 2019 11:23:00 GMT
Even the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg thinks all this faux outrage is a load of old knicker wetting. She makes a number of excellent points in this weeks’ Brexitcast about it hardly being the ‘end of democracy itself’ and nothing like the ridiculous two month shut down they were on about before. Podcasts are a useful tool to get away from the hysteria of the print media especially in extraordinary times like this. I listen to about 9-10 different ones weekly from all sides of the political spectrum. Here is Brexitcast for this week if anyone is interested, featuring the comments of Laura Kuenssberg that I mentioned above www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07ltwmb
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Post by yeokel on Aug 30, 2019 11:26:25 GMT
I don’t buy into your theory but I’ll go along with it for now for the discussion. So if, as you say, this is all part of a master plan by the extreme right of the Tory party, what is in it for them? Most of them are business owners, landowners, investors and other forms of wealthy individuals. If as some predict, we as a country will go down the shitter if we leave with no deal, why would the extreme right be promoting this when it is likely to damage their Businesses, their property values, damage their investments and damage just about everything else that they might hold dear. Why would they do this? Wealthy people can create profit from chaos - it's the smaller people/companies that can't react quick enough. Put it this way, if it did go tits up (and I'm not saying it will) who do you think will be more affected - the rich or the poor? The poor are used to being poor and will cope one way or another. The rich, on the other hand, are not used to being less rich although, I would agree, they often have hidden means to fall back on. Let me turn your question around......... If it all goes wrong, who has the most to lose?
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Post by Davef on Aug 30, 2019 11:26:39 GMT
No, I'm asking how many days Parliament has had to scrutinise Boris Johnson's Brexit plans. Parliament has had 3 readings of various Withdrawal agreements in the last 3 years that have been comprehensively been defeated. I don't think any anyone would suggest that an agreement could be reached in 6 days or 6 months or 6 years. Time for a leader of the country to lead for a change. It's not just that they've rejected the Withdrawal Agreement three times. They voted overwhelmingly to hold the referendum in the first place. They voted by a 380-odd majority to invoke Article 50 after the referendum. In the indicative votes, they rejected a second referendum. They rejected membership of the single market and a customs union, and they rejected revoking Article 50. The only thing they've voted for is the Brady Amendment; pie in the sky bollocks which the EU will never entertain. They're back in Parliament next week and will apparently be trying to pass legislation to block a no-deal Brexit. Quite how they think they can manage that is anybody's guess. They only thing they can do, surely, is to instruct Johnson to go the EU and ask for another extension, which is highly unlikely to happen, given that he won't be going to Brussels with anything to offer. There's no way Macron will agree to it either, considering he didn't want to grant the March extension in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 11:28:03 GMT
Wealthy people can create profit from chaos - it's the smaller people/companies that can't react quick enough. Put it this way, if it did go tits up (and I'm not saying it will) who do you think will be more affected - the rich or the poor? The poor are used to being poor and will cope one way or another. The rich, on the other hand, are not used to being less rich although, I would agree, they often have hidden means to fall back on. Let me turn your question around......... If it all goes wrong, who has the most to lose? Go tell that to the kids that have been scavenging food out of bins all school holidays because they can't afford to eat with their school meals. I'm really sorry someone might not be able to by their third house, or fourth car or only take 3 holidays a year...
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 11:29:02 GMT
I suggest the people who think the eu cares about the unemployed and poor go read how the eu treated Greece!
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Post by lommack on Aug 30, 2019 11:29:25 GMT
Ay up Jack you don't give a monkey's what happens to other people as long as your little vanity project succeeds and you can come on here shouting in your echo chamber.
There was a woman on the radio this morning whose grandchild has cancer and the drugs he needs are manufactured in France and they have a very short shelf life so any delays at ports may mean the child could die. When asked if she thought Boris Johnson would be concerned her answer was " of course not Brexit is more important than anything in this country "
At the time I thought we'll never let this happen........then I read your post
Hypocrite?
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Post by Eggybread on Aug 30, 2019 11:30:58 GMT
Wealthy people can create profit from chaos - it's the smaller people/companies that can't react quick enough. Put it this way, if it did go tits up (and I'm not saying it will) who do you think will be more affected - the rich or the poor? The poor are used to being poor and will cope one way or another. The rich, on the other hand, are not used to being less rich although, I would agree, they often have hidden means to fall back on. Let me turn your question around......... If it all goes wrong, who has the most to lose? The poor.They pay with their jobs,homes and some with their lives.
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Post by yeokel on Aug 30, 2019 11:32:34 GMT
I don’t buy into your theory but I’ll go along with it for now for the discussion. So if, as you say, this is all part of a master plan by the extreme right of the Tory party, what is in it for them? Most of them are business owners, landowners, investors and other forms of wealthy individuals. If as some predict, we as a country will go down the shitter if we leave with no deal, why would the extreme right be promoting this when it is likely to damage their Businesses, their property values, damage their investments and damage just about everything else that they might hold dear. Why would they do this? Why do you think... Taking that question literally, I think because I can. Taking it as I suspect you mean it, I don’t believe the theory - as I said at the top of the post you’ve quoted.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 11:32:43 GMT
The poor/ unemployed are suffering more than the rich within the EU Who do you think have hurt the poor in Britain more, the EU or the Rich... And herein lies the problem, the Rich have told everyone its the EU when a lot of this is them. And I don't think the EU really care about the poor either. This is really two sets of rich people with fingers in different pies trying to protect their own interest and guess who is going to suffer for it...
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Post by yeokel on Aug 30, 2019 11:34:50 GMT
The poor are used to being poor and will cope one way or another. The rich, on the other hand, are not used to being less rich although, I would agree, they often have hidden means to fall back on. Let me turn your question around......... If it all goes wrong, who has the most to lose? The poor.They pay with their jobs,homes and some with their lives. I think that statement can apply to all.
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 11:37:15 GMT
Most of the super wealthy voted and campaigned to remain, many of them like the eu because they can afford to jump through the regulatory hoops and their competitors can’t. To say brexit is a project of the super rich is nonsense.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 30, 2019 11:38:30 GMT
The poor/ unemployed are suffering more than the rich within the EU Who do you think have hurt the poor in Britain more, the EU or the Rich... It's hard to draw lines between people / groups... most of the EU leaders are rich, many of the young unemployed in Greece, Spain Italy are poor. The rich in the EU haven't done a lot for them. Doing ok themselves though.
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Post by Davef on Aug 30, 2019 11:39:31 GMT
No you are not. Are Switzerland a member of the EU because they are part of Schenghen? No but when it comes to these arrangements there are various different models. Each with different restrictions on what can and can't be done what degree of EU control is retained. It's been three years and no-one has agreed on which one. It's always been the case that if a deal can't be agreed we leave with no deal. It's been 3 years. I think it's a daft idea personally right now but I can't sit and whinge about it because people were given a vote and this was the decision. The government have faffed around for 3 years. Treated the general public like they are all idiots. Everything has been about Brexit while loads of other things are going to shit - police, schools, social welfare etc. They've been an utter embarrassment but at the end of the day it's happen. As I said I haven't met a single Leave voter that doesn't think "Leave means leave". The people were given a vote to either leave or remain in the EU. What is misunderstood is that the people think they have a say in how we leave the EU.
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 30, 2019 11:41:49 GMT
Taking that question literally, I think because I can. Taking it as I suspect you mean it, I don’t believe the theory - as I said at the top of the post you’ve quoted. So do you think the Tory Right are on some sort of altruistic mission...
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Post by Eggybread on Aug 30, 2019 11:44:13 GMT
No but when it comes to these arrangements there are various different models. Each with different restrictions on what can and can't be done what degree of EU control is retained. It's been three years and no-one has agreed on which one. It's always been the case that if a deal can't be agreed we leave with no deal. It's been 3 years. I think it's a daft idea personally right now but I can't sit and whinge about it because people were given a vote and this was the decision. The government have faffed around for 3 years. Treated the general public like they are all idiots. Everything has been about Brexit while loads of other things are going to shit - police, schools, social welfare etc. They've been an utter embarrassment but at the end of the day it's happen. As I said I haven't met a single Leave voter that doesn't think "Leave means leave". The people were given a vote to either leave or remain in the EU. What is misunderstood is that the people think they have a say in how we leave the EU. For the millionth time 99% of the people were under the impression we would leave with a deal which we were told would be a piece of cake.
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Post by Davef on Aug 30, 2019 11:53:28 GMT
The people were given a vote to either leave or remain in the EU. What is misunderstood is that the people think they have a say in how we leave the EU. For the millionth time 99% of the people were under the impression we would leave with a deal which we were told would be a piece of cake. 100% not my point.
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Post by yeokel on Aug 30, 2019 12:00:50 GMT
Taking that question literally, I think because I can. Taking it as I suspect you mean it, I don’t believe the theory - as I said at the top of the post you’ve quoted. So do you think the Tory Right are on some sort of altruistic mission... No, I don’t believe they are. But nobody has yet told me why, as they are accused, they are promoting something that can only possibly do harm to their personal wealth and well being. I wouldn’t deny for a single moment that the wealthy work to make themselves wealthier. But I know a few pretty wealthy individuals, and I don’t think I know of one who specifically wants to make the poor poorer. Frankly, they don’t give a fuck about the poor as long as they are alright themselves. They don’t care whether the poor are poorer or the poor become slightly better off it doesn’t matter to them. And given that that is a bit too much of a generalisation I would say that I do know a few wealthy individuals who do care about the poor, do what they can to help them and do see some of the imbalance in the structure of today’s society.
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 12:09:56 GMT
So, according to Remainers brexit is going to be catastrophic for businesses but at the same time the rich, many of whom make their money through these businesses, are going to benefit greatly ? Can’t have it both ways.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 30, 2019 12:15:20 GMT
The people were given a vote to either leave or remain in the EU. What is misunderstood is that the people think they have a say in how we leave the EU. For the millionth time 99% of the people were under the impression we would leave with a deal which we were told would be a piece of cake. Not true
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 30, 2019 12:30:17 GMT
So do you think the Tory Right are on some sort of altruistic mission... No, I don’t believe they are. But nobody has yet told me why, as they are accused, they are promoting something that can only possibly do harm to their personal wealth and well being. I wouldn’t deny for a single moment that the wealthy work to make themselves wealthier. But I know a few pretty wealthy individuals, and I don’t think I know of one who specifically wants to make the poor poorer. Frankly, they don’t give a fuck about the poor as long as they are alright themselves. They don’t care whether the poor are poorer or the poor become slightly better off it doesn’t matter to them. And given that that is a bit too much of a generalisation I would say that I do know a few wealthy individuals who do care about the poor, do what they can to help them and do see some of the imbalance in the structure of today’s society. Workers once had power, now they have little, not in a small part down to Tory tactics to undermine them. Once we are out of any EU legislation, they’ll have even less. With the digitisation of the world, people will become more obsolete. If you live in a country that those who hold the power answer to no one, then it’s easy to subjugate people. It doesn’t necessarily matter about who holds the power now & what their motives are, it’s those that are coming in their wake. Margret hated the Wets, most of whom had served in the wars & had a bond to the common man. Now we have Thatchers children who have never been near serious hardship & view it as self inflicted. The next lot will revert to a Dickensian model, where the poor are just the poor. Moggy already plays the part🎩 How anyone can look at a bloke who has been dressing & talking like that all it’s life & think it’s normal is not seeing correctly. Moggy & De Pfeffel ffs!
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 12:45:28 GMT
No, I don’t believe they are. But nobody has yet told me why, as they are accused, they are promoting something that can only possibly do harm to their personal wealth and well being. I wouldn’t deny for a single moment that the wealthy work to make themselves wealthier. But I know a few pretty wealthy individuals, and I don’t think I know of one who specifically wants to make the poor poorer. Frankly, they don’t give a fuck about the poor as long as they are alright themselves. They don’t care whether the poor are poorer or the poor become slightly better off it doesn’t matter to them. And given that that is a bit too much of a generalisation I would say that I do know a few wealthy individuals who do care about the poor, do what they can to help them and do see some of the imbalance in the structure of today’s society. Workers once had power, now they have little, not in a small part down to Tory tactics to undermine them. Once we are out of any EU legislation, they’ll have even less. With the digitisation of the world, people will become more obsolete. If you live in a country that those who hold the power answer to no one, then it’s easy to subjugate people. It doesn’t necessarily matter about who holds the power now & what their motives are, it’s those that are coming in their wake. Margret hated the Wets, most of whom had served in the wars & had a bond to the common man. Now we have Thatchers children who have never been near serious hardship & view it as self inflicted. The next lot will revert to a Dickensian model, where the poor are just the poor. Moggy already plays the part🎩 How anyone can look at a bloke who has been dressing & talking like that all it’s life & think it’s normal is not seeing correctly. Moggy & De Pfeffel ffs! The eu isn’t great on workers rights, our laws on workers right are superior to anything the eu requires of a member, also we’ve had 8/9 years of Tory rule,where’s the workers right bombfire?
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Post by Eggybread on Aug 30, 2019 12:50:09 GMT
For the millionth time 99% of the people were under the impression we would leave with a deal which we were told would be a piece of cake. Not true Ill play along then whats not true this time?
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Post by Eggybread on Aug 30, 2019 12:53:33 GMT
Workers once had power, now they have little, not in a small part down to Tory tactics to undermine them. Once we are out of any EU legislation, they’ll have even less. With the digitisation of the world, people will become more obsolete. If you live in a country that those who hold the power answer to no one, then it’s easy to subjugate people. It doesn’t necessarily matter about who holds the power now & what their motives are, it’s those that are coming in their wake. Margret hated the Wets, most of whom had served in the wars & had a bond to the common man. Now we have Thatchers children who have never been near serious hardship & view it as self inflicted. The next lot will revert to a Dickensian model, where the poor are just the poor. Moggy already plays the part🎩 How anyone can look at a bloke who has been dressing & talking like that all it’s life & think it’s normal is not seeing correctly. Moggy & De Pfeffel ffs! The eu isn’t great on workers rights, our laws on workers right are superior to anything the eu requires of a member, also we’ve had 8/9 years of Tory rule,where’s the workers right bombfire? We haven't left yet,plus many of our rights have been forced upon our government from EU directives. Dont have time to explain as Im finishing work.I am also an employer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 12:54:21 GMT
Workers once had power, now they have little, not in a small part down to Tory tactics to undermine them. Once we are out of any EU legislation, they’ll have even less. With the digitisation of the world, people will become more obsolete. If you live in a country that those who hold the power answer to no one, then it’s easy to subjugate people. It doesn’t necessarily matter about who holds the power now & what their motives are, it’s those that are coming in their wake. Margret hated the Wets, most of whom had served in the wars & had a bond to the common man. Now we have Thatchers children who have never been near serious hardship & view it as self inflicted. The next lot will revert to a Dickensian model, where the poor are just the poor. Moggy already plays the part🎩 How anyone can look at a bloke who has been dressing & talking like that all it’s life & think it’s normal is not seeing correctly. Moggy & De Pfeffel ffs! The eu isn’t great on workers rights, our laws on workers right are superior to anything the eu requires of a member, also we’ve had 8/9 years of Tory rule,where’s the workers right bombfire? Because they haven't been able to put them on the bonfire yet because of the EU... You're right we do have good laws and did before the EU, we didn't get quite a few from the EU but the EU stops anyone changing them. Those rights that were hard won by the Trade Unions back in the day and we know what happened to the Trade Unions didn't we. A shell of their former selves so they aren't going to be able to protect you from then being sent up in flames!
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Post by algor on Aug 30, 2019 12:55:01 GMT
The people were given a vote to either leave or remain in the EU. What is misunderstood is that the people think they have a say in how we leave the EU. For the millionth time 99% of the people were under the impression we would leave with a deal which we were told would be a piece of cake. Care to substantiate that figure?
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Post by serpico on Aug 30, 2019 12:59:01 GMT
The eu isn’t great on workers rights, our laws on workers right are superior to anything the eu requires of a member, also we’ve had 8/9 years of Tory rule,where’s the workers right bombfire? Because they haven't been able to put them on the bonfire yet because of the EU... But they could have diminished them and still fallen within the requirements of the EUs workers rights, but they didn’t/haven’t.
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