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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 29, 2019 8:41:10 GMT
Democracy didn't stop in 2016. People have the right to continue to pursue their beliefs. It doesn't make them 'whining cows'. Do you think - even for a minute - that if the referendum had gone 48/52 the other way that would have been the end of the Leave campaign? Of course it wouldn't. Farage himself said before the referendum that if the result was close he would immediately start campaigning for a second referendum - and what's more - many on here who are now saying remainders should shut up (or who are 'whining cows' would be supporting him defending his democratic right to do so. So should we have referendums every 12 months? Farage would have said so had he lost.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 29, 2019 8:41:30 GMT
Will be a big day for some Conservatives if/when a vote of no confidence in the government comes - do they prefer guarenteed power or democracy?
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Post by salopstick on Aug 29, 2019 8:42:08 GMT
I want a referendum before every change any government makes on anything. This referendum wouldn't have happened at all if Cameron hadn't caved in to Farage. Or would have happened 10 year’s earlier if Blair honoured his pledge
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 29, 2019 8:47:39 GMT
Keep their pensions, yes that's such a lot compared to Germany, France etc. well less than half of France and a 1/4 of Germans pension. I think they've seen who the benefactors of the EU are, and it ain't them, it's the French and Italian farmers, the EU commissions, the 10,000 people earning more than our PM and £90k pensions, the Spanish and French fishermen etc. Germany contributes a lot more to the EU budget than the UK (20%+ of it in fact). I would also wager that they pay a lot more into their pension funds (including private pensions) than most people in the UK. In any case, this is another blame EU for the UK government not doing what it can. Why aren't leavers questioning where all these billions in no deal prep money is coming from? The money is and has been there to improve the NHS, pensions, public services. It's up to the local politicians to decide how to spend it. Nothing to do with the EU. There's a cartoon in the office of a Dutch colleague of mine in his office in Rotterdam. It shows the UK rowing into the Atlantic away from Europe with the caption "So who are we going to blame for our own failings now?" Seems some will have to start thinking quite hard about that very soon.
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2019 8:47:44 GMT
Keep their pensions, yes that's such a lot compared to Germany, France etc. well less than half of France and a 1/4 of Germans pension. I think they've seen who the benefactors of the EU are, and it ain't them, it's the French and Italian farmers, the EU commissions, the 10,000 people earning more than our PM and £90k pensions, the Spanish and French fishermen etc. The level at which UK pensions are set is a function of the UK government social care policy. It's got nothing to do with the EU. In the future outside the EU Duncan Smith is looking to erode them even further - setting a retirement age of 75. The amount of money we give to the EU has an impact on the amount of money we can use in our own country, so it is linked. IDS must be barking mad if he thinks he can do that and win an election after. It's not the right way to go anyway
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 29, 2019 8:49:49 GMT
The former de facto deputy prime minister David Lidington has joined those condemning prorogation describing it as an attempt to gag Parliament. Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme he said: “If this had been done by Labour government, Jacob Rees Mogg would have been leading the denunciations of it. Some of my Tory colleagues, who are cheering at the moment, would have been turning purple with rage. “It sets a very bad precedent for future governments. It’s a pretty good rule that if you are tempted to play around with parliamentary and constitutional procedure, is don’t do something that you wouldn’t want a government of a different party to do to you.” Lidington also questioned Johnson’s rationale for the move. He said: “If the only reason for this is to have time for the Queen speech, all that was necessary was for an announcement to be made saying that there would be a prorogation while parliament was in recess at the conferences, and we’d assemble for the Queen’s speech immediately after the conference season, you didn’t need the five weeks that’s propose. There’s a big difference between what happens in a parliamentary recess and a prorogation of Parliament because all parliamentary activity shuts down including committees. With a prorogation, if I put down a question to minister that is guillotined, it just falls away.” “We are approaching a really important deadline, we’ve got a big negotiation with the European Union. And we’ve got a deadline of the end of October, which could lead to a no deal. And we need to know more about the government’s preparations for that scenario and more about the negotiations as they continue because our constituents will be affected by those decisions. “Real people want answers and what’s happening under this proposal is parliament is being gagged. And people won’t be able to ask questions and hold ministers to account. I think that is wrong. “What prorogation does is prevent Parliament from sitting at all. And it prevents MPs from asking questions. It prevents many ministers from being held to account by parliamentary select committees. And I think that’s that is not a good way to do democracy.”Its my experience that real people see this for what it is, people who don't like Brexit and have done everything possible to stop a brexit of any kind crying foul that the PM is doing something that might actually result in brexit happening. Real people say you have had 3 years and did nothing, you took back control and couldn't agree exactly what could you do in those 4 lost days that can't be done now or if if was so important why didn't they cancel their 6 week holidays we all know the answer to that to quote Lord Ashcroft from yesterday "many politicians don’t have principles but have interests...and have principles when its in their interests...we have certainly seen that recently..."
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2019 8:53:24 GMT
I want a referendum before every change any government makes on anything. This referendum wouldn't have happened at all if Cameron hadn't caved in to Farage. I think you are forgetting that Blair promised us a referendum on the Lisbon treaty in his 2005 manifesto and then went back on his promise, the issue of EU membership has been at the fore since then and Cameron brought it to a head to think he could put it to bed, this goes back to Blair and then Brown who signed it.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 29, 2019 8:56:17 GMT
The former de facto deputy prime minister David Lidington has joined those condemning prorogation describing it as an attempt to gag Parliament. Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme he said: “If this had been done by Labour government, Jacob Rees Mogg would have been leading the denunciations of it. Some of my Tory colleagues, who are cheering at the moment, would have been turning purple with rage. “It sets a very bad precedent for future governments. It’s a pretty good rule that if you are tempted to play around with parliamentary and constitutional procedure, is don’t do something that you wouldn’t want a government of a different party to do to you.” Lidington also questioned Johnson’s rationale for the move. He said: “If the only reason for this is to have time for the Queen speech, all that was necessary was for an announcement to be made saying that there would be a prorogation while parliament was in recess at the conferences, and we’d assemble for the Queen’s speech immediately after the conference season, you didn’t need the five weeks that’s propose. There’s a big difference between what happens in a parliamentary recess and a prorogation of Parliament because all parliamentary activity shuts down including committees. With a prorogation, if I put down a question to minister that is guillotined, it just falls away.” “We are approaching a really important deadline, we’ve got a big negotiation with the European Union. And we’ve got a deadline of the end of October, which could lead to a no deal. And we need to know more about the government’s preparations for that scenario and more about the negotiations as they continue because our constituents will be affected by those decisions. “Real people want answers and what’s happening under this proposal is parliament is being gagged. And people won’t be able to ask questions and hold ministers to account. I think that is wrong. “What prorogation does is prevent Parliament from sitting at all. And it prevents MPs from asking questions. It prevents many ministers from being held to account by parliamentary select committees. And I think that’s that is not a good way to do democracy.”Its my experience that real people see this for what it is, people who don't like Brexit and have done everything possible to stop a brexit of any kind crying foul that the PM is doing something that might actually result in brexit happening. Real people say you have had 3 years and did nothing, you took back control and couldn't agree exactly what could you do in those 4 lost days that can't be done now or if if was so important why didn't they cancel their 6 week holidays we all know the answer to that to quote Lord Ashcroft from yesterday "many politicians don’t have principles but have interests...and have principles when its in their interests...we have certainly seen that recently..." Liddington is a remainer at heart but probably worked harder than anyone in Government to get May's deal through, fyd. He certainly has a cleaner record of trying to deliver 'a' Brext than Johnson or the ERG have up to this point. Arch Leavers have been moaning about Remain conspiracies all along, however it seems that the real conspiracy afoot is the one that sees us 'tumble out' with the hardest Brexit f all.
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 29, 2019 8:59:09 GMT
Is alll bollocks anyway . Remoaners all hiding behind their self righteous indignation. Democratic outrage 😤 When they all complain about the UK leaving without a deal what they actually mean is he UK is leaving per se , if we suddenly get a great deal from the EU it will never be good enough because he jus want it stopped That's bullshit mate. If we got what the leave campaign said we would then we wouldn't be in this mess and Brexit would already have happened. Likewise, leavers don't give fuck about the consequences of leaving the EU as long as we leave. Foster of course leavers give a fuck why wouldn't we care about consequences. The fact is we were given a choice by our government. A choice was made . Had remain won and maintained the status quo that would have been an end to it . Leave voters have very legitimate concerns with the EU why doesn't that seem to matter . All the hysteria we saw yesterday about democracy and will of the people was hypocrisy at it's finest
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 29, 2019 9:00:39 GMT
Germany contributes a lot more to the EU budget than the UK (20%+ of it in fact). I would also wager that they pay a lot more into their pension funds (including private pensions) than most people in the UK. In any case, this is another blame EU for the UK government not doing what it can. Why aren't leavers questioning where all these billions in no deal prep money is coming from? The money is and has been there to improve the NHS, pensions, public services. It's up to the local politicians to decide how to spend it. Nothing to do with the EU. There's a cartoon in the office of a Dutch colleague of mine in his office in Rotterdam. It shows the UK rowing into the Atlantic away from Europe with the caption "So who are we going to blame for our own failings now?" Seems some will have to start thinking quite hard about that very soon. I seem to be one of the few who actually liked Kitson so I wouldn't blame him. I think that he had a difficult job as lone striker in that Pulis team. With the right support I think that he would have done well. So that leaves: Cameron, Farage, Johnson, the Russians, Trump, and the thick working class. We could also blame " ourselves" because it is good to hate the UK.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 29, 2019 9:09:06 GMT
Germany contributes a lot more to the EU budget than the UK (20%+ of it in fact). I would also wager that they pay a lot more into their pension funds (including private pensions) than most people in the UK. In any case, this is another blame EU for the UK government not doing what it can. Why aren't leavers questioning where all these billions in no deal prep money is coming from? The money is and has been there to improve the NHS, pensions, public services. It's up to the local politicians to decide how to spend it. Nothing to do with the EU. There's a cartoon in the office of a Dutch colleague of mine in his office in Rotterdam. It shows the UK rowing into the Atlantic away from Europe with the caption "So who are we going to blame for our own failings now?" Seems some will have to start thinking quite hard about that very soon. If Brexit fails (still to be decided) then it will obviously be the fault of the people who did not vote for Brexit. That much is as clear as the Iraq War being Corbyn's fault for not voting for it at the time.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 29, 2019 9:15:28 GMT
Its my experience that real people see this for what it is, people who don't like Brexit and have done everything possible to stop a brexit of any kind crying foul that the PM is doing something that might actually result in brexit happening. Real people say you have had 3 years and did nothing, you took back control and couldn't agree exactly what could you do in those 4 lost days that can't be done now or if if was so important why didn't they cancel their 6 week holidays we all know the answer to that to quote Lord Ashcroft from yesterday "many politicians don’t have principles but have interests...and have principles when its in their interests...we have certainly seen that recently..." Liddington is a remainer at heart but probably worked harder than anyone in Government to get May's deal through, fyd. He certainly has a cleaner record of trying to deliver 'a' Brext than Johnson or the ERG have up to this point. Arch Leavers have been moaning about Remain conspiracies all along, however it seems that the real conspiracy afoot is the one that sees us 'tumble out' with the hardest Brexit f all. Worked to get a deal through that was the softest of softest brexits and failed, the one the Yannis whatshisface called the type of agreement that a country signs after losing a war, the one that had pretty much everything Labour wanted but they still whipped against. Its already been said many times this tumbling out is just nonsense, they are already many mini deals already agreed after that anything else can be negotiated or not as the EU wishes. The EU have said the WA can not be renegotiated, parliament will not approve it, Boris is testing the EU and if they say no we leave simple.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 9:31:13 GMT
Who's having a go at pensioners? You want f'ing mate!
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 29, 2019 9:33:22 GMT
Liddington is a remainer at heart but probably worked harder than anyone in Government to get May's deal through, fyd. He certainly has a cleaner record of trying to deliver 'a' Brext than Johnson or the ERG have up to this point. Arch Leavers have been moaning about Remain conspiracies all along, however it seems that the real conspiracy afoot is the one that sees us 'tumble out' with the hardest Brexit f all. Worked to get a deal through that was the softest of softest brexits and failed, the one the Yannis whatshisface called the type of agreement that a country signs after losing a war, the one that had pretty much everything Labour wanted but they still whipped against. Its already been said many times this tumbling out is just nonsense, they are already many mini deals already agreed after that anything else can be negotiated or not as the EU wishes. The EU have said the WA can not be renegotiated, parliament will not approve it, Boris is testing the EU and if they say no we leave simple. Hasn't Johnson just made sure there isn't sufficient time to properly agree any new deal from the EU? All smoke and mirrors that mate. He wont extend and he has shortened the time available to discuss a new deal. He hasn't the slightest intention or expectation of anything from the EU. He doesn't want a deal. This isn't a game of poker against the EU it is a game of poker against Parliament and the British public.
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Post by lommack on Aug 29, 2019 9:33:27 GMT
I want a referendum before every change any government makes on anything. This referendum wouldn't have happened at all if Cameron hadn't caved in to Farage. Perhaps all this is about saving the conservative party? Johnson will run with this blaming the eu the quizlings in the opposition parties and the remain supporting media. He knows if he gets a deal and then calls/ has to have an election he will lose because Farage will amack his arse because he (and small percentage of the Tory party) will only countenance a no deal exit This is about self preservation and absolutely nothing to do with the will of the people
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 29, 2019 9:34:25 GMT
I want a referendum before every change any government makes on anything. This referendum wouldn't have happened at all if Cameron hadn't caved in to Farage. Dunna matter why it happened NOW we have a precedent set allowing members of the public to vote on all tax changes, major infrastructure policy,where our brave members of the armed forces are deployed,who we trade with in fact everything any Goverment want to do. You can not pick and choose when it's right to intervene because it's not what you voted for!! Name one person who voted for tax to rise, for interest rates to rise, for the sale of housing, for HS2, for building aircraft carriers at a cost of billions. We vote for a government who make those decisions for US it seems now though it's fair game for me to run the country if I don't agree with what's going on at any given time.
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Post by thevoid on Aug 29, 2019 9:40:07 GMT
The mard arsed fcukers haven't stopped bitch crying for over 3 years because they haven't got their own way nothing new there, the difference is Boris is taking the bull by the horns and squeezing their bollocks now we now have a PM with the backbone and cabinet to make Brexit work for the majority that voted in a democratic referendum love it, next sort out immigration from outside the EU. Carps, any chance of you writing to the Queen to request a meeting and representing the views of the Oatcake? ( Perhaps take Sheikhy with you) If Julia Hartley-Brewer still wants one, I'm free this afternoon
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Post by maxplonk on Aug 29, 2019 9:42:52 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 29, 2019 9:48:49 GMT
If we do leave properly there will be alot of our people hoping that the UK fails ( and the strategy of the EU will to try to get us to fail, not honest competition/ cooperation)
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 29, 2019 9:56:46 GMT
If we do leave properly there will be alot of our people hoping that the UK fails ( and the strategy of the EU will to try to get us to fail, not honest competition/ cooperation) Probably true on the last point. Pity none of that came out in the referendum campaign where a deal would be 'the easiest thing in the world to achieve' according to the fat dictator.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 29, 2019 9:58:56 GMT
The level at which UK pensions are set is a function of the UK government social care policy. It's got nothing to do with the EU. In the future outside the EU Duncan Smith is looking to erode them even further - setting a retirement age of 75. That was quite clearly stated as false it's not policy it was a "think tank" who published that. So said James Cleverly. Who also said yesterday the prorogation of parliament was nothing to do with Brexit. The problem is if you lie some of the time people will disbelieve you all of the time.
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 29, 2019 10:02:15 GMT
The mard arsed fcukers haven't stopped bitch crying for over 3 years because they haven't got their own way nothing new there, the difference is Boris is taking the bull by the horns and squeezing their bollocks now we now have a PM with the backbone and cabinet to make Brexit work for the majority that voted in a democratic referendum love it, next sort out immigration from outside the EU. "next sort out immigration from outside the EU" The village racist appears again wearing his colours and proving he knows absolutely nothing about economics and capitalism. Why is sorting out immigration from outside the EU racist ? why should it not be controlled ? we already have the powers to do so just nobody with the backbone to implement them hopefully Bozzer and his team will have.
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Post by maxplonk on Aug 29, 2019 10:02:19 GMT
If we do leave properly there will be alot of our people hoping that the UK fails ( and the strategy of the EU will to try to get us to fail, not honest competition/ cooperation) The EU will probably try to get the best deal they can for the remaining member states - they have no more reason to be nice to us than the Americans do.
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 29, 2019 10:07:09 GMT
Hilarious that Gina Miller is still claiming she isn't trying to stop brexit 😗🙄🙄
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Post by yeokel on Aug 29, 2019 10:11:53 GMT
Germany contributes a lot more to the EU budget than the UK (20%+ of it in fact). I would also wager that they pay a lot more into their pension funds (including private pensions) than most people in the UK. In any case, this is another blame EU for the UK government not doing what it can. Why aren't leavers questioning where all these billions in no deal prep money is coming from? The money is and has been there to improve the NHS, pensions, public services. It's up to the local politicians to decide how to spend it. Nothing to do with the EU. There's a cartoon in the office of a Dutch colleague of mine in his office in Rotterdam. It shows the UK rowing into the Atlantic away from Europe with the caption "So who are we going to blame for our own failings now?" Seems some will have to start thinking quite hard about that very soon. The answer will consist of our politicians, ourselves, external events not under our control. The point being that two of the above three are under our control. We will either sink or swim. Nobody knows for certain which way it will go but, to a large extent, our destiny is in our own hands. Isn’t that the whole point of this? That we will fail or succeed by our own efforts. (and if we all get behind the UK, we can be a massive success) (and, for what it's worth, I think it will be the immigrant communities who drive us forward. We British seem to have become too complacent, too fat and too lazy, but to the immigrants I think our land is a relatively blank canvas and they have chosen to come here (most, not all) to improve their own prospects, their own lives and will, as a side effect, help improve our own too).
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 29, 2019 10:12:42 GMT
If we do leave properly there will be alot of our people hoping that the UK fails ( and the strategy of the EU will to try to get us to fail, not honest competition/ cooperation) The EU will probably try to get the best deal they can for the remaining member states - they have no more reason to be nice to us than the Americans do. Of course. But what im talking about is that they will go that extra mile especially for us, to make things difficult....if we are successful their project is at stake. They cannot accept that we just may be one country out of the 28 who thinks a bit differently and wants independence. As Rip has said , it is a German and French led EU who act in their own self interest.
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Post by yeokel on Aug 29, 2019 10:16:54 GMT
Its my experience that real people see this for what it is, people who don't like Brexit and have done everything possible to stop a brexit of any kind crying foul that the PM is doing something that might actually result in brexit happening. Real people say you have had 3 years and did nothing, you took back control and couldn't agree exactly what could you do in those 4 lost days that can't be done now or if if was so important why didn't they cancel their 6 week holidays we all know the answer to that to quote Lord Ashcroft from yesterday "many politicians don’t have principles but have interests...and have principles when its in their interests...we have certainly seen that recently..." Liddington is a remainer at heart but probably worked harder than anyone in Government to get May's deal through, fyd. He certainly has a cleaner record of trying to deliver 'a' Brext than Johnson or the ERG have up to this point. Arch Leavers have been moaning about Remain conspiracies all along, however it seems that the real conspiracy afoot is the one that sees us 'tumble out' with the hardest Brexit f all. “ Liddington is a remainer at heart but probably worked harder than anyone in Government to get May's deal through” Well of course he did – It was remain in all but name. I’m sure you know that really.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 29, 2019 10:19:30 GMT
That was quite clearly stated as false it's not policy it was a "think tank" who published that. So said James Cleverly. Who also said yesterday the prorogation of parliament was nothing to do with Brexit. The problem is if you lie some of the time people will disbelieve you all of the time. Have only leavers lied or been economical with the truth? I'm sure I was told by George Osbourne a recession was coming before the 2016 vote..... still waiting.
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Post by xchpotter on Aug 29, 2019 10:25:24 GMT
If we do leave properly there will be alot of our people hoping that the UK fails ( and the strategy of the EU will to try to get us to fail, not honest competition/ cooperation) You are right. Throughout this I still don’t understand why so many people in this country are desperate for the UK to fail....it’s just very,very weird. I get the rest of Europe will want us to fail as we become potential competitors and a dried up market as well being a threat to the cosy club if Brexit brings success, but what has the country done to those living here to make them to have this intense dislike and wish to see failure....is it just so they can say I told you so? It’s a bit like those who want Stoke to lose like we had in the Pulis and more recently Rowett eras.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 29, 2019 10:38:38 GMT
Liddington is a remainer at heart but probably worked harder than anyone in Government to get May's deal through, fyd. He certainly has a cleaner record of trying to deliver 'a' Brext than Johnson or the ERG have up to this point. Arch Leavers have been moaning about Remain conspiracies all along, however it seems that the real conspiracy afoot is the one that sees us 'tumble out' with the hardest Brexit f all. “ Liddington is a remainer at heart but probably worked harder than anyone in Government to get May's deal through” Well of course he did – It was remain in all but name. I’m sure you know that really. Interesting, so the only vision of Brexit is in fact the heinous ERG's. I think we know what the real conspiracy afoot has been all along with the Fat Dictator don't we.
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