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Post by Eggybread on Aug 29, 2019 6:10:53 GMT
So the Queen has just given her consent for Johnson to prorogue Parliament - In my view such an order, enacted by a constitutional figurehead on behalf of a prime minister with no popular mandate, has no more historical legitimacy than it did in 1642 and Parliament should ignore the Queen’s instructions, as they did those of Charles 1, and continue to sit throughout September at this moment of crisis
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 29, 2019 6:13:01 GMT
There is a map of the people who have petitioned against the proposed shutting of parliament.It shows where the people live who have voted.Does anyone have any theories why the poorest parts of the nation are the areas least represented. Some areas of the country tried to represent themselves in the 80/90’s & were promptly slapped down. What’s happening now isn’t real representation. It’s just the dying throws of lame beast.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 29, 2019 6:16:00 GMT
Well yesterday was an interesting day wasn’t it.
I wonder what today will bring.
Will there be something more solid from Johnson’s opponents than the howls of outrage they produced yesterday. I’m sure they will find something substantive to hit back with - maybe cancel the conference season?
The battle over proroguing of Parliament has only just begun.
The thing to remember is that it is just that, a battle; it ain’t the war. I rather suspect Johnson doesn’t care much if he loses this battle. The reason being he is setting himself up as the man fighting for Brexit against his opponents who are fighting to kill Brexit.
He is defining the battle lines for which there is no middle ground - which is where Corbyn has placed Labour. His plan, in the event Parliament finds a way to stop Brexit on 31/10, is to fight a GE on that single issue.
How that turns out is anyone’s guess. At least there will be clarity around what the choices are. Which I guess most everyone would welcome.
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2019 6:52:06 GMT
I see they've rolled out that whining cow Gina Miller As has been mentioned previously, you can always tell an argument is lost when attacks are made on individuals rather than issues. There's no argument, just a statement
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 29, 2019 6:59:07 GMT
I see they've rolled out that whining cow Gina Miller As has been mentioned previously, you can always tell an argument is lost when attacks are made on individuals rather than issues. Not necessarily. Gina Miller will not accept the democratic outcome of the 2016 referendum. She is doing everything she can to change it. By doing so she is denying 17.4 million people their democratic rights. Hence, the criticism.
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Post by Eggybread on Aug 29, 2019 7:02:51 GMT
Parliament recent closures 2016 - 15th Sep to 10 Oct 2017 - 14th Sep to 9th Oct 2018 - 13th Sep to 9th Oct 2019 - 9th Sep to 14th Oct (possibly) so why all the moaning and abhorent wailing from someting that has happened pretty much the same the last few years ? The mard arsed fcukers haven't stopped bitch crying for over 3 years because they haven't got their own way nothing new there, the difference is Boris is taking the bull by the horns and squeezing their bollocks now we now have a PM with the backbone and cabinet to make Brexit work for the majority that voted in a democratic referendum love it, next sort out immigration from outside the EU. "next sort out immigration from outside the EU" The village racist appears again wearing his colours and proving he knows absolutely nothing about economics and capitalism.
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2019 7:07:08 GMT
So the Queen has just given her consent for Johnson to prorogue Parliament - In my view such an order, enacted by a constitutional figurehead on behalf of a prime minister with no popular mandate, has no more historical legitimacy than it did in 1642 and Parliament should ignore the Queen’s instructions, as they did those of Charles 1, and continue to sit throughout September at this moment of crisis It has been done many times since, Labour set a precedent in 1948 to get a bill through, john Major did it in 1997 to stop scrutiny of expenses before a general election.
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2019 7:08:56 GMT
The BBC are full on remainiac outside Parliament, had to turn it over again.
even George Galloway agrees with Boris, watched a news story with him being interviewed
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Post by Eggybread on Aug 29, 2019 7:13:52 GMT
So the Queen has just given her consent for Johnson to prorogue Parliament - In my view such an order, enacted by a constitutional figurehead on behalf of a prime minister with no popular mandate, has no more historical legitimacy than it did in 1642 and Parliament should ignore the Queen’s instructions, as they did those of Charles 1, and continue to sit throughout September at this moment of crisis It has been done many times since, Labour set a precedent in 1948 to get a bill through, john Major did it in 1997 to stop scrutiny of expenses before a general election. I did make it sound more dramatic though,cmon.
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Post by musik on Aug 29, 2019 7:18:25 GMT
I have no idea. Is Boris J a bit politically like Trump? Someone told me that yesterday.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 29, 2019 7:20:44 GMT
The BBC are full on remainiac outside Parliament, had to turn it over again. even George Galloway agrees with Boris, watched a news story with him being interviewed Galloway also defended China over Hong Kong last week. He's also defended Gadafi and a load of other Dictators.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 29, 2019 7:24:27 GMT
The BBC are full on remainiac outside Parliament, had to turn it over again. even George Galloway agrees with Boris, watched a news story with him being interviewed Galloway was defending China over Hong Kong last week. Big mate of Gadafi's as well. And Saddam..... He kinda likes dictators.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 29, 2019 7:29:07 GMT
The former de facto deputy prime minister David Lidington has joined those condemning prorogation describing it as an attempt to gag Parliament.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme he said: “If this had been done by Labour government, Jacob Rees Mogg would have been leading the denunciations of it. Some of my Tory colleagues, who are cheering at the moment, would have been turning purple with rage.
“It sets a very bad precedent for future governments. It’s a pretty good rule that if you are tempted to play around with parliamentary and constitutional procedure, is don’t do something that you wouldn’t want a government of a different party to do to you.” Lidington also questioned Johnson’s rationale for the move. He said: “If the only reason for this is to have time for the Queen speech, all that was necessary was for an announcement to be made saying that there would be a prorogation while parliament was in recess at the conferences, and we’d assemble for the Queen’s speech immediately after the conference season, you didn’t need the five weeks that’s propose. There’s a big difference between what happens in a parliamentary recess and a prorogation of Parliament because all parliamentary activity shuts down including committees. With a prorogation, if I put down a question to minister that is guillotined, it just falls away.” “We are approaching a really important deadline, we’ve got a big negotiation with the European Union. And we’ve got a deadline of the end of October, which could lead to a no deal. And we need to know more about the government’s preparations for that scenario and more about the negotiations as they continue because our constituents will be affected by those decisions. “Real people want answers and what’s happening under this proposal is parliament is being gagged. And people won’t be able to ask questions and hold ministers to account. I think that is wrong. “What prorogation does is prevent Parliament from sitting at all. And it prevents MPs from asking questions. It prevents many ministers from being held to account by parliamentary select committees. And I think that’s that is not a good way to do democracy.”
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 29, 2019 7:29:27 GMT
Also underlines it was a vote for the past rather than one for the future. Or a vote of experience over youthful brain washing from the magical unicorn money tree? That will be the same money tree that Javid will be unveiling next week as well no doubt. With an estimated 150 million additional customs transactions in the event if a No Deal perhaps some if these over 65's would like to offer up their services as customs clerks in return for keeping their pensions. All in the national interest of course. It's easy enough to vote for nostalgia if you're not going to feel any of the direct consequence of doing so.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 29, 2019 7:34:03 GMT
The former de facto deputy prime minister David Lidington has joined those condemning prorogation describing it as an attempt to gag Parliament. Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme he said: “If this had been done by Labour government, Jacob Rees Mogg would have been leading the denunciations of it. Some of my Tory colleagues, who are cheering at the moment, would have been turning purple with rage. “It sets a very bad precedent for future governments. It’s a pretty good rule that if you are tempted to play around with parliamentary and constitutional procedure, is don’t do something that you wouldn’t want a government of a different party to do to you.” Lidington also questioned Johnson’s rationale for the move. He said: “If the only reason for this is to have time for the Queen speech, all that was necessary was for an announcement to be made saying that there would be a prorogation while parliament was in recess at the conferences, and we’d assemble for the Queen’s speech immediately after the conference season, you didn’t need the five weeks that’s propose. There’s a big difference between what happens in a parliamentary recess and a prorogation of Parliament because all parliamentary activity shuts down including committees. With a prorogation, if I put down a question to minister that is guillotined, it just falls away.” “We are approaching a really important deadline, we’ve got a big negotiation with the European Union. And we’ve got a deadline of the end of October, which could lead to a no deal. And we need to know more about the government’s preparations for that scenario and more about the negotiations as they continue because our constituents will be affected by those decisions. “Real people want answers and what’s happening under this proposal is parliament is being gagged. And people won’t be able to ask questions and hold ministers to account. I think that is wrong. “What prorogation does is prevent Parliament from sitting at all. And it prevents MPs from asking questions. It prevents many ministers from being held to account by parliamentary select committees. And I think that’s that is not a good way to do democracy.”The thing is Momo, if you voted remain you will see this as a democratic outrage. If you voted leave you will see it as the only way of leaving the EU given that Parliament have blocked all other options. Who won the referendum?
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Post by 4372 on Aug 29, 2019 7:37:46 GMT
As has been mentioned previously, you can always tell an argument is lost when attacks are made on individuals rather than issues. Not necessarily. Gina Miller will not accept the democratic outcome of the 2016 referendum. She is doing everything she can to change it. By doing so she is denying 17.4 million people their democratic rights. Hence, the criticism. The criticism is couched in uncomplimentary terms though isn't it? If you want to make the point about the issue,that's fine, but to call someone a "whining cow" just because you do not agree with their view is blatantly over the top. The lady happens to be very successful in her chosen field. As far as I remember, when the Referendum result was announced, David Davis made it clear that he wanted no meaningful Parliamentary intervention in the process. Gina Miller simply stopped that unconstitutional threat through the courts.
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2019 7:38:23 GMT
Or a vote of experience over youthful brain washing from the magical unicorn money tree? That will be the same money tree that Javid will be unveiling next week as well no doubt. With an estimated 150 million additional customs transactions in the event if a No Deal perhaps some if these over 65's would like to offer up their services as customs clerks in return for keeping their pensions. All in the national interest of course. It's easy enough to vote for nostalgia if you're not going to feel any of the direct consequence of doing so. Keep their pensions, yes that's such a lot compared to Germany, France etc. well less than half of France and a 1/4 of Germans pension. I think they've seen who the benefactors of the EU are, and it ain't them, it's the French and Italian farmers, the EU commissions, the 10,000 people earning more than our PM and £90k pensions, the Spanish and French fishermen etc.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 29, 2019 7:38:27 GMT
As has been mentioned previously, you can always tell an argument is lost when attacks are made on individuals rather than issues. Not necessarily. Gina Miller will not accept the democratic outcome of the 2016 referendum. She is doing everything she can to change it. By doing so she is denying 17.4 million people their democratic rights. Hence, the criticism. Democracy didn't stop in 2016. People have the right to continue to pursue their beliefs. It doesn't make them 'whining cows'. Do you think - even for a minute - that if the referendum had gone 48/52 the other way that would have been the end of the Leave campaign? Of course it wouldn't. Farage himself said before the referendum that if the result was close he would immediately start campaigning for a second referendum - and what's more - many on here who are now saying remainders should shut up (or who are 'whining cows' would be supporting him defending his democratic right to do so.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 29, 2019 7:40:00 GMT
Not necessarily. Gina Miller will not accept the democratic outcome of the 2016 referendum. She is doing everything she can to change it. By doing so she is denying 17.4 million people their democratic rights. Hence, the criticism. Democracy didn't stop in 2016. People have the right to continue to pursue their beliefs. It doesn't make them 'whining cows'. Do you think - even for a minute - that if the referendum had gone 48/52 the other way that would have been the end of the Leave campaign? Of course it wouldn't. Farage himself said before the referendum that if the result was close he would immediately start campaigning for a second referendum - and what's more - many on here who are now saying remainders should shut up (or who are 'whining cows' would be supporting him defending his democratic right to do so. So should we have referendums every 12 months?
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Post by Northy on Aug 29, 2019 7:41:16 GMT
The former de facto deputy prime minister David Lidington has joined those condemning prorogation describing it as an attempt to gag Parliament. Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme he said: “If this had been done by Labour government, Jacob Rees Mogg would have been leading the denunciations of it. Some of my Tory colleagues, who are cheering at the moment, would have been turning purple with rage. “It sets a very bad precedent for future governments. It’s a pretty good rule that if you are tempted to play around with parliamentary and constitutional procedure, is don’t do something that you wouldn’t want a government of a different party to do to you.” Lidington also questioned Johnson’s rationale for the move. He said: “If the only reason for this is to have time for the Queen speech, all that was necessary was for an announcement to be made saying that there would be a prorogation while parliament was in recess at the conferences, and we’d assemble for the Queen’s speech immediately after the conference season, you didn’t need the five weeks that’s propose. There’s a big difference between what happens in a parliamentary recess and a prorogation of Parliament because all parliamentary activity shuts down including committees. With a prorogation, if I put down a question to minister that is guillotined, it just falls away.” “We are approaching a really important deadline, we’ve got a big negotiation with the European Union. And we’ve got a deadline of the end of October, which could lead to a no deal. And we need to know more about the government’s preparations for that scenario and more about the negotiations as they continue because our constituents will be affected by those decisions. “Real people want answers and what’s happening under this proposal is parliament is being gagged. And people won’t be able to ask questions and hold ministers to account. I think that is wrong. “What prorogation does is prevent Parliament from sitting at all. And it prevents MPs from asking questions. It prevents many ministers from being held to account by parliamentary select committees. And I think that’s that is not a good way to do democracy.”We havent had a precedent like Brexit before though, 3 years of trying to stop a democratic vote and an attempted coup this week to oust the PM, I'm sure that won't happen every few years.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 29, 2019 7:41:18 GMT
Not necessarily. Gina Miller will not accept the democratic outcome of the 2016 referendum. She is doing everything she can to change it. By doing so she is denying 17.4 million people their democratic rights. Hence, the criticism. The criticism is couched in uncomplimentary terms though isn't it? If you want to make the point about the issue,that's fine, but to call someone a "whining cow" just because you do not agree with their view is blatantly over the top. The lady happens to be very successful in her chosen field. As far as I remember, when the Referendum result was announced, David Davis made it clear that he wanted no meaningful Parliamentary intervention in the process. Gina Miller simply stopped that unconstitutional threat through the courts. Personal insults are never acceptable. Point conceded.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 29, 2019 7:42:45 GMT
That will be the same money tree that Javid will be unveiling next week as well no doubt. With an estimated 150 million additional customs transactions in the event if a No Deal perhaps some if these over 65's would like to offer up their services as customs clerks in return for keeping their pensions. All in the national interest of course. It's easy enough to vote for nostalgia if you're not going to feel any of the direct consequence of doing so. Keep their pensions, yes that's such a lot compared to Germany, France etc. well less than half of France and a 1/4 of Germans pension. I think they've seen who the benefactors of the EU are, and it ain't them, it's the French and Italian farmers, the EU commissions, the 10,000 people earning more than our PM and £90k pensions, the Spanish and French fishermen etc. The level at which UK pensions are set is a function of the UK government social care policy. It's got nothing to do with the EU. In the future outside the EU Duncan Smith is looking to erode them even further - setting a retirement age of 75.
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Post by Eggybread on Aug 29, 2019 7:51:04 GMT
Keep their pensions, yes that's such a lot compared to Germany, France etc. well less than half of France and a 1/4 of Germans pension. I think they've seen who the benefactors of the EU are, and it ain't them, it's the French and Italian farmers, the EU commissions, the 10,000 people earning more than our PM and £90k pensions, the Spanish and French fishermen etc. The level at which UK pensions are set is a function of the UK government social care policy. It's got nothing to do with the EU. In the future outside the EU Duncan Smith is looking to erode them even further - setting a retirement age of 75. Well thats something to look forward to seeing as S-O-T has one of the lowest life expectancy in the country (76 men )
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 29, 2019 7:57:38 GMT
Keep their pensions, yes that's such a lot compared to Germany, France etc. well less than half of France and a 1/4 of Germans pension. I think they've seen who the benefactors of the EU are, and it ain't them, it's the French and Italian farmers, the EU commissions, the 10,000 people earning more than our PM and £90k pensions, the Spanish and French fishermen etc. The level at which UK pensions are set is a function of the UK government social care policy. It's got nothing to do with the EU. In the future outside the EU Duncan Smith is looking to erode them even further - setting a retirement age of 75. That was quite clearly stated as false it's not policy it was a "think tank" who published that.
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Post by foster on Aug 29, 2019 8:03:12 GMT
Is alll bollocks anyway . Remoaners all hiding behind their self righteous indignation. Democratic outrage 😤 When they all complain about the UK leaving without a deal what they actually mean is he UK is leaving per se , if we suddenly get a great deal from the EU it will never be good enough because he jus want it stopped That's bullshit mate. If we got what the leave campaign said we would then we wouldn't be in this mess and Brexit would already have happened. Likewise, leavers don't give fuck about the consequences of leaving the EU as long as we leave.
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 29, 2019 8:05:55 GMT
Democracy didn't stop in 2016. People have the right to continue to pursue their beliefs. It doesn't make them 'whining cows'. Do you think - even for a minute - that if the referendum had gone 48/52 the other way that would have been the end of the Leave campaign? Of course it wouldn't. Farage himself said before the referendum that if the result was close he would immediately start campaigning for a second referendum - and what's more - many on here who are now saying remainders should shut up (or who are 'whining cows' would be supporting him defending his democratic right to do so. So should we have referendums every 12 months? I want a referendum before every change any government makes on anything.
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Post by Eggybread on Aug 29, 2019 8:15:49 GMT
So should we have referendums every 12 months? I want a referendum before every change any government makes on anything. This referendum wouldn't have happened at all if Cameron hadn't caved in to Farage.
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Post by foster on Aug 29, 2019 8:19:07 GMT
That will be the same money tree that Javid will be unveiling next week as well no doubt. With an estimated 150 million additional customs transactions in the event if a No Deal perhaps some if these over 65's would like to offer up their services as customs clerks in return for keeping their pensions. All in the national interest of course. It's easy enough to vote for nostalgia if you're not going to feel any of the direct consequence of doing so. Keep their pensions, yes that's such a lot compared to Germany, France etc. well less than half of France and a 1/4 of Germans pension. I think they've seen who the benefactors of the EU are, and it ain't them, it's the French and Italian farmers, the EU commissions, the 10,000 people earning more than our PM and £90k pensions, the Spanish and French fishermen etc. Germany contributes a lot more to the EU budget than the UK (20%+ of it in fact). I would also wager that they pay a lot more into their pension funds (including private pensions) than most people in the UK. In any case, this is another blame EU for the UK government not doing what it can. Why aren't leavers questioning where all these billions in no deal prep money is coming from? The money is and has been there to improve the NHS, pensions, public services. It's up to the local politicians to decide how to spend it. Nothing to do with the EU.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 29, 2019 8:19:41 GMT
I want a referendum before every change any government makes on anything. This referendum wouldn't have happened at all if Cameron hadn't caved in to Farage. Yes , Farage has been brilliant hasn't he? Probably the most influential UK politician of the 21st century to date. Piers the Remainer seems to be taking a more honest level headed view.
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Post by thevoid on Aug 29, 2019 8:40:09 GMT
I see they've rolled out that whining cow Gina Miller As has been mentioned previously, you can always tell an argument is lost when attacks are made on individuals rather than issues. Can't you just
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