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Post by Clayton Wood on Mar 21, 2019 11:39:11 GMT
If you believe the EU, and you evidently do, there is only one deal which they will ratify. The one presented and rejected twice in the House. It's not May's deal in as far it's an isolationist piece of work, it has outline agreement with the EU, subject to ratification by the other 27 member states. As far as other deals, if you recall when Sturgeon went to see the EU negotiators she was sent away as they would only deal with the Head of State (May and her advisers). So, as many monkeys could turn up as you like, but the EU will only deal with one organ grinder. Now, if you are saying May set off down the wrong track in the first place (a Remainer trying to flannel a deal) and it's a bad deal for us, then I would agree. What is failing to be resolved now should have been sorted out before A50 was triggered, but with the exception of the minor parties and 48 Labour MP's they were evidently happy to trigger first and ask questions later. I don't particularly believe the EU - I don't believe what politicians or political organisations say in general unless they've got some evidence to back it up, or if there actions match their words. I've said before (I think on this thread) that clearly parliament should've been involved in the negotiating stages - maybe voting on what the red lines should be, or at the very least keeping the incompetent May in check along the way. Clearly that would've resulted in May bringing back a deal that was more palatable than the current one. In fairness I've said this in hindsight, and I'm not sure it would've been as a big a problem if May had brought back an acceptable deal. I don't think she set off on the wrong track trying to ruin Brexit, in fact all the time-wasting and shite negotiating has brought us closer to the ERG wet dream of a no deal. I've said for quite some time that she is stalling in order to get a no deal Brexit by accident - one she can complain about and blame on the EU, thus ridding herself of all blame (which she's currently trying to do by pushing the blame on MPs). I think we're fairly close to the point where the EU may decide that we leave with no deal, as they're becoming sick and tired of May's constant waiting, and Parliaments refusal to fuck her off - this, in my opinion, has been the desired end game for quite a while now. Should Parliament have refused to trigger A50 without guarantees that they would've had an element of control over the negotiations? Perhaps. Although I don't believe A50 would've even been triggered in that case, which would've 100% killed Brexit (as opposed to the small chance of Brexit not happening that currently exists). Not much to argue with there. I'm a political prostitute and my vote goes to whoever does the best for numero uno*. Hence over the years I've voted Labour, Conservative and Ukip, last time I returned a blank ballot paper. The one thing I keep coming back to is accountability. When this lot is over, however it ends up, I'll have one voice in millions at the ballot box. When an EU directive fucked my wife's business over I had no say (directly). *Including Mrs numero uno & numero uno jnr.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 21, 2019 11:46:32 GMT
Quite correct Ray. From the outset we should have negotiated from the stance of an independent sovereign country and not as a member state frightened to leave, who didn't really want to leave and whose negotiators were in fact not really trying to leave but trying to stay in, make it easier to rejoin in the future or trying to appease a different country ( the EU). As many have said we should have left first and negotiated a deal afterwards ( if the EU would not negotiate a BREXIT in good faith)....two different things. That was never ever an option. Michel Barnier openly stated that trade talks wouldn't begin until we had left the EU. They can't and wouldn't negotiate a trade deal with a member nation. This is basic stuff. Yes , I know that's why I said that we should LEAVE FIRST then NEGOTIATE A DEAL.... that's basic as well....and we don't need the EU's ' permission" to leave. If they ( or us as an independent Sovereign country) then want to negotiate in good faith it is up to each party. A trading agreement ( deal) is a different issue from the question of being in or out of the EU). WE don't even HAVE to have a deal, not compulsory.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Mar 21, 2019 11:57:02 GMT
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Post by thevoid on Mar 21, 2019 12:03:57 GMT
And i speak as someone who loves cake... But not the Edit function...
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 21, 2019 12:12:03 GMT
How has May pitched public opinion against Parliament? They have done that themselves!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 12:18:37 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 21, 2019 12:19:14 GMT
The vote to trigger Article 50 was taken on 1/2/17 and was in favour of commencing the 2 year negotiations by 498 to 114. The SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats opposed the bill, while 47 Labour MPs and Tory ex-chancellor Ken Clarke rebelled. With the mandate given by the House A50 was triggered on 29/3/17 which set the leave date 2 years later. Now, all those that voted for A50, including all but 47 Labour MP's either didn't know what they were voting for or didn't care. This is where the root of today's issue lies. What they have done is try to stay to their belief in remain but appear to the majority that they will honour the vote What they ALL should have done was say we accept leave and will do everything we can to make it a success The party leaders should have reaffirmed this What he had was a two year bickering row which allowed the EU to present what ever sort of deal they wanted Fucking spineless all of them That's right. There has never been real will behind Brexit in the Commons. We could have been out ages ago if there had been.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 21, 2019 12:55:21 GMT
I see that the mard arses are now petitioning parliament to revoke Article 50. As if they need any encouragement.
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Post by essexstokey on Mar 21, 2019 12:55:56 GMT
link a Link to the petition to revoke article 50 over 86000 since its start this morning in fact so many people wanted to sign it the government web site went down (now back up)
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Mar 21, 2019 13:02:05 GMT
link a Link to the petition to revoke article 50 over 86000 since its start this morning in fact so many people wanted to sign it the government web site went down (now back up)
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 21, 2019 13:57:42 GMT
link a Link to the petition to revoke article 50 over 86000 since its start this morning in fact so many people wanted to sign it the government web site went down (now back up) I don't think the petition will change anything, and I don't agree with it. However, the vast majority of the signatures are from the UK - around 96%. Assuming all the foreign signatures are dodgy (which will not be the case as some of them will be from British immigrants), the current total is 896,355.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 21, 2019 14:09:29 GMT
Macron has just said that he will vote against a long extension if MV3 fails next week and the UK will be leaving with no deal on the 29th.
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Post by shangamuzo on Mar 21, 2019 14:11:41 GMT
Macron has just said that he will vote against a long extension if MV3 fails next week and the UK will be leaving with no deal on the 29th. So let's leave on no deal then.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 21, 2019 14:14:58 GMT
Macron has just said that he will vote against a long extension if MV3 fails next week and the UK will be leaving with no deal on the 29th. So let's leave on no deal then. Well MV3 isn't going to go through, so unless Macron is bluffing, that's what's going to happen. Of course, unless parliament revokes article 50 at the 11th hour.
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Post by shangamuzo on Mar 21, 2019 14:17:56 GMT
So let's leave on no deal then. Well MV3 isn't going to go through, so unless Macron is bluffing, that's what's going to happen. Of course, unless parliament revokes article 50 at the 11th hour. You can forget revocation, no chance of that. Absolutely none.
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Post by wagsastokie on Mar 21, 2019 14:21:49 GMT
Don’t hold your breath for a no deal As the cheese eating surender monkey macron will bottle it at the last moment and agree a extension
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Post by Clayton Wood on Mar 21, 2019 14:32:43 GMT
Whichever way it goes you can still shit yourself
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 21, 2019 14:34:36 GMT
Whichever way it goes you can still shit yourself Surely with or without the EU we were always guaranteed the ability to shit ourselves. This news just means that the clean up process will be adequate.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Mar 21, 2019 14:42:29 GMT
Whichever way it goes you can still shit yourself Surely with or without the EU we were always guaranteed the ability to shit ourselves. This news just means that the clean up process will be adequate. It may already be too late for some
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 21, 2019 15:19:16 GMT
Surely with or without the EU we were always guaranteed the ability to shit ourselves. This news just means that the clean up process will be adequate. It may already be too late for some Have Pampers given us a Brexit update yet?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 21, 2019 15:21:52 GMT
Maybe I'm putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 but I've just seen a clip of Amber Rudd being doorstepped this morning.
Recently she's been pretty tight lipped when getting in to her car but when asked what did she think of "the prime minister pitching MP's against the public in her speach", she replied ...
"I don't see it like that, I think all MP'S have a responsibility and a need to make sure that we avoid no deal and we all should be trying to do that."
Hang on sec, isn't this the same Amber Rudd who a fortnight ago was threatening to resign, along with Clarke and Gauke if 'no deal' wasn't taken off the table and now she's trying to use it as a stick to get MP'S to vote for MV3?
I can't believe for a minute she'd be doing this if she genuinely thought it was a possibility, indeed wouldn't she now be going batshit mental if actually there was a genuine likelihood that it was about to happen it 8 days time?
Hence the 2+2 = 5, has she already been assured of some alternative plan that is going to take place if/when MV3 goes down?
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Post by redstriper on Mar 21, 2019 15:26:53 GMT
May has been busy blaming everyone in parliament except herself.
The last remaining sliver of respect I had for her is gone. She talks about democracy and yet didn't want even the elected representatives to have a say on the deal, now its apparently their fault for exposing it as the rancid pile of shit that it is.
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Post by shakermaker on Mar 21, 2019 15:27:46 GMT
Well MV3 isn't going to go through, so unless Macron is bluffing, that's what's going to happen. Of course, unless parliament revokes article 50 at the 11th hour. You can forget revocation, no chance of that. Absolutely none. What makes you so sure? This loopy petition that Remoaners are spunking over at the moment could end up being debated in Parliament. MPs are so desperate not to leave the EU, they may push the red button and vote to revoke.
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 21, 2019 15:33:15 GMT
May achieved something that many have never been able to do. Brought workers and bosses together in common agreement.
TUC and CBI issue joint statement.
TUC and CBI issue joint statement saying UK 'facing national emergency' and that May must embrace plan B Frances O’Grady, the general secretary of the TUC, and Carolyn Fairbairn, the director general of the CBI, have written a joint open letter to Theresa May saying that the country is facing a “national emergency” over Brexit and that she should adopt a “plan B”.
It is very unusual for the countries main employers’ organisation and the body representing trade unions to unite in this way with such a strongly-worded message to government.
Here it is in full.
Together we represent millions of workers and tens of thousands of businesses. It is on their behalf that we are writing to you to ask you to change your Brexit approach.
Our country is facing a national emergency. Decisions of recent days have caused the risk of no deal to soar. Firms and communities across the UK are not ready for this outcome. The shock to our economy would be felt by generations to come.
We ask you to take three steps to protect the jobs, rights and livelihoods of ordinary working people.
First, avoiding no deal is paramount. Businesses and employees alike need to see their government clearly acknowledge the reckless damage no deal would cause and recommit itself to avoiding this outcome.
Second, securing an extension has become essential. 88% of CBI members and a majority in parliament agree this is better than no deal. But at the same time an extension must genuinely allow a way forwards, and be long enough for a deal to be agreed.
Third, ‘the current deal or no deal’ must not be the only choice. A Plan B must be found - one that protects workers, the economy and an open Irish border, commands a parliamentary majority, and is negotiable with the EU. A new approach is needed to secure this – whether through indicative votes or another mechanism for compromise.
We cannot overstate the gravity of this crisis for firms and working people. We request an urgent meeting with you to discuss our concerns and hear your response.
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Post by redstriper on Mar 21, 2019 15:49:40 GMT
May achieved something that many have never been able to do. Brought workers and bosses together in common agreement. TUC and CBI issue joint statement. TUC and CBI issue joint statement saying UK 'facing national emergency' and that May must embrace plan B Frances O’Grady, the general secretary of the TUC, and Carolyn Fairbairn, the director general of the CBI, have written a joint open letter to Theresa May saying that the country is facing a “national emergency” over Brexit and that she should adopt a “plan B”. It is very unusual for the countries main employers’ organisation and the body representing trade unions to unite in this way with such a strongly-worded message to government. Here it is in full. Together we represent millions of workers and tens of thousands of businesses. It is on their behalf that we are writing to you to ask you to change your Brexit approach. Our country is facing a national emergency. Decisions of recent days have caused the risk of no deal to soar. Firms and communities across the UK are not ready for this outcome. The shock to our economy would be felt by generations to come. We ask you to take three steps to protect the jobs, rights and livelihoods of ordinary working people. First, avoiding no deal is paramount. Businesses and employees alike need to see their government clearly acknowledge the reckless damage no deal would cause and recommit itself to avoiding this outcome. Second, securing an extension has become essential. 88% of CBI members and a majority in parliament agree this is better than no deal. But at the same time an extension must genuinely allow a way forwards, and be long enough for a deal to be agreed. Third, ‘the current deal or no deal’ must not be the only choice. A Plan B must be found - one that protects workers, the economy and an open Irish border, commands a parliamentary majority, and is negotiable with the EU. A new approach is needed to secure this – whether through indicative votes or another mechanism for compromise. We cannot overstate the gravity of this crisis for firms and working people. We request an urgent meeting with you to discuss our concerns and hear your response. Could they not have come up with that two years ago - when there was still time for a credible plan B to be pursued ?... I notice they aren't putting forward any potential answers either.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Mar 21, 2019 15:54:01 GMT
Maybe I'm putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 but I've just seen a clip of Amber Rudd being doorstepped this morning. Recently she's been pretty tight lipped when getting in to her car but when asked what did she think of "the prime minister pitching MP's against the public in her speach", she replied ... "I don't see it like that, I think all MP'S have a responsibility and a need to make sure that we avoid no deal and we all should be trying to do that." Hang on sec, isn't this the same Amber Rudd who a fortnight ago was threatening to resign, along with Clarke and Gauke if 'no deal' wasn't taken off the table and now she's trying to use it as a stick to get MP'S to vote for MV3? I can't believe for a minute she'd be doing this if she genuinely thought it was a possibility, indeed wouldn't she now be going batshit mental if actually there was a genuine likelihood that it was about to happen it 8 days time? Hence the 2+2 = 5, has she already been assured of some alternative plan that is going to take place if/when MV3 goes down? Strange you should say that Paul. I noticed Rudd yesterday sat there straight faced rather than nodding like a donkey. Made me wonder if she's been promised the captain's armband if May chucks it. Maybe I got 6 instead!
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 21, 2019 16:13:15 GMT
May achieved something that many have never been able to do. Brought workers and bosses together in common agreement. TUC and CBI issue joint statement. TUC and CBI issue joint statement saying UK 'facing national emergency' and that May must embrace plan B Frances O’Grady, the general secretary of the TUC, and Carolyn Fairbairn, the director general of the CBI, have written a joint open letter to Theresa May saying that the country is facing a “national emergency” over Brexit and that she should adopt a “plan B”. It is very unusual for the countries main employers’ organisation and the body representing trade unions to unite in this way with such a strongly-worded message to government. Here it is in full. Together we represent millions of workers and tens of thousands of businesses. It is on their behalf that we are writing to you to ask you to change your Brexit approach. Our country is facing a national emergency. Decisions of recent days have caused the risk of no deal to soar. Firms and communities across the UK are not ready for this outcome. The shock to our economy would be felt by generations to come. We ask you to take three steps to protect the jobs, rights and livelihoods of ordinary working people. First, avoiding no deal is paramount. Businesses and employees alike need to see their government clearly acknowledge the reckless damage no deal would cause and recommit itself to avoiding this outcome. Second, securing an extension has become essential. 88% of CBI members and a majority in parliament agree this is better than no deal. But at the same time an extension must genuinely allow a way forwards, and be long enough for a deal to be agreed. Third, ‘the current deal or no deal’ must not be the only choice. A Plan B must be found - one that protects workers, the economy and an open Irish border, commands a parliamentary majority, and is negotiable with the EU. A new approach is needed to secure this – whether through indicative votes or another mechanism for compromise. We cannot overstate the gravity of this crisis for firms and working people. We request an urgent meeting with you to discuss our concerns and hear your response. Could they not have come up with that two years ago - when there was still time for a credible plan B to be pursued ?... I notice they aren't putting forward any potential answers either. We have people who are employed and highly paid to do that, that is not their job, and why should it be? But it is their job to be aware of the consequences of bad government and to vocalise it when it is happening. They have said from the beginning (and repeatedly) that they would need notice of the nature of the agreement to leave to avoid a very damaging situation for everyone. The Government has failed to provide this and has not been listening. The referendum didn't give the option of a no deal. It was asking whether people believed we should leave, that is very different.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 21, 2019 16:23:03 GMT
Could they not have come up with that two years ago - when there was still time for a credible plan B to be pursued ?... I notice they aren't putting forward any potential answers either. We have people who are employed and highly paid to do that, that is not their job, and why should it be? But it is their job to be aware of the consequences of bad government and to vocalise it when it is happening. They have said from the beginning (and repeatedly) that they would need notice of the nature of the agreement to leave to avoid a very damaging situation for everyone. The Government has failed to provide this and has not been listening. The referendum didn't give the option of a no deal. It was asking whether people believed we should leave, that is very different. So ask them what kind of Leave they want, then.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 21, 2019 16:25:23 GMT
Well MV3 isn't going to go through, so unless Macron is bluffing, that's what's going to happen. Of course, unless parliament revokes article 50 at the 11th hour. You can forget revocation, no chance of that. Absolutely none. Corbyn isn't ruling it out, according to The Guardian.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Mar 21, 2019 16:40:58 GMT
You can forget revocation, no chance of that. Absolutely none. What makes you so sure? This loopy petition that Remoaners are spunking over at the moment could end up being debated in Parliament. MPs are so desperate not to leave the EU, they may push the red button and vote to revoke. And people tell me it's not a fit up. The fact that it's being talked about tells me it's being seriously considered.
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