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Post by shangamuzo on Dec 20, 2018 14:31:44 GMT
Today please.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 14:45:24 GMT
You either voted to: A) Remain - carry on business as usual B) Leave - and suffer the consequence of either hard Brexit or whatever cobbled together wishy washy agreement the PM could come up with. It's seems as though the majority of Leavers here are shirking responsibility for outcome B - but that IS what they voted for. Actually this has been covered several times on the thread A) Not status quo but Ever Closer Union towards a United States of Europe with a continuous loss of Sovereignty and democracy B) An exit door from the above the implications and consequences of which were made clear before the vote...by the Remainers particularly, no Single market, No Customs Union, no jurisdiction of the EU Court of Justice. B) was chosen but has not been achieved because those tasked with delivering it can't accept the result and therefore don't want to deliver it and have acted in collusion with other Remainers and the EU to undermine the result. ...and the current debate about deals/ options and referendum s, accompanied by increased fear is part of that process. In my opinion
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Post by Gods on Dec 20, 2018 14:47:15 GMT
If there were a 2nd referendum I wonder if the electorate would really be any better informed? They will know it is more complicated than they were told and there will be 2 million new young voters but will they really be more knowledgeable? I'd still hazard a guess 99% of voters have no clue what the Single Market or the Customs Union are and for sure could not clearly articulate the difference. If you think that shows a lack of faith on my part in the great British public then you're right! My faith was first shaken in 1971 when as a pre-teenager I was in love with George Best and Barry John convinced that one of them would win Sports Personality Of The Year. After the brilliance of the British Lions in New Zealand my money was on the Welsh Fly Half. Alas he finished third. Best was second. The winner was Princess Anne in equestrian sport and it wasn't even an Olympic year
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 14:53:03 GMT
You either voted to: A) Remain - carry on business as usual B) Leave - and suffer the consequence of either hard Brexit or whatever cobbled together wishy washy agreement the PM could come up with. It's seems as though the majority of Leavers here are shirking responsibility for outcome B - but that IS what they voted for. What are the consequences in your opinion of so called hard brexit ? Personally - loss of my EU passport and freedom to work and live where I choose with EU rights, which seems to be of little of no concern to Leavers. Economically - a total cluster the like of which most in the UK have never seen. Socially - I think the damage is already done, the whole thing is horribly divisive, same as Trump here. It is just my opinion so Leavers - no need to get your knickers in a twist..
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 14:56:53 GMT
If there were a 2nd referendum I wonder if the electorate would really be any better informed? They will know it is more complicated than they were told and there will be 2 million new young voters but will they really be more knowledgeable? I'd still hazard a guess 99% of voters have no clue what the Single Market or the Customs Union are and for sure could not clearly articulate the difference. If you think that shows a lack of faith on my part in the great British public then you're right! My faith was first shaken in 1971 when as a pre-teenager I was in love with George Best and Barry John convinced that one of them would win Sports Personality Of The Year. After the brilliance of the British Lions in New Zealand my money was on the Welsh Fly Half. Alas he finished third. Best was second. The winner was Princess Anne in equestrian sport and it wasn't even an Olympic year I don't think people's overall position has shifted that much as the vote imho was based on gut feeling not any rational evaluation of consequence. I would however contend that more young people may put down the X Box roll out of bed and vote if there was a do over. Oh and for those of us left out of the vote >15 expat's - we should have a say.
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 15:00:01 GMT
You either voted to: A) Remain - carry on business as usual B) Leave - and suffer the consequence of either hard Brexit or whatever cobbled together wishy washy agreement the PM could come up with. It's seems as though the majority of Leavers here are shirking responsibility for outcome B - but that IS what they voted for. Actually this has been covered several times on the thread A) Not status quo but Ever Closer Union towards a United States of Europe with a continuous loss of Sovereignty and democracy B) An exit door from the above the implications and consequences of which were made clear before the vote...by the Remainers particularly, no Single market, No Customs Union, no jurisdiction of the EU Court of Justice. B) was chosen but has not been achieved because those tasked with delivering it can't accept the result and therefore don't want to deliver it and have acted in collusion with other Remainers and the EU to undermine the result. ...and the current debate about deals/ options and referendum s, accompanied by increased fear is part of that process. In my opinion So you are saying by voting B) Leave - you weren't expecting the outcome you have as of today? That my friend is the crux of my argument - you brought this upon yourselves.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 15:02:25 GMT
If there were a 2nd referendum I wonder if the electorate would really be any better informed? They will know it is more complicated than they were told and there will be 2 million new young voters but will they really be more knowledgeable? I'd still hazard a guess 99% of voters have no clue what the Single Market or the Customs Union are and for sure could not clearly articulate the difference. If you think that shows a lack of faith on my part in the great British public then you're right! My faith was first shaken in 1971 when as a pre-teenager I was in love with George Best and Barry John convinced that one of them would win Sports Personality Of The Year. After the brilliance of the British Lions in New Zealand my money was on the Welsh Fly Half. Alas he finished third. Best was second. The winner was Princess Anne in equestrian sport and it wasn't even an Olympic year I think that you are correct Gods, I've said as much in am earlier thread. To start with May's deal is over 500 pages...and actually is not a deal but a temporary arrangement while we supposedly try to get a deal.... not worth the paper it is written on....are we supposed to understand all that before voting....the referendum like all votes is based on a combination of head and heart... there has never been an election in which the electorate knew everything, particularly as future events, by their very nature are unpredictable. ( We should not even contemplate another Referendum.... we've already had a People's referendum but if we did...) Remain should not be on the ballot ( is that Hard Remain ( no more closer union/ no army,/ back to a trading block? Or soft remain.... ever closer union/ Schengen/ Euro?....it is NOT STATIC/ Status quo). Also the result is likely to be close so with arguments about lies etc .....a second referendum would solve nothing......just a device to reverse BREXIT and if Remain won then they could try to claim an element of Democracy in the attempt to subvert Democracy!!! It would not solve matters but prolong them. If we actually left properly on March 29 then we could move forward....in the meantime if a free trade deal was arranged take it, if not work towards one after we have left..,as other independent sovereign countries do. Of course this would mean Remainers accepting the result
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 15:06:46 GMT
Actually this has been covered several times on the thread A) Not status quo but Ever Closer Union towards a United States of Europe with a continuous loss of Sovereignty and democracy B) An exit door from the above the implications and consequences of which were made clear before the vote...by the Remainers particularly, no Single market, No Customs Union, no jurisdiction of the EU Court of Justice. B) was chosen but has not been achieved because those tasked with delivering it can't accept the result and therefore don't want to deliver it and have acted in collusion with other Remainers and the EU to undermine the result. ...and the current debate about deals/ options and referendum s, accompanied by increased fear is part of that process. In my opinion So you are saying by voting B) Leave - you weren't expecting the outcome you have as of today? That my friend is the crux of my argument - you brought this upon yourselves. No I haven't... it is brought about by those not accepting the result and who are trying to subvert it. It's simple really.
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 20, 2018 15:08:08 GMT
What are the consequences in your opinion of so called hard brexit ? Personally - loss of my EU passport and freedom to work and live where I choose with EU rights, which seems to be of little of no concern to Leavers. Economically - a total cluster the like of which most in the UK have never seen. Socially - I think the damage is already done, the whole thing is horribly divisive, same as Trump here. It is just my opinion so Leavers - no need to get your knickers in a twist.. Mate you are just another middle class professional having a nice life and bemoaning your lack of future enrichment in Europe. With all due respect you are not representative of the vast majority of leave voters who just want change and the chance for a better existence. These people from mostly working class areas couldn't care less about air travel or a shortage of langoustine in Waitrose
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 15:12:18 GMT
So you are saying by voting B) Leave - you weren't expecting the outcome you have as of today? That my friend is the crux of my argument - you brought this upon yourselves. No I haven't.. Look it is brought about by those not accepting the result and trying to subvert it. Ok, well I appreciate you clarifying your position and I presume that sentiment is shared by many other Leavers. So you didn't think anyone would try to not accept the result or subvert it- especially given that "almost" half of those who voted didn't want to Leave? Sorry mate - that is a tad naive don't you think? I would contend was bloody obvious even before the vote.
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Post by starkiller on Dec 20, 2018 15:14:38 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 15:17:54 GMT
No I haven't.. Look it is brought about by those not accepting the result and trying to subvert it. Ok, well I appreciate you clarifying your position and I presume that sentiment is shared by many other Leavers. So you didn't think anyone would try to not accept the result or subvert it- especially given that "almost" half of those who voted didn't want to Leave? Sorry mate - that is a tad naive don't you think? I would contend was bloody obvious even before the vote. I don't think that it was obvious. On reflection , yes many of us were and have been naïve to believe the promises made by the government....you know " it's your decision. Not ours. Not politicians.".... although at the time I believe that most people from both sides did want to believe the government and did not doubt it. I'll tell you what is naïve many Remainers lack of understanding , scrutiny and denial of the true purpose of the EU as it ever continues to move towards an anti democratic , centralised dictatorial bureacracy. They seem to think, or naively want others to think, that the EU is Europe
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 20, 2018 15:18:06 GMT
Personally - loss of my EU passport and freedom to work and live where I choose with EU rights, which seems to be of little of no concern to Leavers. Economically - a total cluster the like of which most in the UK have never seen. Socially - I think the damage is already done, the whole thing is horribly divisive, same as Trump here. It is just my opinion so Leavers - no need to get your knickers in a twist.. Mate you are just another middle class professional having a nice life and bemoaning your lack of future enrichment in Europe. With all due respect you are not representative of the vast majority of leave voters who just want change and the chance for a better existence. These people from mostly working class areas couldn't care less about air travel or a shortage of langoustine in Waitrose A little harsh Harry these EU rights are obviously very important to him hence why he chooses to exercise them by living and or working in the USA.......
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Post by yeokel on Dec 20, 2018 15:18:08 GMT
If there were a 2nd referendum I wonder if the electorate would really be any better informed? They will know it is more complicated than they were told and there will be 2 million new young voters but will they really be more knowledgeable? I'd still hazard a guess 99% of voters have no clue what the Single Market or the Customs Union are and for sure could not clearly articulate the difference. If you think that shows a lack of faith on my part in the great British public then you're right! My faith was first shaken in 1971 when as a pre-teenager I was in love with George Best and Barry John convinced that one of them would win Sports Personality Of The Year. After the brilliance of the British Lions in New Zealand my money was on the Welsh Fly Half. Alas he finished third. Best was second. The winner was Princess Anne in equestrian sport and it wasn't even an Olympic year I don't think people's overall position has shifted that much ..... expat's - we should have a say. Come back and live here then and get yourselves on the electoral register. Simple.
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Post by Gods on Dec 20, 2018 15:19:08 GMT
If there were a 2nd referendum I wonder if the electorate would really be any better informed? They will know it is more complicated than they were told and there will be 2 million new young voters but will they really be more knowledgeable? I'd still hazard a guess 99% of voters have no clue what the Single Market or the Customs Union are and for sure could not clearly articulate the difference. If you think that shows a lack of faith on my part in the great British public then you're right! My faith was first shaken in 1971 when as a pre-teenager I was in love with George Best and Barry John convinced that one of them would win Sports Personality Of The Year. After the brilliance of the British Lions in New Zealand my money was on the Welsh Fly Half. Alas he finished third. Best was second. The winner was Princess Anne in equestrian sport and it wasn't even an Olympic year I don't think people's overall position has shifted that much as the vote imho was based on gut feeling not any rational evaluation of consequence. I would however contend that more young people may put down the X Box roll out of bed and vote if there was a do over. Oh and for those of us left out of the vote >15 expat's - we should have a say. I'll vote next time so that would be 1 more! I was stuck on a flight to Gatwick from Berlin which never took off in time owing to a French Air Traffic controllers strike! You're right the Remain campaign failed to tug at the heart strings. On reflection defending a known status quo was always going to be a tough task when your opponents can sell a vision of sunlit uplands.
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 15:35:51 GMT
Ok, well I appreciate you clarifying your position and I presume that sentiment is shared by many other Leavers. So you didn't think anyone would try to not accept the result or subvert it- especially given that "almost" half of those who voted didn't want to Leave? Sorry mate - that is a tad naive don't you think? I would contend was bloody obvious even before the vote. I don't think that it was obvious. On reflection , yes many of us were and have been naïve to believe the promises made by the government....you know " it's your decision. Not ours. Not politicians.".... although at the time I believe that most people from both sides did want to believe the government and did not doubt it. I'll tell you what is naïve many Remainers lack of understanding , scrutiny and denial of the true purpose of the EU as it ever continues to move towards an anti democratic , centralised dictatorial bureacracy. They seem to think, or naively want others to think, that the EU is Europe Fair enough mate - I appreciate your honesty and respect your position whilst I would of course hold a somewhat different belief myself.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 15:38:05 GMT
I don't think people's overall position has shifted that much as the vote imho was based on gut feeling not any rational evaluation of consequence. I would however contend that more young people may put down the X Box roll out of bed and vote if there was a do over. Oh and for those of us left out of the vote >15 expat's - we should have a say. I'll vote next time so that would be 1 more! I was stuck on a flight to Gatwick from Berlin which never took off in time owing to a French Air Traffic controllers strike! You're right the Remain campaign failed to tug at the heart strings. On reflection defending a known status quo was always going to be a tough task when your opponents can sell a vision of sunlit uplands. You could equally argue the reverse of that God's. People generally don't like change, particularly when it is moving away from 27 others and takes an element of courage and uncertainty and when accompanied by threats/ certainties of Armageddon and when the entire establishment is against you...and yet people still voted leave. Also I don't think that Leaving was ever promoted as the land of milk and honey...this country and the EU have many problems, in or out.....at least I'd like to try to put someone in power whose primary concern and purpose (and ability to influence ) is that if this country
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 15:42:35 GMT
Tusk has always seemed a genuine man to me.
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 20, 2018 15:46:31 GMT
A democratic vote based on untruths then,which ever way you cut it what the leave camp promised is not what is available in reality and as such in my opinion should go back to the people. Untruths on both sides. I agree untruths on both sides which are both now known to all sides .
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 16:01:19 GMT
I don't think people's overall position has shifted that much ..... expat's - we should have a say. Come back and live here then and get yourselves on the electoral register. Simple. Oh dear I see my old friend yeokel is at it again. A bit rich coming from someone posting on a SCFC board who left Stoke 30 years ago and who now lives in Somerset don't you think?
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 16:03:41 GMT
Mate you are just another middle class professional having a nice life and bemoaning your lack of future enrichment in Europe. With all due respect you are not representative of the vast majority of leave voters who just want change and the chance for a better existence. These people from mostly working class areas couldn't care less about air travel or a shortage of langoustine in Waitrose A little harsh Harry these EU rights are obviously very important to him hence why he chooses to exercise them by living and or working in the USA....... oh dear - you just can not get your head around the concept of dual nationality can you, it's a thing, look it up.
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 16:12:31 GMT
Personally - loss of my EU passport and freedom to work and live where I choose with EU rights, which seems to be of little of no concern to Leavers. Economically - a total cluster the like of which most in the UK have never seen. Socially - I think the damage is already done, the whole thing is horribly divisive, same as Trump here. It is just my opinion so Leavers - no need to get your knickers in a twist.. Mate you are just another middle class professional having a nice life and bemoaning your lack of future enrichment in Europe. With all due respect you are not representative of the vast majority of leave voters who just want change and the chance for a better existence. These people from mostly working class areas couldn't care less about air travel or a shortage of langoustine in Waitrose Sorry mate are you referring to me Mr middle class having a nice life?? Just because I left Thatcher's Britain in the 80's and made something of myself doesn't mean i don't understand what's important to the "working class" whatever tf that is. My family are from Chesterton - my Grandad worked for the Co-Op and was a ardent socialist and labor mayor or N-U-L, 3 times. Perhaps his only short coming was he was a Vale fan. Whilst I may hold somewhat different political views from him later in life I can still relate and understand what's it like to not be born in a silver spoon family and have to deal with the ingrained snobbery of English society.
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Post by Gods on Dec 20, 2018 16:28:45 GMT
I'll vote next time so that would be 1 more! I was stuck on a flight to Gatwick from Berlin which never took off in time owing to a French Air Traffic controllers strike! You're right the Remain campaign failed to tug at the heart strings. On reflection defending a known status quo was always going to be a tough task when your opponents can sell a vision of sunlit uplands. You could equally argue the reverse of that God's. People generally don't like change, particularly when it is moving away from 27 others and takes an element of courage and uncertainty and when accompanied by threats/ certainties of Armageddon and when the entire establishment is against you...and yet people still voted leave.Also I don't think that Leaving was ever promoted as the land of milk and honey...this country and the EU have many problems, in or out.....at least I'd like to try to put someone in power whose primary concern and purpose (and ability to influence ) is that if this country Yes I did find that absolutely extraordinary. That people still voted leave despite the CBI, the TUC, the Treasury, the NFU, Academia, Economists, MP's, 'clebs', really anyone you could name all for the most part being pro-remain. It's a huge part of the conundrum we now find ourselves in. There is almost no one in a position of influence who actually thinks it's a good idea to leave. My personal view is that those in the brexit heartlands will regret it. The EU is undeniably a social democratic construct. If you want to slash taxes; cut welfare further; open more areas of public life to privatisation; and radically reduce regulation, from employment law to food and the environment it has long been an infuriating barrier. And that is where Rees-Mogg and the ERG group are coming from but it doesn't line up with the aims of the great dispossessed who turned out in number to vote brexit. There is no unity of purpose behind the brexit vote which is why there is no clear leadership and way forward. But, repeat to fade, that is why you shouldn't mix referendums with our system of government which is elective representation, not unless you want to get in a huge mess anyway!
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Post by yeokel on Dec 20, 2018 16:35:12 GMT
Come back and live here then and get yourselves on the electoral register. Simple. Oh dear I see my old friend yeokel is at it again. A bit rich coming from someone posting on a SCFC board who left Stoke 30 years ago and who now lives in Somerset don't you think? Well, no I don’t. Just in case you are confused, I live in Somerset, England not Somerset New Jersey, Somerset Pennsylvania or Somerset Massachusetts. And, I wouldn’t mind betting that I’ve spent more time in N.Staffs in the last 30 years than you have in the whole of the UK in that time. In fact, I’ve probably spent more time in the Brit/Bet 365 than you have in the UK in the last 30 years. And, I’ve probably paid a hell of a lot more tax and done a hell of a lot more to support this country than you have in the last 30 years so excuse me while I point out the hypocrisy of someone who is complaining about being excluded from a UK referendum having lived in the USA since the 1980s. As I said before, if you want to be more involved with decisions pertaining to the UK, come and live here and get yourself on the electoral register.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 16:49:27 GMT
You could equally argue the reverse of that God's. People generally don't like change, particularly when it is moving away from 27 others and takes an element of courage and uncertainty and when accompanied by threats/ certainties of Armageddon and when the entire establishment is against you...and yet people still voted leave.Also I don't think that Leaving was ever promoted as the land of milk and honey...this country and the EU have many problems, in or out.....at least I'd like to try to put someone in power whose primary concern and purpose (and ability to influence ) is that if this country Yes I did find that absolutely extraordinary. That people still voted leave despite the CBI, the TUC, the Treasury, the NFU, Academia, Economists, MP's, 'clebs', really anyone you could name all for the most part being pro-remain. It's a huge part of the conundrum we now find ourselves in. There is almost no one in a position of influence who actually thinks it's a good idea to leave. My personal view is that those in the brexit heartlands will regret it. The EU is undeniably a social democratic construct. If you want to slash taxes; cut welfare further; open more areas of public life to privatisation; and radically reduce regulation, from employment law to food and the environment it has long been an infuriating barrier. And that is where Rees-Mogg and the ERG group are coming from but it doesn't line up with the aims of the great dispossessed who turned out in number to vote brexit. There is no unity of purpose behind the brexit vote which is why there is no clear leadership and way forward. But, repeat to fade, that is why you shouldn't mix referendums with our system of government which is elective representation, not unless you want to get in a huge mess anyway! I think that there is no clear leadership because those who have the power to deliver it don't believe in it. I do believe in Referendra s on big important issues , obviously not for every single issue. It is not as though we have had many in the last 50!years...I would have a few more So I do believe that we should have had one in respect of the EU....it is so important and the electorate have never really had a say. Unfortunately the politicians/ government have gone back on their word and not honoured the result....that does make referendra pretty pointless and possibly even exposes our Democracy
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 16:49:48 GMT
Oh dear I see my old friend yeokel is at it again. A bit rich coming from someone posting on a SCFC board who left Stoke 30 years ago and who now lives in Somerset don't you think? Well, no I don’t. Just in case you are confused, I live in Somerset, England not Somerset New Jersey, Somerset Pennsylvania or Somerset Massachusetts. And, I wouldn’t mind betting that I’ve spent more time in N.Staffs in the last 30 years than you have in the whole of the UK in that time. In fact, I’ve probably spent more time in the Brit/Bet 365 than you have in the UK in the last 30 years. And, I’ve probably paid a hell of a lot more tax and done a hell of a lot more to support this country than you have in the last 30 years so excuse me while I point out the hypocrisy of someone who is complaining about being excluded from a UK referendum having lived in the USA since the 1980s. As I said before, if you want to be more involved with decisions pertaining to the UK, come and live here and get yourself on the electoral register. oh dear - I seem to have touched a nerve there. Maybe you should move back to S-o-T and get yourself on the electoral register if you care so much about the decline of the Potteries. Enjoy your cider mate.
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Post by yeokel on Dec 20, 2018 17:11:22 GMT
Well, no I don’t. Just in case you are confused, I live in Somerset, England not Somerset New Jersey, Somerset Pennsylvania or Somerset Massachusetts. And, I wouldn’t mind betting that I’ve spent more time in N.Staffs in the last 30 years than you have in the whole of the UK in that time. In fact, I’ve probably spent more time in the Brit/Bet 365 than you have in the UK in the last 30 years. And, I’ve probably paid a hell of a lot more tax and done a hell of a lot more to support this country than you have in the last 30 years so excuse me while I point out the hypocrisy of someone who is complaining about being excluded from a UK referendum having lived in the USA since the 1980s. As I said before, if you want to be more involved with decisions pertaining to the UK, come and live here and get yourself on the electoral register. oh dear - I seem to have touched a nerve there. Maybe you should move back to S-o-T and get yourself on the electoral register if you care so much about the decline of the Potteries. Enjoy your cider mate. No nerve touched here. I love living in Somerset having chosen to leave Stoke for better work and family prospects down here all those years ago. I can accept that when I made that decision and bought a house and became a ratepayer here I earned the right to have my say about how affairs are managed here in Somerset, and in moving away I relinquished the right to have a say in how affairs are managed in Stoke on Trent despite having been born there and having lived the first thirty years of my life there. I have a right to an opinion, but that is it. Just like you & the UK. I’ll be playing skittles in one of the local skittles pub leagues tonight and will raise a glass of scrumpy to you and the better life you’ve made for yourself in the USA.
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Post by xchpotter on Dec 20, 2018 17:17:46 GMT
Why are Remainers so intent on wanting things to be as bad as possible? I just don’t get it. Why not try being positive about Europe rather than negative about the UK if that’s your thing. It reminds of those who wanted Stoke to lose when Pulis and Hughes were in charge to try and prove a point,or in the hope it truly would lead to Armageddon. Don’t think I’ll be inviting any to my Christmas party...it would be well depressing with them turning up.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 20, 2018 17:36:10 GMT
You could equally argue the reverse of that God's. People generally don't like change, particularly when it is moving away from 27 others and takes an element of courage and uncertainty and when accompanied by threats/ certainties of Armageddon and when the entire establishment is against you...and yet people still voted leave.Also I don't think that Leaving was ever promoted as the land of milk and honey...this country and the EU have many problems, in or out.....at least I'd like to try to put someone in power whose primary concern and purpose (and ability to influence ) is that if this country Yes I did find that absolutely extraordinary. That people still voted leave despite the CBI, the TUC, the Treasury, the NFU, Academia, Economists, MP's, 'clebs', really anyone you could name all for the most part being pro-remain. It's a huge part of the conundrum we now find ourselves in. There is almost no one in a position of influence who actually thinks it's a good idea to leave. My personal view is that those in the brexit heartlands will regret it. The EU is undeniably a social democratic construct. If you want to slash taxes; cut welfare further; open more areas of public life to privatisation; and radically reduce regulation, from employment law to food and the environment it has long been an infuriating barrier. And that is where Rees-Mogg and the ERG group are coming from but it doesn't line up with the aims of the great dispossessed who turned out in number to vote brexit. There is no unity of purpose behind the brexit vote which is why there is no clear leadership and way forward. But, repeat to fade, that is why you shouldn't mix referendums with our system of government which is elective representation, not unless you want to get in a huge mess anyway! The only counter to that, Gods, is staunch socialists like Benn and Galloway opposed the EU, and Benn is on record as saying it is an anti socialist construct. Maybe Socialism has lost it's way if Labour are now in favour of the EU? I understand your reservations regarding the Tory right. Perhaps the left need to step up to prevent the cuts etc, that you talk about? I think people are crying out for clarity on Brexit, and Labour are missing a trick, so far.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 17:41:53 GMT
As far as character is concerned , just like Patrick O'Flynn, I've always found Steve Woolfe to be a good genuine person. In my opinion. More trustworthy as a MEP than most of our lot in parliament. Ditto Suzanne Evans.
And more positive moves
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