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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 18:10:41 GMT
There will be 73 days from the " meaningful vote" and March 29th th
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 18:12:10 GMT
There will be 73 days from the " meaningful vote" and March 29th th Clearly the " cross party" group to thwart Brexit will be acting fast to prevent it.
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 20, 2018 18:22:40 GMT
If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I would say that is probably the fairest outcome. So hypothetically if remain got 45%, May's deal 30% and no deal 25% that would result in May's deal being the decision of the people. But... Original spin. IF the option was only May's deal or stay, as a brexiteers what would you choose? I'm labouring that point I suppose because I'm trying to get an idea of just how poorly viewed May's deal is compared to staying... Among the general populous, May's deal polls more or less 50/50 when put head-to-head against Remain. No deal slightly less. Which would suggest the vast majority of Leavers prefer any version of Leave over Remain. May's deal pisses all over no deal, mainly because Remainers would vote for May's deal in that scenario, but a significant number of Leavers (about a third) prefer it too - which, to make the point again, makes a mockery of the line that all Leave voters knew *exactly* what they were voting for. Actually those figures seem to have changed a lot just in the last week or so... Remain getting a lot stronger as an option.. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/20/polls-stay-eu-yougov-brexit-peoples-vote
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 18:23:11 GMT
It seems to me that Adonis is a bit of an extremist.
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 20, 2018 18:48:03 GMT
As far as character is concerned , just like Patrick O'Flynn, I've always found Steve Woolfe to be a good genuine person. In my opinion. More trustworthy as a MEP than most of our lot in parliament. Ditto Suzanne Evans. And more positive moves Macron is looking for some new friends
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 20, 2018 18:54:26 GMT
You could equally argue the reverse of that God's. People generally don't like change, particularly when it is moving away from 27 others and takes an element of courage and uncertainty and when accompanied by threats/ certainties of Armageddon and when the entire establishment is against you...and yet people still voted leave.Also I don't think that Leaving was ever promoted as the land of milk and honey...this country and the EU have many problems, in or out.....at least I'd like to try to put someone in power whose primary concern and purpose (and ability to influence ) is that if this country Yes I did find that absolutely extraordinary. That people still voted leave despite the CBI, the TUC, the Treasury, the NFU, Academia, Economists, MP's, 'clebs', really anyone you could name all for the most part being pro-remain. It's a huge part of the conundrum we now find ourselves in. There is almost no one in a position of influence who actually thinks it's a good idea to leave. My personal view is that those in the brexit heartlands will regret it. The EU is undeniably a social democratic construct. If you want to slash taxes; cut welfare further; open more areas of public life to privatisation; and radically reduce regulation, from employment law to food and the environment it has long been an infuriating barrier. And that is where Rees-Mogg and the ERG group are coming from but it doesn't line up with the aims of the great dispossessed who turned out in number to vote brexit. There is no unity of purpose behind the brexit vote which is why there is no clear leadership and way forward. But, repeat to fade, that is why you shouldn't mix referendums with our system of government which is elective representation, not unless you want to get in a huge mess anyway! The core Brexit voters don't give a monkeys about the CBI TUC , etc in fact it was more than likely these organisations put a lot of people's backs up . There is a lot of disenfranchised people out there that just want things to change and chose this negative vote to give the establishment a good kicking .
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 20, 2018 19:22:34 GMT
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 20, 2018 19:25:03 GMT
Yes I did find that absolutely extraordinary. That people still voted leave despite the CBI, the TUC, the Treasury, the NFU, Academia, Economists, MP's, 'clebs', really anyone you could name all for the most part being pro-remain. It's a huge part of the conundrum we now find ourselves in. There is almost no one in a position of influence who actually thinks it's a good idea to leave. My personal view is that those in the brexit heartlands will regret it. The EU is undeniably a social democratic construct. If you want to slash taxes; cut welfare further; open more areas of public life to privatisation; and radically reduce regulation, from employment law to food and the environment it has long been an infuriating barrier. And that is where Rees-Mogg and the ERG group are coming from but it doesn't line up with the aims of the great dispossessed who turned out in number to vote brexit. There is no unity of purpose behind the brexit vote which is why there is no clear leadership and way forward. But, repeat to fade, that is why you shouldn't mix referendums with our system of government which is elective representation, not unless you want to get in a huge mess anyway! The core Brexit voters don't give a monkeys about the CBI TUC , etc in fact it was more than likely these organisations put a lot of people's backs up . There is a lot of disenfranchised people out there that just want things to change and chose this negative vote to give the establishment a good kicking . Totally agree. Years of British politicians ignoring the voters not sure how it's the fault of the EU.
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 20, 2018 19:27:50 GMT
The core Brexit voters don't give a monkeys about the CBI TUC , etc in fact it was more than likely these organisations put a lot of people's backs up . There is a lot of disenfranchised people out there that just want things to change and chose this negative vote to give the establishment a good kicking . Totally agree. Years of British politicians ignoring the voters not sure how it's the fault of the EU. It probably isn't although the folks in Spain , Italy , France , Greece and Portugal might disagree
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Post by 4372 on Dec 20, 2018 19:29:22 GMT
Why are Remainers so intent on wanting things to be as bad as possible? I just don’t get it. Why not try being positive about Europe rather than negative about the UK if that’s your thing. It reminds of those who wanted Stoke to lose when Pulis and Hughes were in charge to try and prove a point,or in the hope it truly would lead to Armageddon. Don’t think I’ll be inviting any to my Christmas party...it would be well depressing with them turning up. You are clearly a long term poster. Several posters on here have extolled the virtues of the EU and the contribution it has made to peace, prosperity and progress since it's inception.
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 20, 2018 19:29:47 GMT
Ha ha ha considering how much of Putin fanboys Milne and Corbyn that is just too funny.
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 20, 2018 19:32:34 GMT
A little harsh Harry these EU rights are obviously very important to him hence why he chooses to exercise them by living and or working in the USA....... oh dear - you just can not get your head around the concept of dual nationality can you, it's a thing, look it up. Mate I've lived in London for 20+ years I meet plenty of dual nationals, my point is your right to work in the EU is so important to you that you currently live an work in the USA, do get your head around the concept of irony can you, its a thing look it up
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 20, 2018 19:33:47 GMT
Ha ha ha considering how much of Putin fanboys Milne and Corbyn that is just too funny. Hello troll.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 20, 2018 19:54:30 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 20:37:22 GMT
A viewpoint from Arthur Scargill:
The statement by the Labour Party Leadership that they would support a second referendum is an act of treachery for which they will never be forgiven.The ruling class have used and will continue to use every means including a media which has sought to overturn the decision of the British people in the 2016 Referendum. The ruling class and the EU will demand another referendum and another until they get the result they want. As a socialist I call for all those who call themselves socialists to condemn this act of treachery by the Labour Party Leaders and campaign for withdrawal from this bastion of Capitalism. Jeremy Corbyn's embrace of a Customs Union is a sell out to Labour right wingers Keir Starmer and Chuka Umunna. It means that Labour is now committed to free movement of workers from 27 EU countries to the UK and a single market which allows companies to move out of the UK to other EU states where workers are paid lower wages. Membership of or collaboration with the EU means Britain has to accept the tariffs (import controls) stipulated by an unelected body in Brussels.Labour’s leadership is ignoring the 60 per cent of Labour Constituencies that voted to leave the EU,something Britain could have done the day after the referendum. I call on all who want an independent Britain to make clear in any future vote their support for ‘No Deal’.
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Post by M on Dec 20, 2018 20:56:22 GMT
A viewpoint from Arthur Scargill: The statement by the Labour Party Leadership that they would support a second referendum is an act of treachery for which they will never be forgiven.The ruling class have used and will continue to use every means including a media which has sought to overturn the decision of the British people in the 2016 Referendum. The ruling class and the EU will demand another referendum and another until they get the result they want. As a socialist I call for all those who call themselves socialists to condemn this act of treachery by the Labour Party Leaders and campaign for withdrawal from this bastion of Capitalism. Jeremy Corbyn's embrace of a Customs Union is a sell out to Labour right wingers Keir Starmer and Chuka Umunna. It means that Labour is now committed to free movement of workers from 27 EU countries to the UK and a single market which allows companies to move out of the UK to other EU states where workers are paid lower wages. Membership of or collaboration with the EU means Britain has to accept the tariffs (import controls) stipulated by an unelected body in Brussels.Labour’s leadership is ignoring the 60 per cent of Labour Constituencies that voted to leave the EU,something Britain could have done the day after the referendum. I call on all who want an independent Britain to make clear in any future vote their support for ‘No Deal’. Hypothetical question. If the vast majority of the Labour membership want a second referendum when you consider he's only been elected by them as leader and not the public. Should he or shouldn't he listen to them? The membership of the party he has been elected by the two largest mandates of any Labour leader ever wants something which disagrees with that statement. I'm taking my personal opinion out of it but if that's the route Labour choose to they are only doing what their members ask. So why should he ignore them if that's the route he goes?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 21:10:54 GMT
A viewpoint from Arthur Scargill: The statement by the Labour Party Leadership that they would support a second referendum is an act of treachery for which they will never be forgiven.The ruling class have used and will continue to use every means including a media which has sought to overturn the decision of the British people in the 2016 Referendum. The ruling class and the EU will demand another referendum and another until they get the result they want. As a socialist I call for all those who call themselves socialists to condemn this act of treachery by the Labour Party Leaders and campaign for withdrawal from this bastion of Capitalism. Jeremy Corbyn's embrace of a Customs Union is a sell out to Labour right wingers Keir Starmer and Chuka Umunna. It means that Labour is now committed to free movement of workers from 27 EU countries to the UK and a single market which allows companies to move out of the UK to other EU states where workers are paid lower wages. Membership of or collaboration with the EU means Britain has to accept the tariffs (import controls) stipulated by an unelected body in Brussels.Labour’s leadership is ignoring the 60 per cent of Labour Constituencies that voted to leave the EU,something Britain could have done the day after the referendum. I call on all who want an independent Britain to make clear in any future vote their support for ‘No Deal’. Hypothetical question. If the vast majority of the Labour membership want a second referendum when you consider he's only been elected by them as leader and not the public. Should he or shouldn't he listen to them? The membership of the party he has been elected by the two largest mandates of any Labour leader ever wants something which disagrees with that statement. I'm taking my personal opinion out of it but if that's the route Labour choose to they are only doing what their members ask. So why should he ignore them if that's the route he goes? My personal view...I think that the Labour party members would have gone the way of the Leadership, if the Leadership had explained and got behind Brexit. I think that the young following would have backed Corbyn and Brexit , if they had embraced Brexit and presented a vision. I think it is pretty much accepted that Corbyn was more convincing as a Leaver.Unfortunately for a couple of reasons, but particularly what Arthur said Corbyn " had " to follow others in the party on this major issue, and those others are not just the nice right of the party such as Chukka, but others who in my opinion just lacked courage. Labour are also divided on Brexit, not just the Tories I used to say that Corbyn was unnelectable but I did not factor in the abysmal May.Given May's performance I believe that if Corbyn had backed Leave, proper Brexit, they would be way ahead in the polls and would win the next election( eh his vision could have included better rights for workers, pensioners, the unemployed, the homeless, the disabled than those offered by the EU....a 2016 equivalent of the Atlee/ Beveridge 1942-6 vision) No major party is truly representing us thickos who mistakenly voted Out. Just my opinion, other explanations are possible.
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 21:11:06 GMT
oh dear - you just can not get your head around the concept of dual nationality can you, it's a thing, look it up. Mate I've lived in London for 20+ years I meet plenty of dual nationals, my point is your right to work in the EU is so important to you that you currently live an work in the USA, do get your head around the concept of irony can you, its a thing look it up if that is the case why did expats with <15 years get a vote and those of us with >15 years not? Clearly somebody did not agree with your position pre-vote otherwise NO expats would have got a vote. I certainly don't recall feeling any different on day 15 years +1 - certainly no less British. Any yes I know what irony is - it's like goldy and silvery..
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 21:13:28 GMT
oh dear - I seem to have touched a nerve there. Maybe you should move back to S-o-T and get yourself on the electoral register if you care so much about the decline of the Potteries. Enjoy your cider mate. No nerve touched here. I love living in Somerset having chosen to leave Stoke for better work and family prospects down here all those years ago. I can accept that when I made that decision and bought a house and became a ratepayer here I earned the right to have my say about how affairs are managed here in Somerset, and in moving away I relinquished the right to have a say in how affairs are managed in Stoke on Trent despite having been born there and having lived the first thirty years of my life there. I have a right to an opinion, but that is it. Just like you & the UK. I’ll be playing skittles in one of the local skittles pub leagues tonight and will raise a glass of scrumpy to you and the better life you’ve made for yourself in the USA. Fair enough my scrumpy loving pal - we shall agree to disagree and both retire to enjoy our favorite Yuletide beverage of choice for now.
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Post by M on Dec 20, 2018 21:22:44 GMT
Hypothetical question. If the vast majority of the Labour membership want a second referendum when you consider he's only been elected by them as leader and not the public. Should he or shouldn't he listen to them? The membership of the party he has been elected by the two largest mandates of any Labour leader ever wants something which disagrees with that statement. I'm taking my personal opinion out of it but if that's the route Labour choose to they are only doing what their members ask. So why should he ignore them if that's the route he goes? My personal view...I think that the Labour party members would have gone the way of the Leadership, if the Leadership had explained and got behind Brexit. I think that the young following would have backed Corbyn and Brexit , if they had embraced Brexit and presented a vision. I think it is pretty much accepted that Corbyn was more convincing as a Leaver.Unfortunately for a couple of reasons, but particularly what Arthur said Corbyn " had " to follow others in the party on this major issue, and those others are not just the nice right of the party such as Chukka, but others who in my opinion just lacked courage. Labour are also divided on Brexit, not just the Tories I used to say that Corbyn was unnelectable but I did not factor in the abysmal May.Given May's performance I believe that if Corbyn had backed Leave, proper Brexit, they would be way ahead in the polls and would win the next election. No major party is truly representing us thickos who mistakenly voted Out. Just my opinion, other explanations are possible. He doesn't have to follow anybody. Yes there's been a battle in Labour between 'New Labour' and Corbyn who wants to return Labour to what it was. But he's got nothing to fear. Nothing. Two largest mandates anyone could get. The NEC has virtually been overrun by Corbyn supporters and the remnants of 'New Labour' MPs full well know that if they don't follow the new party lines they will lose their jobs for life... He's virtually untouchable bar the fact that age isn't on his side. Literally the only people he needs to listen to are the membership. He's also the biggest advocate of democracy I've seen in any of those in the house. This is someone who can't stand the thought of Trident but understood it was devisive so instructed the whips to stand down and gave a free vote because he's not a dictator. I don't doubt he wouldn't be sad to see us leave the EU but I have less doubt that he would push for it for precisely the reason that the majority of his membership don't want it. Some would call that not being a leader. Some would say it defines a leader. He says he's a democratic leader.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 20, 2018 21:23:22 GMT
A viewpoint from Arthur Scargill: The statement by the Labour Party Leadership that they would support a second referendum is an act of treachery for which they will never be forgiven.The ruling class have used and will continue to use every means including a media which has sought to overturn the decision of the British people in the 2016 Referendum. The ruling class and the EU will demand another referendum and another until they get the result they want. As a socialist I call for all those who call themselves socialists to condemn this act of treachery by the Labour Party Leaders and campaign for withdrawal from this bastion of Capitalism. Jeremy Corbyn's embrace of a Customs Union is a sell out to Labour right wingers Keir Starmer and Chuka Umunna. It means that Labour is now committed to free movement of workers from 27 EU countries to the UK and a single market which allows companies to move out of the UK to other EU states where workers are paid lower wages. Membership of or collaboration with the EU means Britain has to accept the tariffs (import controls) stipulated by an unelected body in Brussels.Labour’s leadership is ignoring the 60 per cent of Labour Constituencies that voted to leave the EU,something Britain could have done the day after the referendum. I call on all who want an independent Britain to make clear in any future vote their support for ‘No Deal’. Hypothetical question. If the vast majority of the Labour membership want a second referendum when you consider he's only been elected by them as leader and not the public. Should he or shouldn't he listen to them? The membership of the party he has been elected by the two largest mandates of any Labour leader ever wants something which disagrees with that statement. I'm taking my personal opinion out of it but if that's the route Labour choose to they are only doing what their members ask. So why should he ignore them if that's the route he goes? He was elected on his views and principles. If they don’t like the fact he was anti-EU from the start they shouldn’t have elected them. You don’t elect someone for their views then expect them to change to conform to the party membership. It’s a bit hypocritical
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Post by M on Dec 20, 2018 21:29:14 GMT
Hypothetical question. If the vast majority of the Labour membership want a second referendum when you consider he's only been elected by them as leader and not the public. Should he or shouldn't he listen to them? The membership of the party he has been elected by the two largest mandates of any Labour leader ever wants something which disagrees with that statement. I'm taking my personal opinion out of it but if that's the route Labour choose to they are only doing what their members ask. So why should he ignore them if that's the route he goes? He was elected on his views and principles. If they don’t like the fact he was anti-EU from the start they shouldn’t have elected them. You don’t elect someone for their views then expect them to change to conform to the party membership. It’s a bit hypocritical He was elected because he was a socialist and the voices of the left had been ignored for too long by the moderates who had taken over a left wing party. Any true socialist who would have stood would have got selected in truth. He was only nominated to shut up the left in the party and they never had any doubt he'd be taken seriously until 59% voted for him...
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 20, 2018 21:30:07 GMT
A viewpoint from Arthur Scargill: The statement by the Labour Party Leadership that they would support a second referendum is an act of treachery for which they will never be forgiven.The ruling class have used and will continue to use every means including a media which has sought to overturn the decision of the British people in the 2016 Referendum. The ruling class and the EU will demand another referendum and another until they get the result they want. As a socialist I call for all those who call themselves socialists to condemn this act of treachery by the Labour Party Leaders and campaign for withdrawal from this bastion of Capitalism. Jeremy Corbyn's embrace of a Customs Union is a sell out to Labour right wingers Keir Starmer and Chuka Umunna. It means that Labour is now committed to free movement of workers from 27 EU countries to the UK and a single market which allows companies to move out of the UK to other EU states where workers are paid lower wages. Membership of or collaboration with the EU means Britain has to accept the tariffs (import controls) stipulated by an unelected body in Brussels.Labour’s leadership is ignoring the 60 per cent of Labour Constituencies that voted to leave the EU,something Britain could have done the day after the referendum. I call on all who want an independent Britain to make clear in any future vote their support for ‘No Deal’. Sheiky wipes away a tear.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 21:31:26 GMT
My personal view...I think that the Labour party members would have gone the way of the Leadership, if the Leadership had explained and got behind Brexit. I think that the young following would have backed Corbyn and Brexit , if they had embraced Brexit and presented a vision. I think it is pretty much accepted that Corbyn was more convincing as a Leaver.Unfortunately for a couple of reasons, but particularly what Arthur said Corbyn " had " to follow others in the party on this major issue, and those others are not just the nice right of the party such as Chukka, but others who in my opinion just lacked courage. Labour are also divided on Brexit, not just the Tories I used to say that Corbyn was unnelectable but I did not factor in the abysmal May.Given May's performance I believe that if Corbyn had backed Leave, proper Brexit, they would be way ahead in the polls and would win the next election. No major party is truly representing us thickos who mistakenly voted Out. Just my opinion, other explanations are possible. He doesn't have to follow anybody. Yes there's been a battle in Labour between 'New Labour' and Corbyn who wants to return Labour to what it was. But he's got nothing to fear. Nothing. Two largest mandates anyone could get. The NEC has virtually been overrun by Corbyn supporters and the remnants of 'New Labour' MPs full well know that if they don't follow the new party lines they will lose their jobs for life... He's virtually untouchable bar the fact that age isn't on his side. Literally the only people he needs to listen to are the membership. He's also the biggest advocate of democracy I've seen in any of those in the house. This is someone who can't stand the thought of Trident but understood it was devisive so instructed the whips to stand down and gave a free vote because he's not a dictator. I don't doubt he wouldn't be sad to see us leave the EU but I have less doubt that he would push for it for precisely the reason that the majority of his membership don't want it. Some would call that not being a leader. Some would say it defines a leader. He says he's a democratic leader. Not my view, but as I say other views are possible. In a way I think the groundswell in Labour support at membership level is a type of protest vote( just as the Brexit vote has been labelled)...a home for those who want to protest against austerity and years of Tory government.. there's not really anywhere else to go.... I think that they would have still have found their home in the Labour party if it had gone full Brexit.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 20, 2018 21:35:27 GMT
He was elected on his views and principles. If they don’t like the fact he was anti-EU from the start they shouldn’t have elected them. You don’t elect someone for their views then expect them to change to conform to the party membership. It’s a bit hypocritical He was elected because he was a socialist and the voices of the left had been ignored for too long by the moderates who had taken over a left wing party. Any true socialist who would have stood would have got selected in truth. He was only nominated to shut up the left in the party and they never had any doubt he'd be taken seriously until 59% voted for him... I get that but it would have been better for him and the party if he had stood also in his leave beliefs at least then the whole Labour Party would be going in the same direction now. At the moment the mp remainers in blue and red may end up feeling the brunt of leavers wrath at the next election.
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Post by M on Dec 20, 2018 21:51:55 GMT
I get where you're both coming from (BJR & Salop) but I believe in a weird twist of fate that the membership you talk of would be closer to a May deal than your desired version of Brexit.
But using myself as an example. I'm someone who has been politically minded for the majority of my adult life by force of my old dear (still a pup compared to some but old as fuck compared to others in my final years of my 30s) and I never voted for anyone at a general election until 2017.
I was a lost voter because I couldn't relate to anyone bar maybe Greens (they're still a little extreme for me and I knew based on our voting system it would make as much sense to not bother voting).
That changed in 2015 for a simple reason and it wasn't policies. That imperfect chap represents my hope that politics can be done better. I believe he represents that to many and he's actually started a movement. It's almost fucking cult like. Thank fuck he's not actually a psychopath because it's shit like this that saw Hitler trick everyone in to thinking he was actually a socialist.
It helps that I agree with the vast majority of his policies.
Maybe you're right that if he came out saying pro Brexit many would have probably followed. But maybe he does genuinely think that we are now compared to then best off where we are. Maybe he genuinely rightly or wrongly believes the EU can be changed from within which is what he campaigned for during Brexit. I drove to Birmingham on the way home from London to watch him and he was quite convincing during his remain and reform campaign...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 22:03:36 GMT
I get where you're both coming from (BJR & Salop) but I believe in a weird twist of fate that the membership you talk of would be closer to a May deal than your desired version of Brexit. But using myself as an example. I'm someone who has been politically minded for the majority of my adult life by force of my old dear (still a pup compared to some but old as fuck compared to others in my final years of my 30s) and I never voted for anyone at a general election until 2017. I was a lost voter because I couldn't relate to anyone bar maybe Greens (they're still a little extreme for me and I knew based on our voting system it would make as much sense to not bother voting). That changed in 2015 for a simple reason and it wasn't policies. That imperfect chap represents my hope that politics can be done better. I believe he represents that to many and he's actually started a movement. It's almost fucking cult like. Thank fuck he's not actually a psychopath because it's shit like this that saw Hitler trick everyone in to thinking he was actually a socialist. It helps that I agree with the vast majority of his policies. Maybe you're right that if he came out saying pro Brexit many would have probably followed. But maybe he does genuinely think that we are now compared to then best off where we are. Maybe he genuinely rightly or wrongly believes the EU can be changed from within which is what he campaigned for during Brexit. I drove to Birmingham on the way home from London to watch him and he was quite convincing during his remain and reform campaign... I heard him at the Durham miners " big meeting' in 2017, he was pretty disappointing to be honest and that seemed to be what those around me were saying. I'll accept that some in the left might think that they can deliver socialist policies through the EU when they could not through UK channels.... but for me it has always been about Democracy and sovereignty
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 20, 2018 22:06:53 GMT
awkward....
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 20, 2018 22:08:44 GMT
I get where you're both coming from (BJR & Salop) but I believe in a weird twist of fate that the membership you talk of would be closer to a May deal than your desired version of Brexit. But using myself as an example. I'm someone who has been politically minded for the majority of my adult life by force of my old dear (still a pup compared to some but old as fuck compared to others in my final years of my 30s) and I never voted for anyone at a general election until 2017. I was a lost voter because I couldn't relate to anyone bar maybe Greens (they're still a little extreme for me and I knew based on our voting system it would make as much sense to not bother voting). That changed in 2015 for a simple reason and it wasn't policies. That imperfect chap represents my hope that politics can be done better. I believe he represents that to many and he's actually started a movement. It's almost fucking cult like. Thank fuck he's not actually a psychopath because it's shit like this that saw Hitler trick everyone in to thinking he was actually a socialist. It helps that I agree with the vast majority of his policies. Maybe you're right that if he came out saying pro Brexit many would have probably followed. But maybe he does genuinely think that we are now compared to then best off where we are. Maybe he genuinely rightly or wrongly believes the EU can be changed from within which is what he campaigned for during Brexit. I drove to Birmingham on the way home from London to watch him and he was quite convincing during his remain and reform campaign... I heard him at the Durham miners " big meeting' in 2017, he was pretty disappointing to be honest and that seemed to be what those around me were saying. I'll accept that some in the left might think that they can deliver socialist policies through the EU when they could not through UK channels.... but for me it has always been about Democracy and sovereignty Which of course we've always had.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 20, 2018 22:21:15 GMT
I'm with BJR, Salop and Scargill on this. I think Corbyn should have got behind Brexit, and his followers would have joined him.
I don't understand why some left wingers aren't following the examples of Foot and Benn. I think the dithering, or lack of direction is killing Corbyn at the moment. Sometimes you do have to lead, M.
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