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Post by skemstokie on Dec 19, 2018 20:39:06 GMT
My personal opinion is in years to come some of the leave voters may come to the conclusion they voted leave the EU when what was needed was a change in U.K. politics,first past the post makes it very hard for a new centrist party to evolve and the centre ground is the route for united country no Universal Credit shit from the right,no Loony left policies as neither of the main party would command a overall majority. Skem, I believe there is a great amount of validity in your post, many people voted Leave just to stick two fingers up to a political system that ignored them for generations. To a degree the way Parliament has behaved since the referendum only underlines what these people thought. The issue now is just as much about Remain or Leave as it is about democracy being fulfilled, there will be no winners in this process. As i have said before at my age it will not greatly affect me,it is the younger generation (many of whom who were either were too young or could not be arsed to vote) that i feel for it is not the legacy i want for my grand-kids
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 20:42:07 GMT
Skem, I believe there is a great amount of validity in your post, many people voted Leave just to stick two fingers up to a political system that ignored them for generations. To a degree the way Parliament has behaved since the referendum only underlines what these people thought. The issue now is just as much about Remain or Leave as it is about democracy being fulfilled, there will be no winners in this process. As i have said before at my age it will not greatly affect me,it is the younger generation (many of whom who were either were too young or could not be arsed to vote) that i feel for it is not the legacy i want for my grand-kids Yes ,so do I Skem. That's why it is important that we leave the unaccountable bureaucracy
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 21:28:44 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 22:19:32 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 22:46:30 GMT
Not particularly anything to do with Brexit but some might be interested to know that Pat Condell used to do stand up.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 9:40:00 GMT
Both the EU government and the EU government (!) are now making some plans for a no deal Brexit..... you could call it a managed Brexit......why didn't they start doing so 2 years ago? It may be that we are not ready for a no deal Brexit because we have not prepared, simple as that. If you are moving house you don't start packing in the morning of the move. Moreso you would not " move" until you have somewhere to go... that usually means advanced planning..... but it can be done.
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Post by yeokel on Dec 20, 2018 10:03:40 GMT
I agree with much of what I see/hear Pat say thanks to the links posted on here, but that one is just fantasist bollocks. As much as I want us to leave the EU as it is at the moment, as do you BJR, it is never going to be as simple as simply saying “fuck the lot of you. We don’t like what’s going on and we’re off” and that being the end of it.
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Post by M on Dec 20, 2018 10:14:43 GMT
Both the EU government and the EU government (!) are now making some plans for a no deal Brexit..... you could call it a managed Brexit......why didn't they start doing so 2 years ago? It may be that we are not ready for a no deal Brexit because we have not prepared, simple as that. If you are moving house you don't start packing in the morning of the move. Moreso you would not " move" until you have somewhere to go... that usually means advanced planning..... but it can be done. Just stinks of smoke and mirrors to delay things to their ideal conclusion of May's deal... Irrespective of feelings or what rightly should/shouldn't happen I still feel the only outcome in this is that we see either May's deal passing or another referendum (with or without an election) as the house seems fairly unanimous in rejecting a no deal scenario. Hand on heart as a Brexiteer if those were the only options which would you take? Now I know in one respect we shouldn't be entertaining 'remain' on the ballot paper but lets assume that is an option to break the stalemate?
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Post by yeokel on Dec 20, 2018 10:35:55 GMT
Both the EU government and the EU government (!) are now making some plans for a no deal Brexit..... you could call it a managed Brexit......why didn't they start doing so 2 years ago? It may be that we are not ready for a no deal Brexit because we have not prepared, simple as that. If you are moving house you don't start packing in the morning of the move. Moreso you would not " move" until you have somewhere to go... that usually means advanced planning..... but it can be done. Just stinks of smoke and mirrors to delay things to their ideal conclusion of May's deal... Irrespective of feelings or what rightly should/shouldn't happen I still feel the only outcome in this is that we see either May's deal passing or another referendum (with or without an election) as the house seems fairly unanimous in rejecting a no deal scenario. Hand on heart as a Brexiteer if those were the only options which would you take? Now I know in one respect we shouldn't be entertaining 'remain' on the ballot paper but lets assume that is an option to break the stalemate? I can't see any other outcome but another referrendum. As a matter of interest, my family and I have been part of a national survey for the last sixteen years or so. Each of us gets interviewed once a year about our financial status, health, employment status and prospects, satisfaction with life as it is at the moment, expectations for the future, etc. I believe there are around 40,000 households involved in the survey (so perhaps around 120,000 people) which is non-political and is used to inform government departments (NOT political parties) about trends, experiences, etc. We had our interviews last night. Having a chat to the chap who was with us, after we had finished, he mentioned that another survey which he interviews for (again, on a non-political, neutral basis) is about people’s attitudes towards recent world events, events closer to home and, of course, the political situation of the country at that particular moment. They have, apparently, included Brexit as a discussion area for the last couple of years. He commented that in the experience of the survey as a whole, and in contrast to much of what is reported, the proportions of supporters for Remain & Leave are currently almost identical to the referendum result. He said small numbers of people have changed from one side to the other but, overall, the feeling in the country is almost identical, statistically, to what it was two years ago. It doesn’t ‘prove’ anything, but I thought I would share.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 10:36:40 GMT
Frans Timmermanns ( the left)and Manfred Weber ( the right) are the current candidates for the May elections for the position of President of the EU Commission. Maros Sefcovic withdrew to make way for Timmermanns. Barnier may be in with a shout.I only know bits and bobs about them, just from the internet. Obviously they have more of a presence within the political world of the EU. My point. ...how connected do we feel in all honesty to this important political appointment? It could pass by without even a mention in the media..,...and even if it did our citizens, quite rightly in my opinion, would be completely oblivious to it.In actuality we don't want to be ruled from Brussels and it is a very dangerous ( or leaving yourself open to exploitation.... being taken for a ride) to just let " them" get on with it. One thing that I do know, they won't have the real issues of the UK at the forefront of their minds...... more like" how can we keep the UK in without giving anything away?"
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 20, 2018 10:46:33 GMT
Both the EU government and the EU government (!) are now making some plans for a no deal Brexit..... you could call it a managed Brexit......why didn't they start doing so 2 years ago? It may be that we are not ready for a no deal Brexit because we have not prepared, simple as that. If you are moving house you don't start packing in the morning of the move. Moreso you would not " move" until you have somewhere to go... that usually means advanced planning..... but it can be done. Just stinks of smoke and mirrors to delay things to their ideal conclusion of May's deal... Irrespective of feelings or what rightly should/shouldn't happen I still feel the only outcome in this is that we see either May's deal passing or another referendum (with or without an election) as the house seems fairly unanimous in rejecting a no deal scenario. Hand on heart as a Brexiteer if those were the only options which would you take? Now I know in one respect we shouldn't be entertaining 'remain' on the ballot paper but lets assume that is an option to break the stalemate? I’ll take a second referendum as long as the question is leave with may’s deal or leave with no deal There is no need for remain on the ballot paper as we have all ready voted to leave
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 10:48:37 GMT
Just stinks of smoke and mirrors to delay things to their ideal conclusion of May's deal... Irrespective of feelings or what rightly should/shouldn't happen I still feel the only outcome in this is that we see either May's deal passing or another referendum (with or without an election) as the house seems fairly unanimous in rejecting a no deal scenario. Hand on heart as a Brexiteer if those were the only options which would you take? Now I know in one respect we shouldn't be entertaining 'remain' on the ballot paper but lets assume that is an option to break the stalemate? I can't see any other outcome but another referrendum. As a matter of interest, my family and I have been part of a national survey for the last sixteen years or so. Each of us gets interviewed once a year about our financial status, health, employment status and prospects, satisfaction with life as it is at the moment, expectations for the future, etc. I believe there are around 40,000 households involved in the survey (so perhaps around 120,000 people) which is non-political and is used to inform government departments (NOT political parties) about trends, experiences, etc. We had our interviews last night. Having a chat to the chap who was with us, after we had finished, he mentioned that another survey which he interviews for (again, on a non-political, neutral basis) is about people’s attitudes towards recent world events, events closer to home and, of course, the political situation of the country at that particular moment. They have, apparently, included Brexit as a discussion area for the last couple of years. He commented that in the experience of the survey as a whole, and in contrast to much of what is reported, the proportions of supporters for Remain & Leave are currently almost identical to the referendum result. He said small numbers of people have changed from one side to the other but, overall, the feeling in the country is almost identical, statistically, to what it was two years ago. It doesn’t ‘prove’ anything, but I thought I would share. A referendum may be the case as the only way that Remainers could try to legitimise undermining Brexit and Democracy.....I'm not sure that it has been completely thought through though ( how about that for the idiocincracies if the English language....three different pronunciations of the same letter sequence and no hard ' g').....I think that most would agree that the result would be close... so in reality I don't think that it would " solve the issue once and for all". The debate would still depend upon asking and understanding " the question"... .more confusion, many people would say that we are asking the wrong question, so would never accept the result. Both sides could accuse others of telling lies and fear. If Remain won I think that the Leavers would legitimately be able to say that they had been cheated... we've already had the People's vote. Which party is going to actually propose another referendum, those openly opposing the original result....it would not go down well with many..,...which is why Rudd and Chukka want/ need a cross party alliance to support it. The arguments would be prolonged. I would say this, but the only real way to move on is to leave on March 29 the either under WTO or an imperfect but " can be improved" deal..,..and Remainers should try to make the most of it.
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Post by M on Dec 20, 2018 10:53:50 GMT
Just stinks of smoke and mirrors to delay things to their ideal conclusion of May's deal... Irrespective of feelings or what rightly should/shouldn't happen I still feel the only outcome in this is that we see either May's deal passing or another referendum (with or without an election) as the house seems fairly unanimous in rejecting a no deal scenario. Hand on heart as a Brexiteer if those were the only options which would you take? Now I know in one respect we shouldn't be entertaining 'remain' on the ballot paper but lets assume that is an option to break the stalemate? I can't see any other outcome but another referrendum. As a matter of interest, my family and I have been part of a national survey for the last sixteen years or so. Each of us gets interviewed once a year about our financial status, health, employment status and prospects, satisfaction with life as it is at the moment, expectations for the future, etc. I believe there are around 40,000 households involved in the survey (so perhaps around 120,000 people) which is non-political and is used to inform government departments (NOT political parties) about trends, experiences, etc. We had our interviews last night. Having a chat to the chap who was with us, after we had finished, he mentioned that another survey which he interviews for (again, on a non-political, neutral basis) is about people’s attitudes towards recent world events, events closer to home and, of course, the political situation of the country at that particular moment. They have, apparently, included Brexit as a discussion area for the last couple of years. He commented that in the experience of the survey as a whole, and in contrast to much of what is reported, the proportions of supporters for Remain & Leave are currently almost identical to the referendum result. He said small numbers of people have changed from one side to the other but, overall, the feeling in the country is almost identical, statistically, to what it was two years ago. It doesn’t ‘prove’ anything, but I thought I would share. That is interesting and not really surprising. I suppose if people don't understand what is being asked of them they are probably quite open to being persuaded one way or another (rightly or wrongly which I think is evident in both sides of the Brexit debate) but when people come to a conclusion by direction or process not many will change their mind irrespective of what facts are presented to them. Basically in light of new evidence the majority of people would always stick their fingers in their ears regardless of their political pursuasion... I suspect the only difference if this was rerun is a combination of voters from two years ago turning back up to the polls again in case they're tired of the argument and the demographic difference of more younger voters who are able to vote now and older voters who have fallen off their mortal coil. With that in mind, that's why I think we could see a difference on another vote. Using generalisations there's more younger people likely to vote who are statistically more likely to tick remain and there's less older people who are more likely to tick leave. I know that's a simplified description but the reality is the last general election saw youth turn up to the polls in greater numbers than before and I'd assume that would continue now... This is why it's so important if there is another vote that the questions are right. In one respect to honour the previous vote remain shouldn't be on the ballot, but there is another argument to say it is actually democratic to include it and that we shouldn't fear the will of the people. I appreciate many know full well what they voted for and I don't want to start that line of arguing again but nobody voted for May's deal. There's also a different demographic makeup of the electorate now too with different perspectives... It's a head spinner but I'm curious what the Brexiteers would take given those two likely simple outcomes... May's version of leave or another vote which likely includes the option of remain...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 20, 2018 11:38:26 GMT
The chief economist of the Deutsche Bank speaks more highly and positively of the UK than many of our leaders. "The UK will be ok " " it doesn't have the restrictions of the bureaucratic construct that the EU has"... what can that be I wonder?
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 20, 2018 11:44:36 GMT
Just stinks of smoke and mirrors to delay things to their ideal conclusion of May's deal... Irrespective of feelings or what rightly should/shouldn't happen I still feel the only outcome in this is that we see either May's deal passing or another referendum (with or without an election) as the house seems fairly unanimous in rejecting a no deal scenario. Hand on heart as a Brexiteer if those were the only options which would you take? Now I know in one respect we shouldn't be entertaining 'remain' on the ballot paper but lets assume that is an option to break the stalemate? I’ll take a second referendum as long as the question is leave with may’s deal or leave with no deal There is no need for remain on the ballot paper as we have all ready voted to leave A vote based on Lies.
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Post by yeokel on Dec 20, 2018 12:07:15 GMT
I can't see any other outcome but another referrendum. As a matter of interest, my family and I have been part of a national survey for the last sixteen years or so. Each of us gets interviewed once a year about our financial status, health, employment status and prospects, satisfaction with life as it is at the moment, expectations for the future, etc. I believe there are around 40,000 households involved in the survey (so perhaps around 120,000 people) which is non-political and is used to inform government departments (NOT political parties) about trends, experiences, etc. We had our interviews last night. Having a chat to the chap who was with us, after we had finished, he mentioned that another survey which he interviews for (again, on a non-political, neutral basis) is about people’s attitudes towards recent world events, events closer to home and, of course, the political situation of the country at that particular moment. They have, apparently, included Brexit as a discussion area for the last couple of years. He commented that in the experience of the survey as a whole, and in contrast to much of what is reported, the proportions of supporters for Remain & Leave are currently almost identical to the referendum result. He said small numbers of people have changed from one side to the other but, overall, the feeling in the country is almost identical, statistically, to what it was two years ago. It doesn’t ‘prove’ anything, but I thought I would share. That is interesting and not really surprising. I suppose if people don't understand what is being asked of them they are probably quite open to being persuaded one way or another (rightly or wrongly which I think is evident in both sides of the Brexit debate) but when people come to a conclusion by direction or process not many will change their mind irrespective of what facts are presented to them. Basically in light of new evidence the majority of people would always stick their fingers in their ears regardless of their political pursuasion... I suspect the only difference if this was rerun is a combination of voters from two years ago turning back up to the polls again in case they're tired of the argument and the demographic difference of more younger voters who are able to vote now and older voters who have fallen off their mortal coil. With that in mind, that's why I think we could see a difference on another vote. Using generalisations there's more younger people likely to vote who are statistically more likely to tick remain and there's less older people who are more likely to tick leave. I know that's a simplified description but the reality is the last general election saw youth turn up to the polls in greater numbers than before and I'd assume that would continue now... This is why it's so important if there is another vote that the questions are right. In one respect to honour the previous vote remain shouldn't be on the ballot, but there is another argument to say it is actually democratic to include it and that we shouldn't fear the will of the people. I appreciate many know full well what they voted for and I don't want to start that line of arguing again but nobody voted for May's deal. There's also a different demographic makeup of the electorate now too with different perspectives... It's a head spinner but I'm curious what the Brexiteers would take given those two likely simple outcomes... May's version of leave or another vote which likely includes the option of remain... “ I suspect the only difference if this was rerun is a combination of voters from two years ago turning back up to the polls again in case they're tired of the argument and the demographic difference of more younger voters who are able to vote now and older voters who have fallen off their mortal coil.” The survey is a ‘cradle to grave’ survey (with full participation from age 16) so as people drop off at one end, newer, younger participants join at the other end. The effects of this mimic the scenario above, but the Leave/Remain breakdown appears to be unaffected. I wonder if this is because many of us become more cynical (or realistic) as we get older so perhaps lots of (for example) 48 year old Remainers of the time have now become 50 year old Leavers? An area I would agree with Remainers is that in the event of another referendum, the debate would be a more informed one although there are still massive unknowns on both sides. My instinct is that Remain should not be an option on the ballot paper, however there is no denying that the country as a whole is better informed about the nature of the EU so perhaps the electorate should be given the opportunity to turn away from the EU once again. If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I don’t know. As you’ve said, it is such a head spinner. I started the Brexit campaign as a Remainer but the lack of positivity in the Remain campaign (and the negativity of project fear) changed my mind and I became a voter for Leave. Has much changed since? I still hear very little about the positive benefits of our EU membership, only about the potentially negative consequences of leaving. I also hear nothing from Remain about how it views publicity about the EU Army, continued expansion eastwards, even a potential expansion southwards in to Africa, the effect on employment and wages of so many immigrants from poorer EU areas, etc etc. I see plenty of project fear, but little positivity so, to answer my own question, has much changed from the debate two and a half years ago? I don't think it has.
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Post by M on Dec 20, 2018 12:18:58 GMT
That is interesting and not really surprising. I suppose if people don't understand what is being asked of them they are probably quite open to being persuaded one way or another (rightly or wrongly which I think is evident in both sides of the Brexit debate) but when people come to a conclusion by direction or process not many will change their mind irrespective of what facts are presented to them. Basically in light of new evidence the majority of people would always stick their fingers in their ears regardless of their political pursuasion... I suspect the only difference if this was rerun is a combination of voters from two years ago turning back up to the polls again in case they're tired of the argument and the demographic difference of more younger voters who are able to vote now and older voters who have fallen off their mortal coil. With that in mind, that's why I think we could see a difference on another vote. Using generalisations there's more younger people likely to vote who are statistically more likely to tick remain and there's less older people who are more likely to tick leave. I know that's a simplified description but the reality is the last general election saw youth turn up to the polls in greater numbers than before and I'd assume that would continue now... This is why it's so important if there is another vote that the questions are right. In one respect to honour the previous vote remain shouldn't be on the ballot, but there is another argument to say it is actually democratic to include it and that we shouldn't fear the will of the people. I appreciate many know full well what they voted for and I don't want to start that line of arguing again but nobody voted for May's deal. There's also a different demographic makeup of the electorate now too with different perspectives... It's a head spinner but I'm curious what the Brexiteers would take given those two likely simple outcomes... May's version of leave or another vote which likely includes the option of remain... “ I suspect the only difference if this was rerun is a combination of voters from two years ago turning back up to the polls again in case they're tired of the argument and the demographic difference of more younger voters who are able to vote now and older voters who have fallen off their mortal coil.” The survey is a ‘cradle to grave’ survey (with full participation from age 16) so as people drop off at one end, newer, younger participants join at the other end. The effects of this mimic the scenario above, but the Leave/Remain breakdown appears to be unaffected. I wonder if this is because many of us become more cynical (or realistic) as we get older so perhaps lots of (for example) 48 year old Remainers of the time have now become 50 year old Leavers? An area I would agree with Remainers is that in the event of another referendum, the debate would be a more informed one although there are still massive unknowns on both sides. My instinct is that Remain should not be an option on the ballot paper, however there is no denying that the country as a whole is better informed about the nature of the EU so perhaps the electorate should be given the opportunity to turn away from the EU once again. If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I don’t know. As you’ve said, it is such a head spinner. I started the Brexit campaign as a Remainer but the lack of positivity in the Remain campaign (and the negativity of project fear) changed my mind and I became a voter for Leave. Has much changed since? I still hear very little about the positive benefits of our EU membership, only about the potentially negative consequences of leaving. I also hear nothing from Remain about how it views publicity about the EU Army, continued expansion eastwards, even a potential expansion southwards in to Africa, the effect on employment and wages of so many immigrants from poorer EU areas, etc etc. I see plenty of project fear, but little positivity so, to answer my own question, has much changed from the debate two and a half years ago? I don't think it has. If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I would say that is probably the fairest outcome. So hypothetically if remain got 45%, May's deal 30% and no deal 25% that would result in May's deal being the decision of the people. But... Original spin. IF the option was only May's deal or stay, as a brexiteers what would you choose? I'm labouring that point I suppose because I'm trying to get an idea of just how poorly viewed May's deal is compared to staying...
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Post by yeokel on Dec 20, 2018 12:39:57 GMT
“ I suspect the only difference if this was rerun is a combination of voters from two years ago turning back up to the polls again in case they're tired of the argument and the demographic difference of more younger voters who are able to vote now and older voters who have fallen off their mortal coil.” The survey is a ‘cradle to grave’ survey (with full participation from age 16) so as people drop off at one end, newer, younger participants join at the other end. The effects of this mimic the scenario above, but the Leave/Remain breakdown appears to be unaffected. I wonder if this is because many of us become more cynical (or realistic) as we get older so perhaps lots of (for example) 48 year old Remainers of the time have now become 50 year old Leavers? An area I would agree with Remainers is that in the event of another referendum, the debate would be a more informed one although there are still massive unknowns on both sides. My instinct is that Remain should not be an option on the ballot paper, however there is no denying that the country as a whole is better informed about the nature of the EU so perhaps the electorate should be given the opportunity to turn away from the EU once again. If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I don’t know. As you’ve said, it is such a head spinner. I started the Brexit campaign as a Remainer but the lack of positivity in the Remain campaign (and the negativity of project fear) changed my mind and I became a voter for Leave. Has much changed since? I still hear very little about the positive benefits of our EU membership, only about the potentially negative consequences of leaving. I also hear nothing from Remain about how it views publicity about the EU Army, continued expansion eastwards, even a potential expansion southwards in to Africa, the effect on employment and wages of so many immigrants from poorer EU areas, etc etc. I see plenty of project fear, but little positivity so, to answer my own question, has much changed from the debate two and a half years ago? I don't think it has. If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I would say that is probably the fairest outcome. So hypothetically if remain got 45%, May's deal 30% and no deal 25% that would result in May's deal being the decision of the people. But... Original spin. IF the option was only May's deal or stay, as a brexiteers what would you choose? I'm labouring that point I suppose because I'm trying to get an idea of just how poorly viewed May's deal is compared to staying... I honestly have no idea at the moment. My feeling is that May's deal is worse than Remain as we would effectively still be members of the EU subject to its rules and regulations but would have negotiated away what little influence we have within it. But, if it came to that choice, I would need to become much better informed about the technicalities of May’s deal before voicing an opinion, whilst all the while recognising that May’s Deal is not the final Leave deal, but is only the Withdrawal Agreement which imposes rules for the negotiation of the final deal. It is almost as if they are all (EU & May) trying to make this as difficult as possible. Surely not?
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 20, 2018 12:43:27 GMT
I’ll take a second referendum as long as the question is leave with may’s deal or leave with no deal There is no need for remain on the ballot paper as we have all ready voted to leave A vote based on Lies. No a vote based on the democratic choice of the British people Democratic a lovely word totally lost on the majority of remain voters
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Post by M on Dec 20, 2018 12:51:31 GMT
If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I would say that is probably the fairest outcome. So hypothetically if remain got 45%, May's deal 30% and no deal 25% that would result in May's deal being the decision of the people. But... Original spin. IF the option was only May's deal or stay, as a brexiteers what would you choose? I'm labouring that point I suppose because I'm trying to get an idea of just how poorly viewed May's deal is compared to staying... I honestly have no idea at the moment. My feeling is that May's deal is worse than Remain as we would effectively still be members of the EU subject to its rules and regulations but would have negotiated away what little influence we have within it. But, if it came to that choice, I would need to become much better informed about the technicalities of May’s deal before voicing an opinion, whilst all the while recognising that May’s Deal is not the final Leave deal, but is only the Withdrawal Agreement which imposes rules for the negotiation of the final deal. It is almost as if they are all (EU & May) trying to make this as difficult as possible. Surely not? Yeah. It does appear to be remain stay as leave. From what I understand of it the deal is largely good and does deliver most of what is expected by leavers but that backstop basically keeps us stuck as the pound of flesh individual nations can and probably would ask for would effectively keep us in until we ultimately depart with no deal which I think is clear now that the house has absolutely no appetite for. Once in that backstop I see no reason why the EU would prioritise quick timescales to grant us the ability negotiate our own trade deal either so is basically a massive bag of dicks.
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Post by shangamuzo on Dec 20, 2018 13:39:38 GMT
No a vote based on the democratic choice of the British people Democratic a lovely word totally lost on the majority of remain voters I can't think of anything more undemocratic than conniving at reversing the result of a democratic vote before it's even been implemented. Suck it and see, then if you don't like the taste there's always a way back in.
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 20, 2018 13:46:10 GMT
“ I suspect the only difference if this was rerun is a combination of voters from two years ago turning back up to the polls again in case they're tired of the argument and the demographic difference of more younger voters who are able to vote now and older voters who have fallen off their mortal coil.” The survey is a ‘cradle to grave’ survey (with full participation from age 16) so as people drop off at one end, newer, younger participants join at the other end. The effects of this mimic the scenario above, but the Leave/Remain breakdown appears to be unaffected. I wonder if this is because many of us become more cynical (or realistic) as we get older so perhaps lots of (for example) 48 year old Remainers of the time have now become 50 year old Leavers? An area I would agree with Remainers is that in the event of another referendum, the debate would be a more informed one although there are still massive unknowns on both sides. My instinct is that Remain should not be an option on the ballot paper, however there is no denying that the country as a whole is better informed about the nature of the EU so perhaps the electorate should be given the opportunity to turn away from the EU once again. If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I don’t know. As you’ve said, it is such a head spinner. I started the Brexit campaign as a Remainer but the lack of positivity in the Remain campaign (and the negativity of project fear) changed my mind and I became a voter for Leave. Has much changed since? I still hear very little about the positive benefits of our EU membership, only about the potentially negative consequences of leaving. I also hear nothing from Remain about how it views publicity about the EU Army, continued expansion eastwards, even a potential expansion southwards in to Africa, the effect on employment and wages of so many immigrants from poorer EU areas, etc etc. I see plenty of project fear, but little positivity so, to answer my own question, has much changed from the debate two and a half years ago? I don't think it has. If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I would say that is probably the fairest outcome. So hypothetically if remain got 45%, May's deal 30% and no deal 25% that would result in May's deal being the decision of the people. But... Original spin. IF the option was only May's deal or stay, as a brexiteers what would you choose? I'm labouring that point I suppose because I'm trying to get an idea of just how poorly viewed May's deal is compared to staying... Among the general populous, May's deal polls more or less 50/50 when put head-to-head against Remain. No deal slightly less. Which would suggest the vast majority of Leavers prefer any version of Leave over Remain. May's deal pisses all over no deal, mainly because Remainers would vote for May's deal in that scenario, but a significant number of Leavers (about a third) prefer it too - which, to make the point again, makes a mockery of the line that all Leave voters knew *exactly* what they were voting for.
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Post by M on Dec 20, 2018 13:51:05 GMT
If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I would say that is probably the fairest outcome. So hypothetically if remain got 45%, May's deal 30% and no deal 25% that would result in May's deal being the decision of the people. But... Original spin. IF the option was only May's deal or stay, as a brexiteers what would you choose? I'm labouring that point I suppose because I'm trying to get an idea of just how poorly viewed May's deal is compared to staying... Among the general populous, May's deal polls more or less 50/50 when put head-to-head against Remain. No deal slightly less. Which would suggest the vast majority of Leavers prefer any version of Leave over Remain. May's deal pisses all over no deal, mainly because Remainers would vote for May's deal in that scenario, but a significant number of Leavers (about a third) prefer it too. Just thinking... Is there though in that scenario an argument that some retainers see May's deal as an opportunity to effectively remain?
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 20, 2018 13:52:31 GMT
Among the general populous, May's deal polls more or less 50/50 when put head-to-head against Remain. No deal slightly less. Which would suggest the vast majority of Leavers prefer any version of Leave over Remain. May's deal pisses all over no deal, mainly because Remainers would vote for May's deal in that scenario, but a significant number of Leavers (about a third) prefer it too. Just thinking... Is there though in that scenario an argument that some retainers see May's deal as an opportunity to effectively remain? Just the lesser of two evils innit
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 20, 2018 13:59:01 GMT
No a vote based on the democratic choice of the British people Democratic a lovely word totally lost on the majority of remain voters A democratic vote based on untruths then,which ever way you cut it what the leave camp promised is not what is available in reality and as such in my opinion should go back to the people.
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Post by shangamuzo on Dec 20, 2018 14:02:31 GMT
If it were, and the three options were Remain, 'Leave with May' and 'Leave with WTO' it should be understood that the 'Leave with ***' options would be added together to inform the Remain vs Leave vote and then, in the event of Leave winning, the ‘type of leave’ comes in to play. That way, Remain would have no voice in the ‘type of leave’. Is that fair or right? I would say that is probably the fairest outcome. So hypothetically if remain got 45%, May's deal 30% and no deal 25% that would result in May's deal being the decision of the people. But... Original spin. IF the option was only May's deal or stay, as a brexiteers what would you choose? I'm labouring that point I suppose because I'm trying to get an idea of just how poorly viewed May's deal is compared to staying... Among the general populous, May's deal polls more or less 50/50 when put head-to-head against Remain. No deal slightly less. Which would suggest the vast majority of Leavers prefer any version of Leave over Remain. May's deal pisses all over no deal, mainly because Remainers would vote for May's deal in that scenario, but a significant number of Leavers (about a third) prefer it too - which, to make the point again, makes a mockery of the line that all Leave voters knew *exactly* what they were voting for. They knew in principle what they voted for: To leave the EU , the single market and its obligations. They were explicitly told that's what it would mean.
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Post by shangamuzo on Dec 20, 2018 14:10:22 GMT
No a vote based on the democratic choice of the British people Democratic a lovely word totally lost on the majority of remain voters A democratic vote based on untruths then,which ever way you cut it what the leave camp promised is not what is available in reality and as such in my opinion should go back to the people. Untruths on both sides.
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Post by shangamuzo on Dec 20, 2018 14:17:20 GMT
Boy George produced and circulated a Treasury report that said we'd each and every one of us be 4 grand worse off by 2030 if we dared to vote out.
So to those Remoaners who say nobody voted to be poorer.
It appears that Brits DID vote to be poorer-they thought it was worth it to TAKE BACK CONTROL, no ?
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Post by neworleanstokie on Dec 20, 2018 14:25:15 GMT
You either voted to:
A) Remain - carry on business as usual
B) Leave - and suffer the consequence of either hard Brexit or whatever cobbled together wishy washy agreement the PM could come up with.
It's seems as though the majority of Leavers here are shirking responsibility for outcome B - but that IS what they voted for.
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Post by shangamuzo on Dec 20, 2018 14:29:57 GMT
You either voted to: A) Remain - carry on business as usual B) Leave - and suffer the consequence of either hard Brexit or whatever cobbled together wishy washy agreement the PM could come up with. It's seems as though the majority of Leavers here are shirking responsibility for outcome B - but that IS what they voted for. What are the consequences in your opinion of so called hard brexit ?
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