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Post by yeokel on Dec 19, 2018 16:31:27 GMT
Ok, so now it looks like a large proportion of the UK population are being deemed to be workshy and as a consequence we must have low skilled migrant workers. What did we do 20-30 years ago as I knew locals who worked in chicken factories, care homes, etc etc without issue. Are we accepting that this is how British people now are and if so how has that come about, or is there perhaps a bit of balance to be had by providing opportunity for this type of work and maybe incentivising jobs that, whilst unpleasant,need to be done. I've stood in a queue at McDonalds and listened to two girls who looked about 17 basically outright refuse the concept of working in McDonalds whilst chatting amongst themselves and that they'd prefer to have no work than work there. Then I look across my office at the apprentice I hired 18 months ago who is about the same age and I marvel at just how hard she works. I think we've always had lazy fuckers, always will, but I'd like to think they are in the minority. Maybe there is an argument that a good chunk of Brits aspire for much more and actually see themselves above some roles that are available, or they feel as if they can pick up easier money in other ways and would rather avoid getting their hands dirty or covered in chicken guts... My actual feelings around migration are that I am in favour of it but I would honestly prefer to see it more controlled but only because I don't believe there is currently the political will to invest in to job creating industries. If there was, the more the merrier but currently we are almost bottle necking because everybody is fighting it out against each other to make a living and the blame game ensues which IMO should be directed at policy, not people. But if the door slammed shut tomorrow I do genuinely think we would be worse off for it. Nevermind skilled roles within places like the NHS which would be decimated over at least the short term, but with me not seeing queues of white/black Brits queuing up to become cleaners, car wash boys and girls, fruit pickers, chicken packers etc we could have a cold hard reality check... I've had some professional dealings with the DWP and providers who try to help people get back in to work. Yes, I see people who were not born in the UK, but I can tell you with all certainty that the great majority of them aren't. Literally the only positive I can take from this governments brutal attack on anybody with the audacity to claim benefits is that it has at least forced some of those lazy fuckers to pull their fingers out. It's just a massive shame that we literally lose lives of others deemed fit for work and then die within weeks Policy could make such a difference. Just look at what this government announced recently with regards to people who pay good money to install solar panels and dare to try and take a tiny bit of revenue by selling surplus power back to the grid. Anyone who does this from April onwards won't be able to. They're expected to hand every kW over to private companies for nothing so that they can sell it. This is an industry that could potentially see investment to employ masses for years to come but they are seemingly trying their best to stop it happening... Good post. One of the best I’ve read on here for, well, er, quite a few days actually. The only thing I would add is that the so-called minimum wage, or working wage should be set at a level that stops anybody in work being able to claim ‘tax credits’. If it were, I’m confident we would find a bunch of Brits who are prepared to work rather than exist on benefits. For sure, there are some lazy fuckers among us – always has been & always will be – but it comes down to the old cliché of doing “a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay” which is something certain industries are able to avoid paying as there seems to be an endless stream of E. Europeans to be exploited. If we were to get wages sorted out, certain food prices sorted out, low levels of wages in this country sorted out, employment in this country viv a vis British workers would improve, tax receipts & benefit levels in this country would improve, and levels of low skilled immigration in to this country could all be improved for the better.
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Post by M on Dec 19, 2018 16:40:28 GMT
I've stood in a queue at McDonalds and listened to two girls who looked about 17 basically outright refuse the concept of working in McDonalds whilst chatting amongst themselves and that they'd prefer to have no work than work there. Then I look across my office at the apprentice I hired 18 months ago who is about the same age and I marvel at just how hard she works. I think we've always had lazy fuckers, always will, but I'd like to think they are in the minority. Maybe there is an argument that a good chunk of Brits aspire for much more and actually see themselves above some roles that are available, or they feel as if they can pick up easier money in other ways and would rather avoid getting their hands dirty or covered in chicken guts... My actual feelings around migration are that I am in favour of it but I would honestly prefer to see it more controlled but only because I don't believe there is currently the political will to invest in to job creating industries. If there was, the more the merrier but currently we are almost bottle necking because everybody is fighting it out against each other to make a living and the blame game ensues which IMO should be directed at policy, not people. But if the door slammed shut tomorrow I do genuinely think we would be worse off for it. Nevermind skilled roles within places like the NHS which would be decimated over at least the short term, but with me not seeing queues of white/black Brits queuing up to become cleaners, car wash boys and girls, fruit pickers, chicken packers etc we could have a cold hard reality check... I've had some professional dealings with the DWP and providers who try to help people get back in to work. Yes, I see people who were not born in the UK, but I can tell you with all certainty that the great majority of them aren't. Literally the only positive I can take from this governments brutal attack on anybody with the audacity to claim benefits is that it has at least forced some of those lazy fuckers to pull their fingers out. It's just a massive shame that we literally lose lives of others deemed fit for work and then die within weeks Policy could make such a difference. Just look at what this government announced recently with regards to people who pay good money to install solar panels and dare to try and take a tiny bit of revenue by selling surplus power back to the grid. Anyone who does this from April onwards won't be able to. They're expected to hand every kW over to private companies for nothing so that they can sell it. This is an industry that could potentially see investment to employ masses for years to come but they are seemingly trying their best to stop it happening... Good post. One of the best I’ve read on here for, well, er, quite a few days actually. The only thing I would add is that the so-called minimum wage, or working wage should be set at a level that stops anybody in work being able to claim ‘tax credits’. If it were, I’m confident we would find a bunch of Brits who are prepared to work rather than exist on benefits. For sure, there are some lazy fuckers among us – always has been & always will be – but it comes down to the old cliché of doing “a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay” which is something certain industries are able to avoid paying as there seems to be an endless stream of E. Europeans to be exploited. If we were to get wages sorted out, certain food prices sorted out, low levels of wages in this country sorted out, employment in this country viv a vis British workers would improve, tax receipts & benefit levels in this country would improve, and levels of low skilled immigration in to this country could all be improved for the better. Completely agree. I can't remember the statistics but I believe the vast majority of benefit claiments are actually in work for that very reason. Again, it's a political will but the profit margins of businesses is cared for seemingly more than our own national bottom line...
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 19, 2018 17:19:37 GMT
Taking back control? Open borders? Simply the decision who to let in and on what basis should be decided by Parliament. We can change parliament and therefore the government. If people don't like Javid' s policy, perhaps a Labour government could introduce a more socialist policy What I don't understand is the governments criteria of £ 30,000 pa . There are many roles in the service sector, care, farming etc that will not be filled . The government s position was always immigration would be assessed on the basis of need rather than an open door policy.
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Post by 4372 on Dec 19, 2018 17:21:47 GMT
I am assuming that the vacant employment roles will be filled by people who voted for Brexit?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 17:30:25 GMT
Taking back control? Open borders? Simply the decision who to let in and on what basis should be decided by Parliament. We can change parliament and therefore the government. If people don't like Javid' s policy, perhaps a Labour government could introduce a more socialist policy What I don't understand is the governments criteria of £ 30,000 pa . There are many roles in the service sector, care, farming etc that will not be filled . The government s position was always immigration would be assessed on the basis of need rather than an open door policy. To be honest I have not looked at it. £30000 does seem alot. I think that Cool Dave has answered that in a previous post, a rolling temporary permit/ makes sense. The £30000 perhaps refers to more permanent long term jobs ( but as you say , thinking about it, there probably are such jobs which presently need to be done through immigration that come in below that level - perhaps shows how out of touch rich London MPs are with realistic pay/ same as "affordable" housing. The principle for me is that we should always encourage our existing population to do our existing jobs, whether that be training nurses , doctors or manual tasks. Perhaps some of the latter has to do with working credits/ pay thresholds.But I believe that the bigger point is that we TOTALLY decide not the EU....I think that the last few days/ and the pro brexit days illustrate that we do debate these issues in the UK parliament, people do listen and respond to what's going on/ take an interest But there is no genuine debate in the EU pseudo parliament and no interest from the UK electorate. The British will never relate to Brussels as the seat of government
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Post by M on Dec 19, 2018 17:30:56 GMT
Taking back control? Open borders? Simply the decision who to let in and on what basis should be decided by Parliament. We can change parliament and therefore the government. If people don't like Javid' s policy, perhaps a Labour government could introduce a more socialist policy What I don't understand is the governments criteria of £ 30,000 pa . There are many roles in the service sector, care, farming etc that will not be filled . The government s position was always immigration would be assessed on the basis of need rather than an open door policy. The sceptic in me sees this as a token gesture to say they're doing something whilst making sure people with money can still come and do what they want. Won't help the shortfall as you've said in skilled and none skilled. We've already got a horrible shortage of nurses and we've already seen huge numbers of EU nurses not coming compared to the past mainly because of Brexit uncertainties. You'd hope they would be filled by UK nurses but again the political will of our government has seen bursaries taken away to discourage UK boys and girls to train to become nurses. That along with conditions getting worse for existing nurses just where will they be filled...?
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 19, 2018 17:40:10 GMT
And I was laughed off this message board for saying we may need to pay to visit Europe after Brexit and told it would never happen. Another part of project fear turns to project reality. About the price of a pint at the airport. A trifling figure 😂 But I was still absolutely right, as was so called project fear.
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 19, 2018 17:51:34 GMT
A Corbyn-led No Deal is increasingly becoming my favoured option. Were you a fan of Pol Pot?
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 19, 2018 17:54:22 GMT
What I don't understand is the governments criteria of £ 30,000 pa . There are many roles in the service sector, care, farming etc that will not be filled . The government s position was always immigration would be assessed on the basis of need rather than an open door policy. To be honest I have not looked at it. £30000 does seem alot. I think that Cool Dave has answered that in a previous post, a rolling temporary permit/ makes sense. The £30000 perhaps refers to more permanent long term jobs ( but as you say , thinking about it, there probably are such jobs which presently need to be done through immigration that come in below that level - perhaps shows how out of touch rich London MPs are with realistic pay/ same as "affordable" housing. The principle for me is that we should always encourage our existing population to do our existing jobs, whether that be training nurses , doctors or manual tasks. Perhaps some of the latter has to do with working credits/ pay thresholds.But I believe that the bigger point is that we TOTALLY decide not the EU....I think that the last few days/ and the pro brexit days illustrate that we do debate these issues in the UK parliament, people do listen and respond to what's going on/ take an interest But there is no genuine debate in the EU pseudo parliament and no interest from the UK electorate. The British will never relate to Brussels as the seat of government I despair of this Tory Goverment. They've had two years to come up with an immigration policy that meets the needs of this country and what they've produced is simply absurd.
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Post by 4372 on Dec 19, 2018 17:59:18 GMT
About the price of a pint at the airport. A trifling figure 😂 But I was still absolutely right, as was so called project fear. Being right won't get you far on this thread....
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Dec 19, 2018 18:10:54 GMT
But I was still absolutely right, as was so called project fear. Being right won't get you far on this thread.... Nor will being left
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 19, 2018 18:12:56 GMT
What I don't understand is the governments criteria of £ 30,000 pa . There are many roles in the service sector, care, farming etc that will not be filled . The government s position was always immigration would be assessed on the basis of need rather than an open door policy. The sceptic in me sees this as a token gesture to say they're doing something whilst making sure people with money can still come and do what they want. Won't help the shortfall as you've said in skilled and none skilled. We've already got a horrible shortage of nurses and we've already seen huge numbers of EU nurses not coming compared to the past mainly because of Brexit uncertainties. You'd hope they would be filled by UK nurses but again the political will of our government has seen bursaries taken away to discourage UK boys and girls to train to become nurses. That along with conditions getting worse for existing nurses just where will they be filled...? What people possibly don't realize is I've worked for 50 years in the service sector and for all of that time the industry has been dependent on staff from Europe. This is going back since before our membership of the EU . The service sector has seen massive growth during this period, you only have to look at the number of cafes, patisseries, restaurants, hotels , Dining pubs etc . The need for staff has never been greater
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 18:14:02 GMT
To be honest I have not looked at it. £30000 does seem alot. I think that Cool Dave has answered that in a previous post, a rolling temporary permit/ makes sense. The £30000 perhaps refers to more permanent long term jobs ( but as you say , thinking about it, there probably are such jobs which presently need to be done through immigration that come in below that level - perhaps shows how out of touch rich London MPs are with realistic pay/ same as "affordable" housing. The principle for me is that we should always encourage our existing population to do our existing jobs, whether that be training nurses , doctors or manual tasks. Perhaps some of the latter has to do with working credits/ pay thresholds.But I believe that the bigger point is that we TOTALLY decide not the EU....I think that the last few days/ and the pro brexit days illustrate that we do debate these issues in the UK parliament, people do listen and respond to what's going on/ take an interest But there is no genuine debate in the EU pseudo parliament and no interest from the UK electorate. The British will never relate to Brussels as the seat of government I despair of this Tory Goverment. They've had two years to come up with an immigration policy that meets the needs of this country and what they've produced is simply absurd. Partick, To be honest , if we step back a bit and have a look , generally speaking the whole lot are lacking. Not much real leadership going on...they seem more to want to get what they want ' by devious means' not just a clear strategy. In my opinion. I'm sure there must be 650 more sensible people about who could do a better job. ( Obviously I'm biased and hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if the politicians had respected the vote perhaps it would have been better and clearer if we had gone all guns blazing for proper clean brexit and prepared for it from the outset.....and alongside that tried to negotiate a free trade deal .... but not to put all the eggs in the " deal " basket....the confusion in my opinion is part of a strategy to reverse/ prevent Brexit....or a symptom of not accepting the referendum result).
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 18:20:35 GMT
Guy really sees himself as a spokesman for the Europeans, whom he sees as the citizens of Europe, which for him in turn are those who " belong to the EU"....he often used the phrase " citizens of the EU". Seems like he thinks of the EU as a country. Ever closer union. A bit political comment, not a trading one
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 19, 2018 18:21:12 GMT
I despair of this Tory Goverment. They've had two years to come up with an immigration policy that meets the needs of this country and what they've produced is simply absurd. Partick, To be honest , if we step back a bit and have a look , generally speaking the whole lot are lacking. Not much real leadership going on...they seem more to want to get what they want ' by devious means' not just a clear strategy. In my opinion. I'm sure there must be 650 more sensible people about who could do a better job. ( Obviously I'm biased and hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if the politicians had respected the vote perhaps it would have been better and clearer if we had gone all guns blazing for proper clean brexit and prepared for it from the outset.....and alongside that tried to negotiate a free trade deal .... but not to put all the eggs in the " deal " basket....the confusion in my opinion is part of a strategy to reverse/ prevent Brexit). Regardless of the outcome of Brexit negotiations with the EU, the Government had the obligation to define what future immigration should look like. What they've produced is absurd because it means industries like tourism, agriculture, the health service will be put at a substantial disadvantage as will the low wage parts of the country because of the use of a ludicrous salary cap. So, if you're a banker in the square mile you are quids in and you can bring in who you like. However if you are a farmer in Norfolk or a hotel business on the Isle of Skye or a hospital in Stoke you can't.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 18:28:56 GMT
Partick, To be honest , if we step back a bit and have a look , generally speaking the whole lot are lacking. Not much real leadership going on...they seem more to want to get what they want ' by devious means' not just a clear strategy. In my opinion. I'm sure there must be 650 more sensible people about who could do a better job. ( Obviously I'm biased and hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if the politicians had respected the vote perhaps it would have been better and clearer if we had gone all guns blazing for proper clean brexit and prepared for it from the outset.....and alongside that tried to negotiate a free trade deal .... but not to put all the eggs in the " deal " basket....the confusion in my opinion is part of a strategy to reverse/ prevent Brexit). Regardless of the outcome of Brexit negotiations with the EU, the Government had the obligation to define what future immigration should look like. What they've produced is absurd because it means industries like tourism, agriculture, the health service will be put at a substantial disadvantage as will the low wage parts of the country because of the use of a ludicrous salary cap. So, if you're a banker in the square mile you are quids in and you can bring in who you like. However if you are a farmer in Norfolk or a hotel business on the Isle of Skye or a hospital in Stoke you can't. What you say seems to make sense to me Partick. I think Cool Dave did say something like the ' lower paid' can come in on rolling 12 month contract s' so I suppose you could say that answers the problem for seasonal type jobs.... but clearly the Tories are out of touch on how much many people are actually being paid for actual substantial jobs , outside their bubble and outside of London. Ridiculous. I think affordable housing also starts at about £250000. Most of the new builds going up around where I live start at £375000 but most are £450000 upwards......so we are talking about £75000 deposit and a mortgage of ten times income on £30000
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Dec 19, 2018 18:37:15 GMT
Regardless of the outcome of Brexit negotiations with the EU, the Government had the obligation to define what future immigration should look like. What they've produced is absurd because it means industries like tourism, agriculture, the health service will be put at a substantial disadvantage as will the low wage parts of the country because of the use of a ludicrous salary cap. So, if you're a banker in the square mile you are quids in and you can bring in who you like. However if you are a farmer in Norfolk or a hotel business on the Isle of Skye or a hospital in Stoke you can't. What you say seems to make sense to me Partick. I think Cool Dave did say something like the ' lower paid' can come in on rolling 12 month contract s' so I suppose you could say that answers the problem for seasonal type jobs.... but clearly the Tories are out of touch on how much many people are actually being paid for actual substantial jobs , outside their bubble and outside of London. Ridiculous. I think affordable housing also starts at about £250000. Most of the new builds going up around where I live start at £375000 but most are £450000 upwards......so we are talking about £75000 deposit and a mortgage of ten times income on £30000 No rolling contract - From the Mail - Migrants must earn at least £30,000 before they are allowed to come to Britain on five-year-long visas.
But foreign workers on lower pay could be allowed in where occupations facing shortages or if they work for tech start-ups.
Low-skilled migrants can get 'temporary' one-year visas if they have jobs – but once the permit expires they must leave the country for at least 12 months.
To stop crops rotting in fields, farmers could hire low-skilled workers on seasonal visas. Freedom of movement for people will end, fulfilling a manifesto commitment.
The controversial net migration target of 100,000 looked set to be axed – a move Mrs May resisted. Instead, levels are likely to be 'sustainable'. I can't see much changing from the status quo with the above. Either companies will find a way around the low-skilled migrants bit, the Gov't will give in to demands or the migrants simply won't come. Anyone expecting a massive, sudden change (and there will be thousands that will be) are going to be very disappointed.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 18:43:00 GMT
What you say seems to make sense to me Partick. I think Cool Dave did say something like the ' lower paid' can come in on rolling 12 month contract s' so I suppose you could say that answers the problem for seasonal type jobs.... but clearly the Tories are out of touch on how much many people are actually being paid for actual substantial jobs , outside their bubble and outside of London. Ridiculous. I think affordable housing also starts at about £250000. Most of the new builds going up around where I live start at £375000 but most are £450000 upwards......so we are talking about £75000 deposit and a mortgage of ten times income on £30000 No rolling contract - From the Mail - Migrants must earn at least £30,000 before they are allowed to come to Britain on five-year-long visas.
But foreign workers on lower pay could be allowed in where occupations facing shortages or if they work for tech start-ups.
Low-skilled migrants can get 'temporary' one-year visas if they have jobs – but once the permit expires they must leave the country for at least 12 months.
To stop crops rotting in fields, farmers could hire low-skilled workers on seasonal visas. Freedom of movement for people will end, fulfilling a manifesto commitment.
The controversial net migration target of 100,000 looked set to be axed – a move Mrs May resisted. Instead, levels are likely to be 'sustainable'. I can't see much changing from the status quo with the above. Either companies will find a way around the low-skilled migrants bit, the Gov't will give in to demands or the migrants simply won't come. Anyone expecting a massive, sudden change (and there will be thousands that will be) are going to be very disappointed. I stand corrected Dave, Apologies for mis- remembering you.I do recall that you said that. I guess that if the supply is there, this would still meet our needs ( IF That is the main. Criteria). I'm NIT saying I am in favour, just commenting on what's on the board
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 19, 2018 18:45:48 GMT
I'll bet this chicken boss lives a life of luxury, right? Rakes in millions whilst paying his staff fuck all on shit contracts in shit conditions (Something you seem to be against most of the time, but are strangely seemingly in favour of it when it comes to immigrants) Mostly of Eastern European origin you say? Let me guess, the chicken boss has more than likely got a few mega rich buddies who rent out some houses & cramb in 27 Romanians to each one. Works great for the Romanians too, they get to split the rent 27 ways & can send the rest of their wages back home to the wife & kids to build a nice house in their own country. Can't really do that when you live here though, British people need proper, living wages to be paid. Young people need jobs. All these failed students who enter the real world & suddenly realise their degree in gender studies is worthless need jobs. Just imagine if Mr.Chicken didn't have a never ending supply of cheap foreign wage slaves & instead had to employ young British people on liveable wages.... Hell, maybe these young people could then even get their own place to live, could maybe even be one of those houses currently housing 27 eastern Europeans. Never ending supplies of cheap foreign wage slaves only benefits the rich, whilst also damaging the poor & young of this country. It's something you'd expect Labour voters to be against, unyet it's strangely been made into a virtious act that instead gets you brownie points for being in favour of. NB : Before it gets thrown at me, as it usually does, I'm not against immigration or immigrants, infact it's the exact opposite. I just believe we should only be taking in small, managable numbers of people who meet basic standards. (Like they speak very good English, hugely important in helping them to integrate into the wider community, and they have skills that we need so that they help to benefit & enrich our society.) I'm just against the mass-migration of low skilled wage slaves which, as said above, only helps to make the rich richer, and the poor/young poorer. NB 2 : Kudos for talking about chicken & not threatening us with the chlorinated kind, which is where I thought it'd go when I first heard the word chicken mentioned! chicken boss lives a life of luxury? - I don't know. Didn't meet the boss. I met the head of HR who I would assume has something to do with setting wages. I'm not naive to assume companies like to pay as little as they can but they have a minimum wage to adhere to and even if there is definitely an argument about if that minimum is high enough, if it's slave labour then that is a political point scoring exercise as businesses will wrongly always try and get away with the minimum they can. Something you seem to be against most of the time, but are strangely seemingly in favour of it when it comes to immigrants - I'm assuming you're talking about someone else as that's something I've never been in support of. I've simply pointed out the ethnic mix of one employer I met Let me guess, the chicken boss has more than likely got a few mega rich buddies who rent out some houses & cramb in 27 Romanians to each one - Again, absolutely no idea. Not really sure where you are going with this???? Never ending supplies of cheap foreign wage slaves only benefits the rich - Agreed. But they aren't slaves? They're there on their own decision and doing work that the majority of Brits don't want to do as I was told. I think you need to rephrase that as "low paid workers only benefits the rich" as I'd agree in full but I have no idea what they pay as I didn't care to ask that question at the time and I haven't bothered looking at their careers pages either. NB1 & 2. I'm not debating the merits of immigration. I'm just pointing out there is work out there that Brits don't want to do. Vital work. I've spoken to an employer like you suggested and put their feedback here. Thanks Having lived and drank with a large amount of chicken processing workers for many years Many of whom are of Portuguese decent I can inform you of a few things these hard working people are employed on minimum wage By agencies they have to hold there hands up to go to the toilet and it is noted how many times they go If they are Ill and take time off work they suddenly find themselves not required If they refuse overtime than all of a sudden There not required any more Why do they keep doing the job in Portugal the minimum wage is less than 600 pounds a month if they are lucky to have a job There is no shortage of labour in this country There is a shortage of people who are willing to be EXPLOITED and treated no better than a paid SLAVE The British people are willing to work hard when paid a proper wage and conditions
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 18:56:21 GMT
chicken boss lives a life of luxury? - I don't know. Didn't meet the boss. I met the head of HR who I would assume has something to do with setting wages. I'm not naive to assume companies like to pay as little as they can but they have a minimum wage to adhere to and even if there is definitely an argument about if that minimum is high enough, if it's slave labour then that is a political point scoring exercise as businesses will wrongly always try and get away with the minimum they can. Something you seem to be against most of the time, but are strangely seemingly in favour of it when it comes to immigrants - I'm assuming you're talking about someone else as that's something I've never been in support of. I've simply pointed out the ethnic mix of one employer I met Let me guess, the chicken boss has more than likely got a few mega rich buddies who rent out some houses & cramb in 27 Romanians to each one - Again, absolutely no idea. Not really sure where you are going with this???? Never ending supplies of cheap foreign wage slaves only benefits the rich - Agreed. But they aren't slaves? They're there on their own decision and doing work that the majority of Brits don't want to do as I was told. I think you need to rephrase that as "low paid workers only benefits the rich" as I'd agree in full but I have no idea what they pay as I didn't care to ask that question at the time and I haven't bothered looking at their careers pages either. NB1 & 2. I'm not debating the merits of immigration. I'm just pointing out there is work out there that Brits don't want to do. Vital work. I've spoken to an employer like you suggested and put their feedback here. Thanks Having lived and drank with a large amount of chicken processing workers for many years Many of whom are of Portuguese decent I can inform you of a few things these hard working people are employed on minimum wage By agencies they have to hold there hands up to go to the toilet and it is noted how many times they go If they are Ill and take time off work they suddenly find themselves not required If they refuse overtime than all of a sudden There not required any more Why do they keep doing the job in Portugal the minimum wage is less than 600 pounds a month if they are lucky to have a job There is no shortage of labour in this country There is a shortage of people who are willing to be EXPLOITED and treated no better than a paid SLAVE The British people are willing to work hard when paid a proper wage and conditions Excellent post Waga..... I've always wondered if it is moral to steal doctors etc from developing countries. It's a big world and perhaps instead of trying to cram people into this little island we ought to try to look at different models
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Post by 4372 on Dec 19, 2018 19:02:12 GMT
I have been struck recently by this. On my last few holidays to Portugal the apartments have always been cleaned by Ukrainians. Does this indicate that the Portuguese won't do the work, and if so why is that?
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Post by M on Dec 19, 2018 19:03:53 GMT
Having lived and drank with a large amount of chicken processing workers for many years Many of whom are of Portuguese decent I can inform you of a few things these hard working people are employed on minimum wage By agencies they have to hold there hands up to go to the toilet and it is noted how many times they go If they are Ill and take time off work they suddenly find themselves not required If they refuse overtime than all of a sudden There not required any more Why do they keep doing the job in Portugal the minimum wage is less than 600 pounds a month if they are lucky to have a job There is no shortage of labour in this country There is a shortage of people who are willing to be EXPLOITED and treated no better than a paid SLAVE The British people are willing to work hard when paid a proper wage and conditions Excellent post Waga..... I've always wondered if it is moral to steal doctors etc from developing countries. It's a big world and perhaps instead of trying to cram people into this little island we ought to try to look at different models Like making it appealing to train here...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 19, 2018 19:07:25 GMT
The link shows the EUs current ' no deal' preparations. Seems to me that the effects of being an independent sovereign country could be and can be planned for..... it just means planning for them. ... like most things in life, particularly most changes........ and of course it is a massive change to escape ever closer union and regain our independence, identity and self respect ( no, Im not talking about how our politicians have handled Brexit, but the end product,) as a nation europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm
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Post by pearo on Dec 19, 2018 19:35:39 GMT
I believed the incumbent Prime Minister at the time who told us all on numerous ocassions “ Leave means Leave “ , the fact that he withdrew from office meant that he couldn’t implement this ( This act itself being the first step on the road to a Remainer running the show ). Any statements made by Leave campaigners prior to the vote have been unable to be actioned because none of them have been given the sole authority to act on their statements, the current PM, parliament and the EU won’t allow us to leave and have undermined any Leave campaigner or negotiator in every way possible. So you voted leave because you thought that leave would mean a hard Brexit (as stated by Cameron) but on the other hand you call any stories of hardship caused by a hard Brexit that Cameron and his remain campaign warned of as a part of project fear campaign,seems to be contradictory to me? I voted Leave because at the time of the vote Leave meant Leave ( as I previously explained ). Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, deal, No deal didn’t exist at the time. The only contradiction is by those people who said the result of the referendum would be implemented. As we have all seen in the last 30 months there is actually no will to Leave by the powers that be. Westminster really has no connection with a great proportion of the electorate. The fact that over 400 constituencies have returned the same party at every General Election since the war ( irrespective of boundary changes ) means our MPs have become complacent, to the extent that they think they know best and can ignore what was the largest turnout for a vote in generations.
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Post by M on Dec 19, 2018 19:44:04 GMT
chicken boss lives a life of luxury? - I don't know. Didn't meet the boss. I met the head of HR who I would assume has something to do with setting wages. I'm not naive to assume companies like to pay as little as they can but they have a minimum wage to adhere to and even if there is definitely an argument about if that minimum is high enough, if it's slave labour then that is a political point scoring exercise as businesses will wrongly always try and get away with the minimum they can. Something you seem to be against most of the time, but are strangely seemingly in favour of it when it comes to immigrants - I'm assuming you're talking about someone else as that's something I've never been in support of. I've simply pointed out the ethnic mix of one employer I met Let me guess, the chicken boss has more than likely got a few mega rich buddies who rent out some houses & cramb in 27 Romanians to each one - Again, absolutely no idea. Not really sure where you are going with this???? Never ending supplies of cheap foreign wage slaves only benefits the rich - Agreed. But they aren't slaves? They're there on their own decision and doing work that the majority of Brits don't want to do as I was told. I think you need to rephrase that as "low paid workers only benefits the rich" as I'd agree in full but I have no idea what they pay as I didn't care to ask that question at the time and I haven't bothered looking at their careers pages either. NB1 & 2. I'm not debating the merits of immigration. I'm just pointing out there is work out there that Brits don't want to do. Vital work. I've spoken to an employer like you suggested and put their feedback here. Thanks Having lived and drank with a large amount of chicken processing workers for many years Many of whom are of Portuguese decent I can inform you of a few things these hard working people are employed on minimum wage By agencies they have to hold there hands up to go to the toilet and it is noted how many times they go If they are Ill and take time off work they suddenly find themselves not required If they refuse overtime than all of a sudden There not required any more Why do they keep doing the job in Portugal the minimum wage is less than 600 pounds a month if they are lucky to have a job There is no shortage of labour in this country There is a shortage of people who are willing to be EXPLOITED and treated no better than a paid SLAVE The British people are willing to work hard when paid a proper wage and conditions Agreed. However... It's not exclusive for potugese boys and girls who handle chicken though. Micro management exists in many businesses I've worked for or been contracted to work with. All these businesses focusing on those 1% efficiencies so they can maximise bottom line. Employees being just a number and all that. I can assure you it's not because their favourite dish is sea food and have a better tan than most...
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Post by M on Dec 19, 2018 19:54:52 GMT
Back to this 30k a year piece. I've not checked the statistics recently but I'm sure they said the average wage was about 25k but when you extract the ultra wealthy bankers/execs with 6 and 7 figure bonuses the true average is actually closer to 16-18k...
When you look up salaries with jobs of over 30k you're basically saying an immigrant can only enter if they're likely to be your boss or in a role that would typically require degree education for. I suppose that's useful if students want to avoid paying an education tax for the rest of their lives as they'd never pay off their student loans...
It's logic like that which has always screamed at me during this Brexit farce debate that our biggest problems we face in this country are entirely our policies. The EU is not perfect. There's elements I love and despise but we can fix a lot more of our problems by either having a government who wants to or by bowling down screw fix and yellow vesting up to the max...
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Post by skemstokie on Dec 19, 2018 19:56:17 GMT
So you voted leave because you thought that leave would mean a hard Brexit (as stated by Cameron) but on the other hand you call any stories of hardship caused by a hard Brexit that Cameron and his remain campaign warned of as a part of project fear campaign,seems to be contradictory to me? I voted Leave because at the time of the vote Leave meant Leave ( as I previously explained ). Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, deal, No deal didn’t exist at the time. The only contradiction is by those people who said the result of the referendum would be implemented. As we have all seen in the last 30 months there is actually no will to Leave by the powers that be. Westminster really has no connection with a great proportion of the electorate. The fact that over 400 constituencies have returned the same party at every General Election since the war ( irrespective of boundary changes ) means our MPs have become complacent, to the extent that they think they know best and can ignore what was the largest turnout for a vote in generations. My personal opinion is in years to come some of the leave voters may come to the conclusion they voted leave the EU when what was needed was a change in U.K. politics,first past the post makes it very hard for a new centrist party to evolve and the centre ground is the route for united country no Universal Credit shit from the right,no Loony left policies as neither of the main party would command a overall majority.
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Post by Gods on Dec 19, 2018 20:10:32 GMT
Q1 People in charge of hiring in these sectors say there are not enough indigenous workers keen and willing to fill all these roles. I'd rather listen to them than one of your mad cap rants. Q2 Of course you can work elsewhere but not as a matter or right, you have to go through hoops to work in Australia for example. Q3,What is actually wrong with you? Why are you incapable of rational debate? Why do you insist in putting words in my mouth? For example "suddenly barred from leaving blighty", "lazy workshy wankers" I never said any of that. You seem really jumpy. Have you considered, or perhaps done, some kind of anger management course? If you have then it hasn't worked so far! Q1 Of course the management love a never ending supply of wage slaves, why pay a proper wage when you don't have to. Have you spoke to Tricky yet? He's a care worker, ask him about how great the wages are, and how wonderfully hard all the immigrants work while he just sits on his lazy arse doing nothing. Q2 You don't have to jump through hoops at all, it just takes a bit of planning, but then you are uprooting your family & moving to another country, it's not exactly like we've currently got thousands of people who wake up on a Monday morning & decide "You know what, fuck it! Duck, get the suitcases packed we're off to live in Greece. I'm just nipping down work to tell them I'm quitting, then we're off to the airport". Q3 I'm a straight talker, I like to be blunt, conna be arsed with people who tip-toe around the points they want to make. If you're too precious to deal with that then you can always ignore my posts, no-one forces you to read them. 'If you're too precious...' Judgmental is much closer to the truth than a 'straight talker'.
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Post by pearo on Dec 19, 2018 20:15:16 GMT
I have been struck recently by this. On my last few holidays to Portugal the apartments have always been cleaned by Ukrainians. Does this indicate that the Portuguese won't do the work, and if so why is that? Allegedly the McCanns say it’s easier to bribe the Ukranians
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Post by pearo on Dec 19, 2018 20:32:19 GMT
I voted Leave because at the time of the vote Leave meant Leave ( as I previously explained ). Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, deal, No deal didn’t exist at the time. The only contradiction is by those people who said the result of the referendum would be implemented. As we have all seen in the last 30 months there is actually no will to Leave by the powers that be. Westminster really has no connection with a great proportion of the electorate. The fact that over 400 constituencies have returned the same party at every General Election since the war ( irrespective of boundary changes ) means our MPs have become complacent, to the extent that they think they know best and can ignore what was the largest turnout for a vote in generations. My personal opinion is in years to come some of the leave voters may come to the conclusion they voted leave the EU when what was needed was a change in U.K. politics,first past the post makes it very hard for a new centrist party to evolve and the centre ground is the route for united country no Universal Credit shit from the right,no Loony left policies as neither of the main party would command a overall majority. Skem, I believe there is a great amount of validity in your post, many people voted Leave just to stick two fingers up to a political system that ignored them for generations. To a degree the way Parliament has behaved since the referendum only underlines what these people thought. The issue now is just as much about Remain or Leave as it is about democracy being fulfilled, there will be no winners in this process.
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