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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 3, 2024 9:54:08 GMT
Brexit has failed, the party that mainly wanted it haven't got a clue how to make it work. To push for it and have no plan on how to deliver it is unforgivable. The country wanted it, unfortunately none of the establishment wanted it. Hence this slow labouring acclimatisation to a whole new world that is out there. None of the people capable of making it work wanted it because they knew it wouldn't work. The people who wanted it hadn't a fucking clue how to make it work and expected the competent people to do it for them and are now blaming the people who said it wouldn't work for it not working. Brexit - the gift that keeps on taking.
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Post by superjw on Jun 3, 2024 11:33:15 GMT
Monthly check in. Still shite. Rejoin asap. Labour won’t do another referendum when they get in after the election, so it’s never going to happen. Even if one was done and the vote was to rejoin, it would be years away from happening
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 3, 2024 11:39:05 GMT
Monthly check in. Still shite. Rejoin asap. Labour won’t do another referendum when they get in after the election, so it’s never going to happen. Even if one was done and the vote was to rejoin, it would be years away from happening Which is ashame because the pills suggest it would be voted. Which shows how daft the original vote was.
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Post by foster on Jun 3, 2024 11:39:43 GMT
Labour won’t do another referendum when they get in after the election, so it’s never going to happen. Even if one was done and the vote was to rejoin, it would be years away from happening Which is ashame because the pills suggest it would be voted. Which shows how daft the original vote was. Not everyone is on drugs mate.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 3, 2024 12:16:56 GMT
Monthly check in. Still shite. Rejoin asap. Labour won’t do another referendum when they get in after the election, so it’s never going to happen. Even if one was done and the vote was to rejoin, it would be years away from happening In the short term Labour will just do deals behind the scenes to work more closely with the EU. It was the elderly who disproportionally supported Brext so in about 10 years the generation that got screwed over will force the issue and we will rejoin.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 3, 2024 12:39:55 GMT
Even if we get back in, we will never ever get beneficial terms like we used to have, even though we paid more into Europe than we got back. Many Europeans fucking hate us now, as their countries have directly suffered from not getting our cash. I deal with this attitude weekly at work. If anyone was stupid enough to pretend we are going to ”back in”, we would get rinsed. They fucked up Brexit, nothing is really fixed and many deals still need to be agreed. We only just sorted out collaboration between research institutes and science. It’s a right royal mess on all sides. Europe is imploding politically too right now. Crazy times. Surely if the EU is an organisation which should be mutually beneficial then " they" should not hate us. They should welcome us back into the fold, having seen the error of our ways. No need to hate a partner. Why should we expect a special deal? Surely we should re-enter as fully paid up members. That should mean joining the Euro....the Eurogroup is at the heart of the Union, all members will be required to join in the fullness of time....ever closer union. What's wrong with giving up " our " fishing rights, it's just a case of ' pooling' democracy.....for that matter, if we want to be full members, instead of being half in / half out, what is wrong in allowing ' our' industrial strategy, agricultural strategy, defence strategy, etc being decided from Brussels? Do we really need two Parliaments( which one has precedence?), two sets of MPs, duplicate embassies, separate spokespeople on the world stage eg in respect of Ukraine or Gaza? Even with your tongue firmly planted in your cheek I agree with a lot of that There is no reason EU would treat UK with anything other than friendship if both parties decided to enter reentry talks, as you say if mutually beneficial. I also agree with you it would be based on equitable contribution but without rebates. Having said that I don't see Labour opening full reentry talks in first term but rather adjustments to TCA E.g. SPS Agreement which moves to closer alignment by end of term. Reentry talks could well commence during a second Labour Term. I really don't see Sterling being an issue if to remain or join Euro. It's the fourth biggest Reserve Currency behind Japan albeit 25% of Euro Trading. It should be a simple matter to establish it it were a precondition before talks even commenced It's by no means certain UK will actually take back it's 12 Mile Fishing Rights in 2026, currently it's subject to Annual negotiations on quotas in UK and EU Waters and if course UK Fishermen would like to sell to EU There was a substantial increase in Civil Servants particularly in Foreign, Trade and Home Office after Brexit which to date seems only to have mostly rolled over EU negotiated Trade Deals.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 13:05:05 GMT
Surely if the EU is an organisation which should be mutually beneficial then " they" should not hate us. They should welcome us back into the fold, having seen the error of our ways. No need to hate a partner. Why should we expect a special deal? Surely we should re-enter as fully paid up members. That should mean joining the Euro....the Eurogroup is at the heart of the Union, all members will be required to join in the fullness of time....ever closer union. What's wrong with giving up " our " fishing rights, it's just a case of ' pooling' democracy.....for that matter, if we want to be full members, instead of being half in / half out, what is wrong in allowing ' our' industrial strategy, agricultural strategy, defence strategy, etc being decided from Brussels? Do we really need two Parliaments( which one has precedence?), two sets of MPs, duplicate embassies, separate spokespeople on the world stage eg in respect of Ukraine or Gaza? Even with your tongue firmly planted in your cheek I agree with a lot of that There is no reason EU would treat UK with anything other than friendship if both parties decided to enter reentry talks, as you say if mutually beneficial. I also agree with you it would be based on equitable contribution but without rebates. Having said that I don't see Labour opening full reentry talks in first term but rather adjustments to TCA E.g. SPS Agreement which moves to closer alignment by end of term. Reentry talks could well commence during a second Labour Term. I really don't see Sterling being an issue if to remain or join Euro. It's the fourth biggest Reserve Currency behind Japan albeit 25% of Euro Trading. It should be a simple matter to establish it it were a precondition before talks even commenced It's by no means certain UK will actually take back it's 12 Mile Fishing Rights in 2026, currently it's subject to Annual negotiations on quotas in UK and EU Waters and if course UK Fishermen would like to sell to EU There was a substantial increase in Civil Servants particularly in Foreign, Trade and Home Office after Brexit which to date seems only to have mostly rolled over EU negotiated Trade Deals. At least you acknowledge where decisions are made and by whom, where sovereignty lies. Many Remainers on the Oatcake never actually want/ wanted to be in the EU, just part in, didn't truly embrace the project. If the bits we agree on are true, and if the mood of the country has changed, do you think we simply should rejoin?
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Post by superjw on Jun 3, 2024 13:48:16 GMT
Labour won’t do another referendum when they get in after the election, so it’s never going to happen. Even if one was done and the vote was to rejoin, it would be years away from happening In the short term Labour will just do deals behind the scenes to work more closely with the EU. It was the elderly who disproportionally supported Brext so in about 10 years the generation that got screwed over will force the issue and we will rejoin. It would still need a referendum to open those rejoin processes, which in itself will add years to the process. It could well be just as painful rejoining as it was leaving. Labour “could” have gone bold and opted to at least prepare the nation for another referendum. But I do agree secretive deals behind the scenes are quite likely to be honest
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Post by wannabee on Jun 3, 2024 16:44:55 GMT
Even with your tongue firmly planted in your cheek I agree with a lot of that There is no reason EU would treat UK with anything other than friendship if both parties decided to enter reentry talks, as you say if mutually beneficial. I also agree with you it would be based on equitable contribution but without rebates. Having said that I don't see Labour opening full reentry talks in first term but rather adjustments to TCA E.g. SPS Agreement which moves to closer alignment by end of term. Reentry talks could well commence during a second Labour Term. I really don't see Sterling being an issue if to remain or join Euro. It's the fourth biggest Reserve Currency behind Japan albeit 25% of Euro Trading. It should be a simple matter to establish it it were a precondition before talks even commenced It's by no means certain UK will actually take back it's 12 Mile Fishing Rights in 2026, currently it's subject to Annual negotiations on quotas in UK and EU Waters and if course UK Fishermen would like to sell to EU There was a substantial increase in Civil Servants particularly in Foreign, Trade and Home Office after Brexit which to date seems only to have mostly rolled over EU negotiated Trade Deals. At least you acknowledge where decisions are made and by whom, where sovereignty lies. Many Remainers on the Oatcake never actually want/ wanted to be in the EU, just part in, didn't truly embrace the project. If the bits we agree on are true, and if the mood of the country has changed, do you think we simply should rejoin? You may be surprised to hear even though the Polls say it would be carried now with a 16 point majority I don't think the Country needs more division right now. In five years time depending on how the Economy has performed and also World events the decision to join or not will be obvious and uncontroversial I understand for some not sharing Sovereignty is paramount and I respect that. For me if you want to Trade Internationally and have subcontracted your Foreign Policy to US you have already done so.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 16:58:50 GMT
At least you acknowledge where decisions are made and by whom, where sovereignty lies. Many Remainers on the Oatcake never actually want/ wanted to be in the EU, just part in, didn't truly embrace the project. If the bits we agree on are true, and if the mood of the country has changed, do you think we simply should rejoin? You may be surprised to hear even though the Polls say it would be carried now with a 16 point majority I don't think the Country needs more division right now. In five years time depending on how the Economy has performed and also World events the decision to join or not will be obvious and uncontroversial I understand for some not sharing Sovereignty is paramount and I respect that. For me if you want to Trade Internationally and have subcontracted your Foreign Policy to US you have already done so. We have not subcontracted our foreign policy to the US....eg if we had a Corbyn/ Left government very different policies could be made ( or so we , particularly the Left, have to believe, or the whole democratic system is pointless)....I totally understand what you mean and where you are coming from. Practically and pragmatically if the worst were to happen I respect of world war/ Russia/ China the whole of the West would have to agree to allow the US/ NATO make the big decisions. That is a completely different situation/ system than allowing the European Parliament to be Sovereign over the UK Parliament and joining an organisation set up for political and monetary union. In these times trying to predict what is going to happen in 5 years time is guess work. Not wanting to go off on a different trajectory, I don't think ( the way ) Global trade ( ( is structured) is going to be the deciding factor for a good life and future for our youngsters, the future of developing countries, or the planet. In my opinion we are at a crossroads in history on many fronts, health, environment, and the impact of the Technological revolution ( WWW, internet), which is as big as the Industrial Revolution, ideological conflict, resource ( water?) Scarcity.....and has enabled Global exploitation of workers. Anyway, we shall see.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 3, 2024 17:18:58 GMT
In the short term Labour will just do deals behind the scenes to work more closely with the EU. It was the elderly who disproportionally supported Brext so in about 10 years the generation that got screwed over will force the issue and we will rejoin. It would still need a referendum to open those rejoin processes, which in itself will add years to the process. It could well be just as painful rejoining as it was leaving. Labour “could” have gone bold and opted to at least prepare the nation for another referendum. But I do agree secretive deals behind the scenes are quite likely to be honest There would be no requirement to hold a referendum. UK joined the EEC without the need for a Referendum and subsequently held a Referendum to confirm remaining. No Referendum was required just a Conservative Parliamentary majority to approve the Maastricht Treaty establishing the EU nor later under Labour to approve the Lisbon Treaty which established the EU Constitution UK held an advisory Referendum in 2016 to leave/remain in EU albeit Cameron agreed to abide by the decision it had no legal status under UK Parliamentary Rules. Any "deals" UK does with EU as a third party Country would be the same as with any deals it does with any other country and would be published unless we turn into a dictatorship. Sunak has already done a Deal with EU replacing the Protocol with Winsor Framework UK Citizens lend their Sovereignty to the MP they elect to represent them in Parliament to make any decisions they believe to be in their constituents interests. The Sovereignty Citizens retain is to elect a new MP at the next GE. When a new Parliament is elected they are not bound by any decisions a previous Parliament has made.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 3, 2024 22:26:26 GMT
This thread and the media generally focus on the economic impacts of Brexit, but the fundamental reason for Brexit was not economic but political. There are other threads that tear our UK politicians to bits, but the fundamental point of Brexit for me is that British law should be made by British politicians answerable to the British public as they will be on 4th July and not drafted by EU bureaucrats and enacted in Brussels and subject to the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the EU. Turning to your post and the subsequent debate on the value of the £ sterling. The value of currency and for that matter shares/FTSE depends on confidence and market expectations. They are not real values in the sense of a retail price; as as soon as there is a strong movement in the market there is a volatile reaction, e.g. as soon as a share starts being sold the value drops rapidly. The FTSE is currently very high but could change over night, but that does not mean the economy has changed over night. In the case of currency, the exchange rate can fluctuate in anticipation of an interest rate change even before one does or doesn't take place. The value of the £ dropped sharply during the Truss administration but that did not mean the economy suddenly contracted. When a currency or share is considered "high" there is confidence in the currency and an expectation that its trading value will increase in the future. The expectation in 2015 and early 2016 was that the economy would continue to recover from the 2008 recession and the value of the £ improve, and that when the referendum was announced that Remain would win. The result was a shock to the establishment of the UK and led to major concern in the money markets about the future given all the doom and gloom forecasts of a Brexit by the incumbent Tory government. We now know project fear was unfounded. There is a view that prior to the referendum the £ was over valued by "5% to 20%" fullfact.org/economy/exchange-rates-and-imf/#:~:text=Just%20before%20the%20referendum%2C%20the,agreed%20that%20sterling%20was%20overvalued The referendum result could be said to have caused a "correction" in the value of the £ in 2016 and it has remained relatively stable since, apart from the Truss fiasco, despite drawn out negotiations to leave the EU and a period of uncertainty, the pandemic, the anti British US president, leaving the EU, the inflation impact of a war in Europe, and the comings and goings of Downing Street residents! All things considered the UK currency has performed well for the last 8 years, because essentially the UK economy is sound despite all the anti Brexit rhetoric and Tory government shenanigans. I have posted at length in the past on the benefits of strong or weak £. As someone who worked for businesses heavily into imports of raw materials and exports of product, changes in currency value work both ways. Most manufacturing business people in my experience want stability above everything as volatility leads to difficulty in planning and making deals, and doubt about investing in the future. The fall in the value of the £ post referendum did lead to record exports in 2018 and 2019. www.gov.uk/government/news/2019-was-record-breaking-year-for-uk-exportsHowever it also led to increased cost of imports further increasing in the trade deficit, which had been ever growing for decades during EU membership: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-trade-in-2018-trade-deficit-widens/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20the%20UK%20exported,goods%20every%20year%20since%201982 Membership of the EU particularly since Maarstricht and entry of East European states has been damaging to the UK economy causing low investment, low wages, and a steady decline in UK's relative position in GDP per capita. Today the UK economy has ridden out the pandemic, leaving the EU, the huge peak in inflation due to the war, the Truss fiasco, and a mild technical recession. The above post highlights the soundness of the UK currency and, whilst I would not use that as an economic indicator as it could change overnight, the basic premise of the post that the UK economy is in a healthier than people give it credit holds true, despite all the negativity published by the anti Brexit media. We have full employment with the lowest unemployment levels not seen since the 1970s, higher real wage increases than most of our peers, the highest rate of investment for decades, trade with our main customer the US is growing fast at a record level, and the UK is a world leader in the technologies of the future. With the future benefits of trade deals with the rest of the world which represents over 80% of the world economy and growing faster than the EU, the future is bright. On the 23rd May 2016 the Cameron government stated that "a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6% off GDP and, over 2 years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU. In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6%, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more." www.gov.uk/government/speeches/brexit-would-put-our-economy-in-serious-danger-article-by-david-cameron-and-george-osborneThe reality is stopping freedom of movement has reduced unemployment and the economy is doing so well employers are having to bring in 100,000s of workers from abroad to fill jobs, and job vacancies are still at levels never seen during EU membership. On 12th June 2016 the British people were told "the government might not be able to protect spending on pensions, the NHS and defence in the long term if the UK leaves the EU. " www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36509931The pensions triple lock has returned pensions to c. 24% of average full time earnings. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/the-triple-lock-how-will-state-pensions-be-uprated-in-future/NHS spending may be inadequate but has actually exceeded the plan set in 2015 by the then Cameron government and NHS employee numbers rise each year to a new record. www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/nhs-spending-plans-and-reality-over-the-past-10-yearsThe OBR forecasts are based on traditional assumptions. They assumed a post Brexit large drop in immigration impacting negatively on the economy, whereas immigration has actually increased since Brexit. The trade forecasts are based on trade intensity theory and traditional gravity model. But high trade intensity makes you vulnerable to world events as Germany has suffered, whilst the US with one of the lowest trade intensity is expanding the fastest of the G7. Trade intensity and gravity theory does not explain the huge growth in China's economy over recent decades, and China is another country like the US that has a much lower trade intensity than the UK. Trade intensity and gravity theory are also based on traditional historical trade of goods whereas the UK economy is largely a service economy, which is growing more strongly than the rest of the G7, particularly with the US. The OBR took no account of the potential benefit of any new trade deals as they thought they would take many years to be in place. Instead of admitting they got it wrong for the Cameron government, the OBR are now saying their predictions are "on track" and they don't expect the full impact of Brexit to be realised for "several years". thinkscotland.org/2023/11/time-for-the-obr-to-admit-it-got-brexit-wrong/The anti Brexit story keeps changing, first we were told a vote to leave the EU would precipitate a recession, house price collapse, etc. When that didn’t happen, we were told well we haven't left yet. When we left and the UK economy expanded more than the other G7 in 2020 and 2021, we were told that is just a post pandemic effect. Now we are being told the impact of Brexit is a long term gradual process. This view is contrary to that of Makoto Uchida, the chief executive of Nissan, who has said that the impact of Brexit on its UK operations is now negligible. He has urged the country to be more optimistic about its prospects. It was announced only today that the growth of UK manufacturing production and new orders hit two-year highs in May. I am not one to engage in forecasts other than repeatedly stating my faith in the future of the UK, not because of UK politicians, but despite them. The UK peoples are among the most talented in the world in terms of enterprise, inventiveness, and shear hard work. The future is not down to government but how the nation performs. According to The Centre for Economics and Business Research last December the UK will be Europe’s best-performing major economy in the next 15 years. Last October the IMF forecast only 0.6% UK growth in 2024; they are now predicting the UK economy will grow faster than Germany, Japan, Italy, and France. Time will tell. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedd1nd5d9go#:~:text=The%20IMF%20did%20indeed%20predict,%25)%20or%20Japan%20(4.4%25 For those who want to delve deeper into the state of the UK economy I recommend the next link: spearswms.com/wealth/reasons-to-be-bullish-on-britain/
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Post by cvillestokie on Jun 4, 2024 1:08:52 GMT
This thread and the media generally focus on the economic impacts of Brexit, but the fundamental reason for Brexit was not economic but political. How do you separate economic from political given that politics drives the economy and economic prosperity drives policy? Do you think that it was just a massive coincidence that those areas hit hardest by austerity were the very areas leading the way for Brexit? UKIP offered a protest vote against the establishment that included economic reform in the form of tax breaks for the poor and an improved NHS. They also happened to be the only party who wanted out of EU. Tories took on that policy, then had to deliver. They delivered in spectacular Tory fashion, further screwing over the people that wanted change for them, not for a select few sitting high up on a hill. 8 years after that vote and you still have people looking for a protest vote in the very same areas. It’s the very reason why Farage has clambered out from under the woodwork today.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 4, 2024 3:38:43 GMT
This thread and the media generally focus on the economic impacts of Brexit, but the fundamental reason for Brexit was not economic but political. You may have that view and you're quite entitled to it along with your Sovereignty, but may I suggest not everyone voted to be poorer but were promised Sunlit Uplands There are other threads that tear our UK politicians to bits, but the fundamental point of Brexit for me is that British law should be made by British politicians answerable to the British public as they will be on 4th July and not drafted by EU bureaucrats and enacted in Brussels and subject to the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the EU. And yet you personally are prepared to operate a complete double standard, You object to ECJ open Jurisdiction within EU but have no issue with Secret Courts under CPTPP Trade Agreement that can sue UK Government without any knowledge of the British Public ever. You have avoided this question previously, I expect you will do so again
You have taken a completely fraudulent and preposterous position The CPTPP agreement contains Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) provisions. These allow corporations to sue states through a secretive parallel legal system if government polices threaten their future profits – even if those policies are aimed at protecting human rights and the environment. Corporations have already used ISDS to sue governments more than a thousand times, including over laws aimed at raising minimum wages, guaranteeing affordable water to citizens and phasing out the use of fossil fuels.
committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/110788/html/ committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/110788/html/#:~:text=The%20CPTPP%20agreement%20contains%20Investor,human%20rights%20and%20the%20environment.
Turning to your post and the subsequent debate on the value of the £ sterling. The value of currency and for that matter shares/FTSE depends on confidence and market expectations. Total poppycock it depends on the underlying performance of the Countries Economy and the performance of the Companies Shares being TradedThey are not real values in the sense of a retail price at the risk of upsetting your Christian values, what Fucking Book are you reading
At this point I'll give up further comment as I expect any reply will be deflection and more obfuscation ; as as soon as there is a strong movement in the market there is a volatile reaction, e.g. as soon as a share starts being sold the value drops rapidly. The FTSE is currently very high but could change over night, but that does not mean the economy has changed over night. In the case of currency, the exchange rate can fluctuate in anticipation of an interest rate change even before one does or doesn't take place. The value of the £ dropped sharply during the Truss administration but that did not mean the economy suddenly contracted. When a currency or share is considered "high" there is confidence in the currency and an expectation that its trading value will increase in the future. The expectation in 2015 and early 2016 was that the economy would continue to recover from the 2008 recession and the value of the £ improve, and that when the referendum was announced that Remain would win. The result was a shock to the establishment of the UK and led to major concern in the money markets about the future given all the doom and gloom forecasts of a Brexit by the incumbent Tory government. We now know project fear was unfounded. There is a view that prior to the referendum the £ was over valued by "5% to 20%" fullfact.org/economy/exchange-rates-and-imf/#:~:text=Just%20before%20the%20referendum%2C%20the,agreed%20that%20sterling%20was%20overvalued The referendum result could be said to have caused a "correction" in the value of the £ in 2016 and it has remained relatively stable since, apart from the Truss fiasco, despite drawn out negotiations to leave the EU and a period of uncertainty, the pandemic, the anti British US president, leaving the EU, the inflation impact of a war in Europe, and the comings and goings of Downing Street residents! All things considered the UK currency has performed well for the last 8 years, because essentially the UK economy is sound despite all the anti Brexit rhetoric and Tory government shenanigans. I have posted at length in the past on the benefits of strong or weak £. As someone who worked for businesses heavily into imports of raw materials and exports of product, changes in currency value work both ways. Most manufacturing business people in my experience want stability above everything as volatility leads to difficulty in planning and making deals, and doubt about investing in the future. The fall in the value of the £ post referendum did lead to record exports in 2018 and 2019. www.gov.uk/government/news/2019-was-record-breaking-year-for-uk-exportsHowever it also led to increased cost of imports further increasing in the trade deficit, which had been ever growing for decades during EU membership: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-trade-in-2018-trade-deficit-widens/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20the%20UK%20exported,goods%20every%20year%20since%201982 Membership of the EU particularly since Maarstricht and entry of East European states has been damaging to the UK economy causing low investment, low wages, and a steady decline in UK's relative position in GDP per capita. Today the UK economy has ridden out the pandemic, leaving the EU, the huge peak in inflation due to the war, the Truss fiasco, and a mild technical recession. The above post highlights the soundness of the UK currency and, whilst I would not use that as an economic indicator as it could change overnight, the basic premise of the post that the UK economy is in a healthier than people give it credit holds true, despite all the negativity published by the anti Brexit media. We have full employment with the lowest unemployment levels not seen since the 1970s, higher real wage increases than most of our peers, the highest rate of investment for decades, trade with our main customer the US is growing fast at a record level, and the UK is a world leader in the technologies of the future. With the future benefits of trade deals with the rest of the world which represents over 80% of the world economy and growing faster than the EU, the future is bright. On the 23rd May 2016 the Cameron government stated that "a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6% off GDP and, over 2 years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU. In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6%, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more." www.gov.uk/government/speeches/brexit-would-put-our-economy-in-serious-danger-article-by-david-cameron-and-george-osborneThe reality is stopping freedom of movement has reduced unemployment and the economy is doing so well employers are having to bring in 100,000s of workers from abroad to fill jobs, and job vacancies are still at levels never seen during EU membership. On 12th June 2016 the British people were told "the government might not be able to protect spending on pensions, the NHS and defence in the long term if the UK leaves the EU. " www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36509931The pensions triple lock has returned pensions to c. 24% of average full time earnings. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/the-triple-lock-how-will-state-pensions-be-uprated-in-future/NHS spending may be inadequate but has actually exceeded the plan set in 2015 by the then Cameron government and NHS employee numbers rise each year to a new record. www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/nhs-spending-plans-and-reality-over-the-past-10-yearsThe OBR forecasts are based on traditional assumptions. They assumed a post Brexit large drop in immigration impacting negatively on the economy, whereas immigration has actually increased since Brexit. The trade forecasts are based on trade intensity theory and traditional gravity model. But high trade intensity makes you vulnerable to world events as Germany has suffered, whilst the US with one of the lowest trade intensity is expanding the fastest of the G7. Trade intensity and gravity theory does not explain the huge growth in China's economy over recent decades, and China is another country like the US that has a much lower trade intensity than the UK. Trade intensity and gravity theory are also based on traditional historical trade of goods whereas the UK economy is largely a service economy, which is growing more strongly than the rest of the G7, particularly with the US. The OBR took no account of the potential benefit of any new trade deals as they thought they would take many years to be in place. Instead of admitting they got it wrong for the Cameron government, the OBR are now saying their predictions are "on track" and they don't expect the full impact of Brexit to be realised for "several years". thinkscotland.org/2023/11/time-for-the-obr-to-admit-it-got-brexit-wrong/The anti Brexit story keeps changing, first we were told a vote to leave the EU would precipitate a recession, house price collapse, etc. When that didn’t happen, we were told well we haven't left yet. When we left and the UK economy expanded more than the other G7 in 2020 and 2021, we were told that is just a post pandemic effect. Now we are being told the impact of Brexit is a long term gradual process. This view is contrary to that of Makoto Uchida, the chief executive of Nissan, who has said that the impact of Brexit on its UK operations is now negligible. He has urged the country to be more optimistic about its prospects. It was announced only today that the growth of UK manufacturing production and new orders hit two-year highs in May. I am not one to engage in forecasts other than repeatedly stating my faith in the future of the UK, not because of UK politicians, but despite them. The UK peoples are among the most talented in the world in terms of enterprise, inventiveness, and shear hard work. The future is not down to government but how the nation performs. According to The Centre for Economics and Business Research last December the UK will be Europe’s best-performing major economy in the next 15 years. Last October the IMF forecast only 0.6% UK growth in 2024; they are now predicting the UK economy will grow faster than Germany, Japan, Italy, and France. Time will tell. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedd1nd5d9go#:~:text=The%20IMF%20did%20indeed%20predict,%25)%20or%20Japan%20(4.4%25 For those who want to delve deeper into the state of the UK economy I recommend the next link: spearswms.com/wealth/reasons-to-be-bullish-on-britain/
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 4, 2024 19:55:13 GMT
This concept was talked about pre-referendum but was dismissed out of hand by Brexiteers.
The evidence speaks for itself ...
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 4, 2024 21:35:56 GMT
This thread and the media generally focus on the economic impacts of Brexit, but the fundamental reason for Brexit was not economic but political. You may have that view and you're quite entitled to it along with your Sovereignty, but may I suggest not everyone voted to be poorer but were promised Sunlit Uplands There are other threads that tear our UK politicians to bits, but the fundamental point of Brexit for me is that British law should be made by British politicians answerable to the British public as they will be on 4th July and not drafted by EU bureaucrats and enacted in Brussels and subject to the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the EU. And yet you personally are prepared to operate a complete double standard, You object to ECJ open Jurisdiction within EU but have no issue with Secret Courts under CPTPP Trade Agreement that can sue UK Government without any knowledge of the British Public ever. You have avoided this question previously, I expect you will do so again
You have taken a completely fraudulent and preposterous position The CPTPP agreement contains Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) provisions. These allow corporations to sue states through a secretive parallel legal system if government polices threaten their future profits – even if those policies are aimed at protecting human rights and the environment. Corporations have already used ISDS to sue governments more than a thousand times, including over laws aimed at raising minimum wages, guaranteeing affordable water to citizens and phasing out the use of fossil fuels.
committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/110788/html/ committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/110788/html/#:~:text=The%20CPTPP%20agreement%20contains%20Investor,human%20rights%20and%20the%20environment.
Turning to your post and the subsequent debate on the value of the £ sterling. The value of currency and for that matter shares/FTSE depends on confidence and market expectations. Total poppycock it depends on the underlying performance of the Countries Economy and the performance of the Companies Shares being TradedThey are not real values in the sense of a retail price at the risk of upsetting your Christian values, what Fucking Book are you reading
At this point I'll give up further comment as I expect any reply will be deflection and more obfuscation ; as as soon as there is a strong movement in the market there is a volatile reaction, e.g. as soon as a share starts being sold the value drops rapidly. The FTSE is currently very high but could change over night, but that does not mean the economy has changed over night. In the case of currency, the exchange rate can fluctuate in anticipation of an interest rate change even before one does or doesn't take place. The value of the £ dropped sharply during the Truss administration but that did not mean the economy suddenly contracted. When a currency or share is considered "high" there is confidence in the currency and an expectation that its trading value will increase in the future. The expectation in 2015 and early 2016 was that the economy would continue to recover from the 2008 recession and the value of the £ improve, and that when the referendum was announced that Remain would win. The result was a shock to the establishment of the UK and led to major concern in the money markets about the future given all the doom and gloom forecasts of a Brexit by the incumbent Tory government. We now know project fear was unfounded. There is a view that prior to the referendum the £ was over valued by "5% to 20%" fullfact.org/economy/exchange-rates-and-imf/#:~:text=Just%20before%20the%20referendum%2C%20the,agreed%20that%20sterling%20was%20overvalued The referendum result could be said to have caused a "correction" in the value of the £ in 2016 and it has remained relatively stable since, apart from the Truss fiasco, despite drawn out negotiations to leave the EU and a period of uncertainty, the pandemic, the anti British US president, leaving the EU, the inflation impact of a war in Europe, and the comings and goings of Downing Street residents! All things considered the UK currency has performed well for the last 8 years, because essentially the UK economy is sound despite all the anti Brexit rhetoric and Tory government shenanigans. I have posted at length in the past on the benefits of strong or weak £. As someone who worked for businesses heavily into imports of raw materials and exports of product, changes in currency value work both ways. Most manufacturing business people in my experience want stability above everything as volatility leads to difficulty in planning and making deals, and doubt about investing in the future. The fall in the value of the £ post referendum did lead to record exports in 2018 and 2019. www.gov.uk/government/news/2019-was-record-breaking-year-for-uk-exportsHowever it also led to increased cost of imports further increasing in the trade deficit, which had been ever growing for decades during EU membership: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/uk-trade-in-2018-trade-deficit-widens/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20the%20UK%20exported,goods%20every%20year%20since%201982 Membership of the EU particularly since Maarstricht and entry of East European states has been damaging to the UK economy causing low investment, low wages, and a steady decline in UK's relative position in GDP per capita. Today the UK economy has ridden out the pandemic, leaving the EU, the huge peak in inflation due to the war, the Truss fiasco, and a mild technical recession. The above post highlights the soundness of the UK currency and, whilst I would not use that as an economic indicator as it could change overnight, the basic premise of the post that the UK economy is in a healthier than people give it credit holds true, despite all the negativity published by the anti Brexit media. We have full employment with the lowest unemployment levels not seen since the 1970s, higher real wage increases than most of our peers, the highest rate of investment for decades, trade with our main customer the US is growing fast at a record level, and the UK is a world leader in the technologies of the future. With the future benefits of trade deals with the rest of the world which represents over 80% of the world economy and growing faster than the EU, the future is bright. On the 23rd May 2016 the Cameron government stated that "a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6% off GDP and, over 2 years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU. In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6%, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more." www.gov.uk/government/speeches/brexit-would-put-our-economy-in-serious-danger-article-by-david-cameron-and-george-osborneThe reality is stopping freedom of movement has reduced unemployment and the economy is doing so well employers are having to bring in 100,000s of workers from abroad to fill jobs, and job vacancies are still at levels never seen during EU membership. On 12th June 2016 the British people were told "the government might not be able to protect spending on pensions, the NHS and defence in the long term if the UK leaves the EU. " www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36509931The pensions triple lock has returned pensions to c. 24% of average full time earnings. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/the-triple-lock-how-will-state-pensions-be-uprated-in-future/NHS spending may be inadequate but has actually exceeded the plan set in 2015 by the then Cameron government and NHS employee numbers rise each year to a new record. www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/nhs-spending-plans-and-reality-over-the-past-10-yearsThe OBR forecasts are based on traditional assumptions. They assumed a post Brexit large drop in immigration impacting negatively on the economy, whereas immigration has actually increased since Brexit. The trade forecasts are based on trade intensity theory and traditional gravity model. But high trade intensity makes you vulnerable to world events as Germany has suffered, whilst the US with one of the lowest trade intensity is expanding the fastest of the G7. Trade intensity and gravity theory does not explain the huge growth in China's economy over recent decades, and China is another country like the US that has a much lower trade intensity than the UK. Trade intensity and gravity theory are also based on traditional historical trade of goods whereas the UK economy is largely a service economy, which is growing more strongly than the rest of the G7, particularly with the US. The OBR took no account of the potential benefit of any new trade deals as they thought they would take many years to be in place. Instead of admitting they got it wrong for the Cameron government, the OBR are now saying their predictions are "on track" and they don't expect the full impact of Brexit to be realised for "several years". thinkscotland.org/2023/11/time-for-the-obr-to-admit-it-got-brexit-wrong/The anti Brexit story keeps changing, first we were told a vote to leave the EU would precipitate a recession, house price collapse, etc. When that didn’t happen, we were told well we haven't left yet. When we left and the UK economy expanded more than the other G7 in 2020 and 2021, we were told that is just a post pandemic effect. Now we are being told the impact of Brexit is a long term gradual process. This view is contrary to that of Makoto Uchida, the chief executive of Nissan, who has said that the impact of Brexit on its UK operations is now negligible. He has urged the country to be more optimistic about its prospects. It was announced only today that the growth of UK manufacturing production and new orders hit two-year highs in May. I am not one to engage in forecasts other than repeatedly stating my faith in the future of the UK, not because of UK politicians, but despite them. The UK peoples are among the most talented in the world in terms of enterprise, inventiveness, and shear hard work. The future is not down to government but how the nation performs. According to The Centre for Economics and Business Research last December the UK will be Europe’s best-performing major economy in the next 15 years. Last October the IMF forecast only 0.6% UK growth in 2024; they are now predicting the UK economy will grow faster than Germany, Japan, Italy, and France. Time will tell. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cedd1nd5d9go#:~:text=The%20IMF%20did%20indeed%20predict,%25)%20or%20Japan%20(4.4%25 For those who want to delve deeper into the state of the UK economy I recommend the next link: spearswms.com/wealth/reasons-to-be-bullish-on-britain/ "When we left and the UK economy expanded more than the other G7 in 2020 and 2021, we were told that is just a post pandemic effect." UK economy shrank 10.4% in 2020. grew 8.7% in 2021 ( net effect -2.6% over 20/21) US economy shrank 2.8% in 2020 /grew 5.9% in 2021 (net effect +2.9%) German economy shrank 3.8% in 2020, grew 3.2% in 2021 (net effect -0.3%) I don't know what maths MrCoke is using but of course he rewrites history all the time. If he's going to come on here with such blatantly incorrect statements it's really not worth spending the time pulling the rest of his 'facts' to pieces.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 4, 2024 22:22:20 GMT
"When we left and the UK economy expanded more than the other G7 in 2020 and 2021, we were told that is just a post pandemic effect." UK economy shrank 10.4% in 2020. grew 8.7% in 2021 ( net effect -2.6% over 20/21) US economy shrank 2.8% in 2020 /grew 5.9% in 2021 (net effect +2.9%) German economy shrank 3.8% in 2020, grew 3.2% in 2021 (net effect -0.3%) I don't know what maths MrCoke is using but of course he rewrites history all the time. If he's going to come on here with such blatantly incorrect statements it's really not worth spending the time pulling the rest of his 'facts' to pieces. My sincere apologies, I should of course have said the UK GDP expanded the most in the G7 in 2021 and 2022. Thank you for pointing out this error. My source for the following is Trading Economic web site. (https://tradingeconomics.com/ full year growth stats.) GDP Annual Growth Of G7 Countries for 2021: UK 8.7%, USA 5.8%, Italy 7%, France 6.4%, Canada 5.287%, Germany 3.2%, Japan 2.6% GDP Annual Growth Of G7 Countries for 2022: UK 4.3%, Canada 3.8199%, Italy 4%, France 2.5%, US 1.9%, Germany 1.8%, Japan 1% I assure you I have no intention to rewrite history but report facts, but on this occasion I slipped up on the year dates and apologize. Please advise of any other errors of fact. The UK economy did indeed shrink more than other countries in 2020 due to the pandemic due in turn to a number of factors such as Johnson's slowness to lock down, the UK high level of service economy, amount of commuting, the high level in UK inward and outward international travel. etc. The pandemic effect is still with us in terms of the high level of long term sick, NHS waiting lists/backlog, and economic inactivity of over 50s who have chosen not to return to (full time) work. Despite these factors the UK economy is in a healthy state as described by Neil Woodford in the article in my last link of my post. I trust you have not found any errors in his stats.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Jun 5, 2024 8:18:57 GMT
"When we left and the UK economy expanded more than the other G7 in 2020 and 2021, we were told that is just a post pandemic effect." UK economy shrank 10.4% in 2020. grew 8.7% in 2021 ( net effect -2.6% over 20/21) US economy shrank 2.8% in 2020 /grew 5.9% in 2021 (net effect +2.9%) German economy shrank 3.8% in 2020, grew 3.2% in 2021 (net effect -0.3%) I don't know what maths MrCoke is using but of course he rewrites history all the time. If he's going to come on here with such blatantly incorrect statements it's really not worth spending the time pulling the rest of his 'facts' to pieces. My sincere apologies, I should of course have said the UK GDP expanded the most in the G7 in 2021 and 2022. Thank you for pointing out this error. My source for the following is Trading Economic web site. (https://tradingeconomics.com/ full year growth stats.) GDP Annual Growth Of G7 Countries for 2021: UK 8.7%, USA 5.8%, Italy 7%, France 6.4%, Canada 5.287%, Germany 3.2%, Japan 2.6% GDP Annual Growth Of G7 Countries for 2022: UK 4.3%, Canada 3.8199%, Italy 4%, France 2.5%, US 1.9%, Germany 1.8%, Japan 1% I assure you I have no intention to rewrite history but report facts, but on this occasion I slipped up on the year dates and apologize. Please advise of any other errors of fact. The UK economy did indeed shrink more than other countries in 2020 due to the pandemic due in turn to a number of factors such as Johnson's slowness to lock down, the UK high level of service economy, amount of commuting, the high level in UK inward and outward international travel. etc. The pandemic effect is still with us in terms of the high level of long term sick, NHS waiting lists/backlog, and economic inactivity of over 50s who have chosen not to return to (full time) work. Despite these factors the UK economy is in a healthy state as described by Neil Woodford in the article in my last link of my post. I trust you have not found any errors in his stats. Thankyou for the correction. Regarding the UK economy , "low growth" is the term repeated over and over hence the holes in the public finances which will require cuts in expenditure post-election. As I previously mentioned on the Tory thread , on the day the latest GDP figures were announced the analyst on the radio pointed out that since Q4 2019 the US economy had grown 8.3% , the Eurozone 3,8% and the UK economy 1.3%. And then of course there is GDP per capita in a nation where net immigration was 1.4 million over 2022/23....
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 5, 2024 12:49:33 GMT
My sincere apologies, I should of course have said the UK GDP expanded the most in the G7 in 2021 and 2022. Thank you for pointing out this error. My source for the following is Trading Economic web site. (https://tradingeconomics.com/ full year growth stats.) GDP Annual Growth Of G7 Countries for 2021: UK 8.7%, USA 5.8%, Italy 7%, France 6.4%, Canada 5.287%, Germany 3.2%, Japan 2.6% GDP Annual Growth Of G7 Countries for 2022: UK 4.3%, Canada 3.8199%, Italy 4%, France 2.5%, US 1.9%, Germany 1.8%, Japan 1% I assure you I have no intention to rewrite history but report facts, but on this occasion I slipped up on the year dates and apologize. Please advise of any other errors of fact. The UK economy did indeed shrink more than other countries in 2020 due to the pandemic due in turn to a number of factors such as Johnson's slowness to lock down, the UK high level of service economy, amount of commuting, the high level in UK inward and outward international travel. etc. The pandemic effect is still with us in terms of the high level of long term sick, NHS waiting lists/backlog, and economic inactivity of over 50s who have chosen not to return to (full time) work. Despite these factors the UK economy is in a healthy state as described by Neil Woodford in the article in my last link of my post. I trust you have not found any errors in his stats. Thankyou for the correction. Regarding the UK economy , "low growth" is the term repeated over and over hence the holes in the public finances which will require cuts in expenditure post-election. As I previously mentioned on the Tory thread , on the day the latest GDP figures were announced the analyst on the radio pointed out that since Q4 2019 the US economy had grown 8.3% , the Eurozone 3,8% and the UK economy 1.3%. And then of course there is GDP per capita in a nation where net immigration was 1.4 million over 2022/23.... You are quite correct on GDP growth. Most of the world, not just the US has grown faster than the EU for decades. As I posted in Appendix 2 of my review of last year's UK performance, UK growth has been in decline since joining the EEC. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/8101275/threadThe root cause is lack of investment both corporate and government. Why should business invest in UK when costs are lower and returns are better abroad? Government struggles to invest because of a huge balance of payments deficit, which undermines the currency and growing since Maasricht. Fortunately we are seeing a sea change since Brexit. As the Neil Woodford link demonstrates business investment has increased. Fixed capital investment is at its highest since the 20th century. It is still not good enough and it takes time for investment to yield a return, but at least the tide has changed since 2020. Immigration is very high but a lot of it is temporary such as students and seasonal workers on short term work permits. A large group are relatives and dependants of previous immigrants, so that group can be expected to decline. There are many millions of former EU citizens have taken up UK permanent residency and are being joined by relatives. I recall in the 00s there were many east European workers arriving but leaving their families "at home". Many of those workers returned to their homeland during the pandemic and many are now remaining here and are bringing their families to the UK. Putting aside immigration from Hong Kong and Ukraine, finally there are a great many workers coming to fill vacant jobs businesses and government (eg NHS) that need filling. It is hardly surprising that the political parties are promising reduction but not promising a target number because most immigration will peak (eg students) or decline (eg relatives) but the number of workers needed may actually increase if the economy grows strongly from the higher investment. There are circa 900k job vacancies that need workers. What we need is more investment in automation, robotics (UK is very poor at this) and AI. The increased population does increase GDP, but as you correctly point out does not improve GDP per capita. However studies have repeatedly shown that whilst immigration does put an extra load on services such as NHS, education, etc, on balance immigrants make a net contribution to society. Our NHS is heavily dependent on immigration. So a policy to stop immigration would be very damaging to business and social services.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 6, 2024 7:26:20 GMT
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Post by henry on Jun 6, 2024 7:30:47 GMT
Weren’t passports needed before Brexit?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 9, 2024 19:46:15 GMT
My wife’s colleague was in a WTO committee meeting the other day. Apparently the entire world, led by China and the US, were laying into the EU for their regulations preventing a carcinogenic material being used in children’s toys! The UK were not laying into them as we still have the same regulations carried over from being a member.
That’s a great example of why being closely aligned to the EU is vital.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 9, 2024 20:05:36 GMT
My wife’s colleague was in a WTO committee meeting the other day. Apparently the entire world, led by China and the US, were laying into the EU for their regulations preventing a carcinogenic material being used in children’s toys! The UK were not laying into them as we still have the same regulations carried over from being a member. That’s a great example of why being closely aligned to the EU is vital. Yes we need a government that raises all environmental standards, irrespective of the EU
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 9, 2024 20:09:35 GMT
I see Macron has called a general election in light of the surge to the right in Europe. It is a pity that the EU Parliament has virtually no power or influence in the EU, that lies in the unelected Commission ( see Corbyn?) LIVE . Macron calls snap elections as far-right support surges in European elections www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-69102843
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 9, 2024 22:36:25 GMT
My wife’s colleague was in a WTO committee meeting the other day. Apparently the entire world, led by China and the US, were laying into the EU for their regulations preventing a carcinogenic material being used in children’s toys! The UK were not laying into them as we still have the same regulations carried over from being a member. That’s a great example of why being closely aligned to the EU is vital. Yes we need a government that raises all environmental standards, irrespective of the EU I concur. We need a government that sets the standards and makes agreements which the majority of British people want, but you will never get a majority to agree. Nevertheless it for each of us to vote for the party that best suits our wishes, be it environment, social services, NHS, trade agreements, defence, taxation policy etc. etc. , the list seems endless. The penny has not yet dropped with Remainers that Brexit is about the British citizens electing the people who make the law and carry out government policy. If you don't like some aspect like environment policy or trade agreements, then vote for a party that will do what you want. Better still join it and actively campaign for it. I quote Tony Benn: "........................ in the course of my life I have developed five little questions. If one meets a powerful person — Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates — ask them five questions: what power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” .... “If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.”
In the EU all law is drafted by the Commission and framed in accordance with the treaties to progress towards ever closer union. But it seems that EU farmers have more influence on EU policy than David Cameron ever had: "Europe farmers protests: EU scraps plans to halve pesticide use" www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68218907 The UK Agriculture Act entails changes designed to ensure that by 2028, farmers in England can sustainably produce healthy food profitably without subsidy. I hope future governments improve the legislation. It is clearly going to take a long time to reverse the environmental damage of half a century of the EU Common Agricultural Policy.
Brexit is about democratic accountability. A nation has the right to choose its government. That applies equally to Scotland and Northern Ireland. What amazes me is when you read the threads on this message board so highly critical of UK politicians, that so many want to hand over power to unelected bureaucrats and foreign politicians who are only interested in promoting the interests of their own countries. Do people think the UK is the only country with corrupt politicians? The EU Commission say* "The European Union is one of the least corrupt regions in the world. However, none of the EU countries is fully free from corruption. Although its nature and scope may differ from one EU country to another, corruption harms the EU as a whole." I say let's make the UK the least corrupt country in the world by exposing and ensuring any corrupt UK politicians are thrown out of office. *https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/internal-security/corruption_en Revolving doors: uncaccoalition.org/beyond-the-scandals-the-status-of-revolving-doors-in-the-eu/ danielfreund.eu/ombudsman-revolving-door-out-of-control/?lang=en
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Post by wannabee on Jun 9, 2024 23:44:33 GMT
Yes we need a government that raises all environmental standards, irrespective of the EU I concur. We need a government that sets the standards and makes agreements which the majority of British people want, but you will never get a majority to agree. Nevertheless it for each of us to vote for the party that best suits our wishes, be it environment, social services, NHS, trade agreements, defence, taxation policy etc. etc. , the list seems endless. The penny has not yet dropped with Remainers that Brexit is about the British citizens electing the people who make the law and carry out government policy. If you don't like some aspect like environment policy or trade agreements, then vote for a party that will do what you want. Better still join it and actively campaign for it. I quote Tony Benn: "........................ in the course of my life I have developed five little questions. If one meets a powerful person — Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates — ask them five questions: what power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” .... “If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.”
In the EU all law is drafted by the Commission and framed in accordance with the treaties to progress towards ever closer union. But it seems that EU farmers have more influence on EU policy than David Cameron ever had: "Europe farmers protests: EU scraps plans to halve pesticide use" www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68218907 The UK Agriculture Act entails changes designed to ensure that by 2028, farmers in England can sustainably produce healthy food profitably without subsidy. I hope future governments improve the legislation. It is clearly going to take a long time to reverse the environmental damage of half a century of the EU Common Agricultural Policy.
Brexit is about democratic accountability. A nation has the right to choose its government. That applies equally to Scotland and Northern Ireland. What amazes me is when you read the threads on this message board so highly critical of UK politicians, that so many want to hand over power to unelected bureaucrats and foreign politicians who are only interested in promoting the interests of their own countries. Do people think the UK is the only country with corrupt politicians? The EU Commission say* "The European Union is one of the least corrupt regions in the world. However, none of the EU countries is fully free from corruption. Although its nature and scope may differ from one EU country to another, corruption harms the EU as a whole." I say let's make the UK the least corrupt country in the world by exposing and ensuring any corrupt UK politicians are thrown out of office. *https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/internal-security/corruption_en Revolving doors: uncaccoalition.org/beyond-the-scandals-the-status-of-revolving-doors-in-the-eu/ danielfreund.eu/ombudsman-revolving-door-out-of-control/?lang=en
Are you seriously suggesting that UK has an effective "Revolving Door" Policy after Greensill and ex PM and now Foreign Secretary Cameron which cost UK Taxpayers £5Bn? Never mind that "Call me Dave" made $10M before the whole FRAUD collapsed, further nevermind Lord Dave was then appointed Foreign Secretary which meant no Parliamentary scrutiny, I'm sure you approve You know the bloke, you may have seen him hobnobbing with Biden, Sarkozy and Schultz because Sunak was too busy and had to go and do a TV interview You also failed to update Emily O'Reilly's update more than a year later on progress made in EU closing loopholes medium.com/@euombudsman/safeguarding-integrity-across-the-european-institutions-75a77e42efc4Now that Parliament is in recess and well over a hundred ex Ministers and MPs will be out of a Job in four weeks time. Do you think it may be problematic or deliberate that UK Government neglected to introduce ANY Rules? www.spotlightcorruption.org/britains-revolving-door-rules-broken/You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. Matthew 6:1 BTW I'm not expecting a reply as you don't to many other posts
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Post by phileetin on Jun 10, 2024 10:19:48 GMT
do us woke lefties really really want to join a neo nazi extreme right wing europe ?
perhaps we should let russia annexe us instead ?
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 10, 2024 14:35:16 GMT
Yes we need a government that raises all environmental standards, irrespective of the EU I concur. We need a government that sets the standards and makes agreements which the majority of British people want, but you will never get a majority to agree. Nevertheless it for each of us to vote for the party that best suits our wishes, be it environment, social services, NHS, trade agreements, defence, taxation policy etc. etc. , the list seems endless. The penny has not yet dropped with Remainers that Brexit is about the British citizens electing the people who make the law and carry out government policy. If you don't like some aspect like environment policy or trade agreements, then vote for a party that will do what you want. Better still join it and actively campaign for it. I quote Tony Benn: "........................ in the course of my life I have developed five little questions. If one meets a powerful person — Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates — ask them five questions: what power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” .... “If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.”
In the EU all law is drafted by the Commission and framed in accordance with the treaties to progress towards ever closer union. But it seems that EU farmers have more influence on EU policy than David Cameron ever had: "Europe farmers protests: EU scraps plans to halve pesticide use" www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68218907 The UK Agriculture Act entails changes designed to ensure that by 2028, farmers in England can sustainably produce healthy food profitably without subsidy. I hope future governments improve the legislation. It is clearly going to take a long time to reverse the environmental damage of half a century of the EU Common Agricultural Policy.
Brexit is about democratic accountability. A nation has the right to choose its government. That applies equally to Scotland and Northern Ireland. What amazes me is when you read the threads on this message board so highly critical of UK politicians, that so many want to hand over power to unelected bureaucrats and foreign politicians who are only interested in promoting the interests of their own countries. Do people think the UK is the only country with corrupt politicians? The EU Commission say* "The European Union is one of the least corrupt regions in the world. However, none of the EU countries is fully free from corruption. Although its nature and scope may differ from one EU country to another, corruption harms the EU as a whole." I say let's make the UK the least corrupt country in the world by exposing and ensuring any corrupt UK politicians are thrown out of office. *https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/internal-security/corruption_en Revolving doors: uncaccoalition.org/beyond-the-scandals-the-status-of-revolving-doors-in-the-eu/ danielfreund.eu/ombudsman-revolving-door-out-of-control/?lang=en
Just commenting on this part of what you said: “ you will never get a majority to agree”. The majority of the people everywhere do not what carcinogenic materials in children’s toys. Yet it is the aggressive capitalist nature of the world that is critical of this, with just the EU and us standing firm.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 10, 2024 15:11:21 GMT
I concur. We need a government that sets the standards and makes agreements which the majority of British people want, but you will never get a majority to agree. Nevertheless it for each of us to vote for the party that best suits our wishes, be it environment, social services, NHS, trade agreements, defence, taxation policy etc. etc. , the list seems endless. The penny has not yet dropped with Remainers that Brexit is about the British citizens electing the people who make the law and carry out government policy. If you don't like some aspect like environment policy or trade agreements, then vote for a party that will do what you want. Better still join it and actively campaign for it. I quote Tony Benn: "........................ in the course of my life I have developed five little questions. If one meets a powerful person — Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates — ask them five questions: what power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” .... “If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.”
In the EU all law is drafted by the Commission and framed in accordance with the treaties to progress towards ever closer union. But it seems that EU farmers have more influence on EU policy than David Cameron ever had: "Europe farmers protests: EU scraps plans to halve pesticide use" www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68218907 The UK Agriculture Act entails changes designed to ensure that by 2028, farmers in England can sustainably produce healthy food profitably without subsidy. I hope future governments improve the legislation. It is clearly going to take a long time to reverse the environmental damage of half a century of the EU Common Agricultural Policy.
Brexit is about democratic accountability. A nation has the right to choose its government. That applies equally to Scotland and Northern Ireland. What amazes me is when you read the threads on this message board so highly critical of UK politicians, that so many want to hand over power to unelected bureaucrats and foreign politicians who are only interested in promoting the interests of their own countries. Do people think the UK is the only country with corrupt politicians? The EU Commission say* "The European Union is one of the least corrupt regions in the world. However, none of the EU countries is fully free from corruption. Although its nature and scope may differ from one EU country to another, corruption harms the EU as a whole." I say let's make the UK the least corrupt country in the world by exposing and ensuring any corrupt UK politicians are thrown out of office. *https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/internal-security/corruption_en Revolving doors: uncaccoalition.org/beyond-the-scandals-the-status-of-revolving-doors-in-the-eu/ danielfreund.eu/ombudsman-revolving-door-out-of-control/?lang=en
Just commenting on this part of what you said: “ you will never get a majority to agree”. The majority of the people everywhere do not what carcinogenic materials in children’s toys. Yet it is the aggressive capitalist nature of the world that is critical of this, with just the EU and us standing firm. The EU is rife with counterfeit toys as I pointed out on my post supporting checking imports from the EU. www.occrp.org/en/daily/17740-millions-of-counterfeit-toys-seized-across-europeIt is one thing to have standards and another to enforce compliance. Brussels sits and makes the rules, but it up to individual national governments to enforce them, which in my experience a lot don't. Ironically down the decades it's Belgium that is consistently one of the worst countries to comply with EU legislation. www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/rules-european-union-belgium-romania
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 10, 2024 16:36:56 GMT
Just commenting on this part of what you said: “ you will never get a majority to agree”. The majority of the people everywhere do not what carcinogenic materials in children’s toys. Yet it is the aggressive capitalist nature of the world that is critical of this, with just the EU and us standing firm. The EU is rife with counterfeit toys as I pointed out on my post supporting checking imports from the EU. www.occrp.org/en/daily/17740-millions-of-counterfeit-toys-seized-across-europeIt is one thing to have standards and another to enforce compliance. Brussels sits and makes the rules, but it up to individual national governments to enforce them, which in my experience a lot don't. Ironically down the decades it's Belgium that is consistently one of the worst countries to comply with EU legislation. www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/rules-european-union-belgium-romaniaWe have murderers in this country despite our laws. That is not an argument against having a law against committing murder. I would prefer to have a law that says materials that cause cancer are prohibited from children’s toys than to just allow it to happen and then have to check every single children’s toy you purchase for what it is made from.
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