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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 10:15:23 GMT
The post was definitely disagreeable. I had it down as "miserable" at first, but on reflection that did not sum up accurately the feeling of disappointment your post left me with. The issue of displaced people has largely been settled, though it is not as good as the solution we had before 2016. The issue was your view, blithely stated, that EU citizens could simply choose between a life in the UK and a life in the EU. For many, that must have been a difficult decision to make. You have to accept that these people had to change their life circumstances, as a result of your vote. That is alongside the deterioration in the rights of future British generations that your vote has brought about. I read today that some Wales fans were turned away from Amsterdam and from watching the football, whereas Danish fans will be allowed in because apparently these are the rules nowadays. I have not been at home today, and have not had chance to back that one up yet. Not entirely sure that any replacement scheme will come about for a long time yet, and it will never be as good as the arrangements that you could exploit yourself when the UK was in the EU. As you say, you travelled widely in Europe... The remainder of your post, as we have said before, we are just not going to agree, and there is little point in discussing it further. As far as I am concerned, you have gone down a rabbit hole of populist propaganda. (Ever Closer Union, the idea that each EU state is not a sovereign body, the idea that the UK was willing to remain inside Erasmus). I have also travelled widely in Europe, and have never encountered the sort of anti-EU sentiment you describe and imagine. I see people at ease with the prosperity, peace and progress made possible by the co-operation between states through the EU. Instead we have disputes over sausages, and fishing rights, and the apparent re-imposition of roaming charges for UK visitors to the EU. If the European Union isn’t a sovereign state or has aspirations there of Why do they have ambassadors and embassies around the world Same reason they have representation at G7 summits etc, because they are a large trading bloc which probably has significant economic and political implications for other countries to deal with.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 10:16:15 GMT
Surprised our resident animal standards expert hasnt mentioned this as he seemed very keen on highlighting the australian standards. Well it hasn’t taken them long to lower standards once were no longer there to keep them in check Maybe it’s time to to ban European meat products until they stop the practice Ah, Brexit, the race to the bottom so many people suggested it would result in...
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 25, 2021 10:18:14 GMT
Well it hasn’t taken them long to lower standards once were no longer there to keep them in check Maybe it’s time to to ban European meat products until they stop the practice Ah, Brexit, the race to the bottom so many people suggested it would result in... Yes it appears the European Union’s standards are dropping Shameful really
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 10:28:46 GMT
Ah, Brexit, the race to the bottom so many people suggested it would result in... Yes it appears the European Union’s standards are dropping Shameful really Yep, all so avoidable really.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 25, 2021 10:34:23 GMT
Yes it appears the European Union’s standards are dropping Shameful really Yep, all so avoidable really. Correct we’ve avoided it well
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Post by thevoid on Jun 25, 2021 11:37:04 GMT
More Brexit dividend news. Extra dividends for the shareholders that is. Rip off mobile roaming charges are coming back. Hands up who believed the mobile operators who said they wouldn't introduce them again after Brexit? www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57595913BM A whole £2 per day or £28 for a fortnight bit of a pain but compared to the costs of lateral flow tests or whatever you need to go on holiday its peanuts, I actually find it quite refreshing to leave my phone in the hotel room, one of the main reasons to go on holiday for me is to get away from people who phone you when you are on holiday, only turn it on to use the free hotel wifi. It's hardly like you can't get free WiFi in bars/restaurants abroad and who wants to be glued to a mobile on holiday anyway? First world problems 😎
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 13:07:13 GMT
Btw, waga, a joke's a joke, but you should give those 10,000 pigeons back now, youth
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 13:21:53 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 13:31:58 GMT
Meanwhile...Germany overtakes UK on the road to recovery according to the DT. "Across the eurozone activity is bubbling up at the fastest pace in 15 years, according to financial data firm IHS Markit's latest activity gauges. French business confidence has soared further still, as both economies shake off the crisis months ahead of the UK economy. The flood of positive data indicate a summer boom on the continent according to Andrew Kenningham, chief economist at Capital Economics. May and June will reveal very good months for Eurozone GDP. By contrast, the UK has already enjoyed its reopening surge," he said. I thought the EU was literally going up in flames before our eyes...
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 25, 2021 14:04:09 GMT
Meanwhile...Germany overtakes UK on the road to recovery according to the DT. "Across the eurozone activity is bubbling up at the fastest pace in 15 years, according to financial data firm IHS Markit's latest activity gauges. French business confidence has soared further still, as both economies shake off the crisis months ahead of the UK economy. The flood of positive data indicate a summer boom on the continent according to Andrew Kenningham, chief economist at Capital Economics. May and June will reveal very good months for Eurozone GDP. By contrast, the UK has already enjoyed its reopening surge," he said. I thought the EU was literally going up in flames before our eyes... How about Spain Greece Italy how are they doing
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 25, 2021 14:10:43 GMT
Meanwhile...Germany overtakes UK on the road to recovery according to the DT. "Across the eurozone activity is bubbling up at the fastest pace in 15 years, according to financial data firm IHS Markit's latest activity gauges. French business confidence has soared further still, as both economies shake off the crisis months ahead of the UK economy. The flood of positive data indicate a summer boom on the continent according to Andrew Kenningham, chief economist at Capital Economics. May and June will reveal very good months for Eurozone GDP. By contrast, the UK has already enjoyed its reopening surge," he said. I thought the EU was literally going up in flames before our eyes... The EU is 2 months behind the UK with record business optimism, post pandemic. Yes Germany is doing better than UK, but let us see how the rest of the EU actually performs. Time will tell which countries get back to 2019 GDP first. The Commission are busy approving national plans and releasing borrowed money as part of the EU pandemic Recovery Project. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/22/eu-coronavirus-rescue-fund-will-build-united-states-europe-says/The recovery project effectively locks in countries to the EU as part of the conditions is any borrowing from the EU fund must be paid back before leaving the EU. Italy and Greece are taking on massive extra debt on top of existing massive debt. Even Keynsians are worried about the amount of borrowing the Eurozone is taking on. With the borrowing the UK, EU, USA, and other nations are taking on there is a serious risk of world inflation. I believe there is a serious risk, post pandemic, that the Eastern world will take domination of the world economy.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 14:14:18 GMT
Meanwhile...Germany overtakes UK on the road to recovery according to the DT. "Across the eurozone activity is bubbling up at the fastest pace in 15 years, according to financial data firm IHS Markit's latest activity gauges. French business confidence has soared further still, as both economies shake off the crisis months ahead of the UK economy. The flood of positive data indicate a summer boom on the continent according to Andrew Kenningham, chief economist at Capital Economics. May and June will reveal very good months for Eurozone GDP. By contrast, the UK has already enjoyed its reopening surge," he said. I thought the EU was literally going up in flames before our eyes... How about Spain Greece Italy how are they doing They're in the Eurozone, so covered by the Kenningham quote. Obviously there will be variation from country to country, but the Eurozone as a whole is what was being considered above, as it says.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 14:16:53 GMT
Meanwhile...Germany overtakes UK on the road to recovery according to the DT. "Across the eurozone activity is bubbling up at the fastest pace in 15 years, according to financial data firm IHS Markit's latest activity gauges. French business confidence has soared further still, as both economies shake off the crisis months ahead of the UK economy. The flood of positive data indicate a summer boom on the continent according to Andrew Kenningham, chief economist at Capital Economics. May and June will reveal very good months for Eurozone GDP. By contrast, the UK has already enjoyed its reopening surge," he said. I thought the EU was literally going up in flames before our eyes... The EU is 2 months behind the UK with record business optimism, post pandemic. Yes Germany is doing better than UK, but let us see how the rest of the EU actually performs. Time will tell which countries get back to 2019 GDP first. The Commission are busy approving national plans and releasing borrowed money as part of the EU pandemic Recovery Project. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/22/eu-coronavirus-rescue-fund-will-build-united-states-europe-says/The recovery project effectively locks in countries to the EU as part of the conditions is any borrowing from the EU fund must be paid back before leaving the EU. Italy and Greece are taking on massive extra debt on top of existing massive debt. Even Keynsians are worried about the amount of borrowing the Eurozone is taking on. With the borrowing the UK, EU, USA, and other nations are taking on there is a serious risk of world inflation. I believe there is a serious risk, post pandemic, that the Eastern world will take domination of the world economy. I imagine the 700bn euro post Covid recovery plan will help the EU countries recover together.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 25, 2021 14:26:55 GMT
The EU is 2 months behind the UK with record business optimism, post pandemic. Yes Germany is doing better than UK, but let us see how the rest of the EU actually performs. Time will tell which countries get back to 2019 GDP first. The Commission are busy approving national plans and releasing borrowed money as part of the EU pandemic Recovery Project. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/22/eu-coronavirus-rescue-fund-will-build-united-states-europe-says/The recovery project effectively locks in countries to the EU as part of the conditions is any borrowing from the EU fund must be paid back before leaving the EU. Italy and Greece are taking on massive extra debt on top of existing massive debt. Even Keynsians are worried about the amount of borrowing the Eurozone is taking on. With the borrowing the UK, EU, USA, and other nations are taking on there is a serious risk of world inflation. I believe there is a serious risk, post pandemic, that the Eastern world will take domination of the world economy. I imagine the 700bn euro post Covid recovery plan will help the EU countries recover together. Of course that is what it is meant to do, but: www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2021C23/A word of warning: von der Leyen has left a trail of disasters behind her during her career, the last one being vaccine procurement. The EU pandemic Recovery Fund could be the next. If you were running the EU would you trust the fiscal responsibility of countries like Italy, Greece, Spain, and Portugal, particularly when a large part of their economies depend on tourism, unlike Germany's huge manufacturing machine?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 15:52:27 GMT
I imagine the 700bn euro post Covid recovery plan will help the EU countries recover together. Of course that is what it is meant to do, but: www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2021C23/A word of warning: von der Leyen has left a trail of disasters behind her during her career, the last one being vaccine procurement. The EU pandemic Recovery Fund could be the next. If you were running the EU would you trust the fiscal responsibility of countries like Italy, Greece, Spain, and Portugal, particularly when a large part of their economies depend on tourism, unlike Germany's huge manufacturing machine? I don't know, the Europeans are rapidly catching us up on vaccination which is presumably why you don't hear so much about it these days, but on the subject of trails of disasters, I'd also not trust Dido Harding to run a bath given her previous, yet having overseen the mess that was Test & Trace she's now in line for running the NHS, shudder I don't think the EU is going to literally go up in flames any time soon and that 700bn will help. Perhaps we can use some of the £350 mill a week to do likewise in this country
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Post by foster on Jun 25, 2021 19:27:08 GMT
Of course that is what it is meant to do, but: www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2021C23/A word of warning: von der Leyen has left a trail of disasters behind her during her career, the last one being vaccine procurement. The EU pandemic Recovery Fund could be the next. If you were running the EU would you trust the fiscal responsibility of countries like Italy, Greece, Spain, and Portugal, particularly when a large part of their economies depend on tourism, unlike Germany's huge manufacturing machine? I don't know, the Europeans are rapidly catching us up on vaccination which is presumably why you don't hear so much about it these days, but on the subject of trails of disasters, I'd also not trust Dido Harding to run a bath given her previous, yet having overseen the mess that was Test & Trace she's now in line for running the NHS, shudder I don't think the EU is going to literally go up in flames any time soon and that 700bn will help. Perhaps we can use some of the £350 mill a week to do likewise in this country Getting my 2nd jab next week at 40 years of age. I know of others younger than me that have already had theirs. Not sure what the UK situation is tbh.
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Post by foster on Jun 25, 2021 19:33:20 GMT
Meanwhile...Germany overtakes UK on the road to recovery according to the DT. "Across the eurozone activity is bubbling up at the fastest pace in 15 years, according to financial data firm IHS Markit's latest activity gauges. French business confidence has soared further still, as both economies shake off the crisis months ahead of the UK economy. The flood of positive data indicate a summer boom on the continent according to Andrew Kenningham, chief economist at Capital Economics. May and June will reveal very good months for Eurozone GDP. By contrast, the UK has already enjoyed its reopening surge," he said. I thought the EU was literally going up in flames before our eyes... How about Spain Greece Italy how are they doing Always makes me laugh when people compare us to the weaker EU countries. Like we were ever in their league and is even relevant. Compare us to the leading countries like Germany and France, which is where we were and are competing.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 25, 2021 20:08:26 GMT
How about Spain Greece Italy how are they doing Always makes me laugh when people compare us to the weaker EU countries. Like we were ever in their league and is even relevant. Compare us to the leading countries like Germany and France, which is where we were and are competing. That is dead right fos, But if I was a German or French, I would be very concerned about von der Leyen trotting round Europe handing out huge amounts of money to countries that already have massive debt. It seems a huge gamble to me that these huge investments are going to payback. Italy are getting the largest amount: www.euronews.com/2021/06/22/brussels-greenlights-italy-s-191-5-billion-covid-19-recovery-planThe theatre where the presentation was made this week is getting 300 million Euro regeneration???????!!!!! Italy had an excellent economy until the Euro was created, but since then has not seen any real increase in wealth per head. It would have faired a lot better had it retained the lira. Should we (UK) be worried? Yes, we have left the EU but we still do a huge amount of trade with the EU, we will not gain by the Eurozone getting in a mess. Germany has pulled the Eurozone through the Euro crisis and I expect will lead Europe out of the pandemic recession, but even Germany is not a bottomless pit.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 25, 2021 20:13:39 GMT
Everything that makes for a stronger Europe collectively is a good thing for the continent as a whole, as the stability of the last 60-70 years has proven.
Richer countries redistributing their wealth is just levelling up by a different name. That's the entire point of the EU budget.
It's also the Christian thing to do.
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Post by 4372 on Jun 25, 2021 21:12:08 GMT
Seems a good time to point out that Pope Francis has just put Robert Schumann on the path to sainthood. The architect of peace, progress and prosperity in Europe after WW2.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jun 25, 2021 21:23:31 GMT
Always makes me laugh when people compare us to the weaker EU countries. Like we were ever in their league and is even relevant. Compare us to the leading countries like Germany and France, which is where we were and are competing. That is dead right fos, But if I was a German or French, I would be very concerned about von der Leyen trotting round Europe handing out huge amounts of money to countries that already have massive debt. It seems a huge gamble to me that these huge investments are going to payback. Italy are getting the largest amount: www.euronews.com/2021/06/22/brussels-greenlights-italy-s-191-5-billion-covid-19-recovery-planThe theatre where the presentation was made this week is getting 300 million Euro regeneration???????!!!!! Italy had an excellent economy until the Euro was created, but since then has not seen any real increase in wealth per head. It would have faired a lot better had it retained the lira. Should we (UK) be worried? Yes, we have left the EU but we still do a huge amount of trade with the EU, we will not gain by the Eurozone getting in a mess. Germany has pulled the Eurozone through the Euro crisis and I expect will lead Europe out of the pandemic recession, but even Germany is not a bottomless pit. Italy's GDP per capita shot up in the eight years after the Euro was introduced, before all-but stalling after the 2010 crash. data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=ITThe trajectory of their GDP per capita is actually similar to the UK's (although the UK GDP per capita is consistently higher): data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?end=2019&locations=GB&start=1960&view=chart
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 25, 2021 22:34:34 GMT
That is dead right fos, But if I was a German or French, I would be very concerned about von der Leyen trotting round Europe handing out huge amounts of money to countries that already have massive debt. It seems a huge gamble to me that these huge investments are going to payback. Italy are getting the largest amount: www.euronews.com/2021/06/22/brussels-greenlights-italy-s-191-5-billion-covid-19-recovery-planThe theatre where the presentation was made this week is getting 300 million Euro regeneration???????!!!!! Italy had an excellent economy until the Euro was created, but since then has not seen any real increase in wealth per head. It would have faired a lot better had it retained the lira. Should we (UK) be worried? Yes, we have left the EU but we still do a huge amount of trade with the EU, we will not gain by the Eurozone getting in a mess. Germany has pulled the Eurozone through the Euro crisis and I expect will lead Europe out of the pandemic recession, but even Germany is not a bottomless pit. Italy's GDP per capita shot up in the eight years after the Euro was introduced, before all-but stalling after the 2010 crash. data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=ITThe trajectory of their GDP per capita is actually similar to the UK's (although the UK GDP per capita is consistently higher): data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?end=2019&locations=GB&start=1960&view=chartYou are correct, I should have said wealth (or GDP) not "wealth per head". By leaving the EU, I am optimistic that the UK can get in "the fast lane" of economic growth along with Eastern countries, USA, and Canada, instead of the "slow lane" with the EU economies. fullfact.org/economy/uk-economic-growth-within-g7/This will of course not happen overnight, or even a few years, but will take time to reposition our economy and be less dependant on the slow growing EU market. For now, we are free of EU regulation (except Northern Ireland), ECOJ judgements, fishing will take 5 years to turn round, and new and improved trade agreements will be made and taken advantage of.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 25, 2021 23:29:36 GMT
Everything that makes for a stronger Europe collectively is a good thing for the continent as a whole, as the stability of the last 60-70 years has proven. Richer countries redistributing their wealth is just levelling up by a different name. That's the entire point of the EU budget. It's also the Christian thing to do. Once again you seem deluded about the EU. The EU budget does not aim to redistribute wealth. If you really believe that find me a reference that states the degree of wealth redistribution. The only way in which any wealth is redistributed is the Regional Development Fund which is a small fraction of the EU budget. The biggest fraction of the EU budget is the CAP which goes to the richest land owners. By the way, wasn't it you that said the UK financial contribution to the EU was only a tiny fraction of the nation's budget? So there can hardly be any significant redistribution of wealth. Taking on a huge collective debt does make the EU nations more collective, but not stronger. The Recovery Fund will lead to wider economic integration of the EU, and is a step towards fiscal unity, with Brussels ultimately calling the shots on individual nations budgets, and taxes like Corporation Tax. To get funding nations have had to submit their plans for approval, which they ought to be help to account, but how the EU is going to do that remains to be seen as auditing is almost none existent. How are the Commission going to manage the corruption rife in the eastern member states, where CAP money disappears? There is going to be a splurge of money for a few years till 2026(?), then decades of paying back till 2058, but we all know that date will go back and back! New taxes are being dreamed up to pay off the debt such as pollution tax, plastic tax, digital tax, financial transactions tax, etc. It will take years for all the countries to agree the taxes, and be damaging to the EU economy. The UK will have similar problems but at least a UK government will be in control and can make instant changes to the tax systems. I don't want to see the EU get into an economic mess, as the UK will only suffer the backdraft. It suits the UK for them to thrive, as I have repeatedly said I am happy for the UK to be member of a European free trade zone, but I strongly object to be subject to laws made by those we have not voted into power, or cannot remove. By the way Christians believe in giving money etc. without return. The ERF is not a charity, the EU will be issuing EU bonds and EU bills in September to raise funds, and as I said above new taxes and extra EU financial contributions will be required to be paid be all nations to the EU for the next generation and longer.
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Post by foster on Jun 26, 2021 0:00:18 GMT
There's no 'i' in 'team'. The EU gives to the poor from the richer nations.
If one day the UK was struggling or weak it would receive more aid and pay less.
In a nutshell that's how it works.
Any problems in the UK are not down to the EU, but down to the incumbent governments not distributing funds accordingly.
All they've done is banked the cash and made the EU the scapegoat. It's worked.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 26, 2021 7:12:00 GMT
Everything that makes for a stronger Europe collectively is a good thing for the continent as a whole, as the stability of the last 60-70 years has proven. Richer countries redistributing their wealth is just levelling up by a different name. That's the entire point of the EU budget. It's also the Christian thing to do. Once again you seem deluded about the EU. The EU budget does not aim to redistribute wealth. If you really believe that find me a reference that states the degree of wealth redistribution. The only way in which any wealth is redistributed is the Regional Development Fund which is a small fraction of the EU budget. The biggest fraction of the EU budget is the CAP which goes to the richest land owners. By the way, wasn't it you that said the UK financial contribution to the EU was only a tiny fraction of the nation's budget? So there can hardly be any significant redistribution of wealth. Taking on a huge collective debt does make the EU nations more collective, but not stronger. The Recovery Fund will lead to wider economic integration of the EU, and is a step towards fiscal unity, with Brussels ultimately calling the shots on individual nations budgets, and taxes like Corporation Tax. To get funding nations have had to submit their plans for approval, which they ought to be help to account, but how the EU is going to do that remains to be seen as auditing is almost none existent. How are the Commission going to manage the corruption rife in the eastern member states, where CAP money disappears? There is going to be a splurge of money for a few years till 2026(?), then decades of paying back till 2058, but we all know that date will go back and back! New taxes are being dreamed up to pay off the debt such as pollution tax, plastic tax, digital tax, financial transactions tax, etc. It will take years for all the countries to agree the taxes, and be damaging to the EU economy. The UK will have similar problems but at least a UK government will be in control and can make instant changes to the tax systems. I don't want to see the EU get into an economic mess, as the UK will only suffer the backdraft. It suits the UK for them to thrive, as I have repeatedly said I am happy for the UK to be member of a European free trade zone, but I strongly object to be subject to laws made by those we have not voted into power, or cannot remove. By the way Christians believe in giving money etc. without return. The ERF is not a charity, the EU will be issuing EU bonds and EU bills in September to raise funds, and as I said above new taxes and extra EU financial contributions will be required to be paid be all nations to the EU for the next generation and longer. That's interesting. I think even the most cursory of glances at where the next six year trillion euro budget is going will reveal that it is awarded proportionately more to those countries which are poorer than the others. I mean, it's a bit disingenuous to try to argue otherwise when one of the regular comments for leaving the EU and not giving any more money to it is "charity begins at home". Screw those foreigners, eh! I also struggle with the notion of a Christian who has previously declared themselves "delighted" at leaving the EU on the grounds that we will no longer be giving money to European countries who will just "fritter it away". And yet here we are apparently being told that Christians happily give money away without expecting any return...strange. By way of contrast, I'm quite happy for the EU to expect to see developments in these countries in return for the funds, and there are numerous checks and balances on where the money gets spent (not fighter planes as you've insinuated previously!).
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 26, 2021 8:38:10 GMT
Once again you seem deluded about the EU. The EU budget does not aim to redistribute wealth. If you really believe that find me a reference that states the degree of wealth redistribution. The only way in which any wealth is redistributed is the Regional Development Fund which is a small fraction of the EU budget. The biggest fraction of the EU budget is the CAP which goes to the richest land owners. By the way, wasn't it you that said the UK financial contribution to the EU was only a tiny fraction of the nation's budget? So there can hardly be any significant redistribution of wealth. Taking on a huge collective debt does make the EU nations more collective, but not stronger. The Recovery Fund will lead to wider economic integration of the EU, and is a step towards fiscal unity, with Brussels ultimately calling the shots on individual nations budgets, and taxes like Corporation Tax. To get funding nations have had to submit their plans for approval, which they ought to be help to account, but how the EU is going to do that remains to be seen as auditing is almost none existent. How are the Commission going to manage the corruption rife in the eastern member states, where CAP money disappears? There is going to be a splurge of money for a few years till 2026(?), then decades of paying back till 2058, but we all know that date will go back and back! New taxes are being dreamed up to pay off the debt such as pollution tax, plastic tax, digital tax, financial transactions tax, etc. It will take years for all the countries to agree the taxes, and be damaging to the EU economy. The UK will have similar problems but at least a UK government will be in control and can make instant changes to the tax systems. I don't want to see the EU get into an economic mess, as the UK will only suffer the backdraft. It suits the UK for them to thrive, as I have repeatedly said I am happy for the UK to be member of a European free trade zone, but I strongly object to be subject to laws made by those we have not voted into power, or cannot remove. By the way Christians believe in giving money etc. without return. The ERF is not a charity, the EU will be issuing EU bonds and EU bills in September to raise funds, and as I said above new taxes and extra EU financial contributions will be required to be paid be all nations to the EU for the next generation and longer. That's interesting. I think even the most cursory of glances at where the next six year trillion euro budget is going will reveal that it is awarded proportionately more to those countries which are poorer than the others. I mean, it's a bit disingenuous to try to argue otherwise when one of the regular comments for leaving the EU and not giving any more money to it is "charity begins at home". Screw those foreigners, eh! I also struggle with the notion of a Christian who has previously declared themselves "delighted" at leaving the EU on the grounds that we will no longer be giving money to European countries who will just "fritter it away". And yet here we are apparently being told that Christians happily give money away without expecting any return...strange. By way of contrast, I'm quite happy for the EU to expect to see developments in these countries in return for the funds, and there are numerous checks and balances on where the money gets spent (not fighter planes as you've insinuated previously!). I repeat the EU "gives" or redistributes relatively very little wealth. Under the EU Recovery Fund, for most of the finance, huge amounts of money are to be borrowed on the international markets. China will I expect provide a large amount. The money is then lent to countries according to need, the countries most affected by the pandemic receiving the most, with the expectation that it will be paid back at some time in the future, with interest, which happens to be very low presently. A huge risk is that interest rates will rise and the poorer countries that have huge amounts of existing debt will have to find additional funds to finance their pre pandemic debt. What developments are you expecting in Italy, Greece, etc. to pay for the return of those funds? I strongly believe in charity and happy to see the UK the fourth highest country in the world that donates aid, which hopefully goes to those that need it most. borgenproject.org/five-countries-that-give-the-largest-foreign-aid/#:~:text=5%20Countries%20That%20Provide%20the%20Largest%20Foreign%20Aid,4%20The%20United%20Kingdom.%20...%205%20Japan.%20 I continue to maintain that it is discordant, that a country like Croatia has been a net recipient of funds from the EU since joining, and spends money, granted not the EU funds, on buying fighter planes from France. www.bing.com/search?q=buyin+fighter+planes+from+France&cvid=53da387f208444ea934a75260b4d2faf&aqs=edge..69i57.15295j0j4&FORM=ANAB01&PC=U531
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Post by Kilo on Jun 26, 2021 8:42:00 GMT
Oooh, isn't the EU great. They're giving countries £750 billion of their own money back. Although they do have to pay some of it back to the EU with interest.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 26, 2021 10:07:12 GMT
Oooh, isn't the EU great. They're giving countries £750 billion of their own money back. Although they do have to pay some of it back to the EU with interest. Not quite right. The money will be raised on the international money markets as borrowing. The £750b (or £800b?) is just part of the EU borrowing which will be over 2 trillion Euros. All the borrowing will be in Euros. Part of the pandemic Recovery Fund will be grants and part loans, repayable with interest. The rest of the EU borrowing is to regenerate the EU by investing in new technology, green technology/climate change, and a whole host of other initiatives. It will all have to be paid back by raising money by the usual means such as customs on imports, a proportion of each countries VAT, the national contributions to the EU based on GDP, plus a whole range of new taxes currency being worked up - see my post above. Fortunately the UK has a free trade agreement with the EU, whereas many of the other countries the EU has trade agreements with include tariffs. For example the EU trade agreement with Japan has tariffs, which were rolled over into the new trade agreement between Japan and the UK, but modified to remove tariffs sooner. Far Eastern countries for example have to pay a 15% tariff on shoes exported to the EU, to protect the Italian shoe industry. The whole exercise is to lock in all member states into the EU and effectively prevent any country leaving without paying off all it will be due to pay for the next generation, I.e. over 30 years. The UK has a large divorce bill to pay to leave the EU to pay for commitments made as a member and such things as EU employees pensions. In the future any country wanting to leave would face a crippling divorce bill. If world interest rates rise significantly in the future the consequences could be dire for those countries that already have huge debts. Many member countries would have a version of negative equity. Regrettably that does not bother some unscrupulous politicians. The impact of another pandemic are too awful to imagine.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 28, 2021 8:03:04 GMT
Oooh, isn't the EU great. They're giving countries £750 billion of their own money back. Although they do have to pay some of it back to the EU with interest. Sounds a bit like redistribution of wealth doesn't it? Does anyone think that's a bad idea? For rich countries (who can afford it) to give a helping had to poorer countries (who need it). And at the same time improve trade links and vastly reduce historic inter-national friction? How's our friction with local neighbours doing these days!? We have a similar system already in place in this country called taxation (although I accept that the richer you are, the less likely that model apples to you!). Perhaps the EU should've come up with snappier names instead of ERDF and the like to make it more palatable for some folk. Levelling up, maybe? Strikes me as quite a Christian thing to do, encourage the rich to help out the less well off?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 28, 2021 8:27:46 GMT
That's interesting. I think even the most cursory of glances at where the next six year trillion euro budget is going will reveal that it is awarded proportionately more to those countries which are poorer than the others. I mean, it's a bit disingenuous to try to argue otherwise when one of the regular comments for leaving the EU and not giving any more money to it is "charity begins at home". Screw those foreigners, eh! I also struggle with the notion of a Christian who has previously declared themselves "delighted" at leaving the EU on the grounds that we will no longer be giving money to European countries who will just "fritter it away". And yet here we are apparently being told that Christians happily give money away without expecting any return...strange. By way of contrast, I'm quite happy for the EU to expect to see developments in these countries in return for the funds, and there are numerous checks and balances on where the money gets spent (not fighter planes as you've insinuated previously!). I repeat the EU "gives" or redistributes relatively very little wealth. Under the EU Recovery Fund, for most of the finance, huge amounts of money are to be borrowed on the international markets. China will I expect provide a large amount. The money is then lent to countries according to need, the countries most affected by the pandemic receiving the most, with the expectation that it will be paid back at some time in the future, with interest, which happens to be very low presently. A huge risk is that interest rates will rise and the poorer countries that have huge amounts of existing debt will have to find additional funds to finance their pre pandemic debt. What developments are you expecting in Italy, Greece, etc. to pay for the return of those funds? I strongly believe in charity and happy to see the UK the fourth highest country in the world that donates aid, which hopefully goes to those that need it most. borgenproject.org/five-countries-that-give-the-largest-foreign-aid/#:~:text=5%20Countries%20That%20Provide%20the%20Largest%20Foreign%20Aid,4%20The%20United%20Kingdom.%20...%205%20Japan.%20 I continue to maintain that it is discordant, that a country like Croatia has been a net recipient of funds from the EU since joining, and spends money, granted not the EU funds, on buying fighter planes from France. www.bing.com/search?q=buyin+fighter+planes+from+France&cvid=53da387f208444ea934a75260b4d2faf&aqs=edge..69i57.15295j0j4&FORM=ANAB01&PC=U531Clearly, the EU does redistribute funds from richer countries to poorer ones. A cursory glance at the proportions given to various countries will tell you that. Also, if it didn't, why was it such a huge problem for most Brexiteers over the amount we contributed, usually accompanied by the charitable comment that they will just "fritter it away", as you said? Why do you ask for returns from Greece, Italy, etc? As a Christian you've already said you're happy to see money given away without expecting any return. It's just a charitable thing to do if you are a Christian, no? To help out those less well off. Or is Christian giving more conditional than that? If you're bothered about countries like Croatia having military spending while receiving EU cash, you may as well apply that thinking to every EU member! It's equally if not more discordant for countries to receive EU funding while having ever increasing numbers of homeless people or folk having to rely on foodbanks, like we did while a member. That should all get sorted out now, of course, because we're no longer giving £350mill a week to those nations which clearly don't deserve it because they have a military!
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