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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 14, 2015 3:34:12 GMT
But that is kind of my point. The ticketless fans were there and added to the crush outside and then ran in through the open gate. If they were not there would the problems inside and out been so severe? It doesn't matter if there were Liverpool, Stoke or any other fans they have to accept that the ticketless fans would have played their part in what happened. Then again you have the pissed up fans. Again every club has/had them. Over zealous boystrus lads fans havin a good time but who would also unwittingly added to the chaos of the day. Nobody is saying they are to blame for the tragedy but they must have played a part in the many events that led to it. The least to blame are the 96 souls who lost there lives due to events behind them. Were the police to blame for the cover up and events after? 100% yes. Were they to blame for the tragedy itself? They played their part as did many others. That is the best bit written about a post that is getting out of hand. People are on here want to crucify the police, thatcher and anyone else but liverpool fans. There were too many liverpool fans who didn't have tickets to get into the ground. Ok, the police made an error, but the liverpool fans who travelled without tickets are just as much to blame. Without them there, it may never have happened, ok we will never know, but you can't blame everything on the police and government, because you hate them both. Seriously chap, the (accurate) information is out there ... your ignorance (coupled with your arrogance) is frankly staggering. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2015 3:51:18 GMT
If some are still, even now, even when so many things have been proven beyond doubt, hell bent on the notion the fans were to blame, it is as baffling as it is misguided. For heavens sake, it was football supporters. It was us. US. The people who spend money to go and watch our teams play football. Why so keen to accept blame? Anyone who attended games in that era knew an Hillsborough type disaster was a possibility. Why blame us?
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 14, 2015 4:56:48 GMT
If some are still, even now, even when so many things have been proven beyond doubt, hell bent on the notion the fans were to blame, it is as baffling as it is misguided. For heavens sake, it was football supporters. It was us. US. The people who spend money to go and watch our teams play football. Why so keen to accept blame? Anyone who attended games in that era knew an Hillsborough type disaster was a possibility. Why blame us? That's a very pertinent way to put it Joe. Any match-going fan who still takes this line is effectively exonerating those responsible and blaming themselves for what happened. |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Mar 14, 2015 6:46:50 GMT
IMO these threads degenerate into hissy fits between fellow Stokies because of the extreme views of some posters. On one hand there are those who will not let go the notion that the fans must take a share of the blame because some were "pissed up" and/or ticketless. On the other hand there are those who absolutely and utterly blame the police 100% for the disaster. Those of us who have read the HIP, H&SE report, Green Guide and followed the current inquest will have a more informed view that the ground was unsafe for many reasons and too many tickets were sold in contravention of safety recommendations. Yes, on the day mistakes by the police and other emergency services tipped the balance between "ignoring fans safety but getting away with it" into the tragedy that unfolded. Also the despicable lies and cover ups after the event have nothing to do with the cause of the tragedy but, of course, must be dealt with appropriately.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Mar 14, 2015 7:15:19 GMT
What I don't understand is why, the minute it was decided to put fences at the front of football terraces, it wasn't realised that probable death traps were being created UNLESS: a) each area or pen had it's capacity determined and b) entrance arrangements were such that admission to each pen could be accurately counted IN REAL time - i.e. BEFORE a game was allowed to kick off. Basically each pen needed its own turnstiles. Pens, in my opinion were a daft idea, but they might not have proved to be such a dangerous idea if they had been properly controlled. I was around at the time but I can't remember if the HSE was the body responsible for safety at football grounds at that time. Whoever's job it was - they didn't make a very good job of it. It would be ironic if HSE were responsible, because the HSE have their headquarters in Liverpool.  |
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Post by partickpotter on Mar 14, 2015 7:46:12 GMT
If some are still, even now, even when so many things have been proven beyond doubt, hell bent on the notion the fans were to blame, it is as baffling as it is misguided. For heavens sake, it was football supporters. It was us. US. The people who spend money to go and watch our teams play football. Why so keen to accept blame? Anyone who attended games in that era knew an Hillsborough type disaster was a possibility. Why blame us? At the risk of severe over simplification, it's a bit like blaming the car for a car crash. |
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Post by Davef on Mar 14, 2015 8:15:16 GMT
I'm glad in that report they could count them to the exact number. It was an estimate from a Health and Safety Executive report, not a Liverpool fan doing what you are doing and making stuff up. A few people have obviously had to spend hours going over CCTV coverage to come up with those figures. Id be interested to know the number of ticketless fans you've plucked from thin air? Did you not read the article fully? |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Mar 14, 2015 8:33:28 GMT
What I don't understand is why, the minute it was decided to put fences at the front of football terraces, it wasn't realised that probable death traps were being created UNLESS: a) each area or pen had it's capacity determined and b) entrance arrangements were such that admission to each pen could be accurately counted IN REAL time - i.e. BEFORE a game was allowed to kick off. Basically each pen needed its own turnstiles. Pens, in my opinion were a daft idea, but they might not have proved to be such a dangerous idea if they had been properly controlled. I was around at the time but I can't remember if the HSE was the body responsible for safety at football grounds at that time. Whoever's job it was - they didn't make a very good job of it. It would be ironic if HSE were responsible, because the HSE have their headquarters in Liverpool. I was at a game at Vale Park with my vale fan mate in Jan 1964 for an FA Cup 4th round replay vs Liverpool. We were both 11 years old and, had it not been for the absence of caged terracing, I am convinced that I would not be alive now. We arrived quite early at the Hamil End because a large crowd was expected and stood behind the goal about a third the way up the terracing. I remember the terraces around us was practically full by about 7pm. In those days cup replays occurred during the next week with no time to sell tickets so these games were mainly pay on the gate. Approaching 7.30 kick off "several hundred" Liverpool fans broke through the padlocked exit gate and swarmed onto an already packed Hamil terracing pushing fans forward towards the front a la Hillsborough. Only there was no caging which enabled us to escape the crush by being lifted by police onto the pitch. I remember the excitement of having to sit on the touch line to watch the whole match with great players such as Ian St John, Billy Bingham, Roy Sproson and Tommy Lawrence all within touching distance. Nobody was injured purely because there was no barrier to escaping the crush. Although a scouser was killed falling through the asbestos roof of the stand after he had climbed to watch the game. To this day I am amazed that this incident, no doubt alongside other similar incidents, did not serve as a warning to football authorities not to use caged terracing as a means of crowd control. |
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Post by RAF on Mar 14, 2015 10:21:28 GMT
That is the best bit written about a post that is getting out of hand. People are on here want to crucify the police, thatcher and anyone else but liverpool fans. There were too many liverpool fans who didn't have tickets to get into the ground. Ok, the police made an error, but the liverpool fans who travelled without tickets are just as much to blame. Without them there, it may never have happened, ok we will never know, but you can't blame everything on the police and government, because you hate them both. Seriously chap, the (accurate) information is out there ... your ignorance (coupled with your arrogance) is frankly staggering. Absolutely hilarious coming from you on this subject. You've changed your factual information sources more times than I can remember, dishing out your own very special brand of FACT looking down your nose at anyone who has the temerity to disagree. Firstly it was the interim Taylor report that was beyond reproach, then the actual Taylor report , then the 'not so independent' enquiry. Every single one of these reports have significant holes in them. I'm not going to go over old ground with you again, it's pointless you made your mind up years ago as did I. I'll just say this. If just one person got into that ground without a ticket (and we know they did) they were breathing the air and standing in the space of one of those who actually had a ticket who were being crushed and were suffocating against the railings. H |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 14, 2015 10:32:03 GMT
Seriously chap, the (accurate) information is out there ... your ignorance (coupled with your arrogance) is frankly staggering. Absolutely hilarious coming from you on this subject. You've changed your factual information sources more times than I can remember, dishing out your own very special brand of FACT looking down your nose at anyone who has the temerity to disagree. Firstly it was the interim Taylor report that was beyond reproach, then the actual Taylor report , then the 'not so independent' enquiry. Every single one of these reports have significant holes in them. I'm not going to go over old ground with you again, it's pointless you made your mind up years ago as did I. I'll just say this. If just one person got into that ground without a ticket (and we know they did) they were breathing the air and standing in the space of one of those who actually had a ticket who were being crushed and were suffocating against the railings. H You're not going to go over old ground? Blimey .... |
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2015 10:44:20 GMT
People turning up for a game without a ticket shouldn't present too much of a problem. It happens at all big games. More so back then because of the lack of live TV coverage.
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Post by RAF on Mar 14, 2015 10:45:37 GMT
Absolutely hilarious coming from you on this subject. You've changed your factual information sources more times than I can remember, dishing out your own very special brand of FACT looking down your nose at anyone who has the temerity to disagree. Firstly it was the interim Taylor report that was beyond reproach, then the actual Taylor report , then the 'not so independent' enquiry. Every single one of these reports have significant holes in them. I'm not going to go over old ground with you again, it's pointless you made your mind up years ago as did I. I'll just say this. If just one person got into that ground without a ticket (and we know they did) they were breathing the air and standing in the space of one of those who actually had a ticket who were being crushed and were suffocating against the railings. H You're not going to go over old ground? Blimey .... Well I suppose your response is a new one to your old 'The information is out there if you can be bothered to look'addage, so I'm at least thankful for that and not to be labelled arrogant because I don't agree with you. In fact I feel refreshed. I'm off for a run. H |
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Post by RAF on Mar 14, 2015 10:46:27 GMT
People turning up for a game without a ticket shouldn't present too much of a problem. It happens at all big games. More so back then because of the lack of live TV coverage. That and had the fans not been penned in like pigs behind metal railings. H |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 14, 2015 10:48:31 GMT
You're not going to go over old ground? Blimey .... Well I suppose your response is a new one to your old 'The information is out there if you can be bothered to look'addage, so I'm at least thankful for that and not to be labelled arrogant because I don't agree with you. In fact I feel refreshed. I'm off for a run. H Be careful not to trip yourself up .... (Winky thing) |
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2015 10:48:48 GMT
People turning up for a game without a ticket shouldn't present too much of a problem. It happens at all big games. More so back then because of the lack of live TV coverage. That and the fact that fans were penned in like pigs. H Penned in like sick pigs and treated like shit. And this was deemed to be the safest way. It was just a matter of time. |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Mar 14, 2015 12:41:24 GMT
That and the fact that fans were penned in like pigs. H Penned in like sick pigs and treated like shit. And this was deemed to be the safest way. It was just a matter of time. Good to see there are e few who can see further than the errors made by the police being the "be all and end all" of the cause of the tragedy. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2015 12:45:52 GMT
Penned in like sick pigs and treated like shit. And this was deemed to be the safest way. It was just a matter of time. Good to see there are e few who can see further than the errors made by the police being the "be all and end all" of the cause of the tragedy. The main factor was police mismanagement. There were other factors though like deathtrap stadiums and authorities who had blunt disregard for supporter safety. |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Mar 14, 2015 13:55:25 GMT
Good to see there are e few who can see further than the errors made by the police being the "be all and end all" of the cause of the tragedy. The main factor was police mismanagement. There were other factors though like deathtrap stadiums and authorities who had blunt disregard for supporter safety. That's a matter of opinion Joe. Had all the safety recommendations been implemented by SWFC or crowd capacity reductions been made without improving ground safety plus the use of the outrageous penned terracing then the errors made by the police would not have resulted in tragedy. The police lifted the plug on a volcano waiting to erupt and thus have to share the blame. But they were not the main factor that caused this tragedy IMO. The aftermath lies and cover ups are a different kettle of fish though but, unfortunately, some people let this cloud their judgement of the cause of the tragedy. |
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Mar 14, 2015 14:05:44 GMT
That and the fact that fans were penned in like pigs. H Penned in like sick pigs and treated like shit. And this was deemed to be the safest way. It was just a matter of time. Didn't the lovely Chelsea owner at the time say he'd like electric fences? Even after Hillsborough they did not want to get rid of fencing and suggested designing a type of fencing that would open automatically if a certain force was put on it or gated fencing! Thinking back they really did treat us like animals. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2015 14:07:03 GMT
Bates suggested electric fences in about 1984.
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Post by onionman on Mar 14, 2015 14:15:05 GMT
What I don't understand is why, the minute it was decided to put fences at the front of football terraces, it wasn't realised that probable death traps were being created UNLESS: a) each area or pen had it's capacity determined and b) entrance arrangements were such that admission to each pen could be accurately counted IN REAL time - i.e. BEFORE a game was allowed to kick off. Basically each pen needed its own turnstiles. Pens, in my opinion were a daft idea, but they might not have proved to be such a dangerous idea if they had been properly controlled. I was around at the time but I can't remember if the HSE was the body responsible for safety at football grounds at that time. Whoever's job it was - they didn't make a very good job of it. It would be ironic if HSE were responsible, because the HSE have their headquarters in Liverpool. Did it strike you as dangerous at the time? I was pretty young but just accepted fencing as a normal part of football, I'm wondering to what extent fans of that era were aware of the danger they were in? |
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Post by andystokey on Mar 14, 2015 14:15:53 GMT
Margaret Thatcher. Enough said.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2015 14:20:57 GMT
What I don't understand is why, the minute it was decided to put fences at the front of football terraces, it wasn't realised that probable death traps were being created UNLESS: a) each area or pen had it's capacity determined and b) entrance arrangements were such that admission to each pen could be accurately counted IN REAL time - i.e. BEFORE a game was allowed to kick off. Basically each pen needed its own turnstiles. Pens, in my opinion were a daft idea, but they might not have proved to be such a dangerous idea if they had been properly controlled. I was around at the time but I can't remember if the HSE was the body responsible for safety at football grounds at that time. Whoever's job it was - they didn't make a very good job of it. It would be ironic if HSE were responsible, because the HSE have their headquarters in Liverpool. Did it strike you as dangerous at the time? I was pretty young but just accepted fencing as a normal part of football, I'm wondering to what extent fans of that era were aware of the danger they were in? I was. I remember being crushed against fences in the Boothen Paddock when I was a nipper. There was a feeling it'd just be all right and nothing terrible could happen. All along we were riding our luck. |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Mar 14, 2015 14:23:27 GMT
What I don't understand is why, the minute it was decided to put fences at the front of football terraces, it wasn't realised that probable death traps were being created UNLESS: a) each area or pen had it's capacity determined and b) entrance arrangements were such that admission to each pen could be accurately counted IN REAL time - i.e. BEFORE a game was allowed to kick off. Basically each pen needed its own turnstiles. Pens, in my opinion were a daft idea, but they might not have proved to be such a dangerous idea if they had been properly controlled. I was around at the time but I can't remember if the HSE was the body responsible for safety at football grounds at that time. Whoever's job it was - they didn't make a very good job of it. It would be ironic if HSE were responsible, because the HSE have their headquarters in Liverpool. Did it strike you as dangerous at the time? I was pretty young but just accepted fencing as a normal part of football, I'm wondering to what extent fans of that era were aware of the danger they were in? No, I like you, just accepted it. I wasn't at the famous game at Barnsley but I do recall a lot of Stokies after that game saying how dangerous they felt it had been but people soon managed to supress their concerns. |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Mar 14, 2015 14:27:29 GMT
Did it strike you as dangerous at the time? I was pretty young but just accepted fencing as a normal part of football, I'm wondering to what extent fans of that era were aware of the danger they were in? No, I like you, just accepted it. I wasn't at the famous game at Barnsley but I do recall a lot of Stokies after that game saying how dangerous they felt it had been but people soon managed to supress their concerns. I remember nearly having my guts crushed out of me on one of those crash barriers in the Boothen following a surge when I was about 14. Nothing to do with the pens. Watching footie was quite dangerous in them days but no-one really thought about it. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2015 14:27:32 GMT
Thing is the darkest days of hooliganism had ended by the time Hillsborough happened. A different terrace culture was emerging. We'd just come out of the winter of inflatable fun. 4 days before Hillsborough UEFA announced English clubs would be allowed back into Europe.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Mar 14, 2015 15:04:22 GMT
What I don't understand is why, the minute it was decided to put fences at the front of football terraces, it wasn't realised that probable death traps were being created UNLESS: a) each area or pen had it's capacity determined and b) entrance arrangements were such that admission to each pen could be accurately counted IN REAL time - i.e. BEFORE a game was allowed to kick off. Basically each pen needed its own turnstiles. Pens, in my opinion were a daft idea, but they might not have proved to be such a dangerous idea if they had been properly controlled. I was around at the time but I can't remember if the HSE was the body responsible for safety at football grounds at that time. Whoever's job it was - they didn't make a very good job of it. It would be ironic if HSE were responsible, because the HSE have their headquarters in Liverpool. Did it strike you as dangerous at the time? I was pretty young but just accepted fencing as a normal part of football, I'm wondering to what extent fans of that era were aware of the danger they were in? Having experience the incident at Vale Park that I described in an earlier post on this thread, both me and my friend were certainly very wary of these penned cages as potential death traps. We still talk about our lucky escape that cold January night in 1964 to this day. |
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 14, 2015 15:55:13 GMT
Bates suggested electric fences in about 1984. If I remember correctly, he didn't just suggest it, he did it, until the then council told him to de electrify it. It may have been a Labour council back then, before that Tesco lady did her gerrymandering job with the local authority housing. Oh the lovely tricks of the Torys over the years... |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 14, 2015 17:47:40 GMT
The main factor was police mismanagement. There were other factors though like deathtrap stadiums and authorities who had blunt disregard for supporter safety. That's a matter of opinion Joe. Had all the safety recommendations been implemented by SWFC or crowd capacity reductions been made without improving ground safety plus the use of the outrageous penned terracing then the errors made by the police would not have resulted in tragedy. The police lifted the plug on a volcano waiting to erupt and thus have to share the blame. But they were not the main factor that caused this tragedy IMO. The aftermath lies and cover ups are a different kettle of fish though but, unfortunately, some people let this cloud their judgement of the cause of the tragedy. In your opinion then LL who was or were the main factor? |
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Post by stiggerstackle on Mar 14, 2015 18:29:06 GMT
No, I like you, just accepted it. I wasn't at the famous game at Barnsley but I do recall a lot of Stokies after that game saying how dangerous they felt it had been but people soon managed to supress their concerns. I remember nearly having my guts crushed out of me on one of those crash barriers in the Boothen following a surge when I was about 14. Nothing to do with the pens. Watching footie was quite dangerous in them days but no-one really thought about it. Absolutely right, happened all the time! I also remember the old Boothen being so full (despite tannoy announcements that the crowd was something ridiculous like 12,586 when anybody with eyes could see it was more like 18,000 - they used very special calculators for crowd size at the Old Vic) that you'd be physically 'picked up' by the shoulders and carried down several flights of concrete steps with no control whatsoever... |
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