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Post by metalhead on Mar 13, 2015 9:44:20 GMT
Duckenfield first admitted and publicly apologised for his lie on 26th May 1989. It was the main item on the news after Arsenal won the league at Anfield. The most significant factor in all this is the police were instructed by senior officers to blame the disaster on “drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans” - and told to gather evidence to that effect. But he never admitted formally. That was a case of, whoops, cheeky lie. |
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Post by draytondave on Mar 13, 2015 9:52:37 GMT
Sick of hearing about this, it has no place on a Stoke City forum. And thats where you are wrong. Only a few months earlier at an FA Cup replay at Barnsley the exact same thing could have happened to Stoke fans. The South Yorkshire Police (Yes, the same force) decided to open a gate which allowed many ticketless Stokies into the ground, which IF it had had pens similar to Hillsborough could have caused a crush and many many Stoke fans would have been injured/killed. South Yorkshire police at that time were incompetent beyond belief and anyone in the higher reaches of that time should be made to pay/suffer for the anguish and suffering they have caused to the families of 96 FOOTBALL fans, and to ensure it can NEVER happen again. But that is kind of my point. The ticketless fans were there and added to the crush outside and then ran in through the open gate. If they were not there would the problems inside and out been so severe? It doesn't matter if there were Liverpool, Stoke or any other fans they have to accept that the ticketless fans would have played their part in what happened. Then again you have the pissed up fans. Again every club has/had them. Over zealous boystrus lads fans havin a good time but who would also unwittingly added to the chaos of the day. Nobody is saying they are to blame for the tragedy but they must have played a part in the many events that led to it. The least to blame are the 96 souls who lost there lives due to events behind them. Were the police to blame for the cover up and events after? 100% yes. Were they to blame for the tragedy itself? They played their part as did many others. |
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Post by Davef on Mar 13, 2015 12:10:16 GMT
And thats where you are wrong. Only a few months earlier at an FA Cup replay at Barnsley the exact same thing could have happened to Stoke fans. The South Yorkshire Police (Yes, the same force) decided to open a gate which allowed many ticketless Stokies into the ground, which IF it had had pens similar to Hillsborough could have caused a crush and many many Stoke fans would have been injured/killed. South Yorkshire police at that time were incompetent beyond belief and anyone in the higher reaches of that time should be made to pay/suffer for the anguish and suffering they have caused to the families of 96 FOOTBALL fans, and to ensure it can NEVER happen again. But that is kind of my point. The ticketless fans were there and added to the crush outside and then ran in through the open gate. If they were not there would the problems inside and out been so severe? It doesn't matter if there were Liverpool, Stoke or any other fans they have to accept that the ticketless fans would have played their part in what happened. Then again you have the pissed up fans. Again every club has/had them. Over zealous boystrus lads fans havin a good time but who would also unwittingly added to the chaos of the day. Nobody is saying they are to blame for the tragedy but they must have played a part in the many events that led to it. The least to blame are the 96 souls who lost there lives due to events behind them. Were the police to blame for the cover up and events after? 100% yes. Were they to blame for the tragedy itself? They played their part as did many others.
He had evidence from pubs, members of the public, South Yorkshire Police and the local supermarkets and off license establishments. Lord Justice Taylor concluded that most were “not drunk, nor even the worse for drink”.
He went on to say that “Some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the drunkenness in the crowd.”
Ticketless? – The Health & Safety Executive (HSE) studied the CCTV footage after the disaster, in order to try and ascertain how many supporters had entered the Leppings Lane end of the ground.
The capacity of the Leppings Lane end in its entirety was 10,100.
The HSE supplied three estimates of the number of fans who had entered that day based on video evidence. The first number was 9,267 fans were inside; the second ‘best estimate’ was that 9,734 were inside and the maximum number given was 10,124. The problem clearly wasn’t that there were too many fans, it was simply that too many fans were in the central two pens.thehillsboroughdisasterdocumentary.com/2012/10/10/so-you-though-liverpool-fans-were-late-drunk-ticketless-at-hillsborough/ |
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Post by greyman on Mar 13, 2015 12:39:04 GMT
Amazing that whenever this topic comes up, the same drivel comes out.
You're wasting your time here Dave (and everybody else). Facts have no power in the face of some people's opinions.
It's heartbreaking what's coming out today about this absolute cunt Duckenfield. While fans are dying, he's calling for police dog units and more coppers rather than ambulances and firemen. He's also obviously still out to save his own filthy skin from what happens next. Just look at his selective memory about events.
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Post by Kjones9 on Mar 13, 2015 12:49:12 GMT
Should it be 96 inquest's instead?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 13, 2015 13:03:43 GMT
Amazing that whenever this topic comes up, the same drivel comes out. You're wasting your time here Dave (and everybody else). Facts have no power in the face of some people's opinions. It's heartbreaking what's coming out today about this absolute cunt Duckenfield. While fans are dying, he's calling for police dog units and more coppers rather than ambulances and firemen. He's also obviously still out to save his own filthy skin from what happens next. Just look at his selective memory about events. Utterly unbelievable backtracking .... "Asked about the lie to which he admitted the previous day, Duckenfield clarified that he had not lied directly about the major opening of the exit gate. He said that when he told Kelly that fans had forced the gate open, he was referring to an earlier, brief opening of the gate. He said he was admitting that was a lie because he had been advised it was a lie of omission." www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/12/hillsborough-inquest-duckenfield-south-yorkshire-police |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 13, 2015 13:19:35 GMT
To the people who still insist it was because of too many fans or that they were drunk - if an admittance guilt from the man who was in charge that day can't change your mind, then you're up there with people who believe there was no planes on 9/11, the Queen is a lizard and Elvis is still walking around Las Vegas.
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Post by skip on Mar 13, 2015 13:44:02 GMT
The events of the day were a total fucking mess that led to an awful tragedy and I am not sure that can be pinned on an individual, certainly not one who by his own recent admission was out of his depth (therefore, in simple terms, didn't know what the fuck to do). So, at best, incompetence (who gave him the job and why wasn't he working with someone more experienced - the mind boggles) and all of that stuff needs unpicking.
As for the defamation and deceit that kicked in from the moment the authorities knew they had a disaster on their hands, that is utterly unforgivable. And people think that the Power Elite in the UK don't demonise the Working Class? Hillsborough has been the worst example of the Dark Arts protecting its own. Utterly tragic.
And yes, I agree with a post or three back, Thatcher knew full well. I think she knew a fuck of a lot about a lot of things. I remain convinced of that.
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Post by Kilo on Mar 13, 2015 13:45:13 GMT
“I don’t think I was involved in any cover-up,” - What a pile of crap. You know full well if you are or are not involved in a cover up unless you are intergalactically stupid. Putting the "I think" in front of any statement, he is trying to muddy the waters and squirm his way out of any responsibility.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 13, 2015 16:15:48 GMT
David Conn ? david_conn 2m2 minutes ago Hillsborough: Duckenfield asked why didn't tell truth for 26 yrs. Says dawned on him now what it means to families. "I am dreadfully sorry." |
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Post by onionman on Mar 13, 2015 16:44:09 GMT
Amazing that whenever this topic comes up, the same drivel comes out. You're wasting your time here Dave (and everybody else). Facts have no power in the face of some people's opinions. It's heartbreaking what's coming out today about this absolute cunt Duckenfield. While fans are dying, he's calling for police dog units and more coppers rather than ambulances and firemen. He's also obviously still out to save his own filthy skin from what happens next. Just look at his selective memory about events. Utterly unbelievable backtracking .... "Asked about the lie to which he admitted the previous day, Duckenfield clarified that he had not lied directly about the major opening of the exit gate. He said that when he told Kelly that fans had forced the gate open, he was referring to an earlier, brief opening of the gate. He said he was admitting that was a lie because he had been advised it was a lie of omission." www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/12/hillsborough-inquest-duckenfield-south-yorkshire-policeWow, he's obviously trying to save his own skin by muddying the waters so that his own previous admissions of guilt might not stick. Renders his apology a nonsense doesn't it. As for blaming the media for his failure to apologise for 26 years. Unbelievable. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 13, 2015 19:38:50 GMT
Utterly unbelievable backtracking .... "Asked about the lie to which he admitted the previous day, Duckenfield clarified that he had not lied directly about the major opening of the exit gate. He said that when he told Kelly that fans had forced the gate open, he was referring to an earlier, brief opening of the gate. He said he was admitting that was a lie because he had been advised it was a lie of omission." www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/12/hillsborough-inquest-duckenfield-south-yorkshire-policeWow, he's obviously trying to save his own skin by muddying the waters so that his own previous admissions of guilt might not stick. Renders his apology a nonsense doesn't it. As for blaming the media for his failure to apologise for 26 years. Unbelievable. It's absolutely shocking and it would appear on the face of it, that he's received advice from elsewhere overnight. "Some of the family members in the courtroom sighed in exasperation at that, and the coroner, Sir John Goldring, reminded them that it was important to listen to the evidence in silence." Their reaction is hardly surprising. |
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Post by onionman on Mar 13, 2015 19:45:17 GMT
Wow, he's obviously trying to save his own skin by muddying the waters so that his own previous admissions of guilt might not stick. Renders his apology a nonsense doesn't it. As for blaming the media for his failure to apologise for 26 years. Unbelievable. It's absolutely shocking and it would appear on the face of it, that he's received advice from elsewhere overnight. "Some of the family members in the courtroom sighed in exasperation at that, and the coroner, Sir John Goldring, reminded them that it was important to listen to the evidence in silence." Their reaction is hardly surprising. This bit bears all the hallmarks of a man who is following the advise of legal advisers without even understanding it: He said he was admitting that was a lie because he had been advised it was a lie of omission.
Asked who had advised him, Duckenfield corrected himself, saying: “No sir, I used a wrong word.”
It's as if he went in there on a mission to use the phrase "lie of omission" as he'd been told that would get him out of trouble. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 13, 2015 19:46:42 GMT
It's absolutely shocking and it would appear on the face of it, that he's received advice from elsewhere overnight. "Some of the family members in the courtroom sighed in exasperation at that, and the coroner, Sir John Goldring, reminded them that it was important to listen to the evidence in silence." Their reaction is hardly surprising. This bit bears all the hallmarks of a man who is following the advise of legal advisers without even understanding it: He said he was admitting that was a lie because he had been advised it was a lie of omission.
Asked who had advised him, Duckenfield corrected himself, saying: “No sir, I used a wrong word.”
It's as if he went in there on a mission to use the phrase "lie of omission" as he'd been told that would get him out of trouble. Absolutely baffling mate. |
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Mar 13, 2015 20:02:07 GMT
The problem here is that there were many many factors coming into play that culminated in a perfect storm of deadly circumstance. There is no individual solely to blame and although I completely understand the desire to push this to an ultimate conclusion it would be plain wrong to helpmate blame for these deaths on a single individual. Are we not a step closer to establishing an institutional cover up? The cover up at state level was started and contrived the moment Thatcher and her short arsed sports minister rolled up at the scene of the tragedy to plot how to put the blame on football supporters. It was of course required to take the heat off what she considered to be her private political security firm otherwise known as the 'heroes of Orgreave' |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 13, 2015 20:10:33 GMT
Are we not a step closer to establishing an institutional cover up? The cover up at state level was started and contrived the moment Thatcher and her short arsed sports minister rolled up at the scene of the tragedy to plot how to put the blame on football supporters. It was of course required to take the heat off what she considered to be her private political security firm otherwise known as the 'heroes of Orgreave' Spot on...well put. |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Mar 13, 2015 20:16:40 GMT
To the people who still insist it was because of too many fans or that they were drunk - if an admittance guilt from the man who was in charge that day can't change your mind, then you're up there with people who believe there was no planes on 9/11, the Queen is a lizard and Elvis is still walking around Las Vegas. But there was overcrowding Potter. But not because of ticketless fans. The recommended capacity of Leppings Lane had been reduced following safety inspections in 1978. The condition of terracing, crush barriers, position of floodlight bases, lack of escape routes, lack of turnstiles had all led to the crowd capacity recommendation to be reduced significantly. Sheffield Wednesday ignored this advice and this resulted in FA cup semis not being played there between 1981 and 1988. However for reasons unknown the FA cup semis were re-instated at Hillsborough in 1988 even though the ground lacked a safety certificate. My point is had crowd capacity been adhered to then the number of fans present on that day would have been very significantly less and incidents that conspired would not, IMO, have had such a devastating end. |
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Post by basingstokie on Mar 13, 2015 20:21:34 GMT
Duckface is obviously aware that he is treading a fine line between admitting what actually happens and perjuring himself
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Post by skip on Mar 13, 2015 20:57:37 GMT
Thatchers disdain of football and wider still the working class led to the death of 96 innocents. That's where the blame lies. The inexperienced lying copper is a front. Fuck her and all her kind.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 13, 2015 22:31:04 GMT
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 13, 2015 22:41:57 GMT
We were sent to Hell in a hand-cart & accepted it as lambs to the slaughter. "Oh Maggie, what have you done!?!"
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Mar 13, 2015 23:31:34 GMT
And thats where you are wrong. Only a few months earlier at an FA Cup replay at Barnsley the exact same thing could have happened to Stoke fans. The South Yorkshire Police (Yes, the same force) decided to open a gate which allowed many ticketless Stokies into the ground, which IF it had had pens similar to Hillsborough could have caused a crush and many many Stoke fans would have been injured/killed. South Yorkshire police at that time were incompetent beyond belief and anyone in the higher reaches of that time should be made to pay/suffer for the anguish and suffering they have caused to the families of 96 FOOTBALL fans, and to ensure it can NEVER happen again. But that is kind of my point. The ticketless fans were there and added to the crush outside and then ran in through the open gate. If they were not there would the problems inside and out been so severe? It doesn't matter if there were Liverpool, Stoke or any other fans they have to accept that the ticketless fans would have played their part in what happened. Then again you have the pissed up fans. Again every club has/had them. Over zealous boystrus lads fans havin a good time but who would also unwittingly added to the chaos of the day. Nobody is saying they are to blame for the tragedy but they must have played a part in the many events that led to it. The least to blame are the 96 souls who lost there lives due to events behind them. Were the police to blame for the cover up and events after? 100% yes. Were they to blame for the tragedy itself? They played their part as did many others. I repeat my earlier advice to read the HIP report rather than saying that ticketless fans "would have" played their part and pissed up fans "must have" played a part. |
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Post by onlyonesirstan on Mar 13, 2015 23:48:48 GMT
And thats where you are wrong. Only a few months earlier at an FA Cup replay at Barnsley the exact same thing could have happened to Stoke fans. The South Yorkshire Police (Yes, the same force) decided to open a gate which allowed many ticketless Stokies into the ground, which IF it had had pens similar to Hillsborough could have caused a crush and many many Stoke fans would have been injured/killed. South Yorkshire police at that time were incompetent beyond belief and anyone in the higher reaches of that time should be made to pay/suffer for the anguish and suffering they have caused to the families of 96 FOOTBALL fans, and to ensure it can NEVER happen again. But that is kind of my point. The ticketless fans were there and added to the crush outside and then ran in through the open gate. If they were not there would the problems inside and out been so severe? It doesn't matter if there were Liverpool, Stoke or any other fans they have to accept that the ticketless fans would have played their part in what happened. Then again you have the pissed up fans. Again every club has/had them. Over zealous boystrus lads fans havin a good time but who would also unwittingly added to the chaos of the day. Nobody is saying they are to blame for the tragedy but they must have played a part in the many events that led to it. The least to blame are the 96 souls who lost there lives due to events behind them. Were the police to blame for the cover up and events after? 100% yes. Were they to blame for the tragedy itself? They played their part as did many others. That is the best bit written about a post that is getting out of hand. People are on here want to crucify the police, thatcher and anyone else but liverpool fans. There were too many liverpool fans who didn't have tickets to get into the ground. Ok, the police made an error, but the liverpool fans who travelled without tickets are just as much to blame. Without them there, it may never have happened, ok we will never know, but you can't blame everything on the police and government, because you hate them both. |
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Post by Davef on Mar 13, 2015 23:54:45 GMT
But that is kind of my point. The ticketless fans were there and added to the crush outside and then ran in through the open gate. If they were not there would the problems inside and out been so severe? It doesn't matter if there were Liverpool, Stoke or any other fans they have to accept that the ticketless fans would have played their part in what happened. Then again you have the pissed up fans. Again every club has/had them. Over zealous boystrus lads fans havin a good time but who would also unwittingly added to the chaos of the day. Nobody is saying they are to blame for the tragedy but they must have played a part in the many events that led to it. The least to blame are the 96 souls who lost there lives due to events behind them. Were the police to blame for the cover up and events after? 100% yes. Were they to blame for the tragedy itself? They played their part as did many others. That is the best bit written about a post that is getting out of hand. People are on here want to crucify the police, thatcher and anyone else but liverpool fans. There were too many liverpool fans who didn't have tickets to get into the ground. Ok, the police made an error, but the liverpool fans who travelled without tickets are just as much to blame. Without them there, it may never have happened, ok we will never know, but you can't blame everything on the police and government, because you hate them both. |
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Post by onlyonesirstan on Mar 14, 2015 0:07:36 GMT
That is the best bit written about a post that is getting out of hand. People are on here want to crucify the police, thatcher and anyone else but liverpool fans. There were too many liverpool fans who didn't have tickets to get into the ground. Ok, the police made an error, but the liverpool fans who travelled without tickets are just as much to blame. Without them there, it may never have happened, ok we will never know, but you can't blame everything on the police and government, because you hate them both. I'm glad in that report they could count them to the exact number. |
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Post by skip on Mar 14, 2015 0:41:17 GMT
Onlyonesirstan - I have an ambivalent towards coppers at the best of times and personally with very good reason. My old man was a copper for 30 years and for a period of time was in charge of the Boothen End. Even he acknowledged the Hillsborough tragedy was a complete farce and a tragedy. I'll never forget watching it on the tele with him and went as white as a sheet.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2015 0:44:06 GMT
That is the best bit written about a post that is getting out of hand. People are on here want to crucify the police, thatcher and anyone else but liverpool fans. There were too many liverpool fans who didn't have tickets to get into the ground. Ok, the police made an error, but the liverpool fans who travelled without tickets are just as much to blame. Without them there, it may never have happened, ok we will never know, but you can't blame everything on the police and government, because you hate them both. That photo is the one that demonstrates there wasn't a point where the terrace was over capacity. The arriving late thing is what gets me. The overcrowding outside started just after 2.20. Is that late? |
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Post by ukcstokie on Mar 14, 2015 1:11:36 GMT
Duckenfield isn't the story here. He made mistakes and he tried to cover them up. He's not the full reason why those 96 died.
If it hadn't happened at Hillsborough on that fateful day, it would have happened another day. At another stadium. To some other poor unfortunate souls.
To me, the real cause of that tragedy, was the approach to crowd control which had developed.
The police weren't at matches for public safety. They were there keep fans in their places. To be let off the leash and take their frustrations out on fans. It was that attitude that allowed Hillsborough to happen. To allow the cages. To allow the massive mistreatment of fans (with South Yorks and West Midlands Police being the worse).
The blame lies with the politicians who encouraged this attitude (Thatcher and Moynihan being the worse), the tabloids who fanned the flames to sell newspapers, and those who were involved in football violence - they were the ones who ultimately allowed them to put us in cages. To allow the police to beat innocent fans without fear of repercussion.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 14, 2015 1:21:03 GMT
Duckenfield isn't the story here. He made mistakes and he tried to cover them up. He's not the full reason why those 96 died. If it hadn't happened at Hillsborough on that fateful day, it would have happened another day. At another stadium. To some other poor unfortunate souls. To me, the real cause of that tragedy, was the approach to crowd control which had developed. The police weren't at matches for public safety. They were there keep fans in their places. To be let off the leash and take their frustrations out on fans. It was that attitude that allowed Hillsborough to happen. To allow the cages. To allow the massive mistreatment of fans (with South Yorks and West Midlands Police being the worse). The blame lies with the politicians who encouraged this attitude (Thatcher and Moynihan being the worse), the tabloids who fanned the flames to sell newspapers, and those who were involved in football violence - they were the ones who ultimately allowed them to put us in cages. To allow the police to beat innocent fans without fear of repercussion. Policing at football grounds was, for many years, a sore point amongst supporters. It was former Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police John Stalker who said in the 80s he was aware that many police knew that football matches were one time they were “Let off the leash”. On the 31st January 1989 Stoke played an FA Cup replay at Barnsley. Thousands of Stoke supporters arrived late due to traffic congestion. Outside the ground a crush developed and people were getting hurt. The initial response was to send a police horse running through the crowd which only added to the chaos. To ease the congestion the police opened one of the huge exit gates which allowed the crowd to enter the ground free of charge. This was the response the same force used two months later at Hillsborough. Had there been more Stoke supporters on the away terrace that night we could have suffered that awful disaster. Same situation, same police force, same reaction. We, like all football supporters, were actually riding our luck, not just on that night, but for so many years. There was very little consideration for the issue of crowd safety over crowd control. It could have been any of us with the loss of life….. and the same scandalous tabloid allegations. Sadly, the police cover up and tabloid lies led to many people, including football fans, just reinforcing their own prejudices about people from Merseyside. |
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 14, 2015 1:58:23 GMT
But that is kind of my point. The ticketless fans were there and added to the crush outside and then ran in through the open gate. If they were not there would the problems inside and out been so severe? It doesn't matter if there were Liverpool, Stoke or any other fans they have to accept that the ticketless fans would have played their part in what happened. Then again you have the pissed up fans. Again every club has/had them. Over zealous boystrus lads fans havin a good time but who would also unwittingly added to the chaos of the day. Nobody is saying they are to blame for the tragedy but they must have played a part in the many events that led to it. The least to blame are the 96 souls who lost there lives due to events behind them. Were the police to blame for the cover up and events after? 100% yes. Were they to blame for the tragedy itself? They played their part as did many others. That is the best bit written about a post that is getting out of hand. People are on here want to crucify the police, thatcher and anyone else but liverpool fans. There were too many liverpool fans who didn't have tickets to get into the ground. Ok, the police made an error, but the liverpool fans who travelled without tickets are just as much to blame. Without them there, it may never have happened, ok we will never know, but you can't blame everything on the police and government, because you hate them both. It is "getting out of hand", as it always does on here, because people who are utterly, wilfully ignorant about the matter - like yourself - are choosing to regurgitate disgusting lies about fellow football fans that were discredited many, many years ago and are discredited further with every passing bit of investigation. For the record...: "There were too many liverpool fans who didn't have tickets to get into the ground." No. There weren't. "the liverpool fans who travelled without tickets are just as much to blame." No they are not. They are not to blame at all. "Without them there, it may never have happened" Yes. It would have still happened without the negligible number of ticketless fans. "we will never know" We do know. We know *now*. Edit: These are facts. Being charitable, I'm going to assume you are just extremely uninformed about this issue. In this case, I repeat Malcolm's words above and implore you to inform yourself properly about the case before expressing insulting and erroneous opinions on it. |
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