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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 27, 2013 11:31:42 GMT
I posted something similar during the match but I thought the 30 seconds or so surrounding Jon's two chances sums him up.
1. He cleverly finds the position to allow Crouch to play him in. A big part of a forwards game is positional, and Jon often gets into very good positions. So far so good. 2. Next comes the crucial bit. The shot. Not the worst but not the best. A good height for De Gea and too close to his body. A genuine striker would have found the corner or put it low and close to the keepers legs. The fact is Walters is not a striker, certainly not a Premier League one. 3. To his credit he reacts and gets another shot away. Again though just not good enough and you never really fancy him in those situations.
BUT........
4. While we all blart, bitch and roar obscenities at Jon Boy......what does he do? Hang his head? Look to the sky's and beat his chest? No. He sprints back into the midfield and impressively wins back possession from a dawdling United midfielder. It should have set up another opportunity for us but Nzonzi (I think) hands back possession to United lamely.
So, in a nutshell, why Jon is better than what we have, not quite good enough to be a true top level player but also has bigger bollocks, heart and more guts than most of our other more "able" players.
It's also why I love him and, until we have a more talented but equally committed option, am happy to keep giving him my backing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 11:56:49 GMT
I posted something similar during the match but I thought the 30 seconds or so surrounding Jon's two chances sums him up. 1. He cleverly finds the position to allow Crouch to play him in. A big part of a forwards game is positional, and Jon often gets into very good positions. So far so good. 2. Next comes the crucial bit. The shot. Not the worst but not the best. A good height for De Gea and too close to his body. A genuine striker would have found the corner or put it low and close to the keepers legs. The fact is Walters is not a striker, certainly not a Premier League one. 3. To his credit he reacts and gets another shot away. Again though just not good enough and you never really fancy him in those situations. BUT........ 4. While we all blart, bitch and roar obscenities at Jon Boy......what does he do? Hang his head? Look to the sky's and beat his chest? No. He sprints back into the midfield and impressively wins back possession from a dawdling United midfielder. It should have set up another opportunity for us but Nzonzi (I think) hands back possession to United lamely. So, in a nutshell, why Jon is better than what we have, not quite good enough to be a true top level player but also has bigger bollocks, heart and more guts than most of our other more "able" players. It's also why I love him and, until we have a more talented but equally committed option, am happy to keep giving him my backing. I have asked the following question to quite a few of Walters supporters with no credible answer as yet, you seem to have put a bit more meat on the bones, so here we go what is his best position, to me he does not posses the quality to score goals although granted he somehow finds himself in great areas where he should score, he does not have the ability to defend adequately see the winning goal yesterday, any half decent defender would have cut out the cross or pushed the man inside into a crowded situation where the danger would have been dealt with. All this he runs about a lot, works harder, has bigger bollocks etc for me does not make up for his limited abilities and never will, championship player at best.
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 27, 2013 12:00:19 GMT
I posted something similar during the match but I thought the 30 seconds or so surrounding Jon's two chances sums him up. 1. He cleverly finds the position to allow Crouch to play him in. A big part of a forwards game is positional, and Jon often gets into very good positions. So far so good. 2. Next comes the crucial bit. The shot. Not the worst but not the best. A good height for De Gea and too close to his body. A genuine striker would have found the corner or put it low and close to the keepers legs. The fact is Walters is not a striker, certainly not a Premier League one. 3. To his credit he reacts and gets another shot away. Again though just not good enough and you never really fancy him in those situations. BUT........ 4. While we all blart, bitch and roar obscenities at Jon Boy......what does he do? Hang his head? Look to the sky's and beat his chest? No. He sprints back into the midfield and impressively wins back possession from a dawdling United midfielder. It should have set up another opportunity for us but Nzonzi (I think) hands back possession to United lamely. So, in a nutshell, why Jon is better than what we have, not quite good enough to be a true top level player but also has bigger bollocks, heart and more guts than most of our other more "able" players. It's also why I love him and, until we have a more talented but equally committed option, am happy to keep giving him my backing. I have asked the following question to quite a few of Walters supporters with no credible answer as yet, you seem to have put a bit more meat on the bones, so here we go what is his best position, to me he does not posses the quality to score goals although granted he somehow finds himself in great areas where he should score, he does not have the ability to defend adequately see the winning goal yesterday, any half decent defender would have cut out the cross or pushed the man inside into a crowded situation where the danger would have been dealt with. All this he runs about a lot, works harder, has bigger bollocks etc for me does not make up for his limited abilities and never will, championship player at best. I think one of Jon's biggest problems is that he doesn't have a position. He's not quick enough to be a winger, not clinical enough to be a striker and not enough of a ball player to play in the hole. Despite all that he's a decent all rounder and will do a pretty consistent and reliable job. He's a poor mans Dirk Kuyt and, just like Jon, Kuyt was either loved or hated.
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Post by redwhite on Oct 27, 2013 12:10:52 GMT
What's the use of being the man at the end of some good play when you're utterly incapable of scoring? Arnautovic and Assaidi have both scored a good number of goals from the wing in the past and are miles better than Walters in every department apart from marathon running. In the past? In that case so has Walters whose goals helped to get us to Wembley. No. In the past as in when they were last playing football. Do you think Walters is better than Arnie or Assaidi?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 12:12:32 GMT
I have asked the following question to quite a few of Walters supporters with no credible answer as yet, you seem to have put a bit more meat on the bones, so here we go what is his best position, to me he does not posses the quality to score goals although granted he somehow finds himself in great areas where he should score, he does not have the ability to defend adequately see the winning goal yesterday, any half decent defender would have cut out the cross or pushed the man inside into a crowded situation where the danger would have been dealt with. All this he runs about a lot, works harder, has bigger bollocks etc for me does not make up for his limited abilities and never will, championship player at best. I think one of Jon's biggest problems is that he doesn't have a position. He's not quick enough to be a winger, not clinical enough to be a striker and not enough of a ball player to play in the hole. Despite all that he's a decent all rounder and will do a pretty consistent and reliable job. He's a poor mans Dirk Kuyt and, just like Jon, Kuyt was either loved or hated. He doesn't have a position ? , so he was bought in as a winger(he can't do that), he is not a striker (he can't do that), as a withdrawn striker (he can't do that), I think we have already established he is not a very good defender can you explain what he can do, please do not come back with he runs about a lot I am sick of hearing that sort of shit.
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Post by potterpaul on Oct 27, 2013 12:15:14 GMT
I have asked the following question to quite a few of Walters supporters with no credible answer as yet, you seem to have put a bit more meat on the bones, so here we go what is his best position, to me he does not posses the quality to score goals although granted he somehow finds himself in great areas where he should score, he does not have the ability to defend adequately see the winning goal yesterday, any half decent defender would have cut out the cross or pushed the man inside into a crowded situation where the danger would have been dealt with. All this he runs about a lot, works harder, has bigger bollocks etc for me does not make up for his limited abilities and never will, championship player at best. I think one of Jon's biggest problems is that he doesn't have a position. He's not quick enough to be a winger, not clinical enough to be a striker and not enough of a ball player to play in the hole. Despite all that he's a decent all rounder and will do a pretty consistent and reliable job. He's a poor mans Dirk Kuyt and, just like Jon, Kuyt was either loved or hated.
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Post by kev1060 on Oct 27, 2013 12:18:08 GMT
You get what you pay for in football. The top teams pay £25-£40 million for world class strikers, unfortunately we pay £3 million for journeymen English strikers in the main. TP saw something in Walters that gave him a 'Utility' forward on the cheap who can fill in anywhere across the forward line or out wide and who can run and run. I lkie most others, now wait with baited breath for our next penalty to be awarded!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 12:24:00 GMT
You get what you pay for in football. The top teams pay £25-£40 million for world class strikers, unfortunately we pay £3 million for journeymen English strikers in the main. TP saw something in Walters that gave him a 'Utility' forward on the cheap who can fill in anywhere across the forward line or out wide and who can run and run. I lkie most others, now wait with baited breath for our next penalty to be awarded! Crouch £10m, Jones £8m , that would explain his judgment on striking players, I have a dog that runs and runs and runs he is also pretty wank at football perhaps I could sell him to Stoke for £2/3m.
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Post by malteser68 on Oct 27, 2013 12:42:10 GMT
Pathetic excuse for a footballer. just not good enough. Period
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 12:45:58 GMT
Pathetic excuse for a footballer. just not good enough. Period +1 we are crying out for better.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 27, 2013 12:51:37 GMT
You get what you pay for in football. The top teams pay £25-£40 million for world class strikers, unfortunately we pay £3 million for journeymen English strikers in the main. TP saw something in Walters that gave him a 'Utility' forward on the cheap who can fill in anywhere across the forward line or out wide and who can run and run. I lkie most others, now wait with baited breath for our next penalty to be awarded! Crouch £10m, Jones £8m , that would explain his judgment on striking players, I have a dog that runs and runs and runs he is also pretty wank at football perhaps I could sell him to Stoke for £2/3m. Or sign Mo Farah?
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Post by thevoid on Oct 27, 2013 12:53:51 GMT
You get what you pay for in football. The top teams pay £25-£40 million for world class strikers, unfortunately we pay £3 million for journeymen English strikers in the main. TP saw something in Walters that gave him a 'Utility' forward on the cheap who can fill in anywhere across the forward line or out wide and who can run and run. I lkie most others, now wait with baited breath for our next penalty to be awarded! There's bargains to be had in the foreign market, you just need a manager with contacts (and a decent scouting system).
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 27, 2013 13:13:18 GMT
I think one of Jon's biggest problems is that he doesn't have a position. He's not quick enough to be a winger, not clinical enough to be a striker and not enough of a ball player to play in the hole. Despite all that he's a decent all rounder and will do a pretty consistent and reliable job. He's a poor mans Dirk Kuyt and, just like Jon, Kuyt was either loved or hated. Does everything really need to be qualified and explained at a basic level on here? For the benefit of our more challenged posters, Walters isn't good enough to be a TOP striker, a TOP winger or a TOP withdrawn centre forward. But he is more than capable of doing a decent enough job in those positions while we have a serious lack of alternatives.
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Post by harrysburrow on Oct 27, 2013 13:24:57 GMT
Is it right though, that ordinary adjectives like able, capable, workmanlike and decent should be used to describe a player that has been a virtually ever-present, first name on the team sheet for 2 managers over the last 3 years?
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 27, 2013 13:31:44 GMT
Is it right though, that ordinary adjectives like able, capable, workmanlike and decent should be used to describe a player that has been a virtually ever-present, first name on the team sheet for 2 managers over the last 3 years? We should arguably have better options. We don't. Until we do I'm not sure how he can get so much criticism for giving his all every game. If every player we field gave as much in terms of effort and commitment we wouldn't be talking about him. We'd be ten points better off, he would be a peripheral figure and we'd have other things to talk about. As it is, he doesn't hide, he does his job and other more "capable" players flit in and out of games safe in the knowledge that, if things go tits up, Jon will be there to take the flak.
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Post by iglugluk on Oct 27, 2013 14:02:05 GMT
You get what you pay for in football. The top teams pay £25-£40 million for world class strikers, unfortunately we pay £3 million for journeymen English strikers in the main. TP saw something in Walters that gave him a 'Utility' forward on the cheap who can fill in anywhere across the forward line or out wide and who can run and run. I lkie most others, now wait with baited breath for our next penalty to be awarded! Quality can be bought at a price way less than you have quoted if the club has a decent scouting system and buys wisely....Benteke for Villa, Michu for Swansea and many other deals come to mind. Conversely paying over £30million can buy the like of Carroll. Also we don't necessarily need a world class striker we just need alot better than what we have. Let's face it Stoke haven't spent their money well in respect to forwards and it was mainly TP's lack of vision that's responsible, imo. We could have bought Demba Ba for well under £10 million but the club contrived to fuck that up too. Walters is a hard worker but we shouldn't be relying on a player with his obvious lack of talent week in week out I don't think, he's an example of quantity over quality type thinking.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2013 14:05:31 GMT
Does everything really need to be qualified and explained at a basic level on here? For the benefit of our more challenged posters, Walters isn't good enough to be a TOP striker, a TOP winger or a TOP withdrawn centre forward. But he is more than capable of doing a decent enough job in those positions while we have a serious lack of alternatives. You never mentioned TOP in the original post, you pointed out quite rightly in my opinion his shortcomings in all three of the positions he gets paid to carry out, backtracking is not his or yours strongest asset.
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 27, 2013 14:11:30 GMT
Does everything really need to be qualified and explained at a basic level on here? For the benefit of our more challenged posters, Walters isn't good enough to be a TOP striker, a TOP winger or a TOP withdrawn centre forward. But he is more than capable of doing a decent enough job in those positions while we have a serious lack of alternatives. You never mentioned TOP in the original post, you pointed out quite rightly in my opinion his shortcomings in all three of the positions he gets paid to carry out, backtracking is not his or yours strongest asset. Don't worry. I've made a note not to overestimate the intelligence of certain posters in the future. Lesson learned.
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Post by redwhite on Oct 27, 2013 14:14:25 GMT
Is it right though, that ordinary adjectives like able, capable, workmanlike and decent should be used to describe a player that has been a virtually ever-present, first name on the team sheet for 2 managers over the last 3 years? We should arguably have better options. We don't. Until we do I'm not sure how he can get so much criticism for giving his all every game. If every player we field gave as much in terms of effort and commitment we wouldn't be talking about him. We'd be ten points better off, he would be a peripheral figure and we'd have other things to talk about. As it is, he doesn't hide, he does his job and other more "capable" players flit in and out of games safe in the knowledge that, if things go tits up, Jon will be there to take the flak. What makes Pennant and Assaidi worse options than Walters?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 27, 2013 15:29:20 GMT
We should arguably have better options. We don't. Until we do I'm not sure how he can get so much criticism for giving his all every game. If every player we field gave as much in terms of effort and commitment we wouldn't be talking about him. We'd be ten points better off, he would be a peripheral figure and we'd have other things to talk about. As it is, he doesn't hide, he does his job and other more "capable" players flit in and out of games safe in the knowledge that, if things go tits up, Jon will be there to take the flak. What makes Pennant and Assaidi worse options than Walters? I love how the usual suspects (there's only a handful of them left these days) are out in force every single fucking week to defend plodder Walters. It reminds me of the Pulis rimmers defending the clueless one when it was becoming more and more obvious he needed to be sacked. Walters is fucking shit...deal with it. Give me a player who can provide match winning moments over a hapless donkey any day of the week.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 27, 2013 15:34:30 GMT
What makes Pennant and Assaidi worse options than Walters? I love how the usual suspects (there's only a handful of them left these days) are out in force every single fucking week to defend plodder Walters. It reminds me of the Pulis rimmers defending the clueless one when it was becoming more and more obvious he needed to be sacked. Walters is fucking shit...deal with it. Give me a player who can provide match winning moments over a hapless donkey any day of the week. Correct. He's taking up a wage that could be used elsewhere. I've worked with people who are very nice, and try their best, but haven't been up to the job and have been shown their cards.
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Post by shiftyfifty on Oct 27, 2013 15:36:54 GMT
We should arguably have better options. We don't. Until we do I'm not sure how he can get so much criticism for giving his all every game. If every player we field gave as much in terms of effort and commitment we wouldn't be talking about him. We'd be ten points better off, he would be a peripheral figure and we'd have other things to talk about. As it is, he doesn't hide, he does his job and other more "capable" players flit in and out of games safe in the knowledge that, if things go tits up, Jon will be there to take the flak. What makes Pennant and Assaidi worse options than Walters? TP and Hughes obviously prefer him and, I rate their knowledge of the game far higher than yours.
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Post by cartman123 on Oct 27, 2013 15:38:32 GMT
He's got to be dropped against Southampton. We have to win. Simple as that.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 27, 2013 15:38:40 GMT
I love how the usual suspects (there's only a handful of them left these days) are out in force every single fucking week to defend plodder Walters. It reminds me of the Pulis rimmers defending the clueless one when it was becoming more and more obvious he needed to be sacked. Walters is fucking shit...deal with it. Give me a player who can provide match winning moments over a hapless donkey any day of the week. Correct. He's taking up a wage that could be chanelled elsewhere. I've worked with people who are very nice, and try their best, but haven't been up to the job and have been shown their cards. Absolutely voidy. I work in a pretty high and fire sales environment and it's no different to football. If you aren't hitting your targets youre out. Why this doesnt apply to Jon Walters after 2 years of consistently abysmal performances is anyone's guess. 97 consecutive starts for a guy who can't hit a barn door with a banjo- is it surprising we have been the lowest scorers in English football 2 years running?
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 27, 2013 15:43:01 GMT
We should arguably have better options. We don't. Until we do I'm not sure how he can get so much criticism for giving his all every game. If every player we field gave as much in terms of effort and commitment we wouldn't be talking about him. We'd be ten points better off, he would be a peripheral figure and we'd have other things to talk about. As it is, he doesn't hide, he does his job and other more "capable" players flit in and out of games safe in the knowledge that, if things go tits up, Jon will be there to take the flak. What makes Pennant and Assaidi worse options than Walters? What makes Mark Hughes a better judge than us? Decades spent involved in the game at the top level?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 27, 2013 15:44:43 GMT
What makes Pennant and Assaidi worse options than Walters? TP and Hughes obviously prefer him and, I rate their knowledge of the game far higher than yours. Walters was a major reason for Pulis being sacked given he was central to everything shit about our game ie not scoring and creating fuck all. In fact if Pulis had used Pennant as opposed to Walters who knows he might still be in a job. Hughes needs to stop playing him otherwise he will find himself in a similar predicament which would be a shame. We aren't scoring enough and Walters is a major reason for that.
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Post by foxysgloves on Oct 27, 2013 15:45:24 GMT
What makes Pennant and Assaidi worse options than Walters? I love how the usual suspects (there's only a handful of them left these days) are out in force every single fucking week to defend plodder Walters. It reminds me of the Pulis rimmers defending the clueless one when it was becoming more and more obvious he needed to be sacked. Walters is fucking shit...deal with it. Give me a player who can provide match winning moments over a hapless donkey any day of the week. Or give you a bloke with a greasy pony tail, a penchant for mardy strops and the ability to perfom miracles on a football pitch (once in every hundred attempts).
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 27, 2013 15:48:13 GMT
I love how the usual suspects (there's only a handful of them left these days) are out in force every single fucking week to defend plodder Walters. It reminds me of the Pulis rimmers defending the clueless one when it was becoming more and more obvious he needed to be sacked. Walters is fucking shit...deal with it. Give me a player who can provide match winning moments over a hapless donkey any day of the week. Or give you a bloke with a greasy pony tail, a penchant for mardy strops and the ability to perfom miracles on a football pitch (once in every hundred attempts). He was a match winner though...you can't deny that. In much the same way Arnie is a matchwinner. I see many similarities in Arnie's game to that of the Turk. We've already seen at West Ham this season why Pennant is a far better option than Walters. Assaidi has looked good too and has the pace and positivity to cause opposing defenders problems.
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Post by shiftyfifty on Oct 27, 2013 15:49:17 GMT
TP and Hughes obviously prefer him and, I rate their knowledge of the game far higher than yours. Walters was a major reason for Pulis being sacked given he was central to everything shit about our game ie not scoring and creating fuck all. In fact if Pulis had used Pennant as opposed to Walters who knows he might still be in a job. Hughes needs to stop playing him otherwise he will find himself in a similar predicament which would be a shame. We aren't scoring enough and Walters is a major reason for that. Pennant! The one who couldn't even get in a sh*t Wolves side. As little as I like Hughes, I believe he has a far greater knowledge of football than someone who still gets hard over Tuncay.
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Post by phil51 on Oct 27, 2013 15:51:42 GMT
I like Jon Walters.
He is one of my favourite players.
He must be one of the best £3m we have ever spent at Stoke.
I am constantly amazed by all the criticism he gets (although I don't supposed I should be).
Chin up Jon; there are many Stoke fans who appreciate what you bring to the team.
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