Do you want us relegated next season?

[dozintheseventees]

I don't want Tuncay to go but I think he will. However, if in the process, that deters other mard-arse superstars who feel they should have an automatic right to a first team spot or 90 minutes on the pitch, then I'll not shed any tears. I'm not necessarily saying that's the case with Tuncay as I only know what I see but I certainly don't think it would put off any quality player from joining us. They are much more concerned about how much we're prepared to pay them truth be told.

[begovicnumber1]

Yes. Hopefully Stoke would be replaced with a team like Swansea, who play a decent brand of football. They certainly look a decent side on Sky.

[alster]

Apr 22, 2010 12:48:11 GMT @robvandeurzen83 said:

Just a few points:

Tuncay WAS being petulant. He made a dismissive hand gesture in the direction of the bench and was shaking his head every second he was walking off before studiously ignoring the manager and stomping off. Don't give me any of this, "ooh he just wants the bath to himself" queenery.

Aston Villa and Chelsea SHOULD play better than us given the resources and name value available to them shouldn't they? And even then Villa are often hugely negative and dire to watch.

I wonder if Wigan fans are happy with "playing like Wigan athletic", given that Martinez seems to have split the fans and they'll stay up by the skin of their teeth this season?

Exactly who is playing this glorious top flight football outside the top 6 or so clubs? Wigan? Hanging in there. Burnley? Doomed. Would people really rather swap where we are now for a relegation battle for the sake of a few pretty passes here and there?

TP has "driven us mad with his football" has he? presumably only if you weren't there for Ball, Jordan, Little, Bates, Kamara and Thordarson. You'd think from the way some of you whinge that we were still in the third tier and that before Pulis came here we were playing like Ajax.

I'm struggling to grasp your logic. Villa and Chelsea play with the same/similar formations to us but the the balance of their team is more attacking due to the fact they have more attack minded players on the pitch at anytime than we do. They're not just better players or bigger names they are simply more offensively minded players than those we regularly field. is it that you disagree with this point or just plain don't understand it.

Martinez has divided opinion among Wigans few fans. Well what do you think Pulis does with Stoke fans do you think we universally love his brand of football.

Sorry to have to inform you but most Premier league teams play a more entertaining brand of football than us.

I've supported Stoke through all those managers and more and terrible as they were for other reasons, I don't recall any of them regularly fielding more defensively balanced teams than Pulis does.

[gamesmaster]

Apr 22, 2010 12:48:11 GMT @robvandeurzen83 said:

Just a few points:

Tuncay WAS being petulant. He made a dismissive hand gesture in the direction of the bench and was shaking his head every second he was walking off before studiously ignoring the manager and stomping off. Don't give me any of this, "ooh he just wants the bath to himself" queenery.

Aston Villa and Chelsea SHOULD play better than us given the resources and name value available to them shouldn't they? And even then Villa are often hugely negative and dire to watch.

I wonder if Wigan fans are happy with "playing like Wigan athletic", given that Martinez seems to have split the fans and they'll stay up by the skin of their teeth this season?

Exactly who is playing this glorious top flight football outside the top 6 or so clubs? Wigan? Hanging in there. Burnley? Doomed. Would people really rather swap where we are now for a relegation battle for the sake of a few pretty passes here and there?

TP has "driven us mad with his football" has he? presumably only if you weren't there for Ball, Jordan, Little, Bates, Kamara and Thordarson. You'd think from the way some of you whinge that we were still in the third tier and that before Pulis came here we were playing like Ajax.

Again, absolutely spot on!!

[gamesmaster]

Apr 22, 2010 13:29:50 GMT alster said:

Apr 22, 2010 12:48:11 GMT @robvandeurzen83 said:

Just a few points:

Tuncay WAS being petulant. He made a dismissive hand gesture in the direction of the bench and was shaking his head every second he was walking off before studiously ignoring the manager and stomping off. Don't give me any of this, "ooh he just wants the bath to himself" queenery.

Aston Villa and Chelsea SHOULD play better than us given the resources and name value available to them shouldn't they? And even then Villa are often hugely negative and dire to watch.

I wonder if Wigan fans are happy with "playing like Wigan athletic", given that Martinez seems to have split the fans and they'll stay up by the skin of their teeth this season?

Exactly who is playing this glorious top flight football outside the top 6 or so clubs? Wigan? Hanging in there. Burnley? Doomed. Would people really rather swap where we are now for a relegation battle for the sake of a few pretty passes here and there?

TP has "driven us mad with his football" has he? presumably only if you weren't there for Ball, Jordan, Little, Bates, Kamara and Thordarson. You'd think from the way some of you whinge that we were still in the third tier and that before Pulis came here we were playing like Ajax.

I'm struggling to grasp your logic. Villa and Chelsea play with the same/similar formations to us but the the balance of their team is more attacking due to the fact they have more attack minded players on the pitch at anytime than we do. They're not just better players or bigger names they are simply more offensively minded players than those we regularly field. is it that you disagree with this point or just plain don't understand it.

Martinez has divided opinion among Wigans few fans. Well what do you think Pulis does with Stoke fans do you think we universally love his brand of football.

Sorry to have to inform you but most Premier league teams play a more entertaining brand of football than us.

I've supported Stoke through all those managers and more and terrible as they were for other reasons, I don't recall any of them regularly fielding more defensively balanced teams than Pulis does.

And look where it got them and look where Pulis has got us.

[dozintheseventees]

alster: Portsmouth certainly play a more attack minded game than us as do Burnley and Hull have also been a little more adventurous than us at times. West Ham definitely play more attacking football than us and we've already agreed that Wigan play better football than us.

I wonder, can you spot what links all of these clubs?

A clue........check out the league table.


Edit: On the other hand, Birmingham are every bit as dour as ourselves as are Blackburn..........check the league table!

[alster]

Apr 22, 2010 13:34:59 GMT dozintheseventees said:

alster: Portsmouth certainly play a more attack minded game than us as do Burnley and Hull have also been a little more adventurous than us at times. West Ham definitely play more attacking football than us and we've already agreed that Wigan play better football than us.

I wonder, can you spot what links all of these clubs?

A clue........check out the league table.

Thats a proper bollox argument I could just as easily make the totally opposite argument by saying look at the teams at the top of the table they all play more open attacking football than us but I won't bother because its small minded and irrelevant. I don't know why you bother, we have already agreed that we share the same aspirations for the club. I'm not calling for Pulis to be sacked. I'm just making a point that I don't like his brand of football and I'm not going to come on here kissing his arse and saying I do. Its a means to an end, its effective but its also very often quite unpleasant to watch.

[mikeyb99]

Ah, we've come to the old chestnut again: good football, or good results?

This is a complete red herring. A false choice. The likes of Villa and Chelsea are NOT slightly better versions of what we see on a weekly basis, their mentality is completely different from top to bottom. The way we played against Bolton is not the only way to play football, and not the only way to get results.

Some on here have adopted some kind of inverted arrogance akin to Wenger's 'footballing principles'. They're as entrenched in their belief that the way we currently play is the 'right' way - just like Wenger - and that failure and relegation loom should we dare to change it.

Apr 22, 2010 9:09:51 GMT vestanpance said:

It's an interesting debate.

One of the things that tends to get lost in all this is the fact that Stoke City have accrued something like 15,000 "fairweather" fans since our promotion to the Premier League. One thing is for certain, if we continue along this current path of stifling creativity and atrocious football, they'll start to dwindle, as night follows day.

What fucked me off most about Bolton was that given the fact we are shit to watch (and we are, it's no good pretending otherwise) it would have been nice if Pulis had said "Go on lads, have a fucking go at them. The shackles are off and we are staying up, so go and give them something to cheer about." Instead, we get 10 men and a fucking long throw expert, boredom reigning supreme and the two most talented players on the pitch getting yanked off because Pulis does it every fucking week, regardless.

We're not delusional as a group of fans. We know there's no such thing as "the next level" for Stoke and european dreams are just that, dreams. What is not unreasonable however is a little bit of entertainment on a Saturday afternoon, perhaps mixed in with a few goals. Pulis cannot keep referring back to the lessons he learned with lower league players, not now. Yes Tuncay was petulant but he wants to play, and given he is technically the best player at the club this shouldn't be a problem but it is, it's almost like Pulis is constantly proving who is boss.

Yes, we've come a long way but put aside our unyielding gratitude and remember that football is supposed to be entertaiment as well. I reckon the bare minimum we deserve is when the hard toil is over that Pulis put the dogs of war in the kennels and actually allow us to enjoy being in the Premier League. Otherwise, what's the point?

This is an excellent post by the way, really sums things up for me.

[alster]

Apr 22, 2010 13:45:25 GMT mikeyb99 said:

Ah, we've come to the old chestnut again: good football, or good results?

This is a complete red herring. A false choice. The likes of Villa and Chelsea are NOT slightly better versions of what we see on a weekly basis, their mentality is completely different from top to bottom. The way we played against Bolton is not the only way to play football, and not the only way to get results.

Some on here have adopted some kind of inverted arrogance akin to Wenger's 'footballing principles'. They're as entrenched in their belief that the way we currently play is the 'right' way - just like Wenger - and that failure and relegation loom should we dare to change it.

Apr 22, 2010 9:09:51 GMT vestanpance said:

It's an interesting debate.

One of the things that tends to get lost in all this is the fact that Stoke City have accrued something like 15,000 "fairweather" fans since our promotion to the Premier League. One thing is for certain, if we continue along this current path of stifling creativity and atrocious football, they'll start to dwindle, as night follows day.

What fucked me off most about Bolton was that given the fact we are shit to watch (and we are, it's no good pretending otherwise) it would have been nice if Pulis had said "Go on lads, have a fucking go at them. The shackles are off and we are staying up, so go and give them something to cheer about." Instead, we get 10 men and a fucking long throw expert, boredom reigning supreme and the two most talented players on the pitch getting yanked off because Pulis does it every fucking week, regardless.

We're not delusional as a group of fans. We know there's no such thing as "the next level" for Stoke and european dreams are just that, dreams. What is not unreasonable however is a little bit of entertainment on a Saturday afternoon, perhaps mixed in with a few goals. Pulis cannot keep referring back to the lessons he learned with lower league players, not now. Yes Tuncay was petulant but he wants to play, and given he is technically the best player at the club this shouldn't be a problem but it is, it's almost like Pulis is constantly proving who is boss.

Yes, we've come a long way but put aside our unyielding gratitude and remember that football is supposed to be entertaiment as well. I reckon the bare minimum we deserve is when the hard toil is over that Pulis put the dogs of war in the kennels and actually allow us to enjoy being in the Premier League. Otherwise, what's the point?

This is an excellent post by the way, really sums things up for me.

alas there is none so blind as he who will not see

[sheikhmomo]

Apr 22, 2010 13:04:04 GMT @begovicnumber1 said:

Yes. Hopefully Stoke would be replaced with a team like Swansea, who play a decent brand of football. They certainly look a decent side on Sky.

Yeah 40 goals in 44 games electrifuckingfying.

Is it a prerequisite that all Pulis Hating Wankstains should be a little bit dim

[gamesmaster]

Apr 22, 2010 13:34:59 GMT dozintheseventees said:

alster: Portsmouth certainly play a more attack minded game than us as do Burnley and Hull have also been a little more adventurous than us at times. West Ham definitely play more attacking football than us and we've already agreed that Wigan play better football than us.

I wonder, can you spot what links all of these clubs?

A clue........check out the league table.


Edit: On the other hand, Birmingham are every bit as dour as ourselves as are Blackburn..........check the league table!

And again, spot on!!

[alster]

Apr 22, 2010 13:57:28 GMT gamesmaster said:

Apr 22, 2010 13:34:59 GMT dozintheseventees said:

alster: Portsmouth certainly play a more attack minded game than us as do Burnley and Hull have also been a little more adventurous than us at times. West Ham definitely play more attacking football than us and we've already agreed that Wigan play better football than us.

I wonder, can you spot what links all of these clubs?

A clue........check out the league table.


Edit: On the other hand, Birmingham are every bit as dour as ourselves as are Blackburn..........check the league table!

And again, spot on!!

If you take his penis any deeper I fear that Doz may jizz in your throat.

[gamesmaster]

To spit or swallow though, that is the question!

[alster]

Apr 22, 2010 14:03:07 GMT gamesmaster said:

To spit or swallow though, that is the question!

I think you should swallow.

[dozintheseventees]

alster: You may think my argument is bollocks but it is based in fact and there for all to see (if they really WANT to see). Of course the top teams are all more attacking than us they've got much, much, much better players and much greater resources. I compaired us with those clubs we SHOULD be compaired with but if you want to compair us with Chelsea, Man United, City etc then you should ask yourself just who is talking bollocks here! We are what we are and we are in competion with the clubs I mentioned and so the comparrison in both style and results is a completely fair and valid one and one that we win hands down. We are NOT in compettion with Man United but if you feel that's a fair comparrison well................

[fromafar07]

wow that was a long winded thread !!
i think some people want those players you listed to leave just so we can get better replacements in so we can move up ! do you honestly think we just want to get rid of them and that's that ??

[bayernoatcake]

Yes and I hope we end up in the Conference too! Fucking stupid question!

[tazi]

Apr 21, 2010 22:57:09 GMT nottspotter said:

thankyou Joe.. you have just adequately summed up how much I seethe at the Tuncay negativity. He's a breath of fresh air and we haven't seen technical skill and innovation like his at the brit before! his play making against bolton, spacial awareness and touch on the ball was quality.. and then people are ready to demonise him because he HIT THE FOOKING POST! OH DEAR! we woulda been lucky if Mama had hit that same ball and kept it in the stadium!

nice one pal!

Yes as 25 yards out against Wigan, 1 yard out against Bolton with gaping open nets would indeed suggest he really is quality when it comes to missing the target.

[The Red and White Baron]

Apr 22, 2010 14:07:30 GMT fromafar07 said:

wow that was a long winded thread !!
i think some people want those players you listed to leave just so we can get better replacements in so we can move up ! do you honestly think we just want to get rid of them and that's that ??

Yes! What Fromafar said!

Damn I never thought I would type that.

But he's right. People like Beats and Liam can be replaced with better players. Tuncay, maybe. If we get Rodders in then I consider that a better player, but we'll see.

[mailman44]

Amen, Sir. Couldn't agree more about the slaggin off of flair players. ???

[alster]

Apr 22, 2010 14:05:09 GMT dozintheseventees said:

alster: You may think my argument is bollocks but it is based in fact and there for all to see (if they really WANT to see). Of course the top teams are all more attacking than us they've got much, much, much better players and much greater resources. I compaired us with those clubs we SHOULD be compaired with but if you want to compair us with Chelsea, Man United, City etc then you should ask yourself just who is talking bollocks here! We are what we are and we are in competion with the clubs I mentioned and so the comparrison in both style and results is a completely fair and valid one and one that we win hands down. We are NOT in compettion with Man United but if you feel that's a fair comparrison well................

OK so we are in direct competition with Bolton who were managed by another dour, defensivly minded manager, they sacked him mainly due to the fact that his style of football was so unpopular with supporters. They poached Coyle who has been trying to improve their style of play and they have seen results improve and have not been relegated. This obviously proves that if you try to play a more attacking brand of football you will be less likely to be relegated.



























No actually thats complete bollox as well but its as relevant as your argument. Trying to play better football neither exempts you from nor dooms you to relegation.

[dozintheseventees]

Tazi: Think you meant Hull mate! (sorry)

[sufolkstokie]

Last season we didnt play anyone off the park at all. This season we have albeit not for 90mins. But we blew away Fulham first half, Wolves and yes even Bolton. We also played bloody brilliant away at Villa

It is a 5 year plan and we are progressing and havent been dicked this year at so many grounds like last year.

TP has stated we need three years and there is progress this year - maybe not quick enough for some.

[ColonelMustard]

The only people the thread title question realistically applies to are Coates and/ or Pulis. The stable relationship between them would be hard to replace.

[dozintheseventees]

alster: Sorry mate, I respect your opinions but I simply disagree. Bolton fans have watched boring, negative, physical, in-your-face football for many years now without the slightest complaint. Why? Because it was successful for them under Fat Sam. They hated Megson simply because they ceased to be successful and not because the football was crap. It had always been crap but it seems so much crapper when you're losing every week. Had they been winning, Megson would have been accepted there just fine. I compaired us with most of the teams from about 10th down in the Premier League which surely you can accept, is a fair comparrison. I agree that drab football doesn't guarantees success (ala BOLTON) but entertaining football doesn't guarantee failure (ala FULHAM). But looking at the clubs aropund and below us it's fair to look at both style of play and what that has done in terms of points/league position and that's all I did. The fact is teams like ourselves/Birmingham/Blackburn have been in little or no danger of relegation this season whilst those who are perceived to play a more open style have struggled and three of them will be relegated. Those are inescapable facts. You might say, well look at those above us and they play better football. Indeed they do but they are (largely) much bigger clubs who can attract much better players and most of them, we are not in direct competition with, becasue they are on a different level to us at this point. Even within their own level, Chelsea haven't be a free flowing football team for two seasons now and Manchester United haven't exactly been terrific entertainment this season. Without Rooney I think they would have struggled to qualify for the Champions League and they have massive resources. Yes they have a more expansive out;look on football than us but that's because they can employ the right players. We are on a totally different planet and we COULD set out to play a more open game but then that's why I pointed out those (on our level) that do. So you cannot simply ignore it and say it's irrelevant, because it clearly isn't. We do what gets us results and brings us success. If and when it doesn't Pulis will be as popular as Megson was at Bolton because football fans want their team to win.

[march4]

"There is a growing voice on this messageboard that wants the likes of Tuncay, Lawrence, Beattie and Kitson fucked off.

Just what is the point of selling all our best players"

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

If they are our best players, we are in serious trouble.

[boweryboy]

joe,...good post,truth is Pulis hasn't a clue what to do or how to handle players with quality even though he talks about bringing more in ,he seems to me tobe in someway threatened by them and has to have them on the bench for a while letting them just play bit parts untill he turns their attacking qualites into defenceive one.
Look how he treated Lawrence and Whelan with there great performances with Ireland but then they had to spend weeks on the bench becaue in his mind they were tired or mentally not right how pathetic,actually they were buzzing and confident and wanted to play!

[boweryboy]

tazi-1 yard miss you really need to go to spec savers!

[dozintheseventees]

Good debate fellas but there's a couple of fritters down at the Milehouse Chippy with my name on em. Look forward to rejoining the banter on about page 20 tomorrow. ;D

[alster]

Apr 22, 2010 15:31:37 GMT dozintheseventees said:

alster: Sorry mate, I respect your opinions but I simply disagree. Bolton fans have watched boring, negative, physical, in-your-face football for many years now without the slightest complaint. Why? Because it was successful for them under Fat Sam. They hated Megson simply because they ceased to be successful and not because the football was crap. It had always been crap but it seems so much crapper when you're losing every week. Had they been winning, Megson would have been accepted there just fine. I compaired us with most of the teams from about 10th down in the Premier League which surely you can accept, is a fair comparrison. I agree that drab football doesn't guarantees success (ala BOLTON) but entertaining football doesn't guarantee failure (ala FULHAM). But looking at the clubs aropund and below us it's fair to look at both style of play and what that has done in terms of points/league position and that's all I did. The fact is teams like ourselves/Birmingham/Blackburn have been in little or no danger of relegation this season whilst those who are perceived to play a more open style have struggled and three of them will be relegated. Those are inescapable facts. You might say, well look at those above us and they play better football. Indeed they do but they are (largely) much bigger clubs who can attract much better players and most of them, we are not in direct competition with, becasue they are on a different level to us at this point. Even within their own level, Chelsea haven't be a free flowing football team for two seasons now and Manchester United haven't exactly been terrific entertainment this season. Without Rooney I think they would have struggled to qualify for the Champions League and they have massive resources. Yes they have a more expansive out;look on football than us but that's because they can employ the right players. We are on a totally different planet and we COULD set out to play a more open game but then that's why I pointed out those (on our level) that do. So you cannot simply ignore it and say it's irrelevant, because it clearly isn't. We do what gets us results and brings us success. If and when it doesn't Pulis will be as popular as Megson was at Bolton because football fans want their team to win.

I think you will find that Megson performed a minor miracle keeping them up in his first season after taking over from Sammy Lee with them rooted to the bottom but the fans still hated him because his football is boring (incidentally I think he's slightly less negative than Pulis). Big Sam's Bolton whilst still being a physical team had a smattering of flair in the form of Ocotcha, djorkaeff, Gudjohnson (excuse spelling) and that blond Scandanavian midfielder who's name I can't remember. Pulis could actually use that team as a yardstick becuse I think they were about as good as a non top six team can hope to be.