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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 17:08:38 GMT
Cases and deaths pretty similar to yesterdays announcement. The good thing stat is last week, Tuesday and Wednesday totalled 30 deaths, this week 13. That was off the back of a bank holiday weekend though when deaths would be higher midweek than normal. The deaths aren't higher than usual, just the lazy bureucrat's way of counting.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 17:03:58 GMT
Number of people on NHS waiting list has jumped up to 5.12 million in England alone That's just under 9.5% of the population waiting for treatment in England. Nationalized medicine. In the US, surgeons are begging for business.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 17:00:56 GMT
How on earth has it taken this long!? Should slash the numbers to their true levels.. I know in the US, hospitals were allowed additional reimbursement for each Covid case they treated. Suddenly every hospitalization became a Covid case.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 16:56:53 GMT
Ah! Just seen this. Are they still available?
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 16:48:43 GMT
I don't know but how good does this one look? The quality is high, there is discernible evidence of tailoring, the stripes are red not the rather effete pink that has been served up more recently! In short we looked like we meant business, and we did! Fuller would make any kit look good! Please, Please, Please, let Tyrese become our new Ric!
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 16:24:15 GMT
Reminds me of a song ... "There's a hole in my bucket, dear Lisa, dear Lisa ..." I firmly believe that there is no place for displays of support for their own personal passions/causes/beliefs by professional performers when they are on "stage" and about to perform, during the performance, or before leaving the "stage" after the performance. They are paid to perform not lecture me on morality. The nazi salute comparison is no more ludicrous than using the BLM adopted and popularized "taking the knee". I mean it is, because literally nobody is doing the Nazi salute thing and nobody would do it. That is bound inextricably with one connotation, this by your own admission already had several before the footballers started doing it. If your 'personal passion' is 'I'd like people to stop being racist', I think there probably is a place for that. I also suspect you'd fucking hate Hamilton. Interesting stance on 'performance' as well, where do things like protest songs and allegorical films and plays come into that? I'm tired of going round in circles so this will be my last response - clearly we differ in opinion and are both starting to repeat ourselves. 1. The Bellamy salute (or nazi salute) has been used in many different connotations before the nazi's. The fact the nazi's adopted it has made it offensive to most people specifically because of the atrocities committed by them. It is believed to have been used as early as ancient Roman times, but was definitely in use in the 1890's. Read my earlier posts and you'll see that I mentioned "..unless it's specifically part of the performance.." Again, what makes anti-racism any more important than anti-abortion (kills 42 Million every year), pro-woman's rights, or the numerous other causes I've already mentioned. I don't give a flying toot if James McClean is a card carry member of the "X" Army, if Tyrese Campbell is an initiated member of the "Y" Panthers or if Charlie Adam was secretly "Diablo" of the WWE. They are there to play football, and the audience are paying them handsomely to do that. They are not there to subject the audience to gestures supporting their favorite cause of the week. Don't know and don't care who "Hamilton" is. Thanks for the chat, and see you on another thread where we will hopefully agree with each other that Stoke City is by far the best team the world has ever seen!
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 14:35:44 GMT
"taking the knee" has been tainted by it's association with an organization that promotes violence, hatred and racism. It would be something like expecting people to accept the Nazi salute as a gesture of support for anti-genocide. What significance does "taking the knee" have as a symbol of anti-racism other than Kaepernick and BLM? And before you mention MLK, may I point out that he knelt in prayer to God, not as a vacant symbol of protest against, or support for, a particular cause. All of those points have been discussed in the thread already and the Nazi salute comparison is ludicrous. At this point people can either accept what the players themselves have asked and respect their wishes, or they can choose to ignore them and insist on making the connection they want to in order to boo it. Reminds me of a song ... "There's a hole in my bucket, dear Lisa, dear Lisa ..." I firmly believe that there is no place for displays of support for their own personal passions/causes/beliefs by professional performers when they are on "stage" and about to perform, during the performance, or before leaving the "stage" after the performance. They are paid to perform not lecture me on morality. The nazi salute comparison is no more ludicrous than using the BLM adopted and popularized "taking the knee".
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 14:18:00 GMT
what about white victims of racism in this country? Look at the abuse Europeans living here face, the rise in hate crimes since Brexit. Travellers, they are white and probably the most victimised group of people in the country. Should we exclude them from any anti-racism initiative because of the colour of their skin? Thats whats happening with kneeling for black lives matter. Undliuted whataboutery. I'm bang up for any stance against racism from any of those groups. By all means highlight it and efforts to fight against it. I'm fairly confident there are ways of doing that without booing this one. "taking the knee" has been tainted by it's association with an organization that promotes violence, hatred and racism. It would be something like expecting people to accept the Nazi salute as a gesture of support for anti-genocide. What significance does "taking the knee" have as a symbol of anti-racism other than Kaepernick and BLM? And before you mention MLK, may I point out that he knelt in prayer to God, not as a vacant symbol of protest against, or support for, a particular cause.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 13:59:47 GMT
To say it's not for white people to dictate what forms anti-racist gestures should take is BS! Just look at how the English have treated the Irish, Welsh and Scots for a start. But to suggest that Racism stems only from white people is absolute nonsense. Ever been to India? Iran? Korea? China? USA? Not to mention the countries I previously listed. This discussion is not about whether Racism is acceptable in any format - It is not. This discussion is about adopting the gesture recently popularized by an organization that promotes violence, hatred and racism. I find that repulsive and divisive and clearly so do a lot of people. Is it the white victims of racism in Uganda who are booing the kneeling then? If not, it’s not really relevant to these specific circumstances is it? Hopefully in the countries you refer to there are initiatives and campaigns to tackle the problems with racism there as well. You did not specify that "It's not for white people in UK", did you? Which takes us back to "taking the knee" would not be done by a single sportsman if it had not been popularized as a form of protest by Kaepernick and run with by BLM. For people to say "yes, I know we are copying BLM and using "taking the knee" for the same reasons that BLM purport to use it, but it is dissociated from BLM when I do it" is an absolutely ridiculous position. It is divisive and unless the objective is to cause violent unrest (as in USA), it would be better to beef up current widely accepted mechanisms to publicize the issues and beef up laws and penalties to enforce those laws. In any event, we agree bigotry, including racism has no legitimate place in society. We disagree on the utilization of a divisive gesture to try and show support for anti-racism.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 13:47:27 GMT
Yes, I strongly recommend you read them too. Oh,C'mon, BLM is not engaged in right actions!! I’m not talking about BLM though, I’m talking about the players’ gesture, which they’ve dissociated from it. There are some belters in there to be fair, like ‘it’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God’. Sounds pretty Marxist to me that! Between that, the whole love and forgiveness angle and anti-capitalist stuff like chucking the moneylenders out of the temple, are you sure Jesus is your cup of tea? Start a thread on "Does God exist?" and we can discuss.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 1:53:40 GMT
That's a silly thing to say, and I think you've totally misread, or misunderstand the quote. Saying that "it's not for white people to dictate what forms anti-racist gestures should take" is basically an anti-racist statement, not a racist statement, clear as daylight. It in no way implies that any one group of people don't experience racism either. The poster has not said that white people cannot discuss or think about racism, i.e. discussing and dictating are entirely two different things. The poster can elaborate on their take, but that is my interpretation, but it's fundamentally a very different conclusion. Yeah, he knows it's nonsense and divorced it completely from the context. To say it's not for white people to dictate what forms anti-racist gestures should take is BS! Just look at how the English have treated the Irish, Welsh and Scots for a start. But to suggest that Racism stems only from white people is absolute nonsense. Ever been to India? Iran? Korea? China? USA? Not to mention the countries I previously listed. This discussion is not about whether Racism is acceptable in any format - It is not. This discussion is about adopting the gesture recently popularized by an organization that promotes violence, hatred and racism. I find that repulsive and divisive and clearly so do a lot of people.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 1:40:59 GMT
Yeah yeah, anyone with a problem with it is hateful and ignorant, moronically conforming to the instructions of the Daily Mail. And you want to lecture people about listening. If the Daily Mail line is what you take from that..then that would prove a problem, exposes a defensive element, I'm really not interested in listening to the voices that attack the knee, those people (and im not saying that you are part of that group) will be soon forgotten, they will soon be irrelevant, it is sad that this is even an issue but it is out there due to the idiots that boo this gesture even with the knowledge that it isn't political, this is about inclusivity about colour in society. How exactly is copy Kaepernick and BLM while causing division amongst rational people about inclusivity about colour? I don't see anyone protesting the Kick it Out program, why is this different? I guarantee you, "taking the knee" will be the thing that slides into obscurity. Perhaps when you're calling people idiots even though you have never met and know next to nothing about them, you'll come to the realization that it's quite an idiotic conclusion.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 1:34:36 GMT
In summary: We agree - Racism and in fact all bigotry needs to be stamped out. We disagree - People should not expect to be able to "signal" their own beliefs (whatever they may be) wherever they feel like it without consequences. Read the verse - very little tolerance and understanding when dealing with right and wrong actions. What about all the other verses? I thought forgiveness was one of the central tenets? I personally wouldn't file anti-racism in the 'wrong actions' cabinet, but each to their own. Yes, I strongly recommend you read them too. Oh,C'mon, BLM is not engaged in right actions!!
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 23:59:17 GMT
But you yourself point out there are black people who disagree with it. In fact even a potential black Stoke player disagrees with it. I understand you think it's a good thing, I personally think it's divisive and there are better ways to tackle the problem. The knee won't tackle deep rooted racism (when half the people who say or do racist things swear blind they haven't got a racist bone in their body, much like people who lack empathy can't understand what all the fuss is about when not saying sorry), it's just a gesture. What do you suggest will help tackle black footballer getting racist abuse on social media? Exactly, it's just a gesture, one that's closely associated with a corrupt organization that has incited violence and racism. Why not do something better, as in the quoted post from Mickey the Maestro above.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 23:56:56 GMT
People do disagree on these things. I don't find taking the knee at all wrong. And the fact that those applauding taking the knee outnumbered those doing the booing, suggests that those booing don't have a huge amount of support. If you can come up with a suggestion around which we can all unite please do so - we'll all be grateful. But I won't hold my breath. Given that most people alive can't remember the last time when a UK government obtained the support of 50% or more of those entitled to vote in a UK election - getting unanimous approval of ANYTHING isn't as easy as you seem to think. Fair enough. We'll just have to disagree. Bored of saying it so this is my last time. Many other options to promote this other than knee bending which for whatever reason is causing great strife and risks becoming dangerous. Strife that could be avoided, if for example, since you ask, you involved local schools at every home game to bring a KIO flag out and have a moment of silence with the players. Kids learn, creates a discussion at school and with kids on the pitch I would like to think the only cretins that would then boo would be genuine racists. Now tell me that is a worse suggestion than carrying on with divisive knee bending and I know you are being disingenuous and are more interested in getting up peoples noses. Just quoting for Skip's ease of reference.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 21:54:42 GMT
I really don't think it's for white people to dictate what forms anti-racist gestures should take. What the heck!! So White people don't experience racism??? Good Grief! Try living in places like Zambia, Zimbabwe, Uganda, Nigeria and then come on here and tell me that white people are not allowed to think/talk about how racism (and all bigotry) should be stamped out once and for all. That is probably the most racist thing I've seen on this thread.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 21:47:27 GMT
Why WHITE football fan? Isn't that being a bit racist? Are other races not allowed to disagree with you? What about a Chinese Irish Fan? Would he/she not be entitled to applaud McClean's stance? If any black Stoke City fan on here who is against England taking the knee in the Euros, I'm all ears. However, I suspect that very nearly all if not every one of those picking fault with the gesture are, <drumroll> white. But you yourself point out there are black people who disagree with it. In fact even a potential black Stoke player disagrees with it. I understand you think it's a good thing, I personally think it's divisive and there are better ways to tackle the problem.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 21:41:52 GMT
Are you saying that a different standard should apply for one set of people who work in glamorous jobs compared to the vast majority who live out an everyday grind? I agree, sport's not like any other job, and that's precisely the point. Performers are not there because of their great intelligence but rather they have been uniquely blessed with some particular talent/ability. They are massively paid for performing that talent in front of an audience of thousands who pay them to perform. The audience does not pay them to moralize or display their passion for a particular cause. Politics, posturing and moralizing do not belong in a performance unless it is specifically part of the show. As far as booing, etc, I believe you yourself have weighed in on reserving the right to boo players who underperform or celebrate a goal in a fashion you don't agree with (think of McClean cupping his ear to Stoke fans when just about everyone in the stadium was booing the team). How do you think that makes them feel? I try not to boo people (and in fact never do), but when people align themselves with an organization that fosters bigotry (BLM), I reserve the right to state my opinion. As far as your view of Christian values; if you think Christians are supposed to be milquetoast, I suggest you read Mark 11: 15-17 to get a better perspective. I don't mean that, no. I mean the circumstances and pressures and context are entirely different. Also, it's not that they've just been 'blessed' with a talent, they work hard and are incredibly dedicated and spend years honing their abilites and making sacrifices to get to the level they're at. The 'posturing' you're referring to in this instance is one that racism should not be tolerated. I can't recall ever advocating booing a player who underperforms and I actually think the opposite regarding the ear-cupping - fans who dish it out should be prepared to cop it back sometimes. I agree the crowd has a right to voice its displeasure at a slovenly performance. There's an absolute world of difference between that and booing their stand against racism, an evil they'll have been affected by all their lives in some cases. Never said anything about being 'milquetoast', just following the basic guiding principles of Christianity, which I dimly recall from my own Catholic upbringing being tolerance and understanding. In summary: We agree - Racism and in fact all bigotry needs to be stamped out. We disagree - People should not expect to be able to "signal" their own beliefs (whatever they may be) wherever they feel like it without consequences. Read the verse - very little tolerance and understanding when dealing with right and wrong actions.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 21:24:37 GMT
Are you saying that a different standard should apply for one set of people who work in glamorous jobs compared to the vast majority who live out an everyday grind? I agree, sport's not like any other job, and that's precisely the point. Performers are not there because of their great intelligence but rather they have been uniquely blessed with some particular talent/ability. They are massively paid for performing that talent in front of an audience of thousands who pay them to perform. The audience does not pay them to moralize or display their passion for a particular cause. Politics, posturing and moralizing do not belong in a performance unless it is specifically part of the show. As far as booing, etc, I believe you yourself have weighed in on reserving the right to boo players who underperform or celebrate a goal in a fashion you don't agree with (think of McClean cupping his ear to Stoke fans when just about everyone in the stadium was booing the team). How do you think that makes them feel? I try not to boo people (and in fact never do), but when people align themselves with an organization that fosters bigotry (BLM), I reserve the right to state my opinion. As far as your view of Christian values; if you think Christians are supposed to be milquetoast, I suggest you read Mark 11: 15-17 to get a better perspective. What about the wearing of the poppy? Should we stop that too? Isn't that political? Taking the knee is no more aligning with BLM than waving the flag of St George is aligning with the BNP It's a simple gesture against racism, that's it, no more no less. At the end of the day you can't entirely separate politics from sport as politics is part of life. Personally, I don't wear a poppy, but it's my understanding that it is an international gesture arranged on a specific day to pay respect to the soldiers who have paid with their lives so we can have the freedom to participate in these kinds of discussions. I say again, regardless of how many pictures of an ordained minister praying on his knee (MLK) are posted, NO ONE would currently be "taking a knee" if it had not been done as a mark of disrespect for the US during the US National Anthem. It has been largely popularized by BLM who are an organization that promotes racism and whose leaders have been proven to be profiteering out of this issue. As many have said on here already, Bring out the KIO banner and have a moments silence by all means. Few could/would argue against that, but to have a divisive gesture like this done by some players and not others, applauded by some fans and booed by others, defeats the purpose doesn't it?
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 21:13:09 GMT
Random white football fan: "Taking the knee is counterproductive at best and virtue signalling at worst." Same random: "How dare McLean not wear a poppy." Same random: "I've found a black footballer who disagrees with the knee." Same random - unable to understand why scores of black and white footballers want to continue with the gesture until racism is stamped out of football and politics taken out of the game. Why WHITE football fan? Isn't that being a bit racist? Are other races not allowed to disagree with you? What about a Chinese Irish Fan? Would he/she not be entitled to applaud McClean's stance?
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 21:06:06 GMT
Of course everyone's thoughts matter. They are welcome to "take the knee" or do something far more meaningful like putting their money to help those most affected - that's not the question. The question is, what would happen if I turned up at a client's office to do a presentation and once everyone is assembled in the room I "take the knee" in protest/empathy/whatever for all the poor underpaid employees in the world? Do what you want to do - in private. When you're on stage, be a professional and do your job. On your last point, no one would be "taking the knee" if it were not for Kaepernick and ultimately BLM. I can say that showing you the finger is a mark of my high esteem for you and if you willfully refuse to dissociate the gesture from the way it's been used in the past, then you are offensive to me. Those are ludicrous examples though aren't they? Sport isn't the same as other jobs and you know that. The fact that there's an audience is the point. Equally, the finger's main connotation is negative and there's no kind of alternative discourse around it in the same way. I get totally why some might not agree, I just don't understand at all the compulsion to boo, to vocalise one's contempt for the players and to dismiss out of hand their feelings on something many of them will have encountered throughout their lives and continue to experience. Again, these attitudes don't massively chime with Christianity as far as I can make out... Are you saying that a different standard should apply for one set of people who work in glamorous jobs compared to the vast majority who live out an everyday grind? I agree, sport's not like any other job, and that's precisely the point. Performers are not there because of their great intelligence but rather they have been uniquely blessed with some particular talent/ability. They are massively paid for performing that talent in front of an audience of thousands who pay them to perform. The audience does not pay them to moralize or display their passion for a particular cause. Politics, posturing and moralizing do not belong in a performance unless it is specifically part of the show. As far as booing, etc, I believe you yourself have weighed in on reserving the right to boo players who underperform or celebrate a goal in a fashion you don't agree with (think of McClean cupping his ear to Stoke fans when just about everyone in the stadium was booing the team). How do you think that makes them feel? I try not to boo people (and in fact never do), but when people align themselves with an organization that fosters bigotry (BLM), I reserve the right to state my opinion. As far as your view of Christian values; if you think Christians are supposed to be milquetoast, I suggest you read Mark 11: 15-17 to get a better perspective.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 19:26:41 GMT
Of Course, but, being imperfect as we all are, I have more empathy for all those trying to solve the problem (including police regardless of skin colour), than for criminals (regardless of skin colour) who are hurt as a direct result of their own actions or for organizations who foster racism while profiteering off the very people they purport to be standing up for. As for "taking a knee", if they believe this is showing empathy, let them a) do it in private, and B) send money to those that really do help resolve the issues. It’s not that they believe it’s showing empathy, it’s more about us showing empathy with those affected, like the footballers who receive sickening racist abuse on social media. A number of those players have spoken about what the gesture means to them and what it represents to them. To me, it’s pretty offensive to them to decide that their thoughts on the issue don’t matter because people are wilfully refusing to dissociate the gesture from BLM. Of course everyone's thoughts matter. They are welcome to "take the knee" or do something far more meaningful like putting their money to help those most affected - that's not the question. The question is, what would happen if I turned up at a client's office to do a presentation and once everyone is assembled in the room I "take the knee" in protest/empathy/whatever for all the poor underpaid employees in the world? Do what you want to do - in private. When you're on stage, be a professional and do your job. On your last point, no one would be "taking the knee" if it were not for Kaepernick and ultimately BLM. I can say that showing you the finger is a mark of my high esteem for you and if you willfully refuse to dissociate the gesture from the way it's been used in the past, then you are offensive to me.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 17:30:07 GMT
The fact that you can't tell the difference between singing a country's national anthem or an official remembrance of the many millions of people who fought and died for our freedom and a form of protest that was started by an American gridiron player (primarily as a publicity stunt) tells me a lot. I am a Christian. Christians have been (and still are being) persecuted and killed throughout the ages and all over the world. I do not think we should have all the players kneeling and blessing themselves before each game. There are avenues to address legitimate issues, but for people to expect different treatment simply due to the color of skin they were born with is inherently racist. I do not support displays/behaviors of bigotry of any kind including an indication of support for an organization whose very name "Black Lives Matter" is racist in that it implies that lives of other groups don't matter. How about we demand that all players make a motion as if rocking a baby before each game to indicate support for the 42 Million unborn children that are killed every year? Yes, a ludicrous suggestion, but no more ludicrous than thinking it is acceptable to force a show of support on all of us for the less than 150 unarmed black people killed each year by police in the USA. As a Christian, do you think 'empathy' is something that might be worth a bash? Of Course, but, being imperfect as we all are, I have more empathy for all those trying to solve the problem (including police regardless of skin colour), than for criminals (regardless of skin colour) who are hurt as a direct result of their own actions or for organizations who foster racism while profiteering off the very people they purport to be standing up for. As for "taking a knee", if they believe this is showing empathy, let them a) do it in private, and B) send money to those that really do help resolve the issues.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 17:25:10 GMT
Quote some statistics please. Who is murdering who simply due to their skin colour and how many of them are being murdered?In Nazi Germany, it was a legal right to kill Jews. Did that make it right? The very fact that it is a right that someone can kill a living being, (for convenience in over 92% of cases), is surely a bigger human rights violation than police killing a person who is resisting arrest? Does it actually matter how many people are murdered because of their skin colour? Is there some magic figure which has to be reached before we condemn it. Racism exists and is common. Racism is wrong. Racist murders happen. That is enough for me to condemn it - I really can't understand the logic of anyone needing to know the statistics before they protest about it. My partner for 7 years was Anglo Indian. She actually looked like a Caucasian who had just come back from a holiday in the sun. But her mother was clearly Indian and the abuse we heard on a regular basis when we were in public with her was sickening. I don't need to know any statistics of how many like her were murdered because of their skin colour to know that racism in all its forms is vile and needs to be condemned and, if possible, stamped out. I agree 100% without reservation and wholeheartedly support stamping out any form of bigotry. However, Skip's flippant comment was clearly not made in that vein. To pretend that the problem is white cops killing innocent black men simply because of their skin colour is disingenuous in the extreme. In my opinion, BLM is actually fostering racism and anybody or thing who willingly aligns themselves with that movement is aligning with an organization that promotes racism. In any situation, I firmly believe you weigh the individual based on the actions of that individual not on their skin colour, religion, wealth, etc. Vilifying neanderthals who think it's OK to hurt or even "just" cause discomfort/embarrassment to someone else simply because of their skin colour - I'm all for that. Trying to lay a guilt trip on someone simply because of the colour of their skin - that's just racist.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 15:12:56 GMT
Yes there is, it's really easy in fact. They plaster “Black Lives Matter” across the screens and stands. Have you any idea how much money that extremist organisation has made off the back of stuff like this? And to the people concerned about that association, the political goals of BLM, the gratuitous importing of American cultural memes into the UK, the characterisation of UK society as inherently and irredeemably racist, the aggravation of race division and the regressive re-racialisation of culture and politics at a time when much progress had been made, your response is “just ignore it, and if you don’t, you’re a racist”? Despite my objections I’d never have dreamed of booing the knee previously - I’m not much of a boo-er, it’s largely unconstructive and I wouldn’t want the players to receive an unintended hostile message - but if the kind of attitudes displayed by Lineker and your good self here persist, they might make it impossible not to at least consider for me. This is an oft-oversimplified issue but there are important principles at stake here. The bottom-line is that political statements by "performers" have no place before, during, or after the "performance". The audience has paid and is attending to see the performance not some "performer", (whose only claim to fame is to be extremely blessed with a particular skill), impose his/her worldview on the audience. There are other channels to do that. And anyone who doesn't believe that, watch the ratings/attendance of those events that choose to adopt one or other cause. Unless someone can devise a universal gesture for peace (wouldn't that offend Warmongers?), hope (what about offending pessimists?) and love (C'mon all you haters, give a big boo!), anything is going to be seen as divisive in some way.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 14:58:08 GMT
How about we demand that all players make a motion as if rocking a baby before each game to indicate support for the 42 Million unborn children that are killed every year? Yes, a ludicrous suggestion, but no more ludicrous than thinking it is acceptable to force a show of support on all of us for the less than 150 unarmed black people killed each year by police in the USA. Abortion is a legal right for women. Murdering black people for being black is not. Aaaanyway, back to the England manager's statement... Quote some statistics please. Who is murdering who simply due to their skin colour and how many of them are being murdered? In Nazi Germany, it was a legal right to kill Jews. Did that make it right? The very fact that it is a right that someone can kill a living being, (for convenience in over 92% of cases), is surely a bigger human rights violation than police killing a person who is resisting arrest?
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 14:46:35 GMT
Why don't all (clubs/players/TV/msm etc) simply make significant efforts to display flags, on tracksuit tops, arm bands, TV banner lines etc etc with the existing message shown below. Remove the divisive use of taking the knee. Which I don't believe in so I must be a racist View AttachmentAs the photograph of Martin Luther King above shows, taking the knee has a very long pedigree. If I were black, or if as a white sportsman I wanted to show solidarity with my black team mates, I think I'd probably be thinking that if it was good enough for MLK then it is good enough for me. The fact that taking the knee is endorsed by Black Lives Matter (of whom some people disapprove) really means bugger all in the grand scheme of things. The Pope and just about every single ordained minister of every Christian denomination kneels every single day. Does this mean that they are kneeling as a form of protest. MLK (an ordained minister) did not kneel as a form of protest during the playing of the National Anthem, he knelt, along with hundreds of others in prayer. His teachings and philosophy are almost diametrically opposite to those of the BLM movement. As passionate as people are about this topic, there are other groups who are equally passionate about religious persecution, the killing of unborn lives, gay rights, woman's rights, Irish independence, restitution of Jewish property, restitution of Palestinian property, etc, etc, etc. I for one fully support swift and decisive action against any abuse by one group against another, but am vehemently opposed to someone (who I ultimately pay their over-inflated salaries) imposing their own particular cause on me.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 14:34:12 GMT
“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,” Kaepernick told NFL Media. Compared to MLK kneeling with others in prayer (not during the national anthem). Huge difference. One is an appeal to God, the other a form of protest. The current "take a knee" action has nothing to do with the fact that an ordained minister knelt in prayer. In 1965, civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. took a knee during a march in Selma, Ala. More than 50 years later, the photo has emerged with renewed meaning amid protests by National Football League (NFL) players. Like I said, he did not do it as an act of defiance during the National Anthem. He was praying to God. The fact he did so on his knee is an act of reverence to God not an act of defiance to the country he loved. If you study his teachings, writings and talks, you will see the messages contained in them is the very antithesis of the core of the current bunch. As this one statement of fact (MLK knelt while praying for peace and equality) is the only thing you responded to, I assume you are in agreement with my other points.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 12:52:46 GMT
If you think anyone who has an issue with bending the knee whilst being aware of the context of how this all began is a racist then you are naïve in the extreme. There are other ways of doing this that really would expose who the racists are. All anti racists would win then. But yeah carry on. Proactive initiatives then please. <inserts photographic evidence of Martin Luther King taking the knee months before he was killed by a racist> p.s. I like the Holloway Road. “I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,” Kaepernick told NFL Media. Compared to MLK kneeling with others in prayer (not during the national anthem). Huge difference. One is an appeal to God, the other a form of protest. The current "take a knee" action has nothing to do with the fact that an ordained minister knelt in prayer.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 9, 2021 12:42:41 GMT
Well said! For heavens sake, football is football! I don't give a flying toot if James McClean has x political view, if Tyrese Campbell supports y movement or if Charlie Adam is a secret WWE fan! I don't expect to have religion, politics, race, nationality or Covid stuffed down my throat when I want to be entertained. Absolutely, any form of bigotry and abuse is unacceptable, and anyone engaging in such behaviour needs to have stiff consequences that are swiftly and consistently applied regardless of the ethnicity, nationality, political leaning, religion, age. sex or whatever grouping is performing the abuse. But give me a break! In what world is it ok for people who have spent huge amounts to watch a game, movie, show, educational offering or whatever to be subjected to a display of the performers currently held beliefs? In most cases they happen to be blessed with a particular talent/skill but not with exceptional intelligence (and even if they were, they still aren't in the business of unsolicited evangelizing of their own beliefs), and or wide ranging experience. So you want us to stop singing the national anthem at England games and stop the minutes silence at the fixture closest to rememberance day? I don't and I think football would be worse if all politics was removed. The fact that you can't tell the difference between singing a country's national anthem or an official remembrance of the many millions of people who fought and died for our freedom and a form of protest that was started by an American gridiron player (primarily as a publicity stunt) tells me a lot. I am a Christian. Christians have been (and still are being) persecuted and killed throughout the ages and all over the world. I do not think we should have all the players kneeling and blessing themselves before each game. There are avenues to address legitimate issues, but for people to expect different treatment simply due to the color of skin they were born with is inherently racist. I do not support displays/behaviors of bigotry of any kind including an indication of support for an organization whose very name "Black Lives Matter" is racist in that it implies that lives of other groups don't matter. How about we demand that all players make a motion as if rocking a baby before each game to indicate support for the 42 Million unborn children that are killed every year? Yes, a ludicrous suggestion, but no more ludicrous than thinking it is acceptable to force a show of support on all of us for the less than 150 unarmed black people killed each year by police in the USA.
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