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Post by GoBoks on Jun 13, 2021 19:42:19 GMT
But that is your opinion Dave and we're all entitled to one, whatever you may think. Maybe if you weren't so far up your own backside, you wouldn't get heckled so much. Honestly, I think Dave's statement suggests he's attempted to understand both perspectives here, and has come to the conclusion that racism is not equitable, it's not empathic, and is detrimental towards our better, future global society -where everyone and everything that happens to everyone influences us all. You sound like you are speaking from a priveledged position of power, which you are, and have not even attempted to understand the cultural or historical context of your attitudes and values. I think that actually renders your opinion invalid in the context of scientific relevance, in addition to being harmful to so so many individuals. I mean, opinions are only acceptable if they do not harm others. That's called moral understanding. The lack of it in disagreement with what Dave said is absolutely cause for concern. Particularly if such a harmful opinion were to be somehow validated and spread. The lack of perspective, critical thinking, and knowledge of historical and cultural context is staggering. You have the right to have an opinion, but not to harm others. Your opinion in this instance has and will cause harm. It's certainly not acceptable, and your opinion is certainly not justified. Racism, discrimination, and inequalities should not be tolerated. At the very least try to understand and acknowledge they exist, are harmful, and that we need to change the way we perceive things and act as a society with a moral responsibility to self reflect. Wow! No one on this thread has even once made even the slightest suggestion that racism or any discrimination is OK. It is not! However, I don't have to be a racist to believe that this "future global society" is an absolute abomination and something which I find discriminatory in the extreme. For millennia, Egyptian, Chinese, African, Indian, etc people have lived with pride in the accomplishments of their distinct and different cultures. To assume that we should throw all that out the window and adopt one global society where everyone thinks and is the same is extremely arrogant, condescending and offensive. You then go on to assume that the poster is "...speaking from a priveledged (sic) position of power...". What the heck do you know about the poster - or me for that matter? Because of this assumption you state that our opinion is invalid and unscientific. Do you even understand the words you are typing or just selecting random "big" words from a dictionary? Give one shred of evidence that the poster's opinion is harmful to others. And then to suggest that it's a cause of concern if that opinion is validated and spread to others. You do know what "Validated" means, don't you? - "check or prove the validity or accuracy of (something)." So if the poster's opinion is validated (found to be valid and accurate) your next action is to try and stop the spread of that valid opinion? You do know what that is called, don't you? - Censorship, a favorite tool of totalitarians. You have harped on in several posts about "critical thinking", but clearly don't apply it at all. I suggest that you take a step back and look at what you have posted - if that's not bigotry in action, I don't know what is. Everyone on here has been discussing the England player's decision to make a gesture and the fan's response to it along with what alternatives could be done. You jump in and accuse anyone that disagrees with your worldview of being racist, lacking perspective, privileged power mongers, trying to harm others, scientifically invalid (i still don't understand how you get that) and unacceptable. Show me one instance, not only on this thread but any thread that has ever been on the Oatcake where someone has said "Racism is acceptable". You won't find it, because each and everyone of us agrees that discrimination in any form is not acceptable. However, you push the false narrative that we refuse to acknowledge that discrimination exists. I'll leave you to think over a quote from two of my heroes, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela. Both great men and I believe both are saints. “Forgiveness is not an occasional act, it is a constant attitude.” ― Martin Luther King Jr. “Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies.” ― Nelson Mandela I suggest instead of angry rhetoric about the past, we look forwards to how we can treat each other with dignity and respect day after day - and it is not by insulting each other on a message board. And for that reason, because I am falling into the same trap, I am quitting this thread. Have a great life.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 13, 2021 18:54:28 GMT
Stunning bit of racism in the Guardian www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/10/england-fans-boos-players-take-a-knee-euro2020The England manager, Gareth Southgate, has explained in an open letter to fans why England players will be taking a knee. “This idea that some players don’t know what it means to play for England – or don’t care – has become something of a false narrative,” the England manager wrote. “I have a responsibility to the wider community to use my voice, and so do the players. It’s their duty to continue to interact with the public on matters such as equality, inclusivity and racial injustice, while using the power of their voices to help put debates on the table, raise awareness and educate.” We’d like to hear what you think of this letter and the gesture in general. We’re especially interested in hearing from BAME England fans about these issues. ....... . We’re especially interested in hearing from BAME England fans about these issues. " ..... In other words , if you are white and English , you can write in , but we are not that bothered about what you have to say ..... We’re especially interested in hearing from BAME England fans about these issues. " That's good of them , letting native English people write in . Bit racist though , not being particularly interested in what they have to say , and more interested in BAME opinion on this matter What is "BAME"?
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 13, 2021 18:51:45 GMT
There are several rational judgements to make , including ... 1) is it correct what they are saying ? Some people will say yes ... taking the knee is a gesture that has absolutely nothing to do with BLM at all Others will say ...I say disagree with that , taking the knee is synonymous with BLM 2) is it necessary for the players to make political gestures before the game Some will say yes it is Others will say ...No it's not I am 57 and I can easily remember going to a football game where the captain's would just shake hands and the two teams would kick off My son's are 24 and 22 and can remember this too More to the point my son's just want to see the players just shake hands and kick off Does this make them racist ? No So if Chinese players bow it's not ok because your son's don't want to see it? Just an example. The knee is culturally and historically relevent in this time and place. Err... talk about making things up ..... When has "taking the knee EVER been used as a form of protest in the UK (culturally), or as a symbol of anti-racism throughout history (historically)? And don't try and say that an ordained minister kneeling in prayer is how this symbol started - it didn't. It started about 4 years ago with Kaepernick, an american football player as a protest during the playing of the national anthem. It was popularized by BLM, an organization that promotes hatred, violence and racism. Now Chinese players bowing is culturally and historically significant, as is the All Blacks haka. Taking the knee - not so much.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 13, 2021 18:43:51 GMT
I would agree with that, like Martin Luther King said a person should be judged by the content of their Character not by the colour of their skin, as you said you can add gender and sexuality to it, The part about different opinions is also true, I think often people have lost the ability to say we will have to agree to disagree, if you don’t completely agree with the current narrative exactly and with out questions people are just shouted down rather than just taking in hope that maybe they can gain knowledge and understanding of othe view points I personally wouldn’t boo however I’m not sure I’d kneel either, but I’d be more than happy to wear a kick out t-shirt (and have) as it’s something I believe in. Does that make me a racist? As you say one of the biggest problems is people not being able to agree to disagree. It’s very easy for the issue to be put into an “us and them” situation when like most things there’s a huge grey area that the majority fall under (me included) in between. Rather than throwing the word “racist” around a lot more progress could be made by people actually listening to each other’s opinion and accepting it (providing it’s not blatantly racist). Booing is wrong and can’t be condoned and is classless and stupid however not agreeing with “taking the knee” for me isn’t. Of course racism is wrong and horrible but it’s also a very useful tool to use when attacking people with when they don’t 100 percent agree with a side issue around it like “taking the knee.” There are exceptions everywhere you look and arguments and counter arguments. People need to learn about consistency and I think that’s where the issue lies. You have one half saying that because of what’s happened in the past that quite correctly things need to change but then you get others saying that we’ve now gone too far and things are over compensated. Which is a fair argument potentially too. The cricket ones an interesting one where you’ve got Michael Carberry saying that Robinson should be banned for life regarding some comments (which were racist and wrong) that he made some years ago. Would he therefore also agree that Lenny Henry should be removed from all TV permanently for his racist behaviour towards a china man on Tiswas back in the 70s. There are so many factors involved eg the era, age etc does it mean that people can’t learn from their mistakes and become better people for it rather than permanently being banned. I think that we have to also appreciate that there are other forms of bigotry that seem forgotten racism of other ethnicities, homophobia, sexism etc. The cricketer one is ludicrous (as would be any sanction against Lenny Henry). Let he who has never made a mistake throw the first stone. Anyone heard about what they found on Hunter Biden's laptop .....
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 13, 2021 18:34:48 GMT
I wasn't there, so no comment on your story. Discrimination in any form is unacceptable, and needs to be addressed by the proper authorities who need to strongly enforce the law. To leave it up to you to respond as you did, or fans in the stadium to start fighting with each other is sheer madness. How long before people, including innocent bystanders start getting hurt as has been the case in the USA? I don't treat any person differently regardless of any differences between us. BUT, I also refuse to put myself or my family in harms way by acting as an unofficial anti-discrimination enforcer. What if the neo-nazi bruiser racist hurling abuse at someone decides to come and beat you senseless instead? At the end of the day, my family is more important to me than anyone's feelings. As long as it is not physically violent, I will report it and act as a witness if needed, but I will not intervene. There are channels to ensure that justice is done. Your hypothetical scenarios get more ridiculous with each passing post. I'm a 45 year old bloke and I've been involved in 3 punch ups in my life to date. 2 at school and 1 at Bournemouth away when we lost 4-0 with muggers in goal. I'm sorry that an earlier comment I made has enabled you and pushon to try and derail a very serious matter with your quite ridiculous scenarios. For the record, I was speaking figuratively rather than literally as a way of expressing how strongly I feel about this subject. Congratulations, I've been in 1 - When I was still in school. That's not the point. Do you honestly think that there is never any pushback when someone "interferes" with something someone else is doing? Even a respected poster (I wonder who?) on here (And I quote word for word) posted: "I'm a pretty mild mannered bloke most of the time but I have strong beliefs and my moral compass is very much offended by matters of racism. I'd confront anyone who boos and suspecting the type of people they are, you can be almost certain it will end with a punch up. I'm not a fighter at all but would happily fight, win or lose, over this matter if I had to." So you see, it's not that ridiculous of a scenario at all. However, we are both sounding like broken records so I'll end it with a short summary: We both feel adamantly that discrimination based purely on race, gender, age, religion, weight, etc, etc, has no place in the world. I believe the way to deal with violators is to enforce the law and make the punishment strong enough that no one will do it. You believe that we should all play a part (undefined - but swearing at and threatening people has been mentioned) in policing behaviour. I believe that sports professionals and other performers are paid to entertain not moralize on their particular cause of the week and find the BLM associated gesture of "taking the knee" offensive. You believe that meaningless gestures are the way to go to reinforce the need for tolerance and if the gesture offends anyone else, that's too bad because they are probably racist idiots. I guess there's no middle ground, so I'm going to bow-out of this discussion and hope to see you on another thread where we can agree on our mighty potters being the greatest team the world has ever seen!
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 12, 2021 23:47:07 GMT
I don't boo anyone. I'd tell them they are misguided for all the many reasons that I've posted on here already and tell them that I find it offensive that they feel that A) they need to insult the 99 % of people who don't hurl abuse and; B) the people in the stands pay their salaries to see football not displays of the cause of the week; C)even if they wanted to do that to their customers who pay their salaries, that a gesture associated with an organization that promotes violence, hatred and racism is offensive to me; D) If you want to solve the problem instead of meaningless gestures - do something meaningful and; E) I have a choice where I spend my money and can choose to spend it elsewhere. 1 person, 1 organisation can't change centuries of discrimination because of the colour of a person's skin. It needs those that don't hurl abuse, who are as disgusted by racism (and other forms of discrimination) as those on the receiving end are, to take a stance as well. We all have a part to play, however insignificant that part may be. To answer your previous post, I'm not sure a restaurant or cinema in this country will stop you eating or watching a film because of the colour of your skin. I'm certain that a sportsperson will be abused because of the colour of his skin should he happen to be perceived as the villain of the piece on any given day. You would clearly leave it to others, to the authorities or whoever, so long as it doesn't inconvenience you or impinge on your own senses. You crack on though. You pay your money and I hope, sincerely, that you choose to spend it away from football and Stoke City. Edit - I wasn't going to post this but you've made me change my mind. Today I played golf with a guy called Islam Patel. He couldn't come into the bar for a drink afterwards because he had to get back to his kids as his wife was going out for dinner with friends. As I sat outside having a drink on my own, someone I'd played golf with before was a bit over familiar saying "sitting on your own mate? That's the only problem with playing with the packi's. Car park golfers the lot of them". I responded by saying "playing golf with Islam was far more enjoyable than playing golf with a cunt like you" before reminding him that when we played together he also didn't go to the bar. Not because he had somewhere to go, but because he played so shit he couldn't bear to stay at the club a second longer. It was just a joke apparently! I despair really. Goodnight. Edit 2 - I'm still pretty furious about the events of today but in the interests of accuracy, I'm not 100% sure he used the word packi's with his initial comment. He may have said "that's the problem with playing with that lot. Car park golfers the lot of them". His pals chuckled yet never said a word when I responded. Not one single word. As mad as I was and as raging as I still am, for the benefit of pushon and you, not a single punch was thrown. I wasn't there, so no comment on your story. Discrimination in any form is unacceptable, and needs to be addressed by the proper authorities who need to strongly enforce the law. To leave it up to you to respond as you did, or fans in the stadium to start fighting with each other is sheer madness. How long before people, including innocent bystanders start getting hurt as has been the case in the USA? I don't treat any person differently regardless of any differences between us. BUT, I also refuse to put myself or my family in harms way by acting as an unofficial anti-discrimination enforcer. What if the neo-nazi bruiser racist hurling abuse at someone decides to come and beat you senseless instead? At the end of the day, my family is more important to me than anyone's feelings. As long as it is not physically violent, I will report it and act as a witness if needed, but I will not intervene. There are channels to ensure that justice is done.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 12, 2021 23:30:14 GMT
I don't boo anyone. I'd tell them they are misguided for all the many reasons that I've posted on here already and tell them that I find it offensive that they feel that A) they need to insult the 99 % of people who don't hurl abuse and; B) the people in the stands pay their salaries to see football not displays of the cause of the week; C)even if they wanted to do that to their customers who pay their salaries, that a gesture associated with an organization that promotes violence, hatred and racism is offensive to me; D) If you want to solve the problem instead of meaningless gestures - do something meaningful and; E) I have a choice where I spend my money and can choose to spend it elsewhere. Everything you are saying there is a total load of rambling bollocks, but at least you wouldn't openly abuse people making a simple gesture to show they oppose racism. What do you think of those who boo? That it's ok? Or not ok? Why do you care? If everything I say is bollocks, I guess it's ok to make a meaningless gesture thinking you're somehow solving the problem, as long as no-one is allowed to have free speech and voice an opinion different to yours.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 12, 2021 21:48:10 GMT
Sometimes it's absolutely pointless to discuss things with people who simply cannot comprehend the world we live in. We agree 100%!
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 12, 2021 21:47:29 GMT
So in your opinion if you don't use the words "Bad Person" but say "...need to change for the better ... " ... reflect upon ourselves as individuals..." "...live in a bubble of contempt for change, or taking any form of responsibility for their own attitudes and values..." "...need reminding of the injustices that we reinforce every day..." "...being ignorant..." "...a platform for potential change- both for better or worse", then it's OK? The difference between you and me is I am not interested in meaningless symbols and gestures to cause reflection - I am interested in solving the problem. To throw a bunch of theories against the wall and say "it will be a platform for change, for better or worse" just doesn't cut the mustard. Who the hell wants change for the worse?? My Grandchildren have to live in this world and I want it to be the best possible place it can be. I start at home, by teaching good values and being an example of those values in action. I never break the law (Ok,Ok, you're "allowed" to go 10 MPH over the speed limit in TX), I never steal, I never cheat, I always help where I see it's needed. A person's colour, gender, religion, age or (and this is the hardest for me) politics don't change the way I treat them as people. What a load of hogwash when you say the mechanisms I speak of were devised in a discriminatory and inequitable environment - So you're saying the law, and every institution involved in stamping out discrimination needs to be scrapped? And replaced with things like BLM??? Yeah, Right! As for punishment does not alter behaviour, in what world do you live? Look at the American cities that have defunded or scaled back on policing. They are experiencing RECORD Murder, Rape, Theft and destruction of property. About 30 years ago I worked with a consultant to the Saudi Arabia government. He told me that for 5 years in a row, SA had the lowest crime rate in the world! He said you could take out a wad of $1,000 (30 years ago, that was a decent wedge) and put it on the hood of your parked car. You could come back the next morning and it would still be there! Why? Because if you were caught stealing, they cut your hand off! Now I don't condone or for one moment think such drastic action is acceptable, but it proves conclusively, if the punishment is bad enough, it will change behaviour. I guarantee you, if someone being abusive was stuck in a work farm for 30 days, they would think twice before doing it again. And if they did do it again, make it 60 days for a second offense, etc. Finally if the best possible action that your so-called "critical thinkers" can come up with is to bend a knee for a few seconds, we are in bigger trouble than we know. Good Grief, if you want change, donate half your earnings to BLM err I mean a decent political action group. But, if you want to force your style over substance gesture on me, I'll simply stop watching and spend my money in a place where they appreciate that the customer (regardless of skin colour) is king! Boo the F.A, not the platform for change. Would you boo the bend the knee gesture, after being told by the person doing it that they are doing it as a simple gesture in support of racial equality? I don't boo anyone. I'd tell them they are misguided for all the many reasons that I've posted on here already and tell them that I find it offensive that they feel that A) they need to insult the 99 % of people who don't hurl abuse and; B) the people in the stands pay their salaries to see football not displays of the cause of the week; C)even if they wanted to do that to their customers who pay their salaries, that a gesture associated with an organization that promotes violence, hatred and racism is offensive to me; D) If you want to solve the problem instead of meaningless gestures - do something meaningful and; E) I have a choice where I spend my money and can choose to spend it elsewhere.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 12, 2021 21:31:50 GMT
Just booing or would you assault someone who protested in another way, lets say we signed Lyle Taylor who protests about black lives matter by standing (and has also publicly called them a marxist organisation) would you run onto the pitch and twat him? You are just being silly now. If the players take the knee to raise awareness and show solidarity with black players that is absolutely fine by me. If the players, black or white, don't take part because they feel the gesture has run its course and is not leading to the authorities taking it seriously enough that is absolutely fine as well. If footballers them come up with something else to show their solidarity with their black colleagues then that is equally fine as well. I'm struggling to think of any gesture aimed to help eradicate racial discrimination from sport and wider society that would annoy me so much as to make me want to boo it. It is absolutely ridiculous and as I've said many times is more an indictment of those dissenting than it is those doing it. As a white man from a black family I've seen many forms of racial prejudice. I don't like it. I don't tolerate it and I'm happy to challenge it when I see it. You and others can attempt to trivialise that by focusing on one comment on a message board to detract from the overall message. Those booing and defending the booing, however much you want to protest otherwise, are very much part of the problem. Does that make you racist? No. I've not said that. You don't have to be racist to be part of the problem. The simple fact that many of these objectors are clearly not offended by racism and the impact it has on life and society is part of the problem. A 2-3 second gesture before a sporting event with a huge audience is a perfect platform for any gesture of this nature. The reach is enormous and sport is arguably the biggest and best "unifier" of people. I'm happy to do my bit to help eradicate racism from society and I've challenged people on a number of occasions, including a good friend who made a comment about Shaun Wright Phillip's and the only punch up I've ever had was with one of my cousins who played the racism card the other way to get him out of trouble and me into trouble. As a result of that, I didn't speak to my own dad for thr best part of 4 years. Enjoy having the message aired before every game. Whatever form it takes in the future, be it the knee or something else, I hope they persist with it. The same people will then moan about the new gesture and how ridiculous and political it is. You can almost guarantee it. DJ, would you say that racism and discrimination is a problem in many walks of life, not just football? If so, how would you feel if going out to watch a movie, the actors all "take the knee" before the opening credits and before starting the movie, the cinema employees all "Take the knee"; or at a restaurant, before taking your order, the person waiting on your table first "takes the knee"; or before serving you at the supermarket the cashier "takes the knee"; etc, etc,. Wouldn't it then become a meaningless gesture? For example, when someone sneezes and someone says "bless you" do they really mean God Bless you and protect you from the black death", or is it a meaningless plattitude that is polite to say without even thinking about it. I'm all for stamping out discrimination in any form, but strongly believe in firm action against the perpetrators rather than irritating style over substance displays to the 99% of people who don't need reminding to be decent human beings.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 12, 2021 20:43:05 GMT
Who are you to judge why people boo and what they need to think about or live their lives? Gods got it spot on. If I am paying to be entertained and before every game/show/movie/whatever commences I am told "you need to change for the better, or at the very least reflect upon ourselves as individuals and as a society to acknowledge our responsibility to make things better", without any regard to who I am or what I've done with the blessings I've received, I am going to simply stop paying. Racism is no more important than any other form of bigotry such as religious persecution, woman's rights, gay rights, unborn humans rights, etc, etc, etc. There are mechanisms to bring about change in a society. Beef up laws, beef up policing of the laws and beef up the penalties for perpetrators and you will see abusive behaviour disappear almost overnight. But don't tell me that I am a bad person and am somehow responsible because my skin is a different color to yours. How is that any less racist than idiots who think they are better than someone else because of their skin color? Because if we don't we reinforce the status quo and play ignorant to the blatant corruption, injustices and discrimination that occurs across the globe. It is all of our responsibilities whether you like it or not. I never said anything about being a bad person, it's about acknowledging ignorance and truths about society and societal change. The mechanisms you speak of were devised in a discriminatory and inequitable environment. That's part of the realisation that we need to acknowledge, that change needs to be made at the very core of these mechanisms for change. Footballers acknowledge it, they show it by taking the knee. The mechanisms and systems aren't working, thus must be changed. The only way to become better is to self reflect, and discuss with others whilst acknowledging ones position and ones attitudes and values, in light of historical and cultural influence. Basically, critical thinking is essential to creating a better world for everyone, not just the priveledged. So booing people because they are critically thinking, acknowledging injustices, and in many ways adopting a feminist approach is rather bewildering. Equal opportunity does not correspond to equality. Britain is a prime example if an inequitable society that thinks things are fair and just. Additionally, punishment does not change behaviour. You know what does? Discussion, education (not brainwashing), and understanding others perspectives. With regards to law, you couldn't be more far off. So in your opinion if you don't use the words "Bad Person" but say "...need to change for the better ... " ... reflect upon ourselves as individuals..." "...live in a bubble of contempt for change, or taking any form of responsibility for their own attitudes and values..." "...need reminding of the injustices that we reinforce every day..." "...being ignorant..." "...a platform for potential change- both for better or worse", then it's OK? The difference between you and me is I am not interested in meaningless symbols and gestures to cause reflection - I am interested in solving the problem. To throw a bunch of theories against the wall and say "it will be a platform for change, for better or worse" just doesn't cut the mustard. Who the hell wants change for the worse?? My Grandchildren have to live in this world and I want it to be the best possible place it can be. I start at home, by teaching good values and being an example of those values in action. I never break the law (Ok,Ok, you're "allowed" to go 10 MPH over the speed limit in TX), I never steal, I never cheat, I always help where I see it's needed. A person's colour, gender, religion, age or (and this is the hardest for me) politics don't change the way I treat them as people. What a load of hogwash when you say the mechanisms I speak of were devised in a discriminatory and inequitable environment - So you're saying the law, and every institution involved in stamping out discrimination needs to be scrapped? And replaced with things like BLM??? Yeah, Right! As for punishment does not alter behaviour, in what world do you live? Look at the American cities that have defunded or scaled back on policing. They are experiencing RECORD Murder, Rape, Theft and destruction of property. About 30 years ago I worked with a consultant to the Saudi Arabia government. He told me that for 5 years in a row, SA had the lowest crime rate in the world! He said you could take out a wad of $1,000 (30 years ago, that was a decent wedge) and put it on the hood of your parked car. You could come back the next morning and it would still be there! Why? Because if you were caught stealing, they cut your hand off! Now I don't condone or for one moment think such drastic action is acceptable, but it proves conclusively, if the punishment is bad enough, it will change behaviour. I guarantee you, if someone being abusive was stuck in a work farm for 30 days, they would think twice before doing it again. And if they did do it again, make it 60 days for a second offense, etc. Finally if the best possible action that your so-called "critical thinkers" can come up with is to bend a knee for a few seconds, we are in bigger trouble than we know. Good Grief, if you want change, donate half your earnings to BLM err I mean a decent political action group. But, if you want to force your style over substance gesture on me, I'll simply stop watching and spend my money in a place where they appreciate that the customer (regardless of skin colour) is king! Boo the F.A, not the platform for change.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 23:54:42 GMT
You literally suggested you'd physically attack anyone booing. The amazing thing is you think you're the good guy in all this I think you'll find I said I'd confront them. I would and I have done in the past. I've not had a lengthy stadium ban yet! You show your true colours with each passing comment. So Players "taking the knee" as a sign of greater tolerance needed for the differences between people would result in you being intolerant of anyone who dares to have a different opinion? Something of an oxymoron?
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 23:51:34 GMT
I think the dynamic is this. This pre-match ritual says 'You white folks need to get your house in order and start treating us with respect'. After all if it doesn't say that then what is the point of it at all? And it leaves some people in the audience bristling with indignation thinking to themselves 'Fuck that for a game of soldiers mate, I'm here cheering you to the rafters and funding your obscene 7 figure income so I'd be very grateful if you'd give it a rest. And by the way I don't need a moral lesson ahead of each and every match like prayers at school.' Not going in the rights and wrongs of it all but that fundamentally is what is behind the booing. In my humble opinion. Spot on. Remove all the moralizing and that's what you're left with.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 23:50:14 GMT
I think the dynamic is this. This pre-match ritual says 'You white folks need to get your house in order and start treating us with respect', after all if it doesn't say that then what is the point of it at all? And it leaves some people in the audience bristling with indignation thinking to themselves 'Fuck that for a game of soldiers mate, I'm here cheering you to the rafters and funding your obscene 7 figure income so I'd be very grateful if you'd give it a rest. I don't need a moral lesson ahead of each and every match.' Not going in the rights and wrongs of it all but that fundamentally is what is behind the booing. In my humble opinion. But reality is, we actually do. We need a hell of a lot more self reflection and acknowledgement of the influences and impacts that culture, society, and history has on us all, and that we all need to change for the better, or at the very least reflect upon ourselves as individuals and as a society to acknowledge our responsibility to make things better. Far too many people live in a bubble of contempt for change, or taking any form of responsibility for their own attitudes and values, and where they permeated from, yet it is those who boo such platforms for potential change. We all need reminding of the injustices that we reinforce every day just by being ignorant. At the very least, it brings attention to discussion, and as I stated that is a platform for potential change- both for better or worse. Boo the F.A, not the platform for change. Who are you to judge why people boo and what they need to think about or live their lives? Gods got it spot on. If I am paying to be entertained and before every game/show/movie/whatever commences I am told "you need to change for the better, or at the very least reflect upon ourselves as individuals and as a society to acknowledge our responsibility to make things better", without any regard to who I am or what I've done with the blessings I've received, I am going to simply stop paying. Racism is no more important than any other form of bigotry such as religious persecution, woman's rights, gay rights, unborn humans rights, etc, etc, etc. There are mechanisms to bring about change in a society. Beef up laws, beef up policing of the laws and beef up the penalties for perpetrators and you will see abusive behaviour disappear almost overnight. But don't tell me that I am a bad person and am somehow responsible because my skin is a different color to yours. How is that any less racist than idiots who think they are better than someone else because of their skin color?
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 23:38:23 GMT
Then do something else that actually unites rather than divides. Its a really rather simple concept. I have given examples and I am yet to hear why they won't work. So explain to me how it is productive to continue something that is obviously divisive (regardless as to whether you agree or disagree with the reasons given for the divisiveness)when there are much better ways of doing it. Sorry but your position isn't sustainable. I cant think of anything more divisive than booing players because they do something to bring to attention the fact that they are getting regular racist abuse, and booing those who show support for them. The reason these players are doing this is because of the divisiveness of racism and racist abuse. Booing them for them for highlighting this does not help anyone. The world is mad on hyperbole. You honestly can't think of something more divisive than booing? Wow, you must live a very protected life. I don't condone booing at all (even for poor performances/.dreadful mistakes during the game) but people are so quick to leap to the extremes. Booing is not the worst thing that could happen. Ask some of the US cities that have been burned/trashed and looted regularly for months.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 23:28:12 GMT
But you dont think a more universally recognised gesture could do more? A massive middle finger to racism? <in my best Basil Fawlty impression> Brilliant! Brilliant! We'll all give it the finger. <Prancing around showing the finger to everyone> Come on you lot ... show it the finger! <everyone starts showing the finger to everyone else. Basil prances up to big bruiser watching the game and shows him the finger> BAM!
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 23:21:38 GMT
Johno. I believe taking the knee is divisive as it “replicates” the actions of protesters we saw during the BLM protests. I hope and believe the booing was against the action of taking the knee, NOT the players. Its interesting to note that a number of countries, clubs and individual players (current and ex) don’t believe in taking the knee. Football already has a successful kick it out campaign which has now added “discrimination” to its existing message/logo/banner. Why don’t the players collectively stand behind a kick it out flag? The message is strong, clear, unambiguous and accepted. View AttachmentKick it out hasn't been successful at all in the eyes of the many black footballers who continue to receive abuse has it hence the players, in unison, felt more needed to be done. You believe what you believe despite being told by numerous people actually participating that it means nothing at all what you believe. As Lakeland has explained so eloquently above, the taking of the knee was actually a very respectful alteration of behaviour of a sportsman who initially remained seated during the playing of the National Anthem long before any of us had even heard of BLM. The booing of the action is the booing of players taking a stance against discrimination, mainly racial discrimination. Perversely, those booing have probably ensured that it will continue in England. You can't back down simply because a group of intolerant football supporters boo because THEY believe it means something different to what it actually means. Keep taking the knee and let them keep booing is my opinion. If our players do it in the early games next season and someone with earshot of me boos I suspect I'll be facing a lengthy stadium ban for my reaction. I beg to differ. It has been very successful in raising awareness. If you are expecting the fans to become an extension of the police, that is not a good idea. Instead of folks calling to "defund the police" perhaps the police should be given the tools and training they need and then held accountable for not bringing perpetrators to justice! What brain dead idiot is going to hurl abuse (based on any bigotry) at a player when they saw that last week their buddy Sue got busted and is going to spend the next 2 years behind bars? And if they do still hurl abuse, guess what? They won't be there next week. See how quickly that solves the problem instead of inviting more abuse by adopting a gesture that IS linked to an organization that foments violence, hatred and racism. Your last comment sums it up - incite violence, because you are of a different opinion to a fellow Stokie, NOT ABOUT RACISM, but about a stupid gesture?
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 13:16:33 GMT
Sounds like a plan, except Wendys is not Awake Woken Alive cool woke enough and its founder once burped while walking past a BLM member (BLM hadn't been founded yet, but hey, insignificant detail) and should be castigated forever. It has to be a Starbucks advert. definitely not - you can still order a black or white coffee in starbycks
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 13:11:28 GMT
Johno. I believe taking the knee is divisive as it “replicates” the actions of protesters we saw during the BLM protests. I hope and believe the booing was against the action of taking the knee, NOT the players. Its interesting to note that a number of countries, clubs and individual players (current and ex) don’t believe in taking the knee. Football already has a successful kick it out campaign which has now added “discrimination” to its existing message/logo/banner. Why don’t the players collectively stand behind a kick it out flag? The message is strong, clear, unambiguous and accepted. View AttachmentExactly a couple of ballboys /girls could hold the banner for each team then promptly leaving the pitch with it Now who could feel the need to boo that Could even get some fan involvement by having something like: "Join Stoke and Take a Stand" - Then give the banner to a random seat number at half time.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 13:04:43 GMT
The worst thing about this divisive ritual is its placing right before the game. Regular minute silences are bad enough. This farce takes it to another level by being every goddamn game. Run on the pitch and do this american crap if you want. But, no, it has to have this whistle and worship feature. 150 years of blowing the whistle and playing the game has to be fucked up doesn't it. What next, sticking an advert for 'Wendys' on immediately before the game? Sounds like a plan, except Wendys is not Awake Woken Alive cool woke enough and its founder once burped while walking past a BLM member (BLM hadn't been founded yet, but hey, insignificant detail) and should be castigated forever. It has to be a Starbucks advert.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 12:58:11 GMT
But weren’t you saying a few months ago to just wait till March till the vulnerable were vaccinated and we’d be back to normal? If they can’t open up with the current metrics god help us when the inevitable winter uptick arrives!! The issue is the vaccine is currently reducing hospitalisations by 55% based on PHE figures which is fine when you've got low case numbers. If you start getting 20,000+ cases a day which is inevitable once you fully lift restrictions then if you do the maths you can see hospitalisations get out of control. What on earth? If you are doing 10 times the testing, of course you are going to find many more asymptomatic cases. Given that the "vaccine" does not stop you getting the disease but helps your body fight it, (while doing God knows what to your system), how can anyone say hospitalizations will "get out of control". If that's the case, how about a little honesty? Something like "The Covid shots are a dismal failure. The NHS is completely inadequate to handle even the slightest bump in the road. We spent BILLIONS on ineffective Covid response while failing to beef up the NHS or develop standardized treatment protocols. Because of this dreadful disease which has a less than 16 in 10,000 chance of killing you, we'd like you all to sign over your lives and livelihoods to the government. From now on, a permission slip must be obtained three weeks in advance if you would like to fart."
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 12:48:14 GMT
One word - Testing Last summer we weren't even doing 100k tests a day, now we're quite regularly doing over 1 million tests per day. We are 'finding' these 'asymptomatic' cases. I don't know how many times this has been pointed out on here, but to be fair it's not a few of us on a football message board who should be putting the message out. Once again it's the media not doing their job. And talking of tests, it look like the USA are going to be ditching the Innova tests. News - What's that? They do nothing but feed the company line. Here in San Antonio, A Woman was stabbed several times in a "upscale" cinema complex and was in very serious condition last weekend. The local media did not even report it until Wednesday and only after a social media storm commenting on lack of reporting. News media is dead. It has been replaced by puppet organizations that are more interested in pushing their own agenda than pursuing the truth.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 12:41:00 GMT
One word - Testing Last summer we weren't even doing 100k tests a day, now we're quite regularly doing over 1 million tests per day. We are 'finding' these 'asymptomatic' cases. yes had thought of that but hospitalizations remained low last summer where they say this year they will go through the roof to January levels how/why? So that when hospitalizations don't go through the roof, (which they aren't going to regardless of lockdown) they can say "Our wonderful actions in locking everyone in their houses worked"?
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 12:37:34 GMT
The only reason NHS didn't get overwhelmed in January or Feb was because we had a full national lockdown. Do you really want to open everything up only to have to close it all back down again a few weeks, later? We've been here before and you know that doesn't work it just creates total chaos for businesses opening and closing all the time. We were in lockdown for 4 months up until mid April. Here we are in June, despite the entirety of the vulnerable and most the country vaccinated and you are STILL preaching the same shit you preached last spring, last summer and last winter. More lockdown, more lockdown, more lockdown! When will you realise that lockdowns don't work? England has become LaLa Land! Move to the USA!
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 12:34:46 GMT
Do as I plan to do and simply refuse to wear them from 21st June. That's all well and good, but if supermarkets refuse to let me in without a mask then I'll have no choice but to keep putting them on. Ever heard of ordering online? In the US, as long as you order more than $35 worth of stuff, most big chains will deliver free of charge. Saves you gas, saves you time, saves you car wear and tear, saves you the hassle of having to deal with mask issues. I can't believe you guys are still dealing with this. I live in San Antonio and when I go to supermarket, 75-90% of the customers are maskless regardless of which store you go into. The last time I was asked to wear a mask was on my vacation in he Smoky Mountains - A small museum/shop that looked like it had seen much much better days insisted on masks even though there was not another person beside the employee in sight; we simply turned around and left.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 9:33:46 GMT
He's signed to 2024. That leaves 3 years on contract. After next year, it surely becomes a run down the clock and leave for free deal? He's a great player, but if it means we can take that 12 million and underwite another decent forward, I'm all for it. Eh? He’s a talented 19-year-old with multiple high-profile suitors, three years is not a run-down-the-clock scenario My point was, after this coming season he has only 24 months left. If he refuses to extend, we could lose him for nothing and he gets a potential 10+ million payday. Because he is young, talented and will have many options, I believe there's a window of opportunity to sell which is the next 12-18 months, thereafter we are in increasingly risky territory.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 0:46:05 GMT
FFS Stoke don't dive in, no need, clubs will be back and its early doors. I got told and posted on here that Nathan will be sold to dictate FFP not long ago, to give us some leveridge but please Stoke bide your time! He's signed to 2024. That leaves 3 years on contract. After next year, it surely becomes a run down the clock and leave for free deal? He's a great player, but if it means we can take that 12 million and underwite another decent forward, I'm all for it.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 22:28:59 GMT
The genie is out of the bottle. Some English national footballers (the black ones) know that regardless of how much effort they put into the imminent Euros, if one of them screws up, spoons a penalty over the bar, makes a tackle that gets them sent off, misplaces a pass that leads to a breakaway goal, whatever it might be, that some racist wanker will give them online abuse. And they have to play knowing that could happen. Beckham wasn't given abuse about his skin colour when his petulance got him sent off. Gareth Southgate didn't get racist abuse when he sent his penalty up into the crowd. And all the whole squad and manager are asking is that there is a show of unity amongst the England fans in the stadium when they make a gesture before the game, against this type of behaviour. But instead, up and down the country, England football fans are making excuses for not doing so, making excuses to boo themselves or excusing those that do. And they call themselves patriotic. They claim that they're not booing because they're racist, but because or something spurious or other. It's a fucking joke. You seem to be arguing it is wrong of Scotland to not take the knee It's wrong of Croatia to not take the knee It's wrong of any England fan to think Scotland and Croatia are right , and express the opinion that they would prefer England to not take the knee as well How can it possibly be wrong for an England fan to hold the opinion that they would prefer England to not take the knee, like Croatia and Scotland ? It's not as if English people , or Scottish people or Croatian people are not allowed to hold a different opinion to you on this subject They are not wrong , they just see things differently to what you do No one is allowed to see things differently to me!! Especially when it is something as Black and White as tolerance to the differences between people.
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 22:23:07 GMT
If you have a tradition where the men walk around in skirts wearing nowt underneath, everything else comes easy! And I speak as a member of the Paterson Clan which is a sub section of the Clan Mcleod! Especially in that weather! The Polynesians had it easy!
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 10, 2021 21:54:38 GMT
Tony Pulis didn’t care about building a legacy, he cared about one thing Tony Pulis 😤 Is that a joke? The bloke went above and beyond for DLT, the bloke left his mum’s funeral early to come to a game. Honestly some fucking people have memories like goldfish It's not their memory at fault, it's their attitude - If they smell blood, they go beserk.
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