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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Mar 7, 2024 9:20:42 GMT
There are things done in the the name England and by people who are English that I feel proud of and some things I'm ashamed of but overall I'd say I'm proud to call myself English. I like the fact we are a mongrel, multi cultural nation that manages to get on despite the provocation of those hell bent on division in the name of a non existent ethnic purity.
I'm far more ambiguous about identifying as British and get the resentment the Celtic nations must feel at how lopsided our relations are under that banner. The fact that the English and British national anthem are the same speaks volumes for the reality of the arrangement. I defined my nationality as English European on the last census and look forward to the day where we can unite as equal citizens with our respective written constitutions and elected heads of state under the flag of the EU.
There is definitely an issue with identifying as English that doesn't apply to other nationalities in the UK. I recently entered into a civil partnership and asked that my nationality be recorded as English and was told it wasn't an option and I had to register as British. For me that just isn't right - why shouldn't I have the right to self identify as English or for that matter English European?
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English
Mar 7, 2024 9:26:20 GMT
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Mar 7, 2024 9:26:20 GMT
Is it simpler ( or less controversial)to be proud to be Scottish or Welsh rather than English? I'd say yes. The English have a tendency to conflate English/British identity whereas the Welsh and the Scots primarily identify with being Welsh and Scottish and resentment the dominance of the English in the current political arrangement.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Mar 7, 2024 9:46:35 GMT
I'm not even sure what that means. Just flipping the question for a second ... Is there another nation on earth, where I think the people of that nation should feel proud of where they were born? Not particularly. Is there a nation on earth, where I think the people of that nation should feel ashamed of where they were born? Not particularly. And I guess that's how most people from other nations see us. If somebody judged me one way or the other because of where i was born, I'd be desperately dissapointed, I'd much prefer they judge me for who I am. It's ME who I should be proud of and ME who I should be ashamed of, where and when necessary. I'd go with something similar. In order to answer the question you'd need to be able to define what it is to be English - and I'm not sure I can. If it's something as reductive as where I was born then how can I be proud or ashamed of a piece of rock. I can only be proud or ashamed of something that I have some responsibility for or influence over. I can be proud or ashamed of my own contribution to a nation or society but not for that nation or society itself.
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Post by swampmongrel on Mar 7, 2024 10:01:23 GMT
Is it simpler ( or less controversial)to be proud to be Scottish or Welsh rather than English? I'd say yes. The English have a tendency to conflate English/British identity whereas the Welsh and the Scots primarily identify with being Welsh and Scottish and resentment the dominance of the English in the current political arrangement. I'm probably one of the few that see themselves as primarily British. It's probably because of my family history and that I don't live in the UK but I just see English, Northern Irish, Welsh and Scots as basically being the same cultural group. I can't imagine thinking a bloke from Wrexham (for example) is a 'foreigner'. Actually, I don't really see Irish people from the Republic as foreign either but that would probably irritate them.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Mar 7, 2024 10:18:28 GMT
I'd say yes. The English have a tendency to conflate English/British identity whereas the Welsh and the Scots primarily identify with being Welsh and Scottish and resentment the dominance of the English in the current political arrangement. I'm probably one of the few that see themselves as primarily British. It's probably because of my family history and that I don't live in the UK but I just see English, Northern Irish, Welsh and Scots as basically being the same cultural group. I can't imagine thinking a bloke from Wrexham (for example) is a 'foreigner'. Actually, I don't really see Irish people from the Republic as foreign either but that would probably irritate them. Amazing how many people don't actually know that the Republic and North are not both in the UK including someone I was talking to the other day when asked for certain reasons, had I been out of the UK in the last 28 days. She said yes but Ireland is not outside of the UK. Not quite on par with someone last year when going to Dublin who asked was there still bombings by the IRA there and was it safe ... I can't be doing with people from any country getting all emotional during a national anthem and about a bloody flag etc. Daley Thompson had the right idea As someone said ,is a piece of rock you were born on
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Post by noustie on Mar 7, 2024 10:26:24 GMT
You're orate I suppose but reserve the right to judge you on a case by case basis anyone living south of Stone.
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Post by wannabee on Mar 7, 2024 10:43:24 GMT
i was going to say something along similar lines . i feel that every body hates the english ( paranoia ? ) , certainly scots and welsh do . international bodies always seem to have a downer on the english ( british ) parliament eg UN re shamima begun , the IMF are understating growth forecasts , Since the rise in nationalism in scottish and walsh nationalism and what will eventually be the re-unification of ireland i find myself preferring to identify as english . I suspect that ethnic persons would probably identify themselves as british ? So the epitome of being English is the right to be offended by Johnny Foreigner's
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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 7, 2024 10:48:35 GMT
i was going to say something along similar lines . i feel that every body hates the english ( paranoia ? ) , certainly scots and welsh do . international bodies always seem to have a downer on the english ( british ) parliament eg UN re shamima begun , the IMF are understating growth forecasts , Since the rise in nationalism in scottish and walsh nationalism and what will eventually be the re-unification of ireland i find myself preferring to identify as english . I suspect that ethnic persons would probably identify themselves as british ? I would say Phil that if you ask this question to people living in other countries, they say exactly the same about regulatory bodies and the media. Regulatory bodies don’t often make statements congratulating countries. Similarly, bad news simply sells better than good news, so people are always going to hear more negative things than good things about their country in the media. If you pick up a paper, when do you ever hear regular cheerleading about other countries? It’s just not a regular occurrence.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Mar 7, 2024 11:04:44 GMT
I'd say yes. The English have a tendency to conflate English/British identity whereas the Welsh and the Scots primarily identify with being Welsh and Scottish and resentment the dominance of the English in the current political arrangement. I'm probably one of the few that see themselves as primarily British. It's probably because of my family history and that I don't live in the UK but I just see English, Northern Irish, Welsh and Scots as basically being the same cultural group. I can't imagine thinking a bloke from Wrexham (for example) is a 'foreigner'. Actually, I don't really see Irish people from the Republic as foreign either but that would probably irritate them. I suspect you aren't in a minority identifying primarily as British but I'd guess the majority of people identifying primarily as British will be either English or Northern Irish or relatively recent immigrants. I think there are two sides to this - who you are from the point of official recognition (I have a British passport also I'm recognised as British) and what nationality you identify with (for me it is English, not British). From a practical point of view the whole thing is a bit messed up. Personally I see "foreign" as meaning someone from a different place/nationality but I don't see it in terms of being fundamentally different/other. We are all human beings and for me someone who is Welsh, Scottish or Irish is as "foreign" as someone who is Chinese, Indian or Isreali - they just happen to have been born somewhere else and have a different national identity.
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Post by swampmongrel on Mar 7, 2024 11:37:40 GMT
I'm probably one of the few that see themselves as primarily British. It's probably because of my family history and that I don't live in the UK but I just see English, Northern Irish, Welsh and Scots as basically being the same cultural group. I can't imagine thinking a bloke from Wrexham (for example) is a 'foreigner'. Actually, I don't really see Irish people from the Republic as foreign either but that would probably irritate them. I suspect you aren't in a minority identifying primarily as British but I'd guess the majority of people identifying primarily as British will be either English or Northern Irish or relatively recent immigrants. I think there are two sides to this - who you are from the point of official recognition (I have a British passport also I'm recognised as British) and what nationality you identify with (for me it is English, not British). From a practical point of view the whole thing is a bit messed up. Personally I see "foreign" as meaning someone from a different place/nationality but I don't see it in terms of being fundamentally different/other. We are all human beings and for me someone who is Welsh, Scottish or Irish is as "foreign" as someone who is Chinese, Indian or Isreali - they just happen to have been born somewhere else and have a different national identity. I don't see 'foreign' as fundamentally different. I see the world as ordered as states (usually, but not always) roughly along national lines where there is a shared commonality of culture and language amongst the citizens of a state. We have common rights and obligations as fellow citizens that we don't extend to others (outsiders). I don't think the good things that we get from the state (e.g. public services, welfare, defence) would work if we don't feel that there is a commonality amongst its citizens. Basically, I see the state as an extended community or family. Until recently I worked for an international organisation with multiple different nationalities of none of which was dominant. All the staff were fluent in English and would be described as 'cosmopolitan' or 'open minded'. However, you could see friendship groups would often form along linguistic and cultural lines (e.g. the group of Irish lads who'd meet in the cafeteria and chat about GAA etc.). They would be the friendship groups called on if someone needed help. "for me someone who is Welsh, Scottish or Irish is as "foreign" as someone who is Chinese, Indian or Isreali". I think this would probably be a minority view but you are, of course, perfectly entitled to hold it.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 7, 2024 11:42:51 GMT
It's not something I ever give much thought too.
I often see the phrase "English/British values" and I honestly have no idea what it means? Most people have shared values the world over, the majority of people are kind and decent and just want to work hard and provide for their family.
Where I feel English/British I suppose is the quirks that separate us from most of the globe, country pubs, Test Match Special, regional accents, beans on toast, village fetes or whatever it may be.......
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Post by noustie on Mar 7, 2024 12:04:45 GMT
It's not something I ever give much thought too. I often see the phrase "English/British values" and I honestly have no idea what it means? Most people have shared values the world over, the majority of people are kind and decent and just want to work hard and provide for their family. Where I feel English/British I suppose is the quirks that separate us from most of the globe, country pubs, Test Match Special, regional accents, beans on toast, village fetes or whatever it may be....... As a tangent - is there a discernible difference between English and British or are the two interchangeable? Scottish and British are separate for me as from my perspective it's Scottish and English+ really.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 7, 2024 12:12:49 GMT
It's not something I ever give much thought too. I often see the phrase "English/British values" and I honestly have no idea what it means? Most people have shared values the world over, the majority of people are kind and decent and just want to work hard and provide for their family. Where I feel English/British I suppose is the quirks that separate us from most of the globe, country pubs, Test Match Special, regional accents, beans on toast, village fetes or whatever it may be....... As a tangent - is there a discernible difference between English and British or are the two interchangeable? Scottish and British are separate for me as from my perspective it's Scottish and English+ really. I forget the competition, but the man behind me at Stoke said ( referring to Gareth Bale) " There's only one English player left in Europe and he's Welsh". I think you are right in usage by the English perhaps not so much by the other nations of the UK
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Mar 7, 2024 12:23:08 GMT
I suspect you aren't in a minority identifying primarily as British but I'd guess the majority of people identifying primarily as British will be either English or Northern Irish or relatively recent immigrants. I think there are two sides to this - who you are from the point of official recognition (I have a British passport also I'm recognised as British) and what nationality you identify with (for me it is English, not British). From a practical point of view the whole thing is a bit messed up. Personally I see "foreign" as meaning someone from a different place/nationality but I don't see it in terms of being fundamentally different/other. We are all human beings and for me someone who is Welsh, Scottish or Irish is as "foreign" as someone who is Chinese, Indian or Isreali - they just happen to have been born somewhere else and have a different national identity. I don't see 'foreign' as fundamentally different. I see the world as ordered as states (usually, but not always) roughly along national lines where there is a shared commonality of culture and language amongst the citizens of a state. We have common rights and obligations as fellow citizens that we don't extend to others (outsiders). I don't think the good things that we get from the state (e.g. public services, welfare, defence) would work if we don't feel that there is a commonality amongst its citizens. Basically, I see the state as an extended community or family. Until recently I worked for an international organisation with multiple different nationalities of none of which was dominant. All the staff were fluent in English and would be described as 'cosmopolitan' or 'open minded'. However, you could see friendship groups would often form along linguistic and cultural lines (e.g. the group of Irish lads who'd meet in the cafeteria and chat about GAA etc.). They would be the friendship groups called on if someone needed help. "for me someone who is Welsh, Scottish or Irish is as "foreign" as someone who is Chinese, Indian or Isreali". I think this would probably be a minority view but you are, of course, perfectly entitled to hold it. I agree with your definition of what a nation state is but I don't think everybody has to be friends or share the same cultural identity to achieve it. In fact there are very few states these days which operate on the basis of being a mono culture and those that do end up being oppressive - like apartheid era South Africa and modern day Isreal and China. Your observation that people with a shared cultural heritage tend to form friendship groups is also true but I don't agree that this is a pre requisite for a successful nation state. In fact an over emphasis on a unique shared identity can lead nation states down a dark path - look at nazi Germany and Putin's Russia. Recognition and respect for difference within your own nation state (regardless of how the nation state might be defined as any point in time). I think problems arise when nationality is conflated with race, ethnicity and/or religion - which it often does and is why some people feel queasy when asked about being proud of their national identity. I'm proud of being English because we are so culturally diverse and manage to have a relatively peaceful functioning society. I can't even see how you can define being English in terms of a single racial, ethnic or religious group - we've always been a mongrel nation. You might be right in terms of mine being a minority view but I've never really felt obliged to adopt any view simply because it's what the majority of people think. Another English trait of which to be proud.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 7, 2024 12:28:09 GMT
It's not something I ever give much thought too. I often see the phrase "English/British values" and I honestly have no idea what it means? Most people have shared values the world over, the majority of people are kind and decent and just want to work hard and provide for their family. Where I feel English/British I suppose is the quirks that separate us from most of the globe, country pubs, Test Match Special, regional accents, beans on toast, village fetes or whatever it may be....... As a tangent - is there a discernible difference between English and British or are the two interchangeable? Scottish and British are separate for me as from my perspective it's Scottish and English+ really. Of course, I never really see myself as English apart from maybe when watching sport. If someone asked me where I was from I would always say Britain or the UK.........
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Post by noustie on Mar 7, 2024 12:32:13 GMT
As a tangent - is there a discernible difference between English and British or are the two interchangeable? Scottish and British are separate for me as from my perspective it's Scottish and English+ really. Of course, I never really see myself as English apart from maybe when watching sport. If someone asked me where I was from I would always say Britain or the UK......... It's interesting because I just see myself as Scottish and the only time really it's British is when someone Scottish is doing orate at the Olympics.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Mar 7, 2024 12:40:31 GMT
It's not something I ever give much thought too. I often see the phrase "English/British values" and I honestly have no idea what it means? Most people have shared values the world over, the majority of people are kind and decent and just want to work hard and provide for their family. Where I feel English/British I suppose is the quirks that separate us from most of the globe, country pubs, Test Match Special, regional accents, beans on toast, village fetes or whatever it may be....... As a tangent - is there a discernible difference between English and British or are the two interchangeable? Scottish and British are separate for me as from my perspective it's Scottish and English+ really. I think you may have illustrated just why the Scots and the Welsh have such contempt for the English. The English do use the terms "English" and "British" interchangeably - even the national anthem is the same and an earlier poster made the Freudian slip of calling it the English/British Parliament. England is huge in comparison to Wales and Scotland and politically and culturally dominates what is deemed to be British without even realising what they are doing. As a result the Welsh and Scots see the English as arrogant imperialists. In theory Britain is supposed to be about pooled sovereignty but the reality is the English see Britain as just an extension of itself without even questioning how this looks to others. This in part is why I struggle with identifying as British. I think the English need to rethink who they are and start seeing the Scots and the Welsh as equals in a new relationship based on equality rather dominance by what happens to be the largest nation. I hope to see that happen as part of the process of rehoming the EU - along with wholesale changes to our (to be written) political constitution.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Mar 7, 2024 12:49:05 GMT
Of course, I never really see myself as English apart from maybe when watching sport. If someone asked me where I was from I would always say Britain or the UK......... It's interesting because I just see myself as Scottish and the only time really it's British is when someone Scottish is doing orate at the Olympics. I think what you are both saying is representative of how the majority of English and Scots see things. The Scots have a very clear view of the primacy of being Scottish. On the whole the English/British self definition is as fuzzy and confused as our political institutions.
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Post by dutchstokie on Mar 7, 2024 12:50:51 GMT
English what? Language? Football? Judiciary? Literature? Breakfast? Nationality Or scouse for that matter....
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Post by gawa on Mar 7, 2024 13:31:58 GMT
I think it's a subjective thing which can change over time.
As an individual I'll be both proud and not so proud of my own actions and achievements at any given time. If I've murdered an innocent person then I'm not going to be proud of myself because 10 years earlier I helped an old lady with her shopping.
Britian had more to be proud of 15 years ago and I think the present day has more of an impact on my pride than anything historically for me. So at the moment I'm much prouder to be Northern Irish and Irish than I am British.
I hope I can regain that British pride and unity but our actions as a country and as a government make that very challenging. The present day is what I base my pride on and present day britian has little to be proud of unfortunately.
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Post by swampmongrel on Mar 7, 2024 13:42:52 GMT
I don't see 'foreign' as fundamentally different. I see the world as ordered as states (usually, but not always) roughly along national lines where there is a shared commonality of culture and language amongst the citizens of a state. We have common rights and obligations as fellow citizens that we don't extend to others (outsiders). I don't think the good things that we get from the state (e.g. public services, welfare, defence) would work if we don't feel that there is a commonality amongst its citizens. Basically, I see the state as an extended community or family. Until recently I worked for an international organisation with multiple different nationalities of none of which was dominant. All the staff were fluent in English and would be described as 'cosmopolitan' or 'open minded'. However, you could see friendship groups would often form along linguistic and cultural lines (e.g. the group of Irish lads who'd meet in the cafeteria and chat about GAA etc.). They would be the friendship groups called on if someone needed help. "for me someone who is Welsh, Scottish or Irish is as "foreign" as someone who is Chinese, Indian or Isreali". I think this would probably be a minority view but you are, of course, perfectly entitled to hold it. I agree with your definition of what a nation state is but I don't think everybody has to be friends or share the same cultural identity to achieve it. In fact there are very few states these days which operate on the basis of being a mono culture and those that do end up being oppressive - like apartheid era South Africa and modern day Isreal and China. Your observation that people with a shared cultural heritage tend to form friendship groups is also true but I don't agree that this is a pre requisite for a successful nation state. In fact an over emphasis on a unique shared identity can lead nation states down a dark path - look at nazi Germany and Putin's Russia. Recognition and respect for difference within your own nation state (regardless of how the nation state might be defined as any point in time). I think problems arise when nationality is conflated with race, ethnicity and/or religion - which it often does and is why some people feel queasy when asked about being proud of their national identity. I'm proud of being English because we are so culturally diverse and manage to have a relatively peaceful functioning society. I can't even see how you can define being English in terms of a single racial, ethnic or religious group - we've always been a mongrel nation. You might be right in terms of mine being a minority view but I've never really felt obliged to adopt any view simply because it's what the majority of people think. Another English trait of which to be proud. Strongly agree with this part: "I think problems arise when nationality is conflated with race, ethnicity and/or religion - which it often does and is why some people feel queasy when asked about being proud of their national identity." I'd argue that the concept of 'British' identity is quite successful at not being equated with race/religion/ethnicity.
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Post by swampmongrel on Mar 7, 2024 13:49:46 GMT
Of course, I never really see myself as English apart from maybe when watching sport. If someone asked me where I was from I would always say Britain or the UK......... It's interesting because I just see myself as Scottish and the only time really it's British is when someone Scottish is doing orate at the Olympics. As a Scot, do you see the English as less 'foreign' than say an Israeli or an Indian or about the same? I'm just thinking about Mr CBUFAWKIPWH's post (above) and I'm wondering whether my view, that there is some common British identity, comes from an English perspective. Feel free not to answer, of course.
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English
Mar 7, 2024 13:56:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by jesusmcmuffin on Mar 7, 2024 13:56:45 GMT
There"s not been such a thing as English citizenship in hundreds of years has there?
You're a British citizen and hold a British passport and citizenship don't you?
Not that you can't be English, Scottish or Welsh in your own opinion of course as the country of your birth
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Post by marylandstoke on Mar 7, 2024 14:00:09 GMT
There can't be many English people without a bit of Scots/Irish/Welsh ancestry. Fixed it for you: There can't be many English people without a bit of Scots/Irish/Whisky ancestry.
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Post by noustie on Mar 7, 2024 14:29:04 GMT
It's interesting because I just see myself as Scottish and the only time really it's British is when someone Scottish is doing orate at the Olympics. As a Scot, do you see the English as less 'foreign' than say an Israeli or an Indian or about the same? I'm just thinking about Mr CBUFAWKIPWH's post (above) and I'm wondering whether my view, that there is some common British identity, comes from an English perspective. Feel free not to answer, of course. Defo an interesting question and I genuinely see a lot of similarities in Dundee and Stoke in that there was historic industry then got completely fucked over. Maybe it's because I grew up there but I've more affiliation, and see more similarities, between Stoke and Dundee than I do between Stoke/Dundee and Aberdeen if that makes sense. Probably down to my folks coming from proper working class backgrounds and developing an inverted snobbery to fur coat no knickers billy big bollocks types even though was actually born there. However, there is defo a north/ south divide - I have no idea where it is but with work pretty much every time I go out with anyone London/ Home Counties types after a few beers they seem completely alien to me. It's obviously a generalization but don't feel the same affiliation - I actually felt more at home and comfortable with Nepali folk again in general. Probably the most foreign I've ever felt though was either in Portugal but that was more down to the individual being a bell end and a holiday in Wales where as a child I remember them speaking English until my old man did then they all just started randomly speaking Welsh.
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Post by atillathehoneybee on Mar 7, 2024 14:36:49 GMT
English 1st British 2nd. European LAST
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Post by frasier37 on Mar 7, 2024 15:41:18 GMT
Both
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Post by phileetin on Mar 7, 2024 16:01:46 GMT
As a tangent - is there a discernible difference between English and British or are the two interchangeable? Scottish and British are separate for me as from my perspective it's Scottish and English+ really. I think you may have illustrated just why the Scots and the Welsh have such contempt for the English. The English do use the terms "English" and "British" interchangeably - even the national anthem is the same and an earlier poster made the Freudian slip of calling it the English/British Parliament. England is huge in comparison to Wales and Scotland and politically and culturally dominates what is deemed to be British without even realising what they are doing. As a result the Welsh and Scots see the English as arrogant imperialists. In theory Britain is supposed to be about pooled sovereignty but the reality is the English see Britain as just an extension of itself without even questioning how this looks to others. This in part is why I struggle with identifying as British. I think the English need to rethink who they are and start seeing the Scots and the Welsh as equals in a new relationship based on equality rather dominance by what happens to be the largest nation. I hope to see that happen as part of the process of rehoming the EU - along with wholesale changes to our (to be written) political constitution.
it wasn't a freudian slip .the british bit was in brackets .
i personally wish that there was an english parliament . the west lothian question issue always creates the potential for controversy.
the closest anyone has got to that is by virtually advocating the break up of england via the creation of devolved local government with mayors and tax raising abilities.
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Post by salopstick on Mar 7, 2024 16:08:58 GMT
Im British first Welsh second. im not anti any nationality
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Post by salopstick on Mar 7, 2024 16:10:16 GMT
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