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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 19:21:29 GMT
I've literally just explained why, in my post that you've quoted.
There’s nothing there about part ownership?
The reasons are exactly the same.
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 25, 2024 19:29:30 GMT
The kicker however is, as you point out, the phenomenal cost involved given that the club is laden with debt due to the Coates spectacular mismanagement over the past 7 years that's required them to pump in vast quantities of cash to cover their own mistakes.If they really love the club as much as I'm continually told though, surely they'd wipe those debts to make the club a more saleable prospect? Exactly. Surely they would wipe the debts? I think you're being massively presumptuous on that one. And really I don't think emotional blackmail is going to work with them. What do I think? I think we have to accept the reality of the situation. Our owners are absolutely minted but they're utterly dreadful at running a football club but now we've got to a point where we're in a financial position that gives us no opportunity for a change. We have to hope that one day they will get their manager and recruitment appointments right and they will then use their untold wealth to capitalise on those appointments but until that time, sadly, it is what it is.
It is what it is? Would you be saying the same if we slip down to league 2? Because I genuinely don’t trust them to get league one any different than they have the championship. They’ll just throw more money at more shit thinking it’s the answer. Do we just sit idly by and watch it happen, like we are now?
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Post by danceswithclams on Feb 25, 2024 19:31:22 GMT
The kicker however is, as you point out, the phenomenal cost involved given that the club is laden with debt due to the Coates spectacular mismanagement over the past 7 years that's required them to pump in vast quantities of cash to cover their own mistakes.If they really love the club as much as I'm continually told though, surely they'd wipe those debts to make the club a more saleable prospect?
Exactly.
Surely they would wipe the debts? I think you're being massively presumptuous on that one. And really I don't think emotional blackmail is going to work with them.
What do I think?
I think we have to accept the reality of the situation. Our owners are absolutely minted but they're utterly dreadful at running a football club but now we've got to a point where we're in a financial position that gives us no opportunity for a change.
We have to hope that one day they will get their manager and recruitment appointments right and they will then use their untold wealth to capitalise on those appointments but until that time, sadly, it is what it is.
I was being churlish with my remarks about wiping the debt. At the end of the day, the Coates are ruthless, hard-faced capitalists and I wouldn't expect them to relinquish the club for a single penny less than they value it at. So essentially then, what you're saying is that the Coates have got us over a barrel? If you're happy with just sucking it up and accepting continual decline then that's your lookout. I'm not though.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 19:36:57 GMT
Exactly.
Surely they would wipe the debts? I think you're being massively presumptuous on that one. And really I don't think emotional blackmail is going to work with them.
What do I think?
I think we have to accept the reality of the situation. Our owners are absolutely minted but they're utterly dreadful at running a football club but now we've got to a point where we're in a financial position that gives us no opportunity for a change.
We have to hope that one day they will get their manager and recruitment appointments right and they will then use their untold wealth to capitalise on those appointments but until that time, sadly, it is what it is.
I was being churlish with my remarks about wiping the debt. At the end of the day, the Coates are ruthless, hard-faced capitalists and I wouldn't expect them to relinquish the club for a single penny less than they value it at. So essentially then, what you're saying is that the Coates have got us over a barrel? If you're happy with just sucking it up and accepting continual decline then that's your lookout. I'm not though.
I actually used the word S-A-D-L-Y, so why would you attempt to put words into my mouth?
Nobody is happy about the continual decline of the club but some of us understand the reality of the situation.
There isn't an alternative and you don't have a credible plan for one either.
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 25, 2024 19:39:15 GMT
I was being churlish with my remarks about wiping the debt. At the end of the day, the Coates are ruthless, hard-faced capitalists and I wouldn't expect them to relinquish the club for a single penny less than they value it at. So essentially then, what you're saying is that the Coates have got us over a barrel? If you're happy with just sucking it up and accepting continual decline then that's your lookout. I'm not though. I actually used the word S-A-D-L-Y, so why would you attempt to put words into my mouth? Nobody is happy about the continual decline of the club but some of us understand the reality of the situation. There isn't an alternative and you don't have a credible plan for one either.
We up the pressure, we become vocal. We make them realise they need help. Instead of sitting here clapping hands lapping it up being forever grateful cos they give us free travel and freeze ticket prices.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 19:40:41 GMT
Exactly. Surely they would wipe the debts? I think you're being massively presumptuous on that one. And really I don't think emotional blackmail is going to work with them. What do I think? I think we have to accept the reality of the situation. Our owners are absolutely minted but they're utterly dreadful at running a football club but now we've got to a point where we're in a financial position that gives us no opportunity for a change. We have to hope that one day they will get their manager and recruitment appointments right and they will then use their untold wealth to capitalise on those appointments but until that time, sadly, it is what it is.
It is what it is? Would you be saying the same if we slip down to league 2? Because I genuinely don’t trust them to get league one any different than they have the championship. They’ll just throw more money at more shit thinking it’s the answer. Do we just sit idly by and watch it happen, like we are now?
There isn't an alternative.
Even if there was mass protests and people on the pitch and in the directors boxes, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
It's a completely different situation now, the value of the club is far too high, for it to be legitimately put on the market, even if the Coates family needed to sell (which they don't).
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Post by danceswithclams on Feb 25, 2024 19:49:18 GMT
There isn't an alternative and you don't have a credible plan for one either. That's where we disagree. I refuse to believe that the club (even in its current state) wouldn't represent an investment opportunity for someone or some group somewhere.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 19:59:39 GMT
There isn't an alternative and you don't have a credible plan for one either. That's where we disagree. I refuse to believe that the club (even in its current state) wouldn't represent an investment opportunity for someone or some group somewhere.
But with respect mate, I think that belief is based more on frustration with the situation than anything else.
You yourself have conceded that the debt wouldn't make it an attractive purchase.
With what would be required to buy it, you could buy something far more spectacular.
Why buy a terraced house in Shelton, when you could buy a fuck off big detached in Westlands for the same price?
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Post by danceswithclams on Feb 25, 2024 20:04:47 GMT
The debt does make it less of an attractive prospect and probably shrinks the number of potential buyers, for sure.
I'm not having it that, even in the state the club is in right now, it's completely unsaleable.
If, in the unlikely event of the Coates putting the club up for sale tomorrow, I'm absolutely certain that there'd be interested parties.
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Post by generationex on Feb 25, 2024 20:06:56 GMT
I just can’t see how we’re an investment opportunity for anyone:
- a club that has never made a profit worth mentioning. - has lost the current owners £140 million and survives only because of their largess and intense interest. - doesn’t own the stadium, which is ageing with no proper transport links in place. - is the fifth oldest club but has only ever won one trophy. - has no real player assets. - has some of the worlds biggest clubs on its doorstep. - is based in a economically depressed small city with two clubs. - has no global brand presence. - has no prospect of gates much beyond £30k.
The only businessman that would buy this club is by definition a bad one. Either naively incompetent or looking to strip whatever small value may exist.
At the moment we got 99 problems but some cash ain’t one. If they sell we’ve got a hundred.
Resources is the single most important factor in every successful football club in the long run. It lets you make mistakes and still survive. Doesn’t mean I’m happy with the way the club has been run since 2012 but we’ve got to live in the real world.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 20:13:43 GMT
I just can’t see how we’re an investment opportunity for anyone: - a club that has never made a profit worth mentioning. - has lost the current owners £140 million and survives only because of their largess and intense interest. - doesn’t own the stadium, which is ageing with no proper transport links in place. - is the fifth oldest club but has only ever won one trophy. - has no real player assets. - has some of the worlds biggest clubs on its doorstep. - is based in a economically depressed small city with two clubs. - has no global brand presence. - has no prospect of gates much beyond £30k. The only businessman that would buy this club is by definition a bad one. Either naively incompetent or looking to strip whatever small value may exist. At the moment we got 99 problems but some cash ain’t one. If they sell we’ve got a hundred. Resources is the single most important factor in every successful football club in the long run. It lets you make mistakes and still survive. Doesn’t mean I’m happy with the way the club has been run since 2012 but we’ve got to live in the real world.
In a nutshell.
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Post by theonlooker on Feb 25, 2024 20:14:59 GMT
The debt does make it less of an attractive prospect and probably shrinks the number of potential buyers, for sure. I'm not having it that, even in the state the club is in right now, it's completely unsaleable. If, in the unlikely event of the Coates putting the club up for sale tomorrow, I'm absolutely certain that there'd be interested parties. It's an interesting debate and I agree with Paul that I don't think they'd be too keen to wipe the debt completely clean. There would definitely be a certain level of 'smacked arse' to the negotiations around what would be a very sore point both personally to John and Peter but also throughout the family you'd think. That in itself is interesting as the debt has been accrued 100% by them through over half a decade of dreadful decision after dreadful decision, and that in itself doesn't lend itself to the mantra that they care deeply about the club and that they are the best owners we could ever wish for, which certain quarters of our fanbase are overly insistent on.
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Post by Olgrligm on Feb 25, 2024 20:20:23 GMT
That works both ways though. I'm actually certain that no one would be interested in purchasing Stoke City FC. Reason being, that absolutely nobody is going to cough up a quarter of a billion quid for a club that has won fuck all. Anybody looking to invest in a football club would have far sexier options available to them at that price. To put it into context ... let's say SCFC was currently owned by somebody else completely and they wanted to put it up for sale. Do you seriously believe that the Coates family, one of the richest families in the country, life long Stoke fans and from the local area would be interested at that price? Would they buggery! Now if somebody with such perfect credentials, wouldn't be interested in buying the club, then why on earth would anybody else be interested? Your turn to explain now. And please don't come out with some naive nonsense about people in China knowing about the Delap throw, or Stoke being the second oldest club in England.
West Brom got bought the other week. Burnley, Southampton, Leicester, Wolves, and Bournemouth have all been bought in recent times. Some may have been purchased when their stock was much higher than ours is right now but you'd hardly describe any of those as glamour clubs. In fact, most of them are very similar in stature and history as Stoke City FC. The kicker however is, as you point out, the phenomenal cost involved given that the club is laden with debt due to the Coates spectacular mismanagement over the past 7 years that's required them to pump in vast quantities of cash to cover their own mistakes. If they really love the club as much as I'm continually told though, surely they'd wipe those debts to make the club a more saleable prospect? What's your solution to all this? The owners have shown no inkling towards bringing in outside 'help' or appointing a team of professionals who know what they're doing to run the club for them whilst they just sign the cheques. Nor does it look like they're willing to sell up. So what do we do then? Just keep being 'forever grateful' that the club is kept from going out of business, even though that club could very well be in the fucking National League in a few seasons time due to the Coates incompetence? We could look at some of our peers who aren't Wolves and Leicester. Here are a few teams who ditched their beloved local owners for questionable investment that has tanked their previously well-run club: Birmingham Blackburn Huddersfield Sheffield Wednesday West Brom (who knows what the new owners will do, but the Chinese owners were not exactly a success) Swansea (a funny one because they have done all of the things that many of our supporters wanted our owners to do and are every bit as bad as us) Reading Portsmouth Wigan All of whom have spent at least a small part of the last decade wondering if they'll even have a club left at the end of their owners' tenure. Plus you have a team like Sunderland, who chased consecutive owners out of the club and are massively turning on their current owners. I read in last week's Private Eye about the chequered history of Everton's prospective buyer. Even Burnley's situation was financially messy and saw them relegated right after the takeover. I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't think that the original post answered question 5 at all. Second Division football clubs are loss-making black holes and I can't really think of why anybody would be willing to chuck cash into ours without some ulterior motive.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 20:24:59 GMT
The debt does make it less of an attractive prospect and probably shrinks the number of potential buyers, for sure. I'm not having it that, even in the state the club is in right now, it's completely unsaleable. If, in the unlikely event of the Coates putting the club up for sale tomorrow, I'm absolutely certain that there'd be interested parties. It's an interesting debate and I agree with Paul that I don't think they'd be too keen to wipe the debt completely clean. There would definitely be a certain level of 'smacked arse' to the negotiations around what would be a very sore point both personally to John and Peter but also throughout the family you'd think. That in itself is interesting as the debt has been accrued 100% by them through over half a decade of dreadful decision after dreadful decision, and that in itself doesn't lend itself to the mantra that they care deeply about the club and that they are the best owners we could ever wish for, which certain quarters of our fanbase are overly insistent on.
To be fair to the club they would say, that they have in the past wiped off £120 million of the debt and converted other debts into equity, which is good because it means the club aren't directly saddled with them, it is actually the Coates family taking all the risk but on the other hand, it means that the club becomes increasingly more expensive to buy if it was to be put up for sale.
And I'm sure the family would also argue, that that doesn't actually matter because of them being so ridiculously wealthy, the club won't actually ever need to be put up for sale.
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 25, 2024 20:56:07 GMT
West Brom got bought the other week. Burnley, Southampton, Leicester, Wolves, and Bournemouth have all been bought in recent times. Some may have been purchased when their stock was much higher than ours is right now but you'd hardly describe any of those as glamour clubs. In fact, most of them are very similar in stature and history as Stoke City FC. The kicker however is, as you point out, the phenomenal cost involved given that the club is laden with debt due to the Coates spectacular mismanagement over the past 7 years that's required them to pump in vast quantities of cash to cover their own mistakes. If they really love the club as much as I'm continually told though, surely they'd wipe those debts to make the club a more saleable prospect? What's your solution to all this? The owners have shown no inkling towards bringing in outside 'help' or appointing a team of professionals who know what they're doing to run the club for them whilst they just sign the cheques. Nor does it look like they're willing to sell up. So what do we do then? Just keep being 'forever grateful' that the club is kept from going out of business, even though that club could very well be in the fucking National League in a few seasons time due to the Coates incompetence? We could look at some of our peers who aren't Wolves and Leicester. Here are a few teams who ditched their beloved local owners for questionable investment that has tanked their previously well-run club: Birmingham Blackburn Huddersfield Sheffield Wednesday West Brom (who knows what the new owners will do, but the Chinese owners were not exactly a success) Swansea (a funny one because they have done all of the things that many of our supporters wanted our owners to do and are every bit as bad as us) Reading Portsmouth Wigan All of whom have spent at least a small part of the last decade wondering if they'll even have a club left at the end of their owners' tenure. Plus you have a team like Sunderland, who chased consecutive owners out of the club and are massively turning on their current owners. I read in last week's Private Eye about the chequered history of Everton's prospective buyer. Even Burnley's situation was financially messy and saw them relegated right after the takeover. I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't think that the original post answered question 5 at all. Second Division football clubs are loss-making black holes and I can't really think of why anybody would be willing to chuck cash into ours without some ulterior motive. Yet all of those clubs barring Wigan and Reading could be playing at least a level above us next season and in West Brom’s case, two.
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 25, 2024 20:58:21 GMT
It is what it is? Would you be saying the same if we slip down to league 2? Because I genuinely don’t trust them to get league one any different than they have the championship. They’ll just throw more money at more shit thinking it’s the answer. Do we just sit idly by and watch it happen, like we are now? There isn't an alternative. Even if there was mass protests and people on the pitch and in the directors boxes, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. It's a completely different situation now, the value of the club is far too high, for it to be legitimately put on the market, even if the Coates family needed to sell (which they don't). But there is an alternative, they appoint a CEO and a Sporting Director and allow them to sort the mess out. They have all the finances and reach we could ever hope for it just seems like they’re too arrogant to fucking use it in the right way. Go and appoint the best CEO and Sporting Director they can get. We’re still a good project in the right hands. Given the owners wealth.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 21:35:37 GMT
There isn't an alternative. Even if there was mass protests and people on the pitch and in the directors boxes, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. It's a completely different situation now, the value of the club is far too high, for it to be legitimately put on the market, even if the Coates family needed to sell (which they don't). But there is an alternative, they appoint a CEO and a Sporting Director and allow them to sort the mess out. They have all the finances and reach we could ever hope for it just seems like they’re too arrogant to fucking use it in the right way. Go and appoint the best CEO and Sporting Director they can get. We’re still a good project in the right hands. Given the owners wealth. The reason you want him out is because he's rubbish at making appointments and your solution to the problem, is to encourage him to make even more appointments? Okay then ...
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 25, 2024 21:49:18 GMT
But there is an alternative, they appoint a CEO and a Sporting Director and allow them to sort the mess out. They have all the finances and reach we could ever hope for it just seems like they’re too arrogant to fucking use it in the right way. Go and appoint the best CEO and Sporting Director they can get. We’re still a good project in the right hands. Given the owners wealth. The reason you want him out is because he's rubbish at making appointments and your solution to the problem, is to encourage him to make even more appointments? Okay then ... I’ve not said I want him out. I’ve repeatedly said on this board for the last 2 years that the ideal scenario is the one I described above. But I do also think there would be life after the Coates, which you don’t agree with. Not sure why you have to be so difficult during these discussions, it’s a weird flex. They’d obviously need help, bring in an outside consultant to help them employ the best available. Surely you agree? Or do you think John should remain in total control falling for snake oil salesmen time and time again?
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Post by peterthornesboots on Feb 25, 2024 22:01:48 GMT
From established Premier League club to League One in seven years.
It is a shame that Netflix did not come knocking on our door! 😅
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 25, 2024 22:03:47 GMT
From established Premier League club to League One in seven years. It is a shame that Netflix did not come knocking on our door! 😅 The could’ve titled it “what’s all the fuss about?”
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 22:04:01 GMT
The reason you want him out is because he's rubbish at making appointments and your solution to the problem, is to encourage him to make even more appointments? Okay then ... I’ve not said I want him out. I’ve repeatedly said on this board for the last 2 years that the ideal scenario is the one I described above. But I do also think there would be life after the Coates, which you don’t agree with. Not sure why you have to be so difficult during these discussions, it’s a weird flex. They’d obviously need help, bring in an outside consultant to help them employ the best available. Surely you agree? Or do you think John should remain in total control falling for snake oil salesmen time and time again? You don't want him out? You literally said that the post advocating them selling the club was the 'post of the decade' And I'm not being difficult, I'm holding a mirror up to your opinions, which I don't think hold water and don't reflect the reality of the situation. As for them "obviously needing help and bringing in an outside consultant to help them employ the best available" ... isn't that EXACTLY what he did with Martin and Dublin? And look how that's turned out! It's completely illogical to suggest that he's rubbish at making appointments, so the solution must be for him to make yet more appointments.
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Post by march4 on Feb 25, 2024 22:09:53 GMT
Who is going to buy us - Carol Shanahan? Perhaps the Icelanders will come back for a couple of seasons. How about a Robbie Williams consortium - Aha and Adrian Lewis are Stoke fans, they could join him. How about that bloke at Reading, he might fancy a change of scene? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Getting rid of the Coates family would be the single most crazy thing our club has ever done. So you're saying that there'd be not one person or entity in the entire world who'd be interested in purchasing Stoke City FC? Can you explain how you can be so certain of this that you (and many others) repeat it as if it is immutable fact? Didn't think so. Nope. Not one suitable person.
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Post by peterthornesboots on Feb 25, 2024 22:10:35 GMT
From established Premier League club to League One in seven years. It is a shame that Netflix did not come knocking on our door! 😅 The could’ve titled it “what’s all the fuss about?” A few of us were discussing this yesterday actually ... ... it feels like ever since Peter came out with that statement we have just been in terminal decline.
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 25, 2024 22:17:10 GMT
I’ve not said I want him out. I’ve repeatedly said on this board for the last 2 years that the ideal scenario is the one I described above. But I do also think there would be life after the Coates, which you don’t agree with. Not sure why you have to be so difficult during these discussions, it’s a weird flex. They’d obviously need help, bring in an outside consultant to help them employ the best available. Surely you agree? Or do you think John should remain in total control falling for snake oil salesmen time and time again? You don't want him out? You literally said that the post advocating them selling the club was the 'post of the decade' And I'm not being difficult, I'm holding a mirror up to your opinions, which I don't think hold water and don't reflect the reality of the situation. As for them "obviously needing help and bringing in an outside consultant to help them employ the best available" ... isn't that EXACTLY what he did with Martin and Dublin? And look how that's turned out! It's completely illogical to suggest that he's rubbish at making appointments, so the solution must be for him to make yet more appointments. The original post never states he wants Coates out, he’s just providing counter arguments to the forever grateful clan. Ricky martin was appointed on the advice of the manager. Only at stoke city does the manager appoint the technical director, I warned at the time it was a massively backwards decision. How is it illogical to suggest that they get outside help to help them make the appointments because they’ve made such a balls up of it almost every time for the last 7 years. Surely that’s common sense?
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 25, 2024 22:17:47 GMT
The could’ve titled it “what’s all the fuss about?” A few of us were discussing this yesterday actually ... ... it feels like ever since Peter came out with that statement we have just been in terminal decline. The rot had already set in Tbf but yeah that is true.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 22:22:13 GMT
You don't want him out? You literally said that the post advocating them selling the club was the 'post of the decade' And I'm not being difficult, I'm holding a mirror up to your opinions, which I don't think hold water and don't reflect the reality of the situation. As for them "obviously needing help and bringing in an outside consultant to help them employ the best available" ... isn't that EXACTLY what he did with Martin and Dublin? And look how that's turned out! It's completely illogical to suggest that he's rubbish at making appointments, so the solution must be for him to make yet more appointments. How is it illogical to suggest that they get outside help to help them make the appointments because they’ve made such a balls up of it almost every time for the last 7 years. Surely that’s common sense? It's illogical because the people who you accuse of making a balls up of appointments for the last seven years, are, drum roll ... the very same people who will be making the appointment that you believe gives you your solution.
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 25, 2024 22:27:51 GMT
How is it illogical to suggest that they get outside help to help them make the appointments because they’ve made such a balls up of it almost every time for the last 7 years. Surely that’s common sense? It's illogical because the people who you accuse of making a balls up of appointments for the last seven years, are, drum roll ... the very same people who will be making the appointment that you believe gives you your solution. Ive said multiple times they’d need to get outside help to help identify and interview the best available candidates. Which part of that do you not understand and keep ignoring? It’s bizarre.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 25, 2024 22:34:55 GMT
It's illogical because the people who you accuse of making a balls up of appointments for the last seven years, are, drum roll ... the very same people who will be making the appointment that you believe gives you your solution. Ive said multiple times they’d need to get outside help to help identify and interview the best available candidates. Which part of that do you not understand and keep ignoring? It’s bizarre. So how do they identify who should give them the outside help to help identify and interview the best possible candidates? With respect, I think it's your position that is actually bizarre. The process surely has to begin with a personnel decision made by the Coates family, doesn't it?
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Post by thehoof on Feb 25, 2024 22:51:24 GMT
Who is going to buy us - Carol Shanahan? Perhaps the Icelanders will come back for a couple of seasons. How about a Robbie Williams consortium - Aha and Adrian Lewis are Stoke fans, they could join him. How about that bloke at Reading, he might fancy a change of scene? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Getting rid of the Coates family would be the single most crazy thing our club has ever done. So you're saying that there'd be not one person or entity in the entire world who'd be interested in purchasing Stoke City FC? Can you explain how you can be so certain of this that you (and many others) repeat it as if it is immutable fact? Didn't think so. Tell us someone who would ?
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Post by ChesterStokie on Feb 25, 2024 22:56:47 GMT
Ive said multiple times they’d need to get outside help to help identify and interview the best available candidates. Which part of that do you not understand and keep ignoring? It’s bizarre. So how do they identify who should give them the outside help to help identify and interview the best possible candidates? With respect, I think it's your position that is actually bizarre. The process surely has to begin with a personnel decision made by the Coates family. No it doesn’t. The family just need to find out which are the best / most expensive recruitment consultants in the world (I’m sure Denise would help John with that) and turn over the whole recruitment process for CEO and DOF to them and then pay their bill at the end of the process.
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