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Post by RF10 on Nov 5, 2023 10:50:16 GMT
I hate it and although we are not where I would to be I'm thankful it's not part of the Championship, even if that's means refs being shit.
It's not resolving issues as it should with constant debate over whether the VAR team have come to correct decision. The clear and obvious error has just not been used.
Irrespective of whether they gets every decision correct it ruins the general emotion too with fans and players not really able to let their emotions fully go after a goal is given with the fear of it being overturned. That said I could probably accept this even if I dislike it. Penalties, red cards etc are a no go for me and should never be reviewed with decisions being made by onfield officials.
Sadly it will never be removed now as it's world wide and for Premier League to say no would criticised for its ability not to make it work.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 5, 2023 11:04:34 GMT
I think there should be two possible outcomes, both of which would be satisfactory imo.
First, keep VAR and continue to improve it. It's a fact that it's getting more decisions right than wrong whereas previously there were loads of errors highlighted every week. Needs speeding up and the clear and obvious error aspect should be applied to offsides too, not the ridiculous millimetre judgements currently used.
Second, get rid of it but also everybody subsequently agrees not to scrutinise decisions. Pundits, tv and newspapers don't highlight any mistakes by the officials, it's just accepted that these things happen, they always have and always will. No freeze frames, no super slo-mo, no conversation about refereeing or linesman mistakes.
I could happily accept both outcomes. Currently, we're obviously closer to the top one albeit without a speedy, pragmatic, common sense version of VAR.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 5, 2023 11:05:50 GMT
The game is too quick for officials these days
It's not the 1980s when the fastest player on the pitch was a 30 year old with the build 0f Elmo from Brush Strokes
Too much at stake also. Just needs to be sped up
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Nov 5, 2023 11:06:24 GMT
Its making too many mistakes, it's like an AI Ref.
It needs to be used only on certain areas like checking to see if the ball crossed the goal line.
The way it's going, it will be checking everything, from throw ins, free kicks etc.
It will be like watching sterilised football, where every touch of the ball is Scrutinised,
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 5, 2023 11:16:50 GMT
Its making too many mistakes, it's like an AI Ref. It needs to be used only on certain areas like checking to see if the ball crossed the goal line. The way it's going, it will be checking everything, from throw ins, free kicks etc. It will be like watching sterilised football, where every touch of the ball is Scrutinised, It won't. It's only ever going to be for directly 'game-changing' incidents. Offside and handball penalties are the two areas that need work imo. Seen some ridiculously soft penalties where the 'offender' had absolutely no intention to handle the ball or even where the ball was and it's been awarded. On offside, you're asking linos to make a judgment on a sprinting player while keeping an eye on precisely when the ball was played from potentially the other half of the pitch. If you want to make VAR more reflective of the realities of the speed of the game some element of a clear and obvious mistake needs to be introduced. Forwards who are roughly in line with the last defender should be considered onside even if their leg is offside.
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Post by PotterLog on Nov 5, 2023 13:12:30 GMT
There is a negative, cognitive bias with all of this. No-one praises it when it makes the correct decisions. It doesn't sell newspapers or grab headlines. It's like customer service. When it is going well, very few people write glowing reviews. Yet if a service is poor, item not received etc, all hell breaks loose - people complain, write negative reviews all over the internet etc. I love VAR. Overall the decisions are better. Yes there is controversy. This is as a result of the decisions being better, the few mistakes stand out more in the the higher level of scrutiny We are in the 21st century, all other sports incorporate similar technology successfully and football can improve too. It just about better training. The cognitive bias thing is a great point that I always think about linos anyway, regardless of VAR. People gripe about them but the number of times they get tight offside decisions correct while running down the line at full pelt is amazing. After being very VAR-sceptic at the beginning I’m just about in favour of it although it needs to be constantly reviewed and improved.. the thing is there aren’t any easy answers. It’s easy to say things like “if it’s not clear after 30 seconds…” but you have to really think through the practicalities.. think of the extra pressure that puts on the VARs to decide quickly whether something is “clear” (defined how?) or not, for example, and the extra errors and uncertainty that could lead to. With offsides it’s similar. I still hate these toenail-length offsides that goals get ruled out for, but how can you resolve that if the tech is there to get the decision right? Especially given that with such tight decisions it’s basically a lottery which way the on-field liner calls it. One thing I definitely think needs looking at is the protocols of the decision-makers. On that released audio from the incorrect offside decision against Liverpool a couple of weeks ago it seemed to me they were really not following any verbal protocols to check that everyone was on the same page - I was expecting an almost air traffic control style interaction where each party confirms what the original decision was, how and why it’s changed etc before a formal handover back to the ref, but it was all very informal and hasty, and it was easy to see how they got confused when there was no standardised script in place to double-check everything. I definitely agree the genie is out of the bottle whatever happens, it ain’t going anywhere now.
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sevvy
Youth Player
Posts: 340
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Post by sevvy on Nov 5, 2023 14:06:34 GMT
Its making too many mistakes, it's like an AI Ref. It needs to be used only on certain areas like checking to see if the ball crossed the goal line. The way it's going, it will be checking everything, from throw ins, free kicks etc. It will be like watching sterilised football, where every touch of the ball is Scrutinised, It won't. It's only ever going to be for directly 'game-changing' incidents. Offside and handball penalties are the two areas that need work imo. Seen some ridiculously soft penalties where the 'offender' had absolutely no intention to handle the ball or even where the ball was and it's been awarded. On offside, you're asking linos to make a judgment on a sprinting player while keeping an eye on precisely when the ball was played from potentially the other half of the pitch. If you want to make VAR more reflective of the realities of the speed of the game some element of a clear and obvious mistake needs to be introduced. Forwards who are roughly in line with the last defender should be considered onside even if their leg is offside. Agree with this. Change the law so that if any part of an attackers body (that they can score with) is onside then a goal is allowed. Only my opinion from games watched, but this would cover about 95% or more of the offsides that are currently assessed and would take seconds to check.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 5, 2023 14:17:37 GMT
It won't. It's only ever going to be for directly 'game-changing' incidents. Offside and handball penalties are the two areas that need work imo. Seen some ridiculously soft penalties where the 'offender' had absolutely no intention to handle the ball or even where the ball was and it's been awarded. On offside, you're asking linos to make a judgment on a sprinting player while keeping an eye on precisely when the ball was played from potentially the other half of the pitch. If you want to make VAR more reflective of the realities of the speed of the game some element of a clear and obvious mistake needs to be introduced. Forwards who are roughly in line with the last defender should be considered onside even if their leg is offside. Agree with this. Change the law so that if any part of an attackers body (that they can score with) is onside then a goal is allowed. Only my opinion from games watched, but this would cover about 95% or more of the offsides that are currently assessed and would take seconds to check. Someone suggested the other day on the radio that only your feet can be offside, ie your boots. Could work. An arm or shoulder etc shouldn't count
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Post by cvillestokie on Nov 5, 2023 14:18:01 GMT
How do you feel about it? For or against? Please give reasons for your viewpoint. Also, I know this is difficult, but please try and avoid being partisan. It was hilarious when Chelsea had that equaliser riled out in the cup final but try and avoid those feelings in response. 🙂 I think that the laws of the game need to catch up to VAR. Offside is a good example. The whole point was to stop people standing in the box all game and gaining unfair advantages. How much of an advantage is there is your left arse cheek is offside? If they want to make it more precise, then the laws of the game should be altered to keep it reasonable (i.e., whole body offside (or 50%)). Edit: apologies. This was covered above. I should have just read the thread in full and liked the comment.
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Post by RF10 on Nov 5, 2023 14:54:11 GMT
/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1720897608942588199¤tTweetUser=fezzaNUFC1996
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Post by PotterLog on Nov 5, 2023 14:55:58 GMT
How do you feel about it? For or against? Please give reasons for your viewpoint. Also, I know this is difficult, but please try and avoid being partisan. It was hilarious when Chelsea had that equaliser riled out in the cup final but try and avoid those feelings in response. 🙂 I think that the laws of the game need to catch up to VAR. Offside is a good example. The whole point was to stop people standing in the box all game and gaining unfair advantages. How much of an advantage is there is your left arse cheek is offside? If they want to make it more precise, then the laws of the game should be altered to keep it reasonable (i.e., whole body offside (or 50%)). Edit: apologies. This was covered above. I should have just read the thread in full and liked the comment. And then the problem with changing the rules to suit VAR is that 99% of football matches played don’t use it
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Post by JoeinOz on Nov 6, 2023 7:47:05 GMT
Thank you for your replies on this. Good points made all round. 👍
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Post by scfcno1fan on Nov 6, 2023 7:52:39 GMT
The premise is the fine. The application is not.
It stems back to the quality of the referees.
Supply just isn’t there. So there is no competition, no real threat of anything happening if they do a poor job.
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4372stokie
Lads'n'Dads
I cried when he left
Posts: 66
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Post by 4372stokie on Nov 6, 2023 8:06:09 GMT
This is an easy one. Football is not and never can be perfect. There is always opinion. The VAR ‘experiment’ has proven that now beyond doubt. Its intention was to remove controversy, its 100% failed to do that and therefore it itself is a failure. That is not even to mention the travesty of taking away fans’ instant enjoyment of a goal. It has to go and go forever. Whatever and however they look to improve or change it will not change the fact that it will still get things wrong in somebody’s ‘opinion’ And as for lines on offsides… don’t even start me
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Post by tuum on Nov 6, 2023 8:13:10 GMT
The game is too quick for officials these days It's not the 1980s when the fastest player on the pitch was a 30 year old with the build 0f Elmo from Brush Strokes Too much at stake also. Just needs to be sped up Have 2 refs. One in each half.. or give the linesman more resposibility. I don't like VAR but it doesn't impact me in any way. It's here to stay so may as well try and make it work better. I am ok with refs being shite. It makes the games more interesting. Rugby is having a similar debate at the moment.
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Post by jesusmcmuffin on Nov 6, 2023 8:36:21 GMT
The game is too quick for officials these days It's not the 1980s when the fastest player on the pitch was a 30 year old with the build 0f Elmo from Brush Strokes Too much at stake also. Just needs to be sped up Have 2 refs. One in each half.. or give the linesman more resposibility. I don't like VAR but it doesn't impact me in any way. It's here to stay so may as well try and make it work better. I am ok with refs being shite. It makes the games more interesting. Rugby is having a similar debate at the moment. I suggested the same last year actually , yep could work. VAR is ok inPrinciple. If something isn't obvious straight away on screen then play on would be my take on it though.
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Post by scfcnicholas on Nov 6, 2023 8:40:20 GMT
Massively improved decision accuracy and its factual the stats back it up. Proving people will moan their absolute tits off regardless and is why half the criticisms should be taken with a pinch of a salt. There’s always a crisis going on according to some wankers. Pundits don’t help the nonsense either . Implementation of it needs improving though
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Post by Scouse on Nov 6, 2023 8:55:16 GMT
I think there should be two possible outcomes, both of which would be satisfactory imo. First, keep VAR and continue to improve it. It's a fact that it's getting more decisions right than wrong whereas previously there were loads of errors highlighted every week. Needs speeding up and the clear and obvious error aspect should be applied to offsides too, not the ridiculous millimetre judgements currently used. Second, get rid of it but also everybody subsequently agrees not to scrutinise decisions. Pundits, tv and newspapers don't highlight any mistakes by the officials, it's just accepted that these things happen, they always have and always will. No freeze frames, no super slo-mo, no conversation about refereeing or linesman mistakes. I could happily accept both outcomes. Currently, we're obviously closer to the top one albeit without a speedy, pragmatic, common sense version of VAR. I agree , but getting rid on the grounds you suggest is unlikely to happen … the problem there is the likes of Sky love hype and controversy .not least because they have hours and hours of programming to fill , and fill cheaply to balance the huge amounts they pay for live screening of sport .. they fill this by having people and entire programmes talking garbage ( often endlessly ) they know it’s filler and they know it’s garbage , so they have to find a hook .. that hook is hype and controversy They do it with the transfer window , they do it with VAR and they do it with referring decisions in general .. to stop it would probably require a ruling by ofcom ..that’s not going to happen as they’d probably contest any ruling in the courts as being in the public ‘interest’ ..VAR is almost built for the likes of Sky if it’s to be scrapped , be brave and scrap it on the grounds that a) it doesn’t work b ) it stops the natural flow of the game
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Post by Edward Tattsyrup on Nov 6, 2023 8:55:28 GMT
set a time limit. if the VAR official can't clear it up after 90 seconds, it's not a clear and obvious error so stick with the on field officials decision.
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Post by Scouse on Nov 6, 2023 8:56:43 GMT
I think there should be two possible outcomes, both of which would be satisfactory imo. First, keep VAR and continue to improve it. It's a fact that it's getting more decisions right than wrong whereas previously there were loads of errors highlighted every week. Needs speeding up and the clear and obvious error aspect should be applied to offsides too, not the ridiculous millimetre judgements currently used. Second, get rid of it but also everybody subsequently agrees not to scrutinise decisions. Pundits, tv and newspapers don't highlight any mistakes by the officials, it's just accepted that these things happen, they always have and always will. No freeze frames, no super slo-mo, no conversation about refereeing or linesman mistakes. I could happily accept both outcomes. Currently, we're obviously closer to the top one albeit without a speedy, pragmatic, common sense version of VAR. I agree , but getting rid on the grounds you suggest is unlikely to happen … the problem there is the likes of Sky love hype and controversy .not least because they have hours and hours of programming to fill , and fill cheaply to balance the huge amounts they pay for live screening of sport .. they fill this by having people and entire programmes talking garbage ( often endlessly ) they know it’s filler and they know it’s garbage , so they have to find a hook .. that hook is hype and controversy They do it with the transfer window , they do it with VAR and they do it with referring decisions in general .. to stop it would probably require a ruling by ofcom ..that’s not going to happen as they’d probably contest any ruling in the courts as being in the public ‘interest’ ..VAR is almost built for the likes of Sky .. and sadly at the end of the day many fans like something to moan about too if it’s to be scrapped , be brave and scrap it on the grounds that a) it doesn’t work b ) it stops the natural flow of the game
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Post by idle on Nov 6, 2023 8:58:09 GMT
Decisions should be left to the ref regarding fouls & offside. Goal line technology is black & white and is a good thing. VAR has taken away the old post match talking points and debate, although it has introduced a different kind of discussion that we are having now. VAR should only be used to identify cheats, divers & con artists imo. Yeah, I agree. But it isn't always so black&white with regards to goal line tech. Remember at Watford when Bursik(?) was pushed into the net by a Watford player that beeped on the GLT clock of the ref and he approved the goal?
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Post by werrington on Nov 6, 2023 9:03:32 GMT
Let’s be brutally honest here and accept it’s not going away ever as it’s not just in England, it’s right across the world now
It’s original aim was to stop clear offsides and nobody honestly thought it would be used for toenail offsides or soft penalties
It’s a farce but it’s a farce that’s here to stay and is now a part of football just like throw ins or corner kicks are
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 6, 2023 9:08:16 GMT
Let’s be brutally honest here and accept it’s not going away ever as it’s not just in England, it’s right across the world now It’s original aim was to stop clear offsides and nobody honestly thought it would be used for toenail offsides or soft penalties It’s a farce but it’s a farce that’s here to stay and is now a part of football just like throw ins or corner kicks are Sadly mate you are correct and listening to Connor Coady on 5live on the way to the game on Saturday he says give him Championship football any day of the week because of no VAR,sounds like a lot of players are sick of it also
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Post by idle on Nov 6, 2023 9:21:28 GMT
The game is too quick for officials these days It's not the 1980s when the fastest player on the pitch was a 30 year old with the build 0f Elmo from Brush Strokes Too much at stake also. Just needs to be sped up Have 2 refs. One in each half.. or give the linesman more resposibility. I don't like VAR but it doesn't impact me in any way. It's here to stay so may as well try and make it work better. I am ok with refs being shite. It makes the games more interesting. Rugby is having a similar debate at the moment. Two refs is the best solution IMO. Like in handball, one ref stands behind/at the side of the goal and one moves up when a team attacks. Keep the linos and find a better use for the 4th ref than the stupid "holding up a board showing added time" and subs thing they do now. VAR has glaring problems: - takes too much time. Reduce the time (to 30-60sec) and people will complain they got it wrong after they've looked at it for half and hour. One game in Norway took freaking 7 minutes to decide that the lino was right all along (with the added injury that this wasn't recorded as a "VAR decision"). The tempo of the game was completely ruined!
- it makes the refs worse. They're no longer scared of doing the wrong thing (VAR will catch it) and the VAR refs are just as bad as the on-pitch ref. It also reduces the linos to mere spectators.
- VAR has made rule changes that was totally unnessecary. Other have mentioned the handball rule, who no-one understands anymore, and the offside rule that used to be "did he get an advantage by being offside?" and "if usure, give the benefit of the doubt to the attackers" was way more in line with a game played in tempo. Which leads to:
- VAR makes the game a more "stop-start"-affair than it used to be (and was the beauty of football). Football isn't rugby, it isn't american handegg and it sure isn't like baseball. VAR kills the flow of the game.
- It's hideously expensive. The PL has enough money, but a 5-7-camera production costs ~£0.5M per game. And that is so few cameras the video refs are marginally more correct than the on-pitch ref. In some cases they're more wrong! (I know this, we have the "Aldi-VAR" in Norway.)
- Even if you have several cameras, offside decisions (with the new rules) go awry because of the technical limitations of cameras. The more zoom the more curve, leading to lines being drawn that don't correspond to the real world.
- While they do make a few more decisions technically correct, they also make unitelligeble errors (see VAR in the PL). And this is with a shitload of cameras. English refs have always been poor compared to say German, and this really shows in the VAR rooms.
- It has done absolutely NOTHING to curb the big club bias, on the contrary it seems worse than ever. We still have Fergie time for the big 7, we still have "not clear and obvious enough" when refusing to look at penalty desicions for the smaller clubs.
- And most importantly: IT MAKES ME WARY OF CELEBRATING A GOAL! The immediate euphoria is lost, as you're never sure if it will be a goal or if VAR has seen something 2 minutes ago. When watching games in Norway, my number of "mental" celebrations have gone way down. I just can't be arsed because som dude behind a screen says the striker grabbed the wingbacks arse while going past him. Fuck that! And no, celebrating a VAR decision is not the same. If you think so, you've never been on a terrace with the other fans. You're a TV/youtube idiot.
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Post by werrington on Nov 6, 2023 9:32:36 GMT
2 refs one in each half would end up in a farce also
One ref might give a penalty and then up at the other end the other ref won’t for the same offence
There is no solution to anything in regards all of this
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Post by tuum on Nov 6, 2023 11:08:43 GMT
2 refs one in each half would end up in a farce also One ref might give a penalty and then up at the other end the other ref won’t for the same offence There is no solution to anything in regards all of this You don't need two refs for that type of inconsistency. One ref is plenty already.
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Post by tuum on Nov 6, 2023 11:14:49 GMT
set a time limit. if the VAR official can't clear it up after 90 seconds, it's not a clear and obvious error so stick with the on field officials decision. I would make it even more stringent. 30secs is plenty. If you can't spot an obvious error in 30 secs then the original decision stands. Not going to happen though. Once you give people technology they tend to over-analyse.
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Post by idle on Nov 6, 2023 11:16:45 GMT
set a time limit. if the VAR official can't clear it up after 90 seconds, it's not a clear and obvious error so stick with the on field officials decision. I would make it even more stringent. 30secs is plenty. If you can't spot an obvious error in 30 secs then the original decision stands. Not going to happen though. Once you give people technology they tend to over-analyse. Doesn't matter. The moment is still ruined with 30 seconds.
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Post by clintonbaptiste on Nov 6, 2023 11:18:47 GMT
On top of VAR, has the standard of refereeing in the Premier League ever been as poor?
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Post by tuum on Nov 6, 2023 11:19:13 GMT
Massively improved decision accuracy and its factual the stats back it up. Proving people will moan their absolute tits off regardless and is why half the criticisms should be taken with a pinch of a salt. There’s always a crisis going on according to some wankers. Pundits don’t help the nonsense either . Implementation of it needs improving though Obviously it improves decision accuracy but I am not arsed about that. I like the emotion of football. Part of being a football fan is losing 5-0 at home and sitting in the pub afterwards moaning that the 4th goal was offside and the player who scored the 5th shouldn't even have been on the pitch.. the dirty, clogging ******!
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