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Post by dirtygary69 on Apr 4, 2024 10:41:38 GMT
I don't think he'd work as a wide forward. His strength is ghosting forward, making an extra man for defences to deal with. He's the best bet for the run-in, even if Junior gets fit he should be used sparingly. Stability in the back four plus Iversen will be key I think. Hopefully Stevens can also stay fit for the last 6, or at least start 5 of them (rest for midweek v Swansea). In a side almost entirely devoid of goal threat, Hoever chipping in with 1 or 2 more might make all the difference. I'd also keep Baker starting for the same reason - he might just do a key set piece or score from range). I agree. Shoving someone further forward because they are better at attacking isn't the answer. I used to hate it personally when I had to play right midfield/wing rather than right back, because you're used to playing the game in front of you. Playing further forward means you are often in a static position and running from a higher, wider position. Hoever is good at running from deeper positions and overlapping which wouldn't happen as a winger. He's had good games for us at right back, right wing back and even centre back, so the notion that he "can't defend" is a bit of a nonsense. I am not suggesting he's had a good season, and at some points he's been absolutely terrible defensively (as well as going forwards). I think there are enough positives about him to keep him here beyond this season, but I do think it might be at a cost that we probably can't afford, or if you have got the funds, you'd pump it into another area we are lacking in.
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Hoever
Apr 4, 2024 12:57:46 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 4, 2024 12:57:46 GMT
I don't think he'd work as a wide forward. His strength is ghosting forward, making an extra man for defences to deal with. He's the best bet for the run-in, even if Junior gets fit he should be used sparingly. Stability in the back four plus Iversen will be key I think. Hopefully Stevens can also stay fit for the last 6, or at least start 5 of them (rest for midweek v Swansea). In a side almost entirely devoid of goal threat, Hoever chipping in with 1 or 2 more might make all the difference. I'd also keep Baker starting for the same reason - he might just do a key set piece or score from range). I agree. Shoving someone further forward because they are better at attacking isn't the answer. I used to hate it personally when I had to play right midfield/wing rather than right back, because you're used to playing the game in front of you. Playing further forward means you are often in a static position and running from a higher, wider position. Hoever is good at running from deeper positions and overlapping which wouldn't happen as a winger. He's had good games for us at right back, right wing back and even centre back, so the notion that he "can't defend" is a bit of a nonsense. I am not suggesting he's had a good season, and at some points he's been absolutely terrible defensively (as well as going forwards). I think there are enough positives about him to keep him here beyond this season, but I do think it might be at a cost that we probably can't afford, or if you have got the funds, you'd pump it into another area we are lacking in. He doesn’t know where to stand. He is that bad. But as ever he’s scored a few so he’s the next Cafu. Hilarious stuff.
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Hoever
Apr 4, 2024 12:59:58 GMT
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apb1 likes this
Post by jesusmcmuffin on Apr 4, 2024 12:59:58 GMT
I agree. Shoving someone further forward because they are better at attacking isn't the answer. I used to hate it personally when I had to play right midfield/wing rather than right back, because you're used to playing the game in front of you. Playing further forward means you are often in a static position and running from a higher, wider position. Hoever is good at running from deeper positions and overlapping which wouldn't happen as a winger. He's had good games for us at right back, right wing back and even centre back, so the notion that he "can't defend" is a bit of a nonsense. I am not suggesting he's had a good season, and at some points he's been absolutely terrible defensively (as well as going forwards). I think there are enough positives about him to keep him here beyond this season, but I do think it might be at a cost that we probably can't afford, or if you have got the funds, you'd pump it into another area we are lacking in. He doesn’t know where to stand. He is that bad. But as ever he’s scored a few so he’s the next Cafu. Hilarious stuff. No one called him that but is hilarious 🤷
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Hoever
Apr 4, 2024 13:01:51 GMT
Post by apb1 on Apr 4, 2024 13:01:51 GMT
No-one is saying he's Cafu. Ridiculous to suggest it when almost any halfway positive post suggests he's a mixed bag. *All* our defenders are objectively poor, in fact the whole team are pretty bad which is why we're in the dogfight.. Stevens was awful v QPR for example, and the CB pairing always give me the heebie-geebies. If you think he's best replaced by someone, fair enough, make a case for it (Wilmot perhaps? but don't get carried away with how good any replacement would be, and engage in constructive comment not ridiculous exaggeration.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Apr 4, 2024 13:10:53 GMT
I agree. Shoving someone further forward because they are better at attacking isn't the answer. I used to hate it personally when I had to play right midfield/wing rather than right back, because you're used to playing the game in front of you. Playing further forward means you are often in a static position and running from a higher, wider position. Hoever is good at running from deeper positions and overlapping which wouldn't happen as a winger. He's had good games for us at right back, right wing back and even centre back, so the notion that he "can't defend" is a bit of a nonsense. I am not suggesting he's had a good season, and at some points he's been absolutely terrible defensively (as well as going forwards). I think there are enough positives about him to keep him here beyond this season, but I do think it might be at a cost that we probably can't afford, or if you have got the funds, you'd pump it into another area we are lacking in. He doesn’t know where to stand. He is that bad. But as ever he’s scored a few so he’s the next Cafu. Hilarious stuff. I don't get why the scoring part doesn't seem to count though? Doesn't it fit the narrative? It'd be nice if some other players could chip in with what he has. We might not have to rely on defending so much if that was the case. He isn't half as bad as what some are suggesting. He has good attributes and bad ones, like everyone.
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Post by apb1 on Apr 4, 2024 13:19:43 GMT
Took a few minutes to have a look at his record this season. Record when not playing P5 W0 D1 L4 F4 A10 Pts 1 When subbed on P5 W0 D1 L4 F5 A12 Pts 1 When starting P30 W12 D7 L11 F29 A32 Pts 43 All 11 clean sheets he started the game, and played full game in all but one (where he played 80 minutes). All 12 wins he was in the starting XI. 3rd highest goals, 4th highest assists in the shitshow that is our attacking record. We all know stats can be misleading...and as *everyone* acknowledges, he has been comedically bad on occasions. I just don't get why he's worse than the rest. www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ki-jana-hoever/leistungsdaten/spieler/485583/saison/2023/plus/1#gesamt
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Apr 5, 2024 6:37:26 GMT
I was thinking in the front 3 in a 433 His strength though is to use his speed and control as an overlapping full back. He is not an out and out winger or wide forward. His role is just fine as long as he has a player in front of him who links well with him. His best games are as a full back and he has the athleticism to get back just needs to remember to get back on the goal side. It will come with experience. He would be a great acquisition in the summer. Hoever learned his game at Liverpool as an understudy to TAA. The fullback role used by Liverpool is incredibly hard to pull off and as others have pointed out requires world class centre backs and DMs to work. We don't have that and are very unlikely to get players of that calibre to make it work. Hoever hasn't been trained to play as a conventional defender and to me doesn't look to have the natural instincts of a defender. He is pretty good at what he does but to be honest I don't think the role he is supposed to play has much of a shelf life - it's too hard to pull off on a consistent basis and is way to easy to exploit if it isn't spot on. I think the role will quietly disappear as an historical novelty act. I don't think Hoever has the skillset to ever become a more conventional defender and he's missed out on the vital early training to provide the foundation for becoming a specialist in that role. Junior looks to have more potential to me - he gets forward but looks like a defender. I'd rather we brought in a solid experienced defender (a less injury prone Stevens) who can challenge Junior and help him learn his trade.
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Hoever
Apr 5, 2024 7:34:21 GMT
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Post by lordb on Apr 5, 2024 7:34:21 GMT
His strength though is to use his speed and control as an overlapping full back. He is not an out and out winger or wide forward. His role is just fine as long as he has a player in front of him who links well with him. His best games are as a full back and he has the athleticism to get back just needs to remember to get back on the goal side. It will come with experience. He would be a great acquisition in the summer. Hoever learned his game at Liverpool as an understudy to TAA. The fullback role used by Liverpool is incredibly hard to pull off and as others have pointed out requires world class centre backs and DMs to work. We don't have that and are very unlikely to get players of that calibre to make it work. Hoever hasn't been trained to play as a conventional defender and to me doesn't look to have the natural instincts of a defender. He is pretty good at what he does but to be honest I don't think the role he is supposed to play has much of a shelf life - it's too hard to pull off on a consistent basis and is way to easy to exploit if it isn't spot on. I think the role will quietly disappear as an historical novelty act. I don't think Hoever has the skillset to ever become a more conventional defender and he's missed out on the vital early training to provide the foundation for becoming a specialist in that role. Junior looks to have more potential to me - he gets forward but looks like a defender. I'd rather we brought in a solid experienced defender (a less injury prone Stevens) who can challenge Junior and help him learn his trade. Hoever played centre back in his youth team days Probably why he defends better there than at right back No chance we will sign him permanently given his wages
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Post by nottsover60 on Apr 5, 2024 8:32:07 GMT
Sounds like Schumacher is a fan www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-kijana-hoever-wolves-9206664I know his wages at the moment are too high for the Championship but I can't imagine he will want to go back to be understudy at Wolves so it depends what other clubs will offer. We seem to forget that £40k is an astronomical wage and half that is more than most people need to live on. At 22 he should feel he needs to be somewhere he'll get playing time. Mind you he might decide he'd rather be somewhere he doesn't get abuse every home match.
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Hoever
Apr 5, 2024 9:14:27 GMT
Post by Staffsoatcake on Apr 5, 2024 9:14:27 GMT
I wouldn't have him back,yes he scores the odd goal,but how many goals has he cost us because of his poor defending?
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Hoever
Apr 5, 2024 10:00:18 GMT
Post by xchpotter on Apr 5, 2024 10:00:18 GMT
Has the ability without doubt, but lacks the focus and consistency right now. Could it be an age thing, could he mature…quite possibly as he has age on his side. However, that is very much a sliding timescale and I reckon he has another season at best to remove these errors ( they aren’t minor ones, they are catastrophically bad flaws leading to direct goal scoring opportunities)….if he can’t he will start to fall down the leagues. Hope it works out for him and hopefully at Stoke, but if someone came in right now who was a steadier and more reliable right back I’d take them over him all day long.
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Hoever
Apr 6, 2024 0:10:22 GMT
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Post by cvillestokie on Apr 6, 2024 0:10:22 GMT
Sounds like Schumacher is a fan www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-kijana-hoever-wolves-9206664I know his wages at the moment are too high for the Championship but I can't imagine he will want to go back to be understudy at Wolves so it depends what other clubs will offer. We seem to forget that £40k is an astronomical wage and half that is more than most people need to live on. At 22 he should feel he needs to be somewhere he'll get playing time. Mind you he might decide he'd rather be somewhere he doesn't get abuse every home match. He can go on loan to Europe again and ride out his contract. If he’s still shit at the end of that, he could end up back in the Championship on a lesser wage. Why would he reduce a massive contract when loans are always available?
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Hoever
Apr 6, 2024 11:07:18 GMT
Post by nottsover60 on Apr 6, 2024 11:07:18 GMT
Sounds like Schumacher is a fan www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stoke-city-kijana-hoever-wolves-9206664I know his wages at the moment are too high for the Championship but I can't imagine he will want to go back to be understudy at Wolves so it depends what other clubs will offer. We seem to forget that £40k is an astronomical wage and half that is more than most people need to live on. At 22 he should feel he needs to be somewhere he'll get playing time. Mind you he might decide he'd rather be somewhere he doesn't get abuse every home match. He can go on loan to Europe again and ride out his contract. If he’s still shit at the end of that, he could end up back in the Championship on a lesser wage. Why would he reduce a massive contract when loans are always available? I think you need to look at the careers of players who perpetually go out on loan like Lewis Baker and various others. I think it is rare for a player to have a Premier career if they are still going out on loan in their mid twenties. If Hoever can have another couple of years at Stoke where he is getting regular game time and learning a system and finding out what he has to do then he will get a move to a Premier team by 25 with a view to playing rather than being a squad player. In my opinion it is short term loss in terms of wages for long term gains. It's not as if Stoke players are on the breadline. It is a short career but now, far more than in the past there are opportunities in football for ex players to earn good money. Clinton Morriston is a good example of someone who is doing better now than he did as a player.
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 6, 2024 11:12:18 GMT
Can't see us investing a substantial sum on another right-back, with £1m+ invested in Tchamadeu, with so many other areas needing to be plugged.
Even if we were able to get him on loan again, we probably need to decide if we're going to go all-in with Tchamadeu - and one of them would need to be the main man, and it'd need to be our player.
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Hoever
Apr 6, 2024 11:25:08 GMT
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Post by lordb on Apr 6, 2024 11:25:08 GMT
Can't see us investing a substantial sum on another right-back, with £1m+ invested in Tchamadeu, with so many other areas needing to be plugged. Even if we were able to get him on loan again, we probably need to decide if we're going to go all-in with Tchamadeu - and one of them would need to be the main man, and it'd need to be our player. Unless Junior was moved to left back? But agree looks unlikely go and sign an actual left back (& another if not keeping Stevens) and don't sign Hoever
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Hoever
Apr 6, 2024 11:30:22 GMT
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Post by cvillestokie on Apr 6, 2024 11:30:22 GMT
He can go on loan to Europe again and ride out his contract. If he’s still shit at the end of that, he could end up back in the Championship on a lesser wage. Why would he reduce a massive contract when loans are always available? I think you need to look at the careers of players who perpetually go out on loan like Lewis Baker and various others. I think it is rare for a player to have a Premier career if they are still going out on loan in their mid twenties. If Hoever can have another couple of years at Stoke where he is getting regular game time and learning a system and finding out what he has to do then he will get a move to a Premier team by 25 with a view to playing rather than being a squad player. In my opinion it is short term loss in terms of wages for long term gains. It's not as if Stoke players are on the breadline. It is a short career but now, far more than in the past there are opportunities in football for ex players to earn good money. Clinton Morriston is a good example of someone who is doing better now than he did as a player. Why take the risk (us, or him)? He’s not very good. If he was good enough to one day make it to the PL, his next loan would be back to a decent European team who then pay to retain his services rather than to cancel his contract early. Post-retirement, there are far less opportunities than as a player (even if there are now more than there used to be). At worst, he could ride out his Wolves contract, then move somewhere back to Europe on a decent salary and live off that. Baker isn’t a good example of anything other than Chelsea’s stranglehold and shady dealings on the loan market.
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Apr 6, 2024 11:45:23 GMT
It would be a ridiculous signing, even on loan.
Literally the only position where we don't need to bring someone in.
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Post by clintonbaptiste on Apr 6, 2024 11:49:47 GMT
I think it’s a no brainer for a million, he can certainly improve defensively and I’m sure he will. I’m yet to be convinced Tchamadeu is the long term answer at RB, he’s positive but the games before his injury he was very sloppy in his play but there’s a good prospect there for sure, but the jury is out for me.
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Post by lordb on Apr 6, 2024 11:52:46 GMT
I think it’s a no brainer for a million, he can certainly improve defensively and I’m sure he will. I’m yet to be convinced Tchamadeu is the long term answer at RB, he’s positive but the games before his injury he was very sloppy in his play but there’s a good prospect there for sure, but the jury is out for me. Regardless of the fee he's on £40k a week we absolutely are not buying him
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Hoever
Apr 6, 2024 11:53:52 GMT
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Post by thornestein on Apr 6, 2024 11:53:52 GMT
I think it’s a no brainer for a million, he can certainly improve defensively and I’m sure he will. I’m yet to be convinced Tchamadeu is the long term answer at RB, he’s positive but the games before his injury he was very sloppy in his play but there’s a good prospect there for sure, but the jury is out for me. Regardless of the fee he's on £40k a week we absolutely are not buying him he can’t defend so no way we should be buying him
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Hoever
Apr 6, 2024 11:57:27 GMT
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Apr 6, 2024 11:57:27 GMT
I think it’s a no brainer for a million, he can certainly improve defensively and I’m sure he will. I’m yet to be convinced Tchamadeu is the long term answer at RB, he’s positive but the games before his injury he was very sloppy in his play but there’s a good prospect there for sure, but the jury is out for me. The jury's still out on Hoever, despite him having over a year to improve. Absolutely love him when he's having a good game, and under different circumstances I'd take him at a sensible price/wage, but I can't see how we could justify it this summer. Junior was poor since returning from AFCON, buthe showed enough pre-January to deserve a proper go before we piss more money up the wall on Hoever.
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Hoever
Apr 8, 2024 19:00:05 GMT
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Post by Marc01 on Apr 8, 2024 19:00:05 GMT
Haven’t watched this yet…
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Hoever
Apr 11, 2024 9:30:52 GMT
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Post by misterj on Apr 11, 2024 9:30:52 GMT
Feel this guy is NOT a RB. He’s not a defender …. Period. When he first came here he was used as RWB and RW, looked comfortable, efficient, quite athletic couple of assists couple of goals. Hence we went in for him again, but now at RB he looks nervous, uncertain, loses his man - yes the goal v Huddersfield was top drawer but we’d be seeing that quite often if he was played as RWB or RW
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Hoever
Apr 11, 2024 9:50:32 GMT
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Post by StokieDJC on Apr 11, 2024 9:50:32 GMT
The amount times yesterday where he had no clue where the left winger was is frightening.
Their winger didn’t have to do anything fancy, he just walked behind.
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Hoever
Apr 11, 2024 9:53:09 GMT
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Post by swampySCFC on Apr 11, 2024 9:53:09 GMT
Took a few minutes to have a look at his record this season. Record when not playing P5 W0 D1 L4 F4 A10 Pts 1 When subbed on P5 W0 D1 L4 F5 A12 Pts 1 When starting P30 W12 D7 L11 F29 A32 Pts 43 All 11 clean sheets he started the game, and played full game in all but one (where he played 80 minutes). All 12 wins he was in the starting XI. 3rd highest goals, 4th highest assists in the shitshow that is our attacking record. We all know stats can be misleading...and as *everyone* acknowledges, he has been comedically bad on occasions. I just don't get why he's worse than the rest. www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ki-jana-hoever/leistungsdaten/spieler/485583/saison/2023/plus/1#gesamtQuite right. At the moment he looks to be our main attacking threat which says it all
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Hoever
Apr 11, 2024 10:13:55 GMT
Post by Staffsoatcake on Apr 11, 2024 10:13:55 GMT
Hoever,if you had one word to describe him,it would have to be,WANK.
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