|
Post by spitthedog on Apr 10, 2022 22:10:05 GMT
A more complex comparison was made and discussed at length, a few months ago. Mowbray's Blackburn were being put forward as to how it's best to approach a long term project, but it could be said it's equally flawed given they're not tearing up any trees since then. Sometimes the best way to get somewhere is to ride the crest of a big enough wave, like Leicester did. A manager can have a huge effect very quickly if they create a good wave that transfers inspiration to their team. Blackburn have finished 15th - 11th - 15th, so if they do reach the playoffs this season, it's not a bad example of a club sticking with their manager in what is the longer-term by today's standards, especially as they dropped to 15th after a top-half finish. But not forgetting they were in League 1 very recently. There's never a one-fits-all solution/example in football, as there are so many variables - both known and unknown - to consider. They lost their top scorer for a fair few games around Christmas too. In fact they bought Surridge to cover, who's only scored a couple or so ( no surprise there ). They carried on with their run and took it further. Cooper turned things around dramatically for them, that simply cannot be denied. Surridge isn't doing too badly for Forest - he's scored 3 and mostly from sub appearances. He's averaging better than a goal a game based on minutes played. And it seems every season that at least one team has a good run in the second half of the season that gets them into or close to the playoffs. I'm not surprised Surridge is doing ok there, he's playing with better players and getting better service than he did here.
|
|
|
Post by mowlee on Apr 11, 2022 9:35:38 GMT
Blackburn have finished 15th - 11th - 15th, so if they do reach the playoffs this season, it's not a bad example of a club sticking with their manager in what is the longer-term by today's standards, especially as they dropped to 15th after a top-half finish. But not forgetting they were in League 1 very recently. There's never a one-fits-all solution/example in football, as there are so many variables - both known and unknown - to consider. Surridge isn't doing too badly for Forest - he's scored 3 and mostly from sub appearances. He's averaging better than a goal a game based on minutes played. And it seems every season that at least one team has a good run in the second half of the season that gets them into or close to the playoffs. I'm not surprised Surridge is doing ok there, he's playing with better players and getting better service than he did here. so do u think mon would have them in 3rd in league with the players they have if he was in charge at forest
|
|
|
Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 11, 2022 9:46:56 GMT
I'm not surprised Surridge is doing ok there, he's playing with better players and getting better service than he did here. so do u think mon would have them in 3rd in league with the players they have if he was in charge at forest Doubt it very much as MON is far more similar in style and adversity to risk to Hughton than he is to Cooper. Whatever happens in the promotion race Cooper's managerial credentials have gone through the roof with the difference he's made at Forest.
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 10:01:11 GMT
Peterborough were a bit of an exaggeration. However let’s not focus on this analogy. Are you also one of the opinion that a manager coming in to take over a club rooted to the bottom off the table and very likely to be relegated would be in the championship playoffs within 2 and a half seasons of a new manager taking over? This is while also having to compete with reducing the wage bill substantially and making a profit in the transfer market. The funny thing is right….. Our squad when MON took over is a lot closer to Peterborough’s than Bayerns fantasy top 6 team. So once again reinforcing the financial restrictions which MON has been dealt and that many of you like to pretend didn’t exist. Please tell me where this top 6 squad was coming from? Or I presume you’re suggesting the squad at the time of take over was strong enough to challenge because you’re hardly going to improve it much with FFP issues. So which players did we not get the most out of? And are now proving their worth elsewhere because the manager wasn’t able to get the best out of them. Let me know out of this top 6 squad he inherited: Butland - PL Bench warmer and that the whole fan base turned on? Afobe - Signed for £14 million and hasn’t scored more than 10 goals in a season in 6 years. Ince- Anothee £10 million signing now in a relegation battle with reading Vokes - £7 million wardrobe now in league one Woods - £5 million and now bottom half championship player Etebo - £6.5 million now he could make a difference but didn’t want to play for us. McClean, batth, Gregory, clucas, shawcroas, ward, verlinden, Lindsay, cousins etc etc the list goes on. Even looking back to the squad that got relegated. Which players from that team are or have been plying their trade at a level better than Stoke? Zouma, choupo-moting, Jesé, pieters, Shaqiri and now I’m struggling. So I’m sorry but the team that got relegated wasn’t strong enough to bounce back up, the team after rowetts incomings/outgoings was even worse, and the same goes for the squad MON inherited from NJ. And surprisingly a lot of the players which get touted as some of our best on here (Bursik, Souttar, Collins, Tymon, Campbell etc..) are all young players who have been given the most opportunities by MON and also delivered their best performances. Some of the incomings haven’t been the best but on the whole they’ve been improvements on what was here when MON came in. And when you’re shopping in the bargain bucket you are going to have to take a gamble and not every signing will work out. But the young players that have been given opportunities have improved and increased in value. Similarly a number of signings have improved and increased in value since arriving - Thompson, brown, baker, DWP etc.. And of course some signings just haven’t worked out either but they defo hasn’t been disastrous. Surridge probably being the biggest disappointment of the lot for me. And for what it’s worth. With the squad we have this season we should be much higher up the table. Particularly November through to February have been awful, just like last season when we had the same issue in that spell. And while I can cut some slack due to injuries and misfortune at times. It’s still not been good enough. And for a period I doubted whether MON could turn it around, and I still do have my doubts. But with that said: - It’s ridiculous to expect and think we’d be in the playoffs within 2 1/2 seasons of Michael taking over. - That hope of the playoffs has came due to the miracle of us staying in the division 19/20. - Every player that has been sold has been the correct decision so far imo. - The majority of signings have been an improvement on what we have. - I think if we were to sell the players MON bought we’d have a profit. Unlike his predecessors were we made huge losses on our assets With that said. We now do have a much stronger squad and we should be higher in the table, and with the right signings we really should be challenging or more for the playoffs next season. I think the manager still has a lot to learn too and has used questionable tactics, players and substitutions on a number of occasions. Sometimes these have paid off, but not so much this year. Michael O’Neil in. two words.. Notts Forest Nottingham Forest have had 26 managers in the last 20 years trying to get up, before getting lucky with Cooper. 2 of his best 3 players are loans, and one is going back to Man. U. Be interesting to see how they do if they go up. Anyone like to go that road.
|
|
|
Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 11, 2022 10:07:04 GMT
Nottingham Forest have had 26 managers in the last 20 years trying to get up, before getting lucky with Cooper. 2 of his best 3 players are loans, and one is going back to Man. U. Be interesting to see how they do if they go up. Anyone like to go that road. In a fucking heartbeat.
|
|
|
Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Apr 11, 2022 10:11:50 GMT
so do u think mon would have them in 3rd in league with the players they have if he was in charge at forest Doubt it very much as MON is far more similar in style and adversity to risk to Hughton than he is to Cooper. Whatever happens in the promotion race Cooper's managerial credentials have gone through the roof with the difference he's made at Forest. That's the short-termism of football. So did O'Neill's when he kept us up... I'd be taking Cooper's managerial career to date into account where he's done a good job wherever he's been as far as I can see. Swansea fans were criticising Cooper despite his team reaching the playoffs in his first season then losing in the playoff final last season. Swansea are just above us, so this season, Swansea's loss looks like Forest's gain. Also what independent says above about Forest perhaps finally striking lucky with a manager. I think O'Neill has a good record wherever he's been too, despite this season being disappointing even taking into account the injuries and player turnaround.
|
|
|
Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Apr 11, 2022 10:16:18 GMT
I'm just looking at Forest's managers over the past few years, and it's ridiculous how little time Forest give managers - plenty who many Stoke fans would be happy to see here. Hughton, Martin O'Neill, Karanka...
|
|
|
Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 11, 2022 10:17:24 GMT
Doubt it very much as MON is far more similar in style and adversity to risk to Hughton than he is to Cooper. Whatever happens in the promotion race Cooper's managerial credentials have gone through the roof with the difference he's made at Forest. That's the short-termism of football. So did O'Neill's when he kept us up... I'd be taking Cooper's managerial career to date into account where he's done a good job wherever he's been as far as I can see. Swansea fans were criticising Cooper despite his team reaching the playoffs in his first season then losing in the playoff final last season. Swansea are just above us, so this season, Swansea's loss looks like Forest's gain. Also what independent says above about Forest perhaps finally striking lucky with a manager. I think O'Neill has a good record wherever he's been too, despite this season being disappointing even taking into account the injuries and player turnaround. MON doesn't have a good record wherever he's been because he hasn't been at any other significant club and his experience with NI scraping draws and scrappy wins and generally keeping the score down is not compatible with a club that wants to be at the top of the championship.
|
|
|
Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 11, 2022 10:18:40 GMT
I'm just looking at Forest's managers over the past few years, and it's ridiculous how little time Forest give managers - plenty who many Stoke fans would be happy to see here. Hughton, Martin O'Neill, Karanka... Very few I would think they're all boring defensive dinosaurs.
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 10:27:19 GMT
so do u think mon would have them in 3rd in league with the players they have if he was in charge at forest Doubt it very much as MON is far more similar in style and adversity to risk to Hughton than he is to Cooper. Whatever happens in the promotion race Cooper's managerial credentials have gone through the roof with the difference he's made at Forest. Very Very True. It could be said that Hughton assembled most of that side for him, but he got them playing. Hope they get up as it would be very interesting to see how he would fare in the Premiership. We seem to have a lot of desperate posters on here who go for whoever is flavour of the month at the moment as our next manager. Lots of clubs including Sheffield Utd. and Middlesborough who were looking for a manager,could have signed him , but they didn't. So it wasn't as obvious then that he would be successful. Forest were in dire straits having only won one game, if i remember correctly. So they gambled, gave him a few bob and it came up trumps. Interesting that one of their better players was gotten on loan from Middlesborough.
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 10:28:39 GMT
Nottingham Forest have had 26 managers in the last 20 years trying to get up, before getting lucky with Cooper. 2 of his best 3 players are loans, and one is going back to Man. U. Be interesting to see how they do if they go up. Anyone like to go that road. In a fucking heartbeat. you mean sign 26 managers before getting a good one.
|
|
|
Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 11, 2022 10:42:27 GMT
you mean sign 26 managers before getting a good one. Our own strike rate isn't too hot either. I really don't get attached to them, if the club is well run they're just another employee. A fresh voice is nothing to fear as long as that voice is bought in to work to a given blueprint rather than each one bringing his own.
|
|
|
Post by Pugsley on Apr 11, 2022 10:49:19 GMT
you mean sign 26 managers before getting a good one. Forest aren't going up anyway, Boro will because Wilder is the best manager ever in the Championship... or is it Luton with Jones? No can't be, Robbins with Coventry is the best...
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 11:18:41 GMT
Why don't we just sign up the four of them and make sure of promotion.
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 11:32:33 GMT
you mean sign 26 managers before getting a good one. Our own strike rate isn't too hot either. I really don't get attached to them, if the club is well run they're just another employee. A fresh voice is nothing to fear as long as that voice is bought in to work to a given blueprint rather than each one bringing his own. It seems the way to go in our present position. But what would the Blueprint they gave to MON have looked like?
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 11:45:34 GMT
I'm sure the brief they gave him was: 1. Save us from relegation 2. Reduce our wage bill by 40 million a year and keep us within FFP 3. Get us promoted before your contract ends. 4. By the way there is no cash available. I understand the brief, I would love to see the Blueprint.
|
|
|
Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 11, 2022 11:55:45 GMT
Our own strike rate isn't too hot either. I really don't get attached to them, if the club is well run they're just another employee. A fresh voice is nothing to fear as long as that voice is bought in to work to a given blueprint rather than each one bringing his own. It seems the way to go in our present position. But what would the Blueprint they gave to MON have looked like? I don't think they do. They pick a manager without considering their footballing philosophy or style and give them carte blanche and everytime the part ways its like the old king is dead long live the new king. In short I think it's complete bollocks, the club should recruit a manager/head coach to suit an ethos that they impose not vise versa. Obviously I'd like that to be a far more attacking, free scoring, less cautious, less defensive vision than seems to be their taste. personally think that's their problem they can't see the wood for the trees, defensive football isn't enjoying much success anywhere and hasn't done for years.
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 11:58:33 GMT
I agree they don't. But if they were using your suggested method at the time, what do you think the blueprint would have looked like? We can all name our aspirations. But what methodology do we use to achieve them?
|
|
|
Post by dirtygary69 on Apr 11, 2022 12:00:10 GMT
It seems the way to go in our present position. But what would the Blueprint they gave to MON have looked like? I don't think they do. They pick a manager without considering their footballing philosophy or style and give them carte blanche and everytime the part ways its like the old king is dead long live the new king. In short I think it's complete bollocks, the club should recruit a manager/head coach to suit an ethos that they impose not vise versa. Obviously I'd like that to be a far more attacking, free scoring, less cautious, less defensive vision than seems to be their taste. personally think that's their problem they can't see the wood for the trees, defensive football isn't enjoying much success anywhere and hasn't done for years. MON isn't a defensive manager. He's not gung-ho, but I wouldn't describe him as defensive.
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 12:28:38 GMT
It seems the way to go in our present position. But what would the Blueprint they gave to MON have looked like? I don't think they do. They pick a manager without considering their footballing philosophy or style and give them carte blanche and everytime the part ways its like the old king is dead long live the new king. In short I think it's complete bollocks, the club should recruit a manager/head coach to suit an ethos that they impose not vise versa. Obviously I'd like that to be a far more attacking, free scoring, less cautious, less defensive vision than seems to be their taste. personally think that's their problem they can't see the wood for the trees, defensive football isn't enjoying much success anywhere and hasn't done for years. I've seen a lot of this type of talk from other clubs. Let's take Ipswich as an example. Mad Mick was given no money to spend and forced to sell his best players, but didn't get the transfer fees to spend. He kept Ipswich in the Championship for years playing the most dour,unattractive football that is possible. The fans said they would rather be relegated playing a nicer brand of football than watch what was on show. So they replaced Mad Mick with their version of Nathan Jones, a manager thriving in League One. They gave him a lot of money to spend, I think he bought 9 players and got them relegated. They are on their sixth manager and now appear to finally have a good one, but they are still in League One. I'm sure the fans have been really happy over the last 4 years. Hopefully their purgatory will end next year but there is no guarantee of that.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 11, 2022 12:34:52 GMT
I don't think they do. They pick a manager without considering their footballing philosophy or style and give them carte blanche and everytime the part ways its like the old king is dead long live the new king. In short I think it's complete bollocks, the club should recruit a manager/head coach to suit an ethos that they impose not vise versa. Obviously I'd like that to be a far more attacking, free scoring, less cautious, less defensive vision than seems to be their taste. personally think that's their problem they can't see the wood for the trees, defensive football isn't enjoying much success anywhere and hasn't done for years. I've seen a lot of this type of talk from other clubs. Let's take Ipswich as an example. Mad Mick was given no money to spend and forced to sell his best players, but didn't get the transfer fees to spend. He kept Ipswich in the Championship for years playing the most dour,unattractive football that is possible. The fans said they would rather be relegated playing a nicer brand of football than watch what was on show. So they replaced Mad Mick with their version of Nathan Jones, a manager thriving in League One. They gave him a lot of money to spend, I think he bought 9 players and got them relegated. They are on their sixth manager and now appear to finally have a good one, but they are still in League One. I'm sure the fans have been really happy over the last 4 years. Hopefully their purgatory will end next year but there is no guarantee of that. Mick McCarthy could have Man City's budget and he'd still play the same way, the majority of managers don't change their spots whatever their budget. More than one side with less resources than our own have built more enterprising sides that are above us in the league.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2022 12:43:34 GMT
I don't think they do. They pick a manager without considering their footballing philosophy or style and give them carte blanche and everytime the part ways its like the old king is dead long live the new king. In short I think it's complete bollocks, the club should recruit a manager/head coach to suit an ethos that they impose not vise versa. Obviously I'd like that to be a far more attacking, free scoring, less cautious, less defensive vision than seems to be their taste. personally think that's their problem they can't see the wood for the trees, defensive football isn't enjoying much success anywhere and hasn't done for years. MON isn't a defensive manager. He's not gung-ho, but I wouldn't describe him as defensive. He isn't defensive or negative as many would have you believe. It's one of the myths about him, along with him being "massively" out of his depth.
|
|
|
Post by brotherleelove on Apr 11, 2022 12:44:50 GMT
I've seen a lot of this type of talk from other clubs. Let's take Ipswich as an example. Mad Mick was given no money to spend and forced to sell his best players, but didn't get the transfer fees to spend. He kept Ipswich in the Championship for years playing the most dour,unattractive football that is possible. The fans said they would rather be relegated playing a nicer brand of football than watch what was on show. So they replaced Mad Mick with their version of Nathan Jones, a manager thriving in League One. They gave him a lot of money to spend, I think he bought 9 players and got them relegated. They are on their sixth manager and now appear to finally have a good one, but they are still in League One. I'm sure the fans have been really happy over the last 4 years. Hopefully their purgatory will end next year but there is no guarantee of that. Mick McCarthy could have Man City's budget and he'd still play the same way, the majority of managers don't change their spots whatever their budget. More than one side with less resources than our own have built more enterprising sides that are above us in the league. So Mick McC wouldn't play any different if he had had about £250 million to spend on players.
|
|
|
Post by brotherleelove on Apr 11, 2022 12:45:38 GMT
Don't fink so.
|
|
|
Post by dirtygary69 on Apr 11, 2022 12:52:19 GMT
MON isn't a defensive manager. He's not gung-ho, but I wouldn't describe him as defensive. He isn't defensive or negative as many would have you believe. It's one of the myths about him, along with him being "massively" out of his depth. Nope. If anything, he's inflexible and struggles to break down teams that just come to defend against us. I don't think there's many times he picks a "negative" side. The midfielders he signs rarely suggest he favours a defensive side.
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 13:02:44 GMT
I've seen a lot of this type of talk from other clubs. Let's take Ipswich as an example. Mad Mick was given no money to spend and forced to sell his best players, but didn't get the transfer fees to spend. He kept Ipswich in the Championship for years playing the most dour,unattractive football that is possible. The fans said they would rather be relegated playing a nicer brand of football than watch what was on show. So they replaced Mad Mick with their version of Nathan Jones, a manager thriving in League One. They gave him a lot of money to spend, I think he bought 9 players and got them relegated. They are on their sixth manager and now appear to finally have a good one, but they are still in League One. I'm sure the fans have been really happy over the last 4 years. Hopefully their purgatory will end next year but there is no guarantee of that. Mick McCarthy could have Man City's budget and he'd still play the same way, the majority of managers don't change their spots whatever their budget. More than one side with less resources than our own have built more enterprising sides that are above us in the league. you may/may not be right about Mad Mick. regarding other clubs , come back in a years time and let's see where we all are . Regarding resources, I would say with similar resources as we have had nothing to spend really.Was it last year Reading were challenging for promotion, now they are looking to avoid relegation with a possible points deduction next year for FFP.
|
|
|
Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 11, 2022 13:04:17 GMT
I don't think they do. They pick a manager without considering their footballing philosophy or style and give them carte blanche and everytime the part ways its like the old king is dead long live the new king. In short I think it's complete bollocks, the club should recruit a manager/head coach to suit an ethos that they impose not vise versa. Obviously I'd like that to be a far more attacking, free scoring, less cautious, less defensive vision than seems to be their taste. personally think that's their problem they can't see the wood for the trees, defensive football isn't enjoying much success anywhere and hasn't done for years. MON isn't a defensive manager. He's not gung-ho, but I wouldn't describe him as defensive. Maybe the wrong choice of words he's very safe, cautious, mundane, not very adventourous, sets out to keep games tight, his teams play the ball rather slowly to try to cut down on mistakes. Choose a better word/s to describe that then I can live with it. I know it's not very exciting to watch to me. I'd much prefer to see a team that shows more urgency, moves the ball faster, gets the ball back into play faster(throw ins mainly & keeper), scores more goals, wins more games by wider margins. I don't know what the exact correct choice of words is but I do know it's almost the polar opposite of what I want to watch.
|
|
|
Post by independent on Apr 11, 2022 13:07:56 GMT
Energetic, Attacking or Dynamic might do. Any sign of that Blueprint?
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 11, 2022 13:36:31 GMT
Mick McCarthy could have Man City's budget and he'd still play the same way, the majority of managers don't change their spots whatever their budget. More than one side with less resources than our own have built more enterprising sides that are above us in the league. So Mick McC wouldn't play any different if he had had about £250 million to spend on players. No. Neither would Pulis. Precious few managers do.
|
|
|
Post by The Toxic Avenger on Apr 11, 2022 13:39:25 GMT
Mick McCarthy could have Man City's budget and he'd still play the same way, the majority of managers don't change their spots whatever their budget. More than one side with less resources than our own have built more enterprising sides that are above us in the league. you may/may not be right about Mad Mick. regarding other clubs , come back in a years time and let's see where we all are . Regarding resources, I would say with similar resources as we have had nothing to spend really.Was it last year Reading were challenging for promotion, now they are looking to avoid relegation with a possible points deduction next year for FFP. We've had what, about £4-5m all told? I reckon that's more than, say, Huddersfield or Luton have had. I'm not sure what you mean by 'come back in a year's time', we're talking about the here and now? Of course loads can change in a year, clubs will sell or lose players and managers, circumstances change, the end of cycles are sometimes reached.
|
|