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Post by hughjarse on Jun 19, 2021 19:56:18 GMT
Seen a number of negative comments about him on different threads. Approx one year ago I sat down to watch an England friendly and realised that I "just didn't get" Declan Rice and decided to watch him instead of the game. I discovered that 1) He reads a game exceptionally well, 2) As a defensive midfielder he breaks up play before it reaches the centre halves (yes that's his job but he's good at it). 3) When he receives the ball he always looks to drive forward or looks for a forward pass. Ever since then I have kept one eye on him when watching England and he rarely makes a mistake. Definitely part of the solution and not part of the problem.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jun 19, 2021 19:59:02 GMT
I'm a big fan and he's improved an awful lot this past year. However, he was pretty garbage and risk averse last night. I suppose Phillips out of the 2 should be more progressive with the ball so I'd replace him with Bellingham and keep Rice.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 19, 2021 20:16:15 GMT
I really like him as a player and thought he was great against Croatia but not convinced he was needed last night and there’s an argument that Phillips can do what he can and more.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 20:53:38 GMT
He's a good player who loves sitting and protecting the back four.
Let him do that, and pick 5 players alongside him and ahead of him who love to hurt the opposition, let your full backs give you some genuine width and "Robert's yer mothers brother".
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Post by thehoof on Jun 19, 2021 20:59:29 GMT
He certainly didn’t drive forward or look to pass it forward last night. My friend is a Hammers fan and swears by him Personally I still don’t get him- he’s nothing like a Busquets or Kante; if we play him we shouldn’t play Henderson or Phillips because the ball doesn’t move forward quickly enough. I would probably prefer him to Henderson or Phillips; although I think longer term Bellingham may well offer more.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 21:04:16 GMT
He certainly didn’t drive forward or look to pass it forward last night. My friend is a Hammers fan and swears by him Personally I still don’t get him- he’s nothing like a Busquets or Kante; if we play him we shouldn’t play Henderson or Phillips because the ball doesn’t move forward quickly enough. I would probably prefer him to Henderson or Phillips; although I think longer term Bellingham may well offer more. Kante is on a different planet to any "defensive midfielder" though to be fair, he is on a level all on his own.
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Post by maninasuitcase on Jun 19, 2021 21:34:14 GMT
Hes good with Declan Sweet and Sour Chicken.
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Post by dirtclod on Jun 19, 2021 22:20:30 GMT
Name sounds like an alternative to brown or white.
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Post by maninasuitcase on Jun 19, 2021 23:45:21 GMT
Name sounds like an alternative to brown or white. What about basmati?
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Post by march4 on Jun 19, 2021 23:59:23 GMT
He is a totally anonymous player.
Might as well have played our two games in the tournament with 10 men.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2021 0:27:19 GMT
I think he’s very necessary in the midfield. You need someone in that three who can break up play. He becomes an easy boo boy.
What England don’t have is a player who looks up and tries to make balls through. What’s the point of Sterling’s pace if the ball is passed into his feet?
Players get bigged up in the England team, but it’s De Bruyne that makes Man City tick. English players are too reliant on non-English flair players to get the job done in the big teams. Sterling is a good player, Foden is a good player, but England have no playmaker and so they get the ball in poor positions and do nothing with it.
We have one of the best goalscorers in the world, but then don’t give him the ball in the box.
When was the last time an English team controlled a game and played fluid football against a team that was anywhere near decent?
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Post by march4 on Jun 20, 2021 0:38:32 GMT
I think he’s very necessary in the midfield. You need someone in that three who can break up play. He becomes an easy boo boy. What England don’t have is a player who looks up and tries to make balls through. What’s the point of Sterling’s pace if the ball is passed into his feet? Players get bigged up in the England team, but it’s De Bruyne that makes Man City tick. English players are too reliant on non-English flair players to get the job done in the big teams. Sterling is a good player, Foden is a good player, but England have no playmaker and so they get the ball in poor positions and do nothing with it. We have one of the best goalscorers in the world, but then don’t give him the ball in the box. When was the last time an English team controlled a game and played fluid football against a team that was anywhere near decent? If we need a player who can do the hard work and break up play then let’s put one on the pitch. We certainly haven’t had such a player in our first two games.
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Post by ratters on Jun 20, 2021 1:11:19 GMT
He shouldn't need to be on the pitch against the 3rd worst team in the competition when you have Philips on the pitch and that is the issue. All well and good playing against France for example, be protective, but not in a game like last night.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2021 3:06:44 GMT
He shouldn't need to be on the pitch against the 3rd worst team in the competition when you have Philips on the pitch and that is the issue. All well and good playing against France for example, be protective, but not in a game like last night. The fact that Mount, whose supposed to be a more creative midfielder, created the square root of naff all was much more of a problem for me.
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Post by NassauDave on Jun 20, 2021 3:59:14 GMT
He certainly didn’t drive forward or look to pass it forward last night. My friend is a Hammers fan and swears by him Personally I still don’t get him- he’s nothing like a Busquets or Kante; if we play him we shouldn’t play Henderson or Phillips because the ball doesn’t move forward quickly enough. I would probably prefer him to Henderson or Phillips; although I think longer term Bellingham may well offer more. This is it. England play this negative over protective stance at home ffs. It’s Rice or Phillips or Henderson, not a fucking combo.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 20, 2021 6:48:23 GMT
He shouldn't need to be on the pitch against the 3rd worst team in the competition when you have Philips on the pitch and that is the issue. All well and good playing against France for example, be protective, but not in a game like last night. The fact that Mount, whose supposed to be a more creative midfielder, created the square root of naff all was much more of a problem for me. Likewise I’m baffled by how the performances so far lead to a debate on the DM. The attacking, creative, flair players have all been very underwhelming so far. The balance of the side is fine there are enough attacking players in the team we just need them to click. Mount seems like a bit of a teachers pet.
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Post by damagedswan on Jun 20, 2021 8:36:58 GMT
The fact that Mount, whose supposed to be a more creative midfielder, created the square root of naff all was much more of a problem for me. Likewise I’m baffled by how the performances so far lead to a debate on the DM. The attacking, creative, flair players have all been very underwhelming so far. The balance of the side is fine there are enough attacking players in the team we just need them to click. Mount seems like a bit of a teachers pet. I thought Mount was good against Croatia but poor against Scotland. The formation puts a huge amount of pressure on him to create though - if he's off it, there's no other link between midfield and attack.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 20, 2021 8:39:18 GMT
I think he’s very necessary in the midfield. You need someone in that three who can break up play. He becomes an easy boo boy. What England don’t have is a player who looks up and tries to make balls through. What’s the point of Sterling’s pace if the ball is passed into his feet? Players get bigged up in the England team, but it’s De Bruyne that makes Man City tick. English players are too reliant on non-English flair players to get the job done in the big teams. Sterling is a good player, Foden is a good player, but England have no playmaker and so they get the ball in poor positions and do nothing with it. We have one of the best goalscorers in the world, but then don’t give him the ball in the box. When was the last time an English team controlled a game and played fluid football against a team that was anywhere near decent? If we need a player who can do the hard work and break up play then let’s put one on the pitch. We certainly haven’t had such a player in our first two games. Phillips was excellent against Croatia and Rice very good at doing precisely that I thought? Also thought Phillips was one of our better players against Scotland.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 20, 2021 8:40:56 GMT
The fact that Mount, whose supposed to be a more creative midfielder, created the square root of naff all was much more of a problem for me. Likewise I’m baffled by how the performances so far lead to a debate on the DM. The attacking, creative, flair players have all been very underwhelming so far. The balance of the side is fine there are enough attacking players in the team we just need them to click. Mount seems like a bit of a teachers pet. Not sure about the balance. To me it looks like a defensive side with some quality attack just welded onto it and expected to sort itself out, there's not a lot of cohesion. The full backs so far haven't offered enough going forward, which is part of that, but maybe bringing Maguire back in would help too.
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Post by damagedswan on Jun 20, 2021 8:58:51 GMT
If we need a player who can do the hard work and break up play then let’s put one on the pitch. We certainly haven’t had such a player in our first two games. Phillips was excellent against Croatia and Rice very good at doing precisely that I thought? Also thought Phillips was one of our better players against Scotland. Agree that breaking up the play hasn't massively been a problem. If anything it seemed like Phillips was playing much deeper against Scotland than he was against Croatia, to the detriment of the team's performance.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 20, 2021 10:38:56 GMT
As Toxic has alluded to I think there's potentially a good balance to that team if there's a plan of attack. But there isn't.
That midfield totally nullified a class Croatia midfield and the intention going forward is to keep doing that, but it is reliant on the full backs and the three attackers doing a lot more than what they have
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Post by march4 on Jun 20, 2021 10:46:55 GMT
If we need a player who can do the hard work and break up play then let’s put one on the pitch. We certainly haven’t had such a player in our first two games. Phillips was excellent against Croatia and Rice very good at doing precisely that I thought? Also thought Phillips was one of our better players against Scotland. Didn’t he play further forward to accommodate the anonymous Rice. I agree with you, let’s play Phillips in front of the defence and drop Rice.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 20, 2021 11:13:26 GMT
Phillips was excellent against Croatia and Rice very good at doing precisely that I thought? Also thought Phillips was one of our better players against Scotland. Didn’t he play further forward to accommodate the anonymous Rice. I agree with you, let’s play Phillips in front of the defence and drop Rice. Rice was good against Croatia I thought. Their midfield, the one that dominated us in Russia, caused us no problems whatsoever. He tidied things up nicely. 'Breaking up the play' was the absolute definition of the job he did. I agree he wasn't needed against the Scots and didn't have a lot to do. I wouldn't be against Bellingham playing alongside Phillips as it's probably more multi-faceted.
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Post by march4 on Jun 20, 2021 11:25:08 GMT
Didn’t he play further forward to accommodate the anonymous Rice. I agree with you, let’s play Phillips in front of the defence and drop Rice. Rice was good against Croatia I thought. Their midfield, the one that dominated us in Russia, caused us no problems whatsoever. He tidied things up nicely. 'Breaking up the play' was the absolute definition of the job he did. I agree he wasn't needed against the Scots and didn't have a lot to do. I wouldn't be against Bellingham playing alongside Phillips as it's probably more multi-faceted. Not much to disagree with there!
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Post by ratters on Jun 20, 2021 16:12:39 GMT
He shouldn't need to be on the pitch against the 3rd worst team in the competition when you have Philips on the pitch and that is the issue. All well and good playing against France for example, be protective, but not in a game like last night. The fact that Mount, whose supposed to be a more creative midfielder, created the square root of naff all was much more of a problem for me. Thats got nothing to do with fact you don't need Rice on the pitch against Scotland.
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Post by ratters on Jun 20, 2021 16:17:40 GMT
The fact that Mount, whose supposed to be a more creative midfielder, created the square root of naff all was much more of a problem for me. Likewise I’m baffled by how the performances so far lead to a debate on the DM. The attacking, creative, flair players have all been very underwhelming so far. The balance of the side is fine there are enough attacking players in the team we just need them to click. Mount seems like a bit of a teachers pet. The balance is all wrong against such a poor side. You don't have Rice and Philips against the 3rd worst team in the competition simple as that for me. Your making a rod for your own back setting up so defensive in the first instinct. the attacking players may have been poor and you could equally call to swap them out, but the root cause is a wrong set up against a team you need to attack. Setting up with 2 DM's is the issue, and if its just one Philips does far more than Rice for me especially when the onus is on attack, and being able to cover more ground
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2021 16:22:30 GMT
The fact that Mount, whose supposed to be a more creative midfielder, created the square root of naff all was much more of a problem for me. Thats got nothing to do with fact you don't need Rice on the pitch against Scotland. The fact that they still had a good portion of the best chances of the game suggests that they weren’t as toothless as people like to state. England were crap across the park. I think it’s unreasonable to blame one player, especially given that that player’s inclusion should have given Mount more freedom to express himself. Phillips was supposed to be playing as a box to box, and didn’t play as a defensive mid. Therefore you have one sitting, one in between and one whose supposed to be further forward. The whole team played poorly. For the last decade or more they’ve always played like a group of people who’ve never met, Contrast that to Italy thus far in the tournament, who play as a unit, and you can see why we are crap.
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Post by lordb on Jun 20, 2021 16:26:10 GMT
Likewise I’m baffled by how the performances so far lead to a debate on the DM. The attacking, creative, flair players have all been very underwhelming so far. The balance of the side is fine there are enough attacking players in the team we just need them to click. Mount seems like a bit of a teachers pet. The balance is all wrong against such a poor side. You don't have Rice and Philips against the 3rd worst team in the competition simple as that for me. Your making a rod for your own back setting up so defensive in the first instinct. the attacking players may have been poor and you could equally call to swap them out, but the root cause is a wrong set up against a team you need to attack. Setting up with 2 DM's is the issue, and if its just one Philips does far more than Rice for me especially when the onus is on attack, and being able to cover more ground Phillips was all over the pitch against Croatia, absolutely wasn't playing as DM. Against Scotland he was anonymous so was that simply a poor performance from him or did Southgate give instruction to sit back , or both? Factor in that Rice contributes nothing going forward , two attacking fullbacks who did very little attacking it all ended up as one big stodge As was pointed out earlier in the thread Southgate should have changed things at half time.
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Post by ratters on Jun 20, 2021 18:26:29 GMT
Thats got nothing to do with fact you don't need Rice on the pitch against Scotland. The fact that they still had a good portion of the best chances of the game suggests that they weren’t as toothless as people like to state. England were crap across the park. I think it’s unreasonable to blame one player, especially given that that player’s inclusion should have given Mount more freedom to express himself. Phillips was supposed to be playing as a box to box, and didn’t play as a defensive mid. Therefore you have one sitting, one in between and one whose supposed to be further forward. The whole team played poorly. For the last decade or more they’ve always played like a group of people who’ve never met, Contrast that to Italy thus far in the tournament, who play as a unit, and you can see why we are crap. They are still a poor side, and a side that we are 'supposed' to be should never be concerned with what they may do and set up to play our game and an attacking game. I haven't once blamed the player. He shouldn't been on the pitch, not because it was rice, but because we shouldn't have needed that type of player against the 3rd worst team. It just smacks of no ambition and no attacking intent. Its just the wrong setup completely and doesn't require a Rice, as what he did was offer absolutely nothing as its not his game, and wasn't required, that's not his fault, but crap management
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Post by hughjarse on Jun 20, 2021 18:54:59 GMT
The balance is all wrong against such a poor side. You don't have Rice and Philips against the 3rd worst team in the competition simple as that for me. Your making a rod for your own back setting up so defensive in the first instinct. the attacking players may have been poor and you could equally call to swap them out, but the root cause is a wrong set up against a team you need to attack. Setting up with 2 DM's is the issue, and if its just one Philips does far more than Rice for me especially when the onus is on attack, and being able to cover more ground Phillips was all over the pitch against Croatia, absolutely wasn't playing as DM. Against Scotland he was anonymous so was that simply a poor performance from him or did Southgate give instruction to sit back , or both? Factor in that Rice contributes nothing going forward , two attacking fullbacks who did very little attacking it all ended up as one big stodge As was pointed out earlier in the thread Southgate should have changed things at half time. "Rice contributes nothing going forward" in the same way that Kane offers nothing defensively
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