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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2021 16:06:06 GMT
Strangely enough, I've been watching part of an ITV series starring Martin Freeman as DI Steve Fulcher, the man who apprehended the serial killer, Christopher Halliwell. Your comment on how two wrongs rarely make a right struck a chord. Unfortunately, Fulcher was presented with an awful dilemma of using non-PACE evidence gathering to get Halliwell to confess to where bodies were buried. Which obviously fell apart under legal scrutiny, but in doing so he found the remains of two missing loved ones and probably prevented more killing. It also ended Fulcher's career and has rendered him unemployable in the UK since, as he says himself. You can read the full story here. It makes for an interesting read of the conflict he went through trying to do the right thing, and he himself is very sanguine and fair-minded about the fall out. It really would be an awful position to find yourself in. It's probably very easy to say what you'd do on here, perhaps not quite so easy in the real world. www.theguardian.com/global/2017/jun/25/catching-a-serial-killer-stephen-fulcher-policei’ve seen that. It’s an excellent watch, as you sometimes it’s frustrating for officers as they can be hamstrung between getting justice and sticking to PACE. There’s a lot of guilty people walked free because there’s a missing piece which would secure a charge / conviction. The CPS threshold is very high too which means you can’t gamble on a 50/50 chance. The case almost needs to be watertight. For all we know the officer in the Atkinson case may be a gamble even though it appears straightforward. He may come forwards with a defence that can’t be disproved. Let’s not forget it’s early days. There is a big difference between committing and offence and being guilty of it. The test for a conviction is quite rightly beyond reasonable doubt. That is not the CPS test though. There's, is effectively, is there a reasonable prospect of conviction. If so they will prosecute. To be fair they prosecute 50/50 chances every day. DV assaults being one which is often one word against the others. PACE rarely hampers police investigations. Remember the police are impartial investigators. They should look as favourably on defence evidence as they do prosecution.
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Post by hoffgreen on May 8, 2021 16:43:22 GMT
"British National"
Hmmmm, more narrative pushing BS
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Post by Gods on May 8, 2021 17:30:36 GMT
It must be the dude in the pic they released that they have nicked right? It says 'man in his 20's' as he likely was and they suddenly asked the public to stop trying to identify him presumably because they found out who he was and apprehended at 9:30pm last night? Or is my 'Unforgotten'/'Line of Duty' perfected radar letting me down here
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 10, 2021 21:58:43 GMT
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Post by heworksardtho on May 11, 2021 4:27:17 GMT
21 year old what a waste of two lives very sad indeed
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 11, 2021 6:58:06 GMT
Very sad. You do wonder if he is the murderer of poor Julie what happened to someone of that age to turn them him into a murderer or whether it’s just a reflection of society and how violence has almost become acceptable for some young people. It just feels that in the past people would be shocked by a murder like this which would generally be carried out by some middle aged loner but now it’s almost become part of a daily occurrence which it should never be. Something needs to change.
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Post by Dave the Rave on May 11, 2021 7:30:06 GMT
"British National" Hmmmm, more narrative pushing BS I'm not even sure why the nationality of any murderer is important tbh. If he was Albanian, French, English, Polish, Greek or Brazilian I wouldn't give two flying fucks. What does it add to the story to talk about nationalities?
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Post by chuffedstokie on May 11, 2021 7:40:31 GMT
Very sad. You do wonder if he is the murderer of poor Julie what happened to someone of that age to turn them him into a murderer or whether it’s just a reflection of society and how violence has almost become acceptable for some young people. It just feels that in the past people would be shocked by a murder like this which would generally be carried out by some middle aged loner but now it’s almost become part of a daily occurrence which it should never be. Something needs to change. I guess no one will ever really know what thoughts were going through his head when he woke up that morning but whatever sequence of events followed it's led to a tragic outcome. Robbery gone wrong who knows but the level of violence is beyond extreme. Rational or irrational behaviour this is one extremely dangerous and destructive individual off the streets.
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 11, 2021 8:47:36 GMT
"British National" Hmmmm, more narrative pushing BS I'm not even sure why the nationality of any murderer is important tbh. If he was Albanian, French, English, Polish, Greek or Brazilian I wouldn't give two flying fucks. What does it add to the story to talk about nationalities? It shouldn’t matter one jot. Grouping someone because of their colour, religion, gender or occupation is totally the wrong thing to do as people that commit such vile acts are a very small minority from whatever group they’re from and shouldn’t be judged as being a representative of the large majority. In the end unless they’re part of a cult like Manson or Koresh’s those who kill all make their our own individual decisions and no one makes them for them. Blaming it on their group just gives them a justification when there is none. The problem is that both sides of the spectrum are guilty of trying to blame the larger group rather than just putting it down to the individual.
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 11, 2021 14:42:38 GMT
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9565483/Julia-James-murder-suspect-21-appears-court-time.htmlA very worrying reaction from the suspect. Reminds me a bit of the characters that murdered PC Harper who were laughing and joking when they left court. Is the value of life that cheap? It’s almost like killing someone is less important than the infamy it brings. There seems absolutely no shame whatsoever anymore. It must be awful for Julia’s family and friends seeing the footage.
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Post by Gods on May 11, 2021 20:50:06 GMT
Do we know if the murder suspect is the same dude whose picture the police published a few days ago? I guess it must be, too many coincidences for it to be anyone else.
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 11, 2021 20:56:04 GMT
Do we know if the murder suspect is the same dude whose picture the police published a few days ago? I guess it must be, too many coincidences for it to be anyone else. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/index.htmlbelieve so from the video. Seems to be one big joke to him from the footage.
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Post by metalhead on May 11, 2021 23:01:27 GMT
Do we know if the murder suspect is the same dude whose picture the police published a few days ago? I guess it must be, too many coincidences for it to be anyone else. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/index.htmlbelieve so from the video. Seems to be one big joke to him from the footage. he's a fucking arse.
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 11, 2021 23:13:53 GMT
You’re not wrong. Total disrespect for a life. I know we don’t agree on a lot of things but to take anyone’s life is the worst thing in the world. Somewhere over the last 10-20 years somethings gone very wrong in this country to devalue life so much especially when you see people losing loved ones through illness when they’re powerless to stop it happening. Life’s so precious and people choosing to snuff others lives out with no apparent thought is so sad. Not just poor Julia but the many more that we read or hear about way to frequently. Political views aside something has to change about young people’s thought process and common decency and fast. The powers that be need to stop coasting and put some strong links and investment into the communities.
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Post by metalhead on May 12, 2021 5:35:51 GMT
You’re not wrong. Total disrespect for a life. I know we don’t agree on a lot of things but to take anyone’s life is the worst thing in the world. Somewhere over the last 10-20 years somethings gone very wrong in this country to devalue life so much especially when you see people losing loved ones through illness when they’re powerless to stop it happening. Life’s so precious and people choosing to snuff others lives out with no apparent thought is so sad. Not just poor Julia but the many more that we read or hear about way to frequently. Political views aside something has to change about young people’s thought process and common decency and fast. The powers that be need to stop coasting and put some strong links and investment into the communities. Actually, it's quite possible we agree on plenty of things... We just disagree on one big thing Can't argue with your point here though. On the face of it, there seems to have been a dangerous shift in attitude regarding murder. When I was a kid, murder was seemingly an act committed by those most unhinged. You had serial murderers like Fred West, Harold Shipstone etc, massacres like Hungerford, Dunblane, and then you had individuals like Roy Whiting, Ian Huntley, the child killers. I'm sure there will have been others less widely reported killings, but it's as if we've become de-sensitized to it. Murder is just a part of everyday life now. The knife crime epidemic, gangs rolling around with guns etc. The more it's normalised, the more it will happen. I suppose all I would note is that we've had a tendency to romanticize/celebritize murders in the past, I'm thinking the Krays and Essex Boys murders. No idea if it's related.
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Post by crapslinger on May 12, 2021 8:43:53 GMT
Do we know if the murder suspect is the same dude whose picture the police published a few days ago? I guess it must be, too many coincidences for it to be anyone else. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/index.htmlbelieve so from the video. Seems to be one big joke to him from the footage. What a vile fucking creature he is, he deserves to hang.
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 12, 2021 8:46:56 GMT
You’re not wrong. Total disrespect for a life. I know we don’t agree on a lot of things but to take anyone’s life is the worst thing in the world. Somewhere over the last 10-20 years somethings gone very wrong in this country to devalue life so much especially when you see people losing loved ones through illness when they’re powerless to stop it happening. Life’s so precious and people choosing to snuff others lives out with no apparent thought is so sad. Not just poor Julia but the many more that we read or hear about way to frequently. Political views aside something has to change about young people’s thought process and common decency and fast. The powers that be need to stop coasting and put some strong links and investment into the communities. Actually, it's quite possible we agree on plenty of things... We just disagree on one big thing Can't argue with your point here though. On the face of it, there seems to have been a dangerous shift in attitude regarding murder. When I was a kid, murder was seemingly an act committed by those most unhinged. You had serial murderers like Fred West, Harold Shipstone etc, massacres like Hungerford, Dunblane, and then you had individuals like Roy Whiting, Ian Huntley, the child killers. I'm sure there will have been others less widely reported killings, but it's as if we've become de-sensitized to it. Murder is just a part of everyday life now. The knife crime epidemic, gangs rolling around with guns etc. The more it's normalised, the more it will happen. I suppose all I would note is that we've had a tendency to romanticize/celebritize murders in the past, I'm thinking the Krays and Essex Boys murders. No idea if it's related. cracking post that. It’s like the Essex boys films too where the likes of Tate and Tucker are made into these modern day anti heroes
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Post by metalhead on May 12, 2021 9:07:04 GMT
Actually, it's quite possible we agree on plenty of things... We just disagree on one big thing Can't argue with your point here though. On the face of it, there seems to have been a dangerous shift in attitude regarding murder. When I was a kid, murder was seemingly an act committed by those most unhinged. You had serial murderers like Fred West, Harold Shipstone etc, massacres like Hungerford, Dunblane, and then you had individuals like Roy Whiting, Ian Huntley, the child killers. I'm sure there will have been others less widely reported killings, but it's as if we've become de-sensitized to it. Murder is just a part of everyday life now. The knife crime epidemic, gangs rolling around with guns etc. The more it's normalised, the more it will happen. I suppose all I would note is that we've had a tendency to romanticize/celebritize murders in the past, I'm thinking the Krays and Essex Boys murders. No idea if it's related. cracking post that. It’s like the Essex boys films too where the likes of Tate and Tucker are made into these modern day anti heroes I personally don't believe that kids commit murder because they play GTA or watch films like American Psycho. However, contemporary media is powerful. If our perception of a murderer is positive due to a biopic that glorifies their actions, then as a society we will become more accepting of their crimes.
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 12, 2021 9:16:02 GMT
cracking post that. It’s like the Essex boys films too where the likes of Tate and Tucker are made into these modern day anti heroes I personally don't believe that kids commit murder because they play GTA or watch films like American Psycho. However, contemporary media is powerful. If our perception of a murderer is positive due to a biopic that glorifies their actions, then as a society we will become more accepting of their crimes. Murder maybe not but i’ve met a few kids who’ve carried knives and they’ve said they’ve watched “Top Boy” and “Blue” It’s very worrying that some come from great backgrounds but are intrigued by the lifestyle as they find it exciting and edgey.
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Post by metalhead on May 12, 2021 9:46:44 GMT
I personally don't believe that kids commit murder because they play GTA or watch films like American Psycho. However, contemporary media is powerful. If our perception of a murderer is positive due to a biopic that glorifies their actions, then as a society we will become more accepting of their crimes. Murder maybe not but i’ve met a few kids who’ve carried knives and they’ve said they’ve watched “Top Boy” and “Blue” It’s very worrying that some come from great backgrounds but are intrigued by the lifestyle as they find it exciting and edgey. There's a strange trend growing amongst those from privileged backgrounds and it seems to revolve around a desperation to be perceived as poor or working class. I wonder if this is a similar thing? It astounds me how many privately educated University students are desperate to be seen as 'working class' heroes. If any of these individuals actually grew up in a proper working class background, like many of us did growing up in Stoke, they would know that it's not all that great. I suspect the people you talk about are similar. They want to be seen as something that they're not and will go to great lengths to achieve it.
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Post by lordb on May 12, 2021 9:48:19 GMT
Murder maybe not but i’ve met a few kids who’ve carried knives and they’ve said they’ve watched “Top Boy” and “Blue” It’s very worrying that some come from great backgrounds but are intrigued by the lifestyle as they find it exciting and edgey. There's a strange trend growing amongst those from privileged backgrounds and it seems to revolve around a desperation to be perceived as poor or working class. I wonder if this is a similar thing? It astounds me how many privately educated University students are desperate to be seen as 'working class' heroes. If any of these individuals actually grew up in a proper working class background, like many of us did growing up in Stoke, they would know that it's not all that great. I suspect the people you talk about are similar. They want to be seen as something that they're not and will go to great lengths to achieve it. Nothing new there Been happening since at least the 60's Posh kids playing at being poor
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 12, 2021 10:02:41 GMT
There's a strange trend growing amongst those from privileged backgrounds and it seems to revolve around a desperation to be perceived as poor or working class. I wonder if this is a similar thing? It astounds me how many privately educated University students are desperate to be seen as 'working class' heroes. If any of these individuals actually grew up in a proper working class background, like many of us did growing up in Stoke, they would know that it's not all that great. I suspect the people you talk about are similar. They want to be seen as something that they're not and will go to great lengths to achieve it. Nothing new there Been happening since at least the 60's Posh kids playing at being poor i guess everyone wants something they can’t have or can’t be. Too much knowledge too soon for me is one of the biggest issues. It seems like some kids don’t want to be kids any more and there seems like their’s zero filter on what they’re seeing. Kids that seem sheltered and parented we’ll get judged as being uncool because at 10 they’re not an expert on sex or gang culture.
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 18, 2022 0:33:50 GMT
very sad. Some of the comments on the twitter thread are spot on. So wrong that she’s been so easily forgotten and received so little press attention. RIP.
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Post by heworksardtho on May 18, 2022 5:10:13 GMT
very sad. Some of the comments on the twitter thread are spot on. So wrong that she’s been so easily forgotten and received so little press attention. RIP. Exactly right
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 18, 2022 5:58:57 GMT
very sad. Some of the comments on the twitter thread are spot on. So wrong that she’s been so easily forgotten and received so little press attention. RIP. Exactly right This is the comment that I think sums things up best “It's an attitude that is becoming all the more common in today's "liberal" society. We're slowly losing any semblance of standards, respect, authority and with them dignity. All about rights and little about social responsibility. Poor lady. Full respect. RIP” A poor innocent lady murdered out for a walk because of the job she does. There are certain Police officers that have committed some pretty dreadful acts over the last couple of years but the media stoking up this anti-police rhetoric even on non stories and never ever reporting on the numerous acts of heroism has created people like Wheeler who had mental health issues even before he targetted poor Julie because he thought she was a “copper.”
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Post by partickpotter on May 18, 2022 6:18:50 GMT
This is the comment that I think sums things up best “It's an attitude that is becoming all the more common in today's "liberal" society. We're slowly losing any semblance of standards, respect, authority and with them dignity. All about rights and little about social responsibility. Poor lady. Full respect. RIP” A poor innocent lady murdered out for a walk because of the job she does. There are certain Police officers that have committed some pretty dreadful acts over the last couple of years but the media stoking up this anti-police rhetoric even on non stories and never ever reporting on the numerous acts of heroism has created people like Wheeler who had mental health issues even before he targetted poor Julie because he thought she was a “copper.” Sorry pal, but I don’t buy into this “losing standards” and “attitudes of today's “liberal” society stuff. Remember this wee ditty… Harry Roberts is our friend, is our friend, is our friend. Harry Roberts is our friend, he kills coppers. Let him out to kill some more, kill some more, kill some more. let him out to kill some more, Harry Roberts
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 18, 2022 6:37:45 GMT
This is the comment that I think sums things up best “It's an attitude that is becoming all the more common in today's "liberal" society. We're slowly losing any semblance of standards, respect, authority and with them dignity. All about rights and little about social responsibility. Poor lady. Full respect. RIP” A poor innocent lady murdered out for a walk because of the job she does. There are certain Police officers that have committed some pretty dreadful acts over the last couple of years but the media stoking up this anti-police rhetoric even on non stories and never ever reporting on the numerous acts of heroism has created people like Wheeler who had mental health issues even before he targetted poor Julie because he thought she was a “copper.” Sorry pal, but I don’t buy into this “losing standards” and “attitudes of today's “liberal” society stuff. Remember this wee ditty… Harry Roberts is our friend, is our friend, is our friend. Harry Roberts is our friend, he kills coppers. Let him out to kill some more, kill some more, kill some more. let him out to kill some more, Harry Roberts If i’m honest i don’t know anything about him but have just checked. I have no doubt that there’s always been hatred and you will always get people like Roberts. What I would say though with the likes of social media the hatred’s being stoked and is more widespread. In the case of Robert’s the officers were on duty poor Julie was walking her dog and attacked. I’d be very interested to know the figures on assaults on police clearly they’re increasing and not just for police but other emergency workers as there’s a new act been bought in.
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Post by partickpotter on May 18, 2022 6:44:38 GMT
Sorry pal, but I don’t buy into this “losing standards” and “attitudes of today's “liberal” society stuff. Remember this wee ditty… Harry Roberts is our friend, is our friend, is our friend. Harry Roberts is our friend, he kills coppers. Let him out to kill some more, kill some more, kill some more. let him out to kill some more, Harry Roberts If i’m honest i don’t know anything about him but have just checked. I have no doubt that there’s always been hatred and you will always get people like Roberts. What I would say though with the likes of social media the hatred’s being stoked and is more widespread. In the case of Robert’s the officers were on duty poor Julie was walking her dog and attacked. I’d be very interested to know the figures on assaults on police clearly they’re increasing and not just for police but other emergency workers as there’s a new act been bought in. It’s not so much Roberts the person but Roberts the song I’m highlighting, which was a popular terrace chant at certain grounds (not the Victoria Ground as far as I am aware) in the late 60s and 70s. Let’s remember, the term “pigs” was pretty much common place at that time to describe the police. Disrespect of the police force / service has a long history. As you say, it would be interesting to see stats. I’m sure they show, reflecting society as a whole, that violence is reducing. But, I suspect much less will have been reported never mind recorded in those distant days so we’ll possibly not get a true picture.
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Post by thevoid on May 18, 2022 6:53:28 GMT
If i’m honest i don’t know anything about him but have just checked. I have no doubt that there’s always been hatred and you will always get people like Roberts. What I would say though with the likes of social media the hatred’s being stoked and is more widespread. In the case of Robert’s the officers were on duty poor Julie was walking her dog and attacked. I’d be very interested to know the figures on assaults on police clearly they’re increasing and not just for police but other emergency workers as there’s a new act been bought in. It’s not so much Roberts the person but Roberts the song I’m highlighting, which was a popular terrace chant at certain grounds (not the Victoria Ground as far as I am aware) in the late 60s and 70s. Let’s remember, the term “pigs” was pretty much common place at that time to describe the police. Disrespect of the police force / service has a long history. As you say, it would be interesting to see stats. I’m sure they show, reflecting society as a whole, that violence is reducing. But, I suspect much less will have been reported never mind recorded in those distant days so we’ll possibly not get a true picture. The difference is that was a few pissed up blokes singing at a football match to wind up the on duty woodentops, and the vast majority of people would find such a song abhorrent. Nowadays it's fashionable to bash the police and a lot of it comes from vitriol on social media that- unlike a chant at a football game- is there for posterity. It's also interesting that- if this forum is a fair barometer- the real hatred for the police seems to come from those on the left
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Post by partickpotter on May 18, 2022 7:00:08 GMT
It’s not so much Roberts the person but Roberts the song I’m highlighting, which was a popular terrace chant at certain grounds (not the Victoria Ground as far as I am aware) in the late 60s and 70s. Let’s remember, the term “pigs” was pretty much common place at that time to describe the police. Disrespect of the police force / service has a long history. As you say, it would be interesting to see stats. I’m sure they show, reflecting society as a whole, that violence is reducing. But, I suspect much less will have been reported never mind recorded in those distant days so we’ll possibly not get a true picture. The difference is that was a few pissed up blokes singing at a football match to wind up the on duty woodentops, and the vast majority of people would find such a song abhorrent. Nowadays it's fashionable to bash the police and a lot of it comes from vitriol on social media that- unlike a chant at a football game- is there for posterity. It's also interesting that- if this forum is a fair barometer- the real hatred for the police seems to come from those on the left You raise a good point. While “hatred” of the police is nothing new (my point) the demographic of that hatred does seem to have changed. Previously (and admittedly simplistically) it was predominately a working class thing, now it seems more middle class - which, as we know is now the home of socialist thought these days (the working class being such a disappointment to our lefty friends).
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