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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 5, 2021 11:54:46 GMT
To be fair to Corbyn, he was stuck between the core vote who wanted Brexit and student/younger voters who hated it so he tried some middle ground mishmash which alienated both sets of supporters. He really needed to fully embrace Brexit, accept the result of the referendum and sell it to his huge student following as a necessity but something which could end up being for the good of the UK (which it can be). Whatever his view the decision was always going to be one made democratically within the party....... In my opinion he should have influenced that decision.... as leader......"back me on this, because I think it is the right thing to do, or get a new leader"....it was/is that important
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Post by GrahamHyde on May 5, 2021 12:08:05 GMT
I thought the last Tory vote was a one-off for many of these folk?
They use the 'opposition isn't all that' line to justify to their own conscience that they're doing the right thing, because they know deep down who they're actually voting for.
Anyway, people just vote for who the media has convinced them to vote for. It's they who decide which way Caesar's thumb will turn.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on May 5, 2021 16:44:55 GMT
Good grief. You're absolutely right, we've left and it is now never a topic of conversation and clearly isn't an ongoing factor in how people are currently voting. It is just pure coincidence that based on the polling and the evidence from the last general election that all the people who voted for the single issue Brexit Party are now voting for the Conservative's who 'got Brexit done'. But we'll always have 2017, a fine vintage. You're coming at it from an angle that suggest none of Labour's improvements in 2017 were due to policy which gave some people hope of a better future, and that those same people are that entrenched in Brexit that they are welded to the Tories in the future. I'm simply suggesting that is disingenuous and voters will come back to Labour if they feel they have something to vote for, under Starmer currently that is not the case. His one tactic of "We're under new management and I'm not Jeremy Corbyn" is failing badly...... I'm coming at it from the angle that the polls are showing the 2021 by-election is following an almost identical pattern to 2019. In the same post I've even highlighted that Starmer isn't cutting through. It was after reading that post that brought 2017 into proceedings and 'alternative stats' for reasons unknown other than to show how well Jeremy's Labour did in 2017 and something about Tony Blair's decline. I've even answered your question as to why Hartlepools Labour candidate saw his 6000 vote improvement in 2017.
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Post by Miles Offside on May 5, 2021 17:03:11 GMT
Anyway, people just vote for who the media has convinced them to vote for. It's they who decide which way Caesar's thumb will turn. Well, if that's right, the media has convinced the people of Hartlepool to vote Labour for over 40 years, but now it looks like they're convincing them to vote Tory. Don't think so
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 5, 2021 17:15:16 GMT
You're coming at it from an angle that suggest none of Labour's improvements in 2017 were due to policy which gave some people hope of a better future, and that those same people are that entrenched in Brexit that they are welded to the Tories in the future. I'm simply suggesting that is disingenuous and voters will come back to Labour if they feel they have something to vote for, under Starmer currently that is not the case. His one tactic of "We're under new management and I'm not Jeremy Corbyn" is failing badly...... I'm coming at it from the angle that the polls are showing the 2021 by-election is following an almost identical pattern to 2019. In the same post I've even highlighted that Starmer isn't cutting through. It was after reading that post that brought 2017 into proceedings and 'alternative stats' for reasons unknown other than to show how well Jeremy's Labour did in 2017 and something about Tony Blair's decline. I've even answered your question as to why Hartlepools Labour candidate saw his 6000 vote improvement in 2017. Your first reply: It's fair to say Starmer has cut through, but in reality nothing hasn't changed in Hartlepool. Your second reply: I've already stated that Starmer hasn't cut through
Which to believe? Anyway you have your take I have mine, just try and be a little less passive aggressive in your replies there's a good lad (I too can be a condescending prick ) Enjoy your evening.......
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Post by RedandWhite90 on May 5, 2021 18:12:19 GMT
I'm coming at it from the angle that the polls are showing the 2021 by-election is following an almost identical pattern to 2019. In the same post I've even highlighted that Starmer isn't cutting through. It was after reading that post that brought 2017 into proceedings and 'alternative stats' for reasons unknown other than to show how well Jeremy's Labour did in 2017 and something about Tony Blair's decline. I've even answered your question as to why Hartlepools Labour candidate saw his 6000 vote improvement in 2017. Your first reply: It's fair to say Starmer has cut through, but in reality nothing hasn't changed in Hartlepool. Your second reply: I've already stated that Starmer hasn't cut through
Which to believe? Anyway you have your take I have mine, just try and be a little less passive aggressive in your replies there's a good lad (I too can be a condescending prick ) Enjoy your evening....... Yes and it was even acknowledged to Waga later on it was a typo 😊 whilst the effort has been appreciated I don't think anyone can argue his message has landed to the masses can it. I'm not sure condescending is correct either, more blinkered and misguided living in those heady days of May 2017 and winning the argument. One thing is certain, the horseshoe theory of politics certainly still has a beating heart.
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Post by followyoudown on May 5, 2021 20:58:22 GMT
Do you know who Keir Starmer is ? "No idea" maybe she does know after all.... Mmmm, looks a bit orchestrated to me. Can’t stand her and all of the other political commentators like Peston, Kuenssberg, Bolton and co. They all have this air of arrogance about them as if they know so much in the background, but couldn’t possibly tell a mere mortal. Much preferred the older crowd like John Cole and John Simpson when they had the political correspondent role, always felt there was a degree of class and integrity in their approach as opposed to the gutter sniping, over talking and combative approach we see now. I think she picked a person who appears to have absolutely no interest in politics, but yes absolutely agree with you the covid press conferences showed them all up, only decent questions came from the science journos or local journos, cummings ran rings round them all in the barnard castle press conference as they screeched at him now they breathlessly repeat his every word transparent as fuck.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 5, 2021 21:04:32 GMT
Your first reply: It's fair to say Starmer has cut through, but in reality nothing hasn't changed in Hartlepool. Your second reply: I've already stated that Starmer hasn't cut through
Which to believe? Anyway you have your take I have mine, just try and be a little less passive aggressive in your replies there's a good lad (I too can be a condescending prick ) Enjoy your evening....... Yes and it was even acknowledged to Waga later on it was a typo 😊 whilst the effort has been appreciated I don't think anyone can argue his message has landed to the masses can it. I'm not sure condescending is correct either, more blinkered and misguided living in those heady days of May 2017 and winning the argument. One thing is certain, the horseshoe theory of politics certainly still has a beating heart. Prefer the fish hook theory myself........
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Post by salopstick on May 5, 2021 21:21:19 GMT
I'll ignore you being a condescending prick for the moment. Labour didn't lose because of Brexit, they lost because of Corbyn I hear it constantly on here, it's what everyone on the doorstep was saying apparently. Corbyn has gone, antisemitism no longer exists within the Labour Party. The good people of Hartlepool unilaterally voted in Labour in 2017 and that was with Corbyn so Starmer should be licking his lips, he's even embraced the Union Jack and the armed forces and wants to put the "Great" back into Great Britain. It's all set up for a comfortable Labour victory........ No need for name calling. I think Labour lost because of Brexit and Corbyn, the two are not mutually exclusive and are both responsible for the worst Labour result in decades. If I had to pick one, it'd be Brexit. You have to remember most people don't give a fuck about politics and care even less. So all they really wanted was to stop hearing about Brexit every day on the news, simple as that. Get it done, don't care what it means, just stop bloody going on about it. Oh and Corbyn's a jew-hating Commie isn't he? It's dog whistle stuff obviously, but if you don't care about politics, this is what cuts through. Sad, but true. If Corbyn and Labour had accepted the brexit vote despite their personal views they would be in power now. The working class did not desert labour because of Corbyn. They deserted Labour because 1. The rejection of the brexit vote and the hijack movement to delay as much as possible 2. The London centric Labour Party ignoring the rest of the country. Corbyn, anti-semitism and everything else is just window dressing
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Post by GrahamHyde on May 5, 2021 21:21:39 GMT
Anyway, people just vote for who the media has convinced them to vote for. It's they who decide which way Caesar's thumb will turn. Well, if that's right, the media has convinced the people of Hartlepool to vote Labour for over 40 years, but now it looks like they're convincing them to vote Tory. Don't think so This past year is evidence of the influence the media have on the psyche of many people in this country. It's easy to drive public opinion in that way if you continually push the same narrative.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 6, 2021 6:31:29 GMT
Well, if that's right, the media has convinced the people of Hartlepool to vote Labour for over 40 years, but now it looks like they're convincing them to vote Tory. Don't think so This past year is evidence of the influence the media have on the psyche of many people in this country. It's easy to drive public opinion in that way if you continually push the same narrative. Indeed so. It'll take a few years for people who voted Leave to bring themselves to not vote Tory. At the moment it probably still feels like to do so would be a tacit admission that it was the wrong thing to do. Plus a lot more people will have had the vaccine than have been directly affected by one of the 125,000 Covid deaths, and with people thinking more and more about themselves these days, that will matter more.
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Post by crapslinger on May 6, 2021 7:02:50 GMT
If Labour lose Hartlepool it would be a seismic result the end of the red wall and the end of the party.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 6, 2021 7:05:59 GMT
This past year is evidence of the influence the media have on the psyche of many people in this country. It's easy to drive public opinion in that way if you continually push the same narrative. Indeed so. It'll take a few years for people who voted Leave to bring themselves to not vote Tory. At the moment it probably still feels like to do so would be a tacit admission that it was the wrong thing to do. Plus a lot more people will have had the vaccine than have been directly affected by one of the 125,000 Covid deaths, and with people thinking more and more about themselves these days, that will matter more. Good lad Look to the future for the PROMISED LAND.
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Post by wagsastokie on May 6, 2021 7:50:37 GMT
If Labour lose Hartlepool it would be a seismic result the end of the red wall and the end of the party. A touch over the top But it could well be the first nail in starmers political coffin
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 8:17:33 GMT
If Labour lose Hartlepool it would be a seismic result the end of the red wall and the end of the party. A touch over the top But it could well be the first nail in starmers political coffin Leave Starmer where he is, he's doing a cracking job of being totally ineffective !
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 6, 2021 8:40:44 GMT
If Labour lose Hartlepool it would be a seismic result the end of the red wall and the end of the party. Want to bet? I bet you £100 that, regardless of the result in Hartlepool, the Labour Party still exists at the time of the next general election
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Post by heworksardtho on May 6, 2021 14:22:41 GMT
If Labour lose Hartlepool it would be a seismic result the end of the red wall and the end of the party. Here’s hoping , imagine Sir Kier running the country , ppl thought Blair and Corbyn were bad
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Post by Miles Offside on May 6, 2021 16:32:57 GMT
Well, if that's right, the media has convinced the people of Hartlepool to vote Labour for over 40 years, but now it looks like they're convincing them to vote Tory. Don't think so This past year is evidence of the influence the media have on the psyche of many people in this country. It's easy to drive public opinion in that way if you continually push the same narrative. So, how did the media influence the way you voted personally in the last general election? Are you one of those people who "just vote for who the media has convinced them to vote for?"
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Post by Miles Offside on May 6, 2021 16:36:20 GMT
This past year is evidence of the influence the media have on the psyche of many people in this country. It's easy to drive public opinion in that way if you continually push the same narrative. Indeed so. It'll take a few years for people who voted Leave to bring themselves to not vote Tory. At the moment it probably still feels like to do so would be a tacit admission that it was the wrong thing to do. Plus a lot more people will have had the vaccine than have been directly affected by one of the 125,000 Covid deaths, and with people thinking more and more about themselves these days, that will matter more. It might take a few more years for some people to stop patronising the electorate whenever the vote doesn't go their way.
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Post by xchpotter on May 6, 2021 16:56:14 GMT
Indeed so. It'll take a few years for people who voted Leave to bring themselves to not vote Tory. At the moment it probably still feels like to do so would be a tacit admission that it was the wrong thing to do. Plus a lot more people will have had the vaccine than have been directly affected by one of the 125,000 Covid deaths, and with people thinking more and more about themselves these days, that will matter more. It might take a few more years for some people to stop patronising the electorate whenever the vote doesn't go their way. That’s a radical way of looking at things. Wonder if it will ever catch on? 🤔
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Post by kingdong on May 7, 2021 4:05:48 GMT
The shadow transport secretary has conceded defeat in the Hartlepool by election... Labour ConcededWhat now for Mr. Starmer?
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Post by heworksardtho on May 7, 2021 4:48:05 GMT
Great result Starmer is finished
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Post by zerps on May 7, 2021 5:29:15 GMT
They tried having a drowned rat as leader and they tried having a knight of the realm as leader. What next a telly tubby?
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Post by ColonelMustard on May 7, 2021 5:40:57 GMT
"Your preoccupation with the working-class vote is wrong, they have nowhere else to go"
Peter Mandelson 1999
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Post by Kpsje on May 7, 2021 5:43:56 GMT
so, labour accepts defeat in hartlepool by-election.
...but what about boris johnson’s wallpaper???
(puzzled)
(smiley face)
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Post by theonlooker on May 7, 2021 5:56:04 GMT
A very stark warning that this filthy, sleazy, incompetent government can win a seat in a previous red stronghold.
Dark times.
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Post by felonious on May 7, 2021 5:59:43 GMT
"Your preoccupation with the working-class vote is wrong, they have nowhere else to go" Peter Mandelson 1999 In 1999 that was probably fairly close to the truth but then UKIP came along and let's face it once you vote for someone other than Labour or Conservative for that matter you're then absolutely free to vote for whoever you want.
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Post by ColonelMustard on May 7, 2021 6:06:50 GMT
"Your preoccupation with the working-class vote is wrong, they have nowhere else to go" Peter Mandelson 1999 In 1999 that was probably fairly close to the truth but then UKIP came along and let's face it once you vote for someone other than Labour or Conservative for that matter you're then absolutely free to vote for whoever you want. Indeed it might have been close to the truth, and as you imply it was a policy that had implications. It's also laced with irony not just because he was Hartlepool MP at the time but that Starmer just brought him in to get Labour winning again. Starmers biggest problem is the people around him obsessing with 1997. I can imagine Mandelson currently saying "you're obsession with the young and the cities is wrong, they have nowhere else to go." Labour will be left with no contingent at all.
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Post by Kpsje on May 7, 2021 6:11:02 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on May 7, 2021 6:17:40 GMT
No need for name calling. I think Labour lost because of Brexit and Corbyn, the two are not mutually exclusive and are both responsible for the worst Labour result in decades. If I had to pick one, it'd be Brexit. You have to remember most people don't give a fuck about politics and care even less. So all they really wanted was to stop hearing about Brexit every day on the news, simple as that. Get it done, don't care what it means, just stop bloody going on about it. Oh and Corbyn's a jew-hating Commie isn't he? It's dog whistle stuff obviously, but if you don't care about politics, this is what cuts through. Sad, but true. If Corbyn and Labour had accepted the brexit vote despite their personal views they would be in power now. The working class did not desert labour because of Corbyn. They deserted Labour because 1. The rejection of the brexit vote and the hijack movement to delay as much as possible 2. The London centric Labour Party ignoring the rest of the country. Corbyn, anti-semitism and everything else is just window dressing John Curtice saying exactly this on the radio now. People haven't forgotten Labour's dithering on brexit outside London, whilst the capital is a one party state. It's a conundrum for Labour as they'll probably have to give up their monopoly in London to address the problem.
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