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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 4, 2021 11:37:36 GMT
That's wonderful, historical and well though out analysis. When it comes to mapping the up's and downs of Hartlepool voting records you will be the first person I come to, with an extended piece of the re-emergence of the Labour Party in 2017. Back to the by-election of 2021 during the Parliamentary term of the 2019 election. **Also noting that I've already stated that Starmer hasn't cut through** Have we got any other explanation that refutes my claim that almost certainly anybody in Hartlepool who voted BP has simply shifted their vote to the Cons? I'll ignore you being a condescending prick for the moment. Labour didn't lose because of Brexit, they lost because of Corbyn I hear it constantly on here, it's what everyone on the doorstep was saying apparently. Corbyn has gone, antisemitism no longer exists within the Labour Party. The good people of Hartlepool unilaterally voted in Labour in 2017 and that was with Corbyn so Starmer should be licking his lips, he's even embraced the Union Jack and the armed forces and wants to put the "Great" back into Great Britain. It's all set up for a comfortable Labour victory........ No need for name calling. I think Labour lost because of Brexit and Corbyn, the two are not mutually exclusive and are both responsible for the worst Labour result in decades. If I had to pick one, it'd be Brexit. You have to remember most people don't give a fuck about politics and care even less. So all they really wanted was to stop hearing about Brexit every day on the news, simple as that. Get it done, don't care what it means, just stop bloody going on about it. Oh and Corbyn's a jew-hating Commie isn't he? It's dog whistle stuff obviously, but if you don't care about politics, this is what cuts through. Sad, but true.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 4, 2021 12:14:48 GMT
I'll ignore you being a condescending prick for the moment. Labour didn't lose because of Brexit, they lost because of Corbyn I hear it constantly on here, it's what everyone on the doorstep was saying apparently. Corbyn has gone, antisemitism no longer exists within the Labour Party. The good people of Hartlepool unilaterally voted in Labour in 2017 and that was with Corbyn so Starmer should be licking his lips, he's even embraced the Union Jack and the armed forces and wants to put the "Great" back into Great Britain. It's all set up for a comfortable Labour victory........ No need for name calling. I think Labour lost because of Brexit and Corbyn, the two are not mutually exclusive and are both responsible for the worst Labour result in decades. If I had to pick one, it'd be Brexit. You have to remember most people don't give a fuck about politics and care even less. So all they really wanted was to stop hearing about Brexit every day on the news, simple as that. Get it done, don't care what it means, just stop bloody going on about it. Oh and Corbyn's a jew-hating Commie isn't he? It's dog whistle stuff obviously, but if you don't care about politics, this is what cuts through. Sad, but true. If someone is being a condescending prick sometimes it's just easier to cut to the chase and tell them that but your advice is noted cheers........
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 4, 2021 12:29:12 GMT
This makes the problem labour faces even more startling without the brexit party it could have been 120+ majority. In principle now that Brexit is done there is no reason why a voter that has historically voted Labour wouldn't go back to Labour (like many did in 2017) other than the fact they think the current party is a total waste of space, which of course it is.......
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Post by followyoudown on May 4, 2021 14:31:31 GMT
This makes the problem labour faces even more startling without the brexit party it could have been 120+ majority. In principle now that Brexit is done there is no reason why a voter that has historically voted Labour wouldn't go back to Labour (like many did in 2017) other than the fact they think the current party is a total waste of space, which of course it is....... How did that theory work out for the Lib dems and tuition fees ? For almost 4 years brexit voters were called thick and racist and had people openly or covertly trying to overturn their vote, Labour and Starmer were a big part of this, you theory may apply in some places but not one that voted brexit in the numbers they did in hartlepool.
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Post by felonious on May 4, 2021 16:10:54 GMT
That's wonderful, historical and well though out analysis. When it comes to mapping the up's and downs of Hartlepool voting records you will be the first person I come to, with an extended piece of the re-emergence of the Labour Party in 2017. Back to the by-election of 2021 during the Parliamentary term of the 2019 election. **Also noting that I've already stated that Starmer hasn't cut through** Have we got any other explanation that refutes my claim that almost certainly anybody in Hartlepool who voted BP has simply shifted their vote to the Cons? I'll ignore you being a condescending prick for the moment. Labour didn't lose because of Brexit, they lost because of Corbyn I hear it constantly on here, it's what everyone on the doorstep was saying apparently. Corbyn has gone, antisemitism no longer exists within the Labour Party. The good people of Hartlepool unilaterally voted in Labour in 2017 and that was with Corbyn so Starmer should be licking his lips, he's even embraced the Union Jack and the armed forces and wants to put the "Great" back into Great Britain. It's all set up for a comfortable Labour victory........ There's been so many votes/ elections it's become difficult to remember one from the other but in 2017 didn't Corbyn's Labour party indicate that it would support the Brexit vote. In 2019 didn't they reel back with an inconclusive position? Wasn't this the reason why the vote share went down over that period and the Red Wall came to be?
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 4, 2021 16:22:14 GMT
I'll ignore you being a condescending prick for the moment. Labour didn't lose because of Brexit, they lost because of Corbyn I hear it constantly on here, it's what everyone on the doorstep was saying apparently. Corbyn has gone, antisemitism no longer exists within the Labour Party. The good people of Hartlepool unilaterally voted in Labour in 2017 and that was with Corbyn so Starmer should be licking his lips, he's even embraced the Union Jack and the armed forces and wants to put the "Great" back into Great Britain. It's all set up for a comfortable Labour victory........ There's been so many votes/ elections it's become difficult to remember one from the other but in 2017 didn't Corbyn's Labour party indicate that it would support the Brexit vote. In 2019 didn't they reel back with an inconclusive position? Wasn't this the reason why the vote share went down over that period and the Red Wall came to be? Absolutely the path the Labour Party went down (democratically not Corbyn I might add) was the wrong one and I said that at the time and as a remainer. And it was the likes of Starmer who drove that tactic forward by constantly undermining the process before it had been decided on by the membership. Whilst we're talking about by-elections lets not forget that under Corbyn's leadership they kept/gained Oldham (+7.3%), Sheffield Brightside (+5.9%) and Tooting (+8.7%) early on and the snakes in the PLP ordered a coup to driver the leader out as a response. So many mitigating factors between 2017, the antisemitism crisis, the media onslaught, the PLP position, Brexit to name several it's hard to get your head around the fact that it all happened in such a short space of time. I still can't believe it's less than 5 years since Cameron was PM so much has happened since then........
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Post by RedandWhite90 on May 4, 2021 18:17:36 GMT
That's wonderful, historical and well though out analysis. When it comes to mapping the up's and downs of Hartlepool voting records you will be the first person I come to, with an extended piece of the re-emergence of the Labour Party in 2017. Back to the by-election of 2021 during the Parliamentary term of the 2019 election. **Also noting that I've already stated that Starmer hasn't cut through** Have we got any other explanation that refutes my claim that almost certainly anybody in Hartlepool who voted BP has simply shifted their vote to the Cons? I'll ignore you being a condescending prick for the moment. Labour didn't lose because of Brexit, they lost because of Corbyn I hear it constantly on here, it's what everyone on the doorstep was saying apparently. Corbyn has gone, antisemitism no longer exists within the Labour Party. The good people of Hartlepool unilaterally voted in Labour in 2017 and that was with Corbyn so Starmer should be licking his lips, he's even embraced the Union Jack and the armed forces and wants to put the "Great" back into Great Britain. It's all set up for a comfortable Labour victory........ It is quite hard not to be condescending when you're as blinkered as the headbangers on the right, in fact I usually find you're much worse. For someone who had to hold his nose twice to vote Labour in the last 2 elections seeing your attitude towards Starmer makes me wonder why I bothered. So as you fail to recognise that in 2017 there were many 'Red Wall' Brexit voters who returned Labour MP's on the belief that the Labour Party would deliver Brexit, coupled by Theresa May leading the Con's led to a Labour bounce and a tightening of the seat deficit from 2015. This by-election is taking place during the Parliamentary term of the election that took place in 2019. Labour collapsed in part to their Brexit messaging (which you can pin on Starmer of you wish) the fact that the entire country was aware of what was happening with JC's catastrophic leadership of the party (which you can ignore/pretend wasn't happening) and finally as a result of the BP offering the 'alternative vote'. The stats I've posted above, which as a direct result of the BP not standing means those votes will go to the Con's and it is pretty much as you were in Hartlepool. And once more, it shows two very clear things - firstly Starmer is not cutting through and secondly Brexit is very much still a vote winner.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on May 4, 2021 18:21:58 GMT
Behave Julia, they all simply love and believe in Brexit still. In Decembet 2019 the Cons and BP had 21,000 votes split between them whilst the Labour candidate had 15,000. Roughly 41000 votes were cast in total and that 6000 difference between Lab-Con/BP is 15% ish. It's fair to say Starmer has cut through, but in reality nothing has changed in Hartlepool. The only thing starmer has cut through is his arse cheek from a strand of fence wire *hasn't, I'll need to amend. Avain, we're in that odd position of agreement old boy!
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on May 4, 2021 18:22:21 GMT
There's been so many votes/ elections it's become difficult to remember one from the other but in 2017 didn't Corbyn's Labour party indicate that it would support the Brexit vote. In 2019 didn't they reel back with an inconclusive position? Wasn't this the reason why the vote share went down over that period and the Red Wall came to be? Absolutely the path the Labour Party went down (democratically not Corbyn I might add) was the wrong one and I said that at the time and as a remainer. And it was the likes of Starmer who drove that tactic forward by constantly undermining the process before it had been decided on by the membership. Whilst we're talking about by-elections lets not forget that under Corbyn's leadership they kept/gained Oldham (+7.3%), Sheffield Brightside (+5.9%) and Tooting (+8.7%) early on and the snakes in the PLP ordered a coup to driver the leader out as a response. So many mitigating factors between 2017, the antisemitism crisis, the media onslaught, the PLP position, Brexit to name several it's hard to get your head around the fact that it all happened in such a short space of time. I still can't believe it's less than 5 years since Cameron was PM so much has happened since then........ Had Corbyn not been caught up in the anti semitism scandal, backed Britain more and 100% backed Brexit, he'd have had a massive chance. Instead, he did get caught up in the whole anti semitism scandal, he despised Britain and 100% backed overturning the biggest democratic vote in British history. As such, he's completely finished Labour.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on May 4, 2021 18:24:43 GMT
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Post by 4372 on May 4, 2021 19:06:56 GMT
"The stats I've posted above, which as a direct result of the BP not standing means those votes will go to the Con's and it is pretty much as you were in Hartlepool".
Every time I read "BP", I assume that someone has omitted the N between those two letters.
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Post by wagsastokie on May 4, 2021 20:02:17 GMT
The only thing starmer has cut through is his arse cheek from a strand of fence wire *hasn't, I'll need to amend. Avain, we're in that odd position of agreement old boy! Strange times
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 4, 2021 20:53:39 GMT
I'll ignore you being a condescending prick for the moment. Labour didn't lose because of Brexit, they lost because of Corbyn I hear it constantly on here, it's what everyone on the doorstep was saying apparently. Corbyn has gone, antisemitism no longer exists within the Labour Party. The good people of Hartlepool unilaterally voted in Labour in 2017 and that was with Corbyn so Starmer should be licking his lips, he's even embraced the Union Jack and the armed forces and wants to put the "Great" back into Great Britain. It's all set up for a comfortable Labour victory........ It is quite hard not to be condescending when you're as blinkered as the headbangers on the right, in fact I usually find you're much worse. For someone who had to hold his nose twice to vote Labour in the last 2 elections seeing your attitude towards Starmer makes me wonder why I bothered. So as you fail to recognise that in 2017 there were many 'Red Wall' Brexit voters who returned Labour MP's on the belief that the Labour Party would deliver Brexit, coupled by Theresa May leading the Con's led to a Labour bounce and a tightening of the seat deficit from 2015. This by-election is taking place during the Parliamentary term of the election that took place in 2019. Labour collapsed in part to their Brexit messaging (which you can pin on Starmer of you wish) the fact that the entire country was aware of what was happening with JC's catastrophic leadership of the party (which you can ignore/pretend wasn't happening) and finally as a result of the BP offering the 'alternative vote'. The stats I've posted above, which as a direct result of the BP not standing means those votes will go to the Con's and it is pretty much as you were in Hartlepool. And once more, it shows two very clear things - firstly Starmer is not cutting through and secondly Brexit is very much still a vote winner. 2015 election - UKIP/Tory votes 19,308, Labour 14,076 2017 election - UKIP/Tory votes 19,120 Labour 21,969 Not sure who was lending Labour their vote to be honest, I did see popular policies and the first building blocks put in place for a decade though but alas it wasn’t to be. The 2017 election is the only election since Blair’s first victory that has bucked the trend of lost votes, since they were obliterated in Scotland Labour are a party in terminal decline and they continue to lurch in the direction of where the problems started. Anyway you have your take and I have mine, Labour are fucked though and need putting out of their misery. Whether you want to hold your nose, whether you think it was all worth it is quite frankly of no interest to me.....
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Post by RedandWhite90 on May 4, 2021 21:59:53 GMT
It is quite hard not to be condescending when you're as blinkered as the headbangers on the right, in fact I usually find you're much worse. For someone who had to hold his nose twice to vote Labour in the last 2 elections seeing your attitude towards Starmer makes me wonder why I bothered. So as you fail to recognise that in 2017 there were many 'Red Wall' Brexit voters who returned Labour MP's on the belief that the Labour Party would deliver Brexit, coupled by Theresa May leading the Con's led to a Labour bounce and a tightening of the seat deficit from 2015. This by-election is taking place during the Parliamentary term of the election that took place in 2019. Labour collapsed in part to their Brexit messaging (which you can pin on Starmer of you wish) the fact that the entire country was aware of what was happening with JC's catastrophic leadership of the party (which you can ignore/pretend wasn't happening) and finally as a result of the BP offering the 'alternative vote'. The stats I've posted above, which as a direct result of the BP not standing means those votes will go to the Con's and it is pretty much as you were in Hartlepool. And once more, it shows two very clear things - firstly Starmer is not cutting through and secondly Brexit is very much still a vote winner. 2015 election - UKIP/Tory votes 19,308, Labour 14,076 2017 election - UKIP/Tory votes 19,120 Labour 21,969 Not sure who was lending Labour their vote to be honest, I did see popular policies and the first building blocks put in place for a decade though but alas it wasn’t to be. The 2017 election is the only election since Blair’s first victory that has bucked the trend of lost votes, since they were obliterated in Scotland Labour are a party in terminal decline and they continue to lurch in the direction of where the problems started. Anyway you have your take and I have mine, Labour are fucked though and need putting out of their misery. Whether you want to hold your nose, whether you think it was all worth it is quite frankly of no interest to me..... I'll give it one more go, and please be my guest to have the last word. My responce on this thread argued that the difference from the 2019 election to the upcoming 2021 by-election purely sees the Brexit Party votes (who are not standing) simply shift the Conservatives purely based on them being a Brexit supporting party and as such show a 17 point lead in the polls. You've then responded with what I feel are completely irrelevant details about 2015 and 2017 as some sort of homage to the bounce that JC received in 2017 and then some dictat about Tony Blair. For me it is irrelevant what happened prior to 2019 in this discussion. That being said, and for anybody else who is probably wondering what on earth is going on here is the 2019 election result which clearly shows where the 6000 Labour votes were lost and to who 👇 2019 Attachment DeletedIf you substitute the BP for UKIP the result was similar to that of 2015 which split the 'leave' vote. In 2021 there is no alternative to the Conservatives as a leave option, which will lead to no splitting of the vote and by my estimate a 15 point lead.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on May 4, 2021 22:21:39 GMT
Have the great people of Hartlepool ever received so much attention? They must be loving this media coverage and rightly so.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 5, 2021 0:50:02 GMT
2015 election - UKIP/Tory votes 19,308, Labour 14,076 2017 election - UKIP/Tory votes 19,120 Labour 21,969 Not sure who was lending Labour their vote to be honest, I did see popular policies and the first building blocks put in place for a decade though but alas it wasn’t to be. The 2017 election is the only election since Blair’s first victory that has bucked the trend of lost votes, since they were obliterated in Scotland Labour are a party in terminal decline and they continue to lurch in the direction of where the problems started. Anyway you have your take and I have mine, Labour are fucked though and need putting out of their misery. Whether you want to hold your nose, whether you think it was all worth it is quite frankly of no interest to me..... I'll give it one more go, and please be my guest to have the last word. My responce on this thread argued that the difference from the 2019 election to the upcoming 2021 by-election purely sees the Brexit Party votes (who are not standing) simply shift the Conservatives purely based on them being a Brexit supporting party and as such show a 17 point lead in the polls. You've then responded with what I feel are completely irrelevant details about 2015 and 2017 as some sort of homage to the bounce that JC received in 2017 and then some dictat about Tony Blair. For me it is irrelevant what happened prior to 2019 in this discussion. That being said, and for anybody else who is probably wondering what on earth is going on here is the 2019 election result which clearly shows where the 6000 Labour votes were lost and to who 👇 2019 View AttachmentIf you substitute the BP for UKIP the result was similar to that of 2015 which split the 'leave' vote. In 2021 there is no alternative to the Conservatives as a leave option, which will lead to no splitting of the vote and by my estimate a 15 point lead. “There is no alternative to The Conservatives as a leave option” We’ve. Already. Left.
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Post by wagsastokie on May 5, 2021 4:03:00 GMT
Have the great people of Hartlepool ever received so much attention? They must be loving this media coverage and rightly so. The times the London gazette and several provincials Sent several coach fulls To report on the hanging of a alleged small French primate engaged in nefarious activities
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Post by RedandWhite90 on May 5, 2021 8:07:07 GMT
I'll give it one more go, and please be my guest to have the last word. My responce on this thread argued that the difference from the 2019 election to the upcoming 2021 by-election purely sees the Brexit Party votes (who are not standing) simply shift the Conservatives purely based on them being a Brexit supporting party and as such show a 17 point lead in the polls. You've then responded with what I feel are completely irrelevant details about 2015 and 2017 as some sort of homage to the bounce that JC received in 2017 and then some dictat about Tony Blair. For me it is irrelevant what happened prior to 2019 in this discussion. That being said, and for anybody else who is probably wondering what on earth is going on here is the 2019 election result which clearly shows where the 6000 Labour votes were lost and to who 👇 2019 View AttachmentIf you substitute the BP for UKIP the result was similar to that of 2015 which split the 'leave' vote. In 2021 there is no alternative to the Conservatives as a leave option, which will lead to no splitting of the vote and by my estimate a 15 point lead. “There is no alternative to The Conservatives as a leave option” We’ve. Already. Left. Good grief. You're absolutely right, we've left and it is now never a topic of conversation and clearly isn't an ongoing factor in how people are currently voting. It is just pure coincidence that based on the polling and the evidence from the last general election that all the people who voted for the single issue Brexit Party are now voting for the Conservative's who 'got Brexit done'. But we'll always have 2017, a fine vintage.
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Post by adri2008 on May 5, 2021 8:13:09 GMT
“There is no alternative to The Conservatives as a leave option” We’ve. Already. Left. Good grief. You're absolutely right, we've left and it is now never a topic of conversation and clearly isn't an ongoing factor in how people are currently voting. It is just pure coincidence that based on the polling and the evidence from the last general election that all the people who voted for the single issue Brexit Party are now voting for the Conservative's who 'got Brexit done'. But we'll always have 2017, a fine vintage. I think a lot of it is how Brexiteers were treated by those who didn't want to leave i.e like they were some sort of thick racist morons who didn't know what was good for them. The left have a problem in general with this, rather than trying to engage/persuade Tory voters, they treat them with utter disdain which is no way to convince someone to vote differently.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 5, 2021 8:23:46 GMT
“There is no alternative to The Conservatives as a leave option” We’ve. Already. Left. Good grief. You're absolutely right, we've left and it is now never a topic of conversation and clearly isn't an ongoing factor in how people are currently voting. It is just pure coincidence that based on the polling and the evidence from the last general election that all the people who voted for the single issue Brexit Party are now voting for the Conservative's who 'got Brexit done'. But we'll always have 2017, a fine vintage. You're coming at it from an angle that suggest none of Labour's improvements in 2017 were due to policy which gave some people hope of a better future, and that those same people are that entrenched in Brexit that they are welded to the Tories in the future. I'm simply suggesting that is disingenuous and voters will come back to Labour if they feel they have something to vote for, under Starmer currently that is not the case. His one tactic of "We're under new management and I'm not Jeremy Corbyn" is failing badly......
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Post by followyoudown on May 5, 2021 9:04:45 GMT
Do you know who Keir Starmer is ? "No idea" maybe she does know after all....
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 5, 2021 9:05:39 GMT
Good grief. You're absolutely right, we've left and it is now never a topic of conversation and clearly isn't an ongoing factor in how people are currently voting. It is just pure coincidence that based on the polling and the evidence from the last general election that all the people who voted for the single issue Brexit Party are now voting for the Conservative's who 'got Brexit done'. But we'll always have 2017, a fine vintage. I think a lot of it is how Brexiteers were treated by those who didn't want to leave i.e like they were some sort of thick racist morons who didn't know what was good for them. The left have a problem in general with this, rather than trying to engage/persuade Tory voters, they treat them with utter disdain which is no way to convince someone to vote differently. I think those defined as "the hard left" (or democratic socialists as I would call them) were fairly pragmatic about Brexit in the main, I voted remain but my take was always if I had to choose between Britain in the EU or a proper democratic socialist Scandinavian type government I would choose the latter every time. But there was a chunk of the party both in the PLP and the CLP (predominantly from metropolitan areas) that were so arrogant in their refusal to respect the referendum it was only going to ever end one way. Political commentators like James O'Brien, the liberal blue tick elite on Twitter in their comfortable bubbles preaching to people up and down the country about what was best for them. I have many friends who are (in most cases were) Labour activists that voted leave that would go back to Labour in a shot if they thought there was something worth voting for, and at the moment you ask a lot of people in Red Wall areas about the party they will say "no different to the Tories, they have no policies, what have they ever done for us" etc. They don't want a bland centrist government as an alternative they want some radical changes to help improve their lives........
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Post by adri2008 on May 5, 2021 9:33:11 GMT
I think a lot of it is how Brexiteers were treated by those who didn't want to leave i.e like they were some sort of thick racist morons who didn't know what was good for them. The left have a problem in general with this, rather than trying to engage/persuade Tory voters, they treat them with utter disdain which is no way to convince someone to vote differently. I think those defined as "the hard left" (or democratic socialists as I would call them) were fairly pragmatic about Brexit in the main, I voted remain but my take was always if I had to choose between Britain in the UK or a proper democratic socialist Scandinavian type government I would choose the latter every time. But there was a chunk of the party both in the PLP and the CLP (predominantly from metropolitan areas) that were so arrogant in their refusal to respect the referendum it was only going to ever end one way. Political commentators like James O'Brien, the liberal blue tick elite on Twitter in their comfortable bubbles preaching to people up and down the country about what was best for them. I have many friends who are (in most cases were) Labour activists that voted leave that would go back to Labour in a shot if they thought there was something worth voting for, and at the moment you ask a lot of people in Red Wall areas about the party they will say "no different to the Tories, they have no policies, what have they ever done for us" etc. They don't want a bland centrist government as an alternative they want some radical changes to help improve their lives........ I leant towards the status quo (i.e remain) but I never had time for the massive level of bureaucratic nonsense which seems to go hand in hand with the EU. The way some people went off after the vote, you'd have thought we were launching an invasion into the European mainland rather than simply leaving what had become a very political entity. The way the EU has handled the vaccinations has certainly shown them in a poor light too and changed a lot of people's mindsets. As for Labour, its balancing radical changes without rocking the boat so much that people think 'no thanks'. It's easy to get the young on board with such things but it's the people with something to lose e.g a home, good job etc that need to be convinced. I've no time for BoJo and southern Lord Snooties but a 'shit or bust' economic strategy as Rayner put it isn't going to persuade people. Labour hasn't had a truly effective leader since Blair.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 5, 2021 9:55:07 GMT
Brexit was very important to working class voters. Labour missed the opportunity of a generation by not enthusiastically backing it. It would have given them an opportunity to present a radical " New agenda for Britain " akin to that of the Atlee government.
I'd like to know what arguments took place in Labour's High command that made Corbyn go back on his deeply held , life long Eurosceptism....I can only think that someone persuaded him that the EU represents Socialism through the backdoor.
Then post result I think those voters were aware that only one party promised to fulfil the result......and then this narrowed down to one person, Boris, when it became clear that May was a deceptive appeaser.
So those voters feel betrayed, to the point where it may be terminal. Why should they vote for a party that doesn't listen to them.
Then couple with that.....a complete lack of understanding of patriotism, which in the UK psyche CAN be held alongside a belief in Royalty AND a desire for fairness, equality etc
PLUS, not liking the veiled accusations of not being good enough, of being thick , being racists.
Plus, I think people are a bit sick of the constant moaning from the left....personified by Corbyn....and he has no TEAM of any quality. In my opinion.
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Post by Cns on May 5, 2021 10:02:56 GMT
Brexit was very important to working class voters. Labour missed the opportunity of a generation by not enthusiastically backing in preference. It would have given them an opportunity to present a radical " New agenda for Britain " akin to that of the Atlee government. I'd like to know what arguments took place in Labour's High command that made Corbyn go back on his deeply held , life long Eurosceptism....I can only think that someone persuaded him.that EU represents Socialism through the backdoor. Then post result I think those voters were aware that only one party promised to fulfil the result......and then this narrowed down to one person, Boris, when it became clear that May was a deceptive appeaser. So those voters feel betrayed, to the point where it may be terminal. Why should they vote for a party that doesn't listen to them. Then couple with that.....a complete lack of understanding of patriotism, which in the UK psyche CAN be held alongside a belief in Royalty AND a desire for fairness, equality etc PLUS, not living the veiled accusations of not being good enough, of being thick , being racists. Plus, U think people are a bit sick of the constant moaning from the left....personified by Corbyn....and he has no TEAM of any quality. In my opinion. Corbyn missed it. Labour would've been better off years ago if David & not Ed was leader.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 5, 2021 10:05:31 GMT
Brexit was very important to working class voters. Labour missed the opportunity of a generation by not enthusiastically backing in preference. It would have given them an opportunity to present a radical " New agenda for Britain " akin to that of the Atlee government. I'd like to know what arguments took place in Labour's High command that made Corbyn go back on his deeply held , life long Eurosceptism....I can only think that someone persuaded him.that EU represents Socialism through the backdoor. Then post result I think those voters were aware that only one party promised to fulfil the result......and then this narrowed down to one person, Boris, when it became clear that May was a deceptive appeaser. So those voters feel betrayed, to the point where it may be terminal. Why should they vote for a party that doesn't listen to them. Then couple with that.....a complete lack of understanding of patriotism, which in the UK psyche CAN be held alongside a belief in Royalty AND a desire for fairness, equality etc PLUS, not living the veiled accusations of not being good enough, of being thick , being racists. Plus, U think people are a bit sick of the constant moaning from the left....personified by Corbyn....and he has no TEAM of any quality. In my opinion. Corbyn missed it. Labour would've been better off years ago if David & not Ed was leader. Probably Except I believe that David was a Europhile, so he would also have had that challenge. I am a bit suspicious of his " smoothness", reminds me a bit of Cleggy. I was listening to David Blunkett recently, he spoke a lot of sense.
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Post by adri2008 on May 5, 2021 10:37:25 GMT
Brexit was very important to working class voters. Labour missed the opportunity of a generation by not enthusiastically backing in preference. It would have given them an opportunity to present a radical " New agenda for Britain " akin to that of the Atlee government. I'd like to know what arguments took place in Labour's High command that made Corbyn go back on his deeply held , life long Eurosceptism....I can only think that someone persuaded him.that EU represents Socialism through the backdoor. Then post result I think those voters were aware that only one party promised to fulfil the result......and then this narrowed down to one person, Boris, when it became clear that May was a deceptive appeaser. So those voters feel betrayed, to the point where it may be terminal. Why should they vote for a party that doesn't listen to them. Then couple with that.....a complete lack of understanding of patriotism, which in the UK psyche CAN be held alongside a belief in Royalty AND a desire for fairness, equality etc PLUS, not living the veiled accusations of not being good enough, of being thick , being racists. Plus, U think people are a bit sick of the constant moaning from the left....personified by Corbyn....and he has no TEAM of any quality. In my opinion. To be fair to Corbyn, he was stuck between the core vote who wanted Brexit and student/younger voters who hated it so he tried some middle ground mishmash which alienated both sets of supporters. He really needed to fully embrace Brexit, accept the result of the referendum and sell it to his huge student following as a necessity but something which could end up being for the good of the UK (which it can be).
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 5, 2021 11:20:33 GMT
Brexit was very important to working class voters. Labour missed the opportunity of a generation by not enthusiastically backing in preference. It would have given them an opportunity to present a radical " New agenda for Britain " akin to that of the Atlee government. I'd like to know what arguments took place in Labour's High command that made Corbyn go back on his deeply held , life long Eurosceptism....I can only think that someone persuaded him.that EU represents Socialism through the backdoor. Then post result I think those voters were aware that only one party promised to fulfil the result......and then this narrowed down to one person, Boris, when it became clear that May was a deceptive appeaser. So those voters feel betrayed, to the point where it may be terminal. Why should they vote for a party that doesn't listen to them. Then couple with that.....a complete lack of understanding of patriotism, which in the UK psyche CAN be held alongside a belief in Royalty AND a desire for fairness, equality etc PLUS, not living the veiled accusations of not being good enough, of being thick , being racists. Plus, U think people are a bit sick of the constant moaning from the left....personified by Corbyn....and he has no TEAM of any quality. In my opinion. To be fair to Corbyn, he was stuck between the core vote who wanted Brexit and student/younger voters who hated it so he tried some middle ground mishmash which alienated both sets of supporters. He really needed to fully embrace Brexit, accept the result of the referendum and sell it to his huge student following as a necessity but something which could end up being for the good of the UK (which it can be). Whatever his view the decision was always going to be one made democratically within the party.......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 5, 2021 11:53:01 GMT
Brexit was very important to working class voters. Labour missed the opportunity of a generation by not enthusiastically backing in preference. It would have given them an opportunity to present a radical " New agenda for Britain " akin to that of the Atlee government. I'd like to know what arguments took place in Labour's High command that made Corbyn go back on his deeply held , life long Eurosceptism....I can only think that someone persuaded him.that EU represents Socialism through the backdoor. Then post result I think those voters were aware that only one party promised to fulfil the result......and then this narrowed down to one person, Boris, when it became clear that May was a deceptive appeaser. So those voters feel betrayed, to the point where it may be terminal. Why should they vote for a party that doesn't listen to them. Then couple with that.....a complete lack of understanding of patriotism, which in the UK psyche CAN be held alongside a belief in Royalty AND a desire for fairness, equality etc PLUS, not living the veiled accusations of not being good enough, of being thick , being racists. Plus, U think people are a bit sick of the constant moaning from the left....personified by Corbyn....and he has no TEAM of any quality. In my opinion. To be fair to Corbyn, he was stuck between the core vote who wanted Brexit and student/younger voters who hated it so he tried some middle ground mishmash which alienated both sets of supporters. He really needed to fully embrace Brexit, accept the result of the referendum and sell it to his huge student following as a necessity but something which could end up being for the good of the UK (which it can be). He should have gone with his conviction
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Post by xchpotter on May 5, 2021 11:53:04 GMT
Do you know who Keir Starmer is ? "No idea" maybe she does know after all.... Mmmm, looks a bit orchestrated to me. Can’t stand her and all of the other political commentators like Peston, Kuenssberg, Bolton and co. They all have this air of arrogance about them as if they know so much in the background, but couldn’t possibly tell a mere mortal. Much preferred the older crowd like John Cole and John Simpson when they had the political correspondent role, always felt there was a degree of class and integrity in their approach as opposed to the gutter sniping, over talking and combative approach we see now.
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